Quote from: Shasarak on July 05, 2021, 01:32:11 AM
Its not the pants that make mom look fat.

Blaming dad does not help the fattiness either.

"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." 

- But Ernie made mistakes, that's the point. Had he not made them, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The interview was a mistake to begin with, the statements he made in there were a mistake, and his attempts at damage control were a mistake, as well. That he probably didn't mean to cause any harm doesn't change that. Like, I'm not a US citizen, so I miss some nuance about US-related topics sometimes - but just his comment alone about how WotC was behaving like some (supposedly cannibalistic?) American Indian tribe, holy shitballs in a blender. Either Ernie's saying stuff like this on purpose, or he needs to be protected from harming himself any further.

Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 02:19:18 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on July 05, 2021, 01:32:11 AM
Its not the pants that make mom look fat.

Blaming dad does not help the fattiness either.

"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." 

- But Ernie made mistakes, that's the point. Had he not made them, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The interview was a mistake to begin with, the statements he made in there were a mistake, and his attempts at damage control were a mistake, as well. That he probably didn't mean to cause any harm doesn't change that. Like, I'm not a US citizen, so I miss some nuance about US-related topics sometimes - but just his comment alone about how WotC was behaving like some (supposedly cannibalistic?) American Indian tribe,

There's been so much bullshit flung around about this interview, and I haven't had the time to comb through it. Anyone got a quote on what Ernie exactly said? Google search turns up paraphrases.

Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 02:19:18 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on July 05, 2021, 01:32:11 AM
Its not the pants that make mom look fat.

Blaming dad does not help the fattiness either.

"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." 

- But Ernie made mistakes, that's the point. Had he not made them, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The interview was a mistake to begin with, the statements he made in there were a mistake, and his attempts at damage control were a mistake, as well. That he probably didn't mean to cause any harm doesn't change that. Like, I'm not a US citizen, so I miss some nuance about US-related topics sometimes - but just his comment alone about how WotC was behaving like some (supposedly cannibalistic?) American Indian tribe, holy shitballs in a blender. Either Ernie's saying stuff like this on purpose, or he needs to be protected from harming himself any further.

All this discussion about how what Ernie said matters is reminding me of the logic behind, "If she didn't wear that dress, then she wouldn't have been raped."

Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 01:23:00 AM

I understand the Pundit's criticism of the Twitter mob, and I understand the annoyance many others  have expressed - but Ernie's bad decision-making should not be the hill many of us choose to die on. FWIW, he reminds me of how Mark Rein-Hagen used to poop on Twitter every couple of weeks, just a few years ago. - Wake me up when this fool actually contributes anything positive to the hobby other than never-ending durr-ama.

To return to an argument I was initially making - the community should be more careful to who it is lending the airtime. Ernie Gygax ain't Christopher Tolkien. The first mistake here is not Ernie saying what he said; it was that he was talking at all. Let's find legit ways for the 60+ crowd in the hobby to contribute in ways that don't require them to whore themselves out to "strip club owner"-type business people. Once we're there, things will fall in place.

I'm the one who posted the list of Ernie's credits. All two of them. Co-authored with his dad. Probably token credits. He's not old TSR. He's not Gary Gygax. His contributions to the hobby are insignificant. He might have a story or two to tell, but that's about it. He has weird friends, and no apparent skill in expressing himself.

And it's a still a witch hunt. Which we should speak up against. As I've said before, the quality of the person should not be a factor. Freedom of speech doesn't have to be defended when someone everyone likes says something everyone agrees with. Freedom of speech must be defended when people we don't like say things we don't agree with. That you speak out against this says volumes about how much you value the basic principle.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 05, 2021, 02:25:54 AM

Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 02:19:18 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on July 05, 2021, 01:32:11 AM
Its not the pants that make mom look fat.

Blaming dad does not help the fattiness either.

"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." 

