Tell me about Heavy Gear

Heavy Josh · July 08, 2021, 03:15:17 PM

Quote from: Marchand on July 08, 2021, 03:11:18 AM

I'm confused - is there non-lethal dmg or not?

Or does Josh mean there is only one type of damage, and if someone gets hit with a club but not enough to kill them, the GM can rule they're knocked unconscious?

I checked the main rulebook: the only non-lethal weapons are Flashbang and Tear Gas grenades. If you fumble your Health roll against Tear Gas, you take lethal damage. Any sufficiently hard punch can kill.

HappyDaze · July 08, 2021, 05:04:30 PM

Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 08, 2021, 03:15:17 PM
Any sufficiently hard punch can kill.

That sounds like a crap mechanic for a game. How many of us want to play in a world where we have to rewire our brains into thinking your average fistfight between two healthy dudes is a deadly encounter? What's next, tripping and having a ground level fall is likewise high lethality for otherwise healthy adventurer-types?

Pat · July 08, 2021, 05:07:59 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 08, 2021, 03:15:17 PM
Any sufficiently hard punch can kill.
That sounds like a crap mechanic for a game. How many of us want to play in a world where we have to rewire our brains into thinking your average fistfight between two healthy dudes is a deadly encounter? What's next, tripping and having a ground level fall is likewise high lethality for otherwise healthy adventurer-types?

It's not realistic if housecats and falling from a horse aren't deadly to 99% of the population.

But more seriously, it depends on your expectations. If you want grand cinematic brawls, then rules for nonlethal damage make sense. If you want to model it more on the real world, things like concussions are serious business. The reason why this comes up a lot is because this is one the areas where movies have developed a set of conventions that veer far from how the real world works, and a lot of people don't realize that.

HappyDaze · July 08, 2021, 06:24:22 PM

Quote from: Pat on July 08, 2021, 05:07:59 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 08, 2021, 03:15:17 PM
Any sufficiently hard punch can kill.
That sounds like a crap mechanic for a game. How many of us want to play in a world where we have to rewire our brains into thinking your average fistfight between two healthy dudes is a deadly encounter? What's next, tripping and having a ground level fall is likewise high lethality for otherwise healthy adventurer-types?
It's not realistic if housecats and falling from a horse aren't deadly to 99% of the population.

But more seriously, it depends on your expectations. If you want grand cinematic brawls, then rules for nonlethal damage make sense. If you want to model it more on the real world, things like concussions are serious business. The reason why this comes up a lot is because this is one the areas where movies have developed a set of conventions that veer far from how the real world works, and a lot of people don't realize that.

It's also because most games don't have people (PCs or NPCs) stop fighting well before they're "taken out" (dead or unconscious)--which is not a realistic representation for how most fistfights end.

K Peterson · July 08, 2021, 11:50:09 PM

Quote from: Thondor on July 03, 2021, 02:48:25 PM
What do people think it did well? Was the setting or the system what you liked about the game?
Would you play it again? Did you play or run it?

I ran a campaign of Heavy Gear 2E back around 2003. GM'd about a dozen sessions of The Paxton Gambit before it reached its conclusion. It was a lot of fun.

I like both the setting and the system. Silhouette has its flaws, but it's really easy to run. For years I've wanted to return to Heavy Gear - or break out Jovian Chronicles - but I've never had the spark to get that going.

K Peterson · July 08, 2021, 11:52:56 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 07, 2021, 04:22:56 AM
Hey Gearheads! The price for the 1st edition Rulebook on drivethru came way down! I'm going to order myself a copy out of nostalgia!

I guess I came into HG late, because I never had any exposure to the 1st edition. How did it compare to 2E?

Ratman_tf · July 08, 2021, 11:59:29 PM

Quote from: K Peterson on July 08, 2021, 11:52:56 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 07, 2021, 04:22:56 AM
Hey Gearheads! The price for the 1st edition Rulebook on drivethru came way down! I'm going to order myself a copy out of nostalgia!
I guess I came into HG late, because I never had any exposure to the 1st edition. How did it compare to 2E?

I only GMed 1st edition. At this point, I couldn't tell you the differences betwen the editions.

Heavy Josh · July 09, 2021, 12:16:03 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 08, 2021, 03:15:17 PM
Any sufficiently hard punch can kill.
That sounds like a crap mechanic for a game. How many of us want to play in a world where we have to rewire our brains into thinking your average fistfight between two healthy dudes is a deadly encounter? What's next, tripping and having a ground level fall is likewise high lethality for otherwise healthy adventurer-types?

Definitely not "your average fistfight between two healthy dudes".