- But Ernie made mistakes, that's the point. Had he not made them, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The interview was a mistake to begin with, the statements he made in there were a mistake, and his attempts at damage control were a mistake, as well. That he probably didn't mean to cause any harm doesn't change that. Like, I'm not a US citizen, so I miss some nuance about US-related topics sometimes - but just his comment alone about how WotC was behaving like some (supposedly cannibalistic?) American Indian tribe,

There's been so much bullshit flung around about this interview, and I haven't had the time to comb through it. Anyone got a quote on what Ernie exactly said? Google search turns up paraphrases.

Enworld says this, lamentably without the proper timestamps: 

https://www.enworld.org/threads/ernie-gygax-on-new-tsr-wotc-beefs-trademarks-licensees-5e-more.680877/

QuoteThey [WotC] just took as all corporate raiders do the treasures and then tried to make them their own. American Indians did the same thing they would, um, wipe out another tribe many times take the women and children and murder off everything else and leave to make your tribe that much better, room to grow.

No cannibalism, luckily. But still -



Mind you, he's talking about a past (and possibly future) business partner here, someone he is probably in regular exchange with. That's what I'm saying, switch this fool's microphone off.

Quote from: Pat on July 05, 2021, 02:38:13 AMAnd it's a still a witch hunt. Which we should speak up against. As I've said before, the quality of the person should not be a factor. Freedom of speech doesn't have to be defended when someone everyone likes says something everyone agrees with. Freedom of speech must be defended when people we don't like say things we don't agree with. That you speak out against this says volumes about how much you value the basic principle.

Naah, not quite. Assessing that somebody is doing a poor job is not the same as "speaking out against freedom of speech". I'm not infringing Mr Gygax' freedom of speech by saying that I consider his statements unwise. Likewise, I'm not infringing Mr Gygax' rights by choosing not to give spend money on his product, the same way I don't infringe the rights of Pepsi by ordering a Diet Coke.

Gygax needs to do a way better job if he wants to gain prospective customers, plainly and simply. (Like me, for example!) This is also why I disagree that this is - for the most part, at least - a witch hunt. Man's saying stupid shit, man's winning stupid prizes. Now, there are surely people going overboard with their criticism, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong. The idiot repeatedly characterizing business contacts as active business partners, and using racial or war-like language to describe a past business relationship, however, clearly is at fault.

Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 04:20:09 AM

Quote from: Pat on July 05, 2021, 02:38:13 AMAnd it's a still a witch hunt. Which we should speak up against. As I've said before, the quality of the person should not be a factor. Freedom of speech doesn't have to be defended when someone everyone likes says something everyone agrees with. Freedom of speech must be defended when people we don't like say things we don't agree with. That you speak out against this says volumes about how much you value the basic principle.

Naah, not quite. Assessing that somebody is doing a poor job is not the same as "speaking out against freedom of speech". I'm not infringing Mr Gygax' freedom of speech by saying that I consider his statements unwise. Likewise, I'm not infringing Mr Gygax' rights by choosing not to give spend money on his product, the same way I don't infringe the rights of Pepsi by ordering a Diet Coke.

Gygax needs to do a way better job if he wants to gain prospective customers, plainly and simply. (Like me, for example!) This is also why I disagree that this is - for the most part, at least - a witch hunt. Man's saying stupid shit, man's winning stupid prizes. Now, there are surely people going overboard with their criticism, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong. The idiot repeatedly characterizing business contacts as active business partners, and using racial or war-like language to describe a past business relationship, however, clearly is at fault.

It's exactly what you are doing. If you simply said you didn't want to to business with him, that's fine and reasonable. But he's being attacked in ways that are completely out of proportion to what he said. Just look at the Twitter responses, they're completely irrational, and the internet equivalent of a mob with pitchforks and burning torches. And you're defending them.

"Say stupid shit, win stupid prizes" has become one of the rallying cries of those who would erase free speech.

Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 04, 2021, 07:01:48 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.

What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?

Then we have to make a list.

This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.

Ernies "political statement" amounted to saying "there's people who want to play games without modern political indoctrination in them". That's all it was.

"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."

Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.

First: Those politics ARE dumb and they DON'T matter.
However, Ernie never said that.