For a punch, it's a 1 in 10,000 punch that would kill: the defender would have to fumble the roll, and the attacker would have to be optimized for unarmed combat, and max out the roll. But it could happen. So, picture Bruce Lee kicking a mook and snapping the poor guy's neck.

It gets more common when you're using clubs: the first hit might not kill, but it could wound, and that starts a wound spiral that makes the next hit more damaging, and the one after that, etc.

Heavy Josh · July 09, 2021, 12:19:24 AM

Quote from: K Peterson on July 08, 2021, 11:52:56 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 07, 2021, 04:22:56 AM
Hey Gearheads! The price for the 1st edition Rulebook on drivethru came way down! I'm going to order myself a copy out of nostalgia!
I guess I came into HG late, because I never had any exposure to the 1st edition. How did it compare to 2E?

They're basically the same, with a couple of minor skill additions or changes (History got folded into Social Sciences, the TRAVESTY). Some things are clarified slightly. Really almost no changes at all aside from an art upgrade: though some of 1e art is superior, the 2e art is more consistent. Layout is a little better. If you got 2e, you're not really missing much by not having 1e. I think Life on Terranova 1e might be a bit better than the 2e version, but that supplement was all setting and very little game stats.

HappyDaze · July 09, 2021, 12:23:29 AM

Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 09, 2021, 12:16:03 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 08, 2021, 03:15:17 PM
Any sufficiently hard punch can kill.
That sounds like a crap mechanic for a game. How many of us want to play in a world where we have to rewire our brains into thinking your average fistfight between two healthy dudes is a deadly encounter? What's next, tripping and having a ground level fall is likewise high lethality for otherwise healthy adventurer-types?

Definitely not "your average fistfight between two healthy dudes".

For a punch, it's a 1 in 10,000 punch that would kill: the defender would have to fumble the roll, and the attacker would have to be optimized for unarmed combat, and max out the roll. But it could happen. So, picture Bruce Lee kicking a mook and snapping the poor guy's neck.

It gets more common when you're using clubs: the first hit might not kill, but it could wound, and that starts a wound spiral that makes the next hit more damaging, and the one after that, etc.

I real life, you get a lot of hand injuries (some of which can get nasty infections from embedded tooth fragments) from fistfights. Too many idiots don't realize that throwing closed fists at the face and head isn't such a great idea. Of course, the guy blocking like Rocky (i.e., with his face) isn't feeling too great either.

I've never seen a game that cares for details like that, at least not directly. FFG's Star Wars could reflect it if you scored Threat/Despair on a Brawl attack.

Omega · July 10, 2021, 07:55:05 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 08, 2021, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 08, 2021, 03:15:17 PM
Any sufficiently hard punch can kill.
That sounds like a crap mechanic for a game. How many of us want to play in a world where we have to rewire our brains into thinking your average fistfight between two healthy dudes is a deadly encounter? What's next, tripping and having a ground level fall is likewise high lethality for otherwise healthy adventurer-types?

Considering people get beat to death on a regular basis... sounds realistic? (Assuming they dont mean a single punch can kill.)
And as noted before. My great grandfather survived being shot in the head and losing an eye. What killed him many a year later? A 3ft fall off the porch.

Reality really is unrealistic.

HappyDaze · July 11, 2021, 12:07:28 AM

Quote from: Omega on July 10, 2021, 07:55:05 PM
Considering people get beat to death on a regular basis... sounds realistic?

No, it really doesn't. How many RL fights have you been in where one of the fighters died? I can tell you from working in both a hospital ED and triage at a correctional facility that the vast majority of fistfights do not lead to "death on a regular basis" and a game system that points to that being a likely outcome does not "sound realistic" at all.

Heavy Josh · July 11, 2021, 09:50:23 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 11, 2021, 12:07:28 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 10, 2021, 07:55:05 PM
Considering people get beat to death on a regular basis... sounds realistic?
No, it really doesn't. How many RL fights have you been in where one of the fighters died? I can tell you from working in both a hospital ED and triage at a correctional facility that the vast majority of fistfights do not lead to "death on a regular basis" and a game system that points to that being a likely outcome does not "sound realistic" at all.

As I said before, killing an opponent in one hit using martial arts is possible for a highly skilled martial artist, and the opponent is unarmoured, and fumbles a dodge roll. It can happen, but it's much more likely that if someone is seriously hurt or killed, it's from guns or knives.

Silhouette is a fast and lethal system that doesn't pull its punches, so to speak. Getting into a firefight is dangerous. A fistfight is not lethal 99% of the time.