All Ernie said was a place in his club for "some people who are old fashioned, don't follow modern trends, and may not have concepts of gender identity". Not that those concepts are dumb or don't matter, just that IT'S OK FOR SOME PEOPLE NOT TO THINK AND TALK ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME EVERY DAY. And particularly it's ok for your RPG not to have to be ABOUT those concepts. Or even include those concepts at all, when there's not a good reason to  include them. 

But the response from the Totalitarian left is "No, that's not OK. Everyone MUST think and talk about our cult dogma every moment of every day, in every RPG they play, and if they don't we will try our very hardest to destroy their lives and hopefully drive them to suicide, because we're not quite sure we'd be allowed to murder them with impunity yet... just give us another 3 years or so for that though.."

The main problem with fighting these sociopaths, and what curbs alot of resistance, is that they can, will, and have resorted to violence and even indirect murder, and attempted murder now.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 05, 2021, 01:38:57 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 04, 2021, 07:01:48 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.

What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?

Then we have to make a list.

This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.

Ernies "political statement" amounted to saying "there's people who want to play games without modern political indoctrination in them". That's all it was.

"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."

Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.

First: Those politics ARE dumb and they DON'T matter.
However, Ernie never said that.

All Ernie said was a place in his club for "some people who are old fashioned, don't follow modern trends, and may not have concepts of gender identity". Not that those concepts are dumb or don't matter, just that IT'S OK FOR SOME PEOPLE NOT TO THINK AND TALK ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME EVERY DAY. And particularly it's ok for your RPG not to have to be ABOUT those concepts. Or even include those concepts at all, when there's not a good reason to  include them. 

But the response from the Totalitarian left is "No, that's not OK. Everyone MUST think and talk about our cult dogma every moment of every day, in every RPG they play, and if they don't we will try our very hardest to destroy their lives and hopefully drive them to suicide, because we're not quite sure we'd be allowed to murder them with impunity yet... just give us another 3 years or so for that though.."

The quote is about people who did things.

It's one thing to not talk about gender identity in your games. It's another to put stereotypes as well established facts in your game. "Well this wasn't a political thing to say 30 years ago." can include some very political statements.

Would an extreme help? If you put in your game, "these magic pants are only worn by male characters because women don't wear pants", then you made a political statement, even though that was not considered political 70 years ago. Saying then that similar writing is fine in RPGs is then a political statement. You are saying such people's political actions are not something to be concerned about.

Conservatives constantly assume their overt political statements are apolitical. It's a recurring theme.

Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 03:48:24 PM

Conservatives constantly assume their overt political statements are apolitical. It's a recurring theme.

Progressives like you constantly claim everything is political, which is why so much of the world has turned to shit.

Also, not everyone to the right of Mao is a conservative.

Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 03:48:24 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 05, 2021, 01:38:57 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 04, 2021, 07:01:48 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.

What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?

Then we have to make a list.

This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.

Ernies "political statement" amounted to saying "there's people who want to play games without modern political indoctrination in them". That's all it was.

"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."

Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.

First: Those politics ARE dumb and they DON'T matter.
However, Ernie never said that.

All Ernie said was a place in his club for "some people who are old fashioned, don't follow modern trends, and may not have concepts of gender identity". Not that those concepts are dumb or don't matter, just that IT'S OK FOR SOME PEOPLE NOT TO THINK AND TALK ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME EVERY DAY. And particularly it's ok for your RPG not to have to be ABOUT those concepts. Or even include those concepts at all, when there's not a good reason to  include them. 

But the response from the Totalitarian left is "No, that's not OK. Everyone MUST think and talk about our cult dogma every moment of every day, in every RPG they play, and if they don't we will try our very hardest to destroy their lives and hopefully drive them to suicide, because we're not quite sure we'd be allowed to murder them with impunity yet... just give us another 3 years or so for that though.."

The quote is about people who did things.

It's one thing to not talk about gender identity in your games. It's another to put stereotypes as well established facts in your game. "Well this wasn't a political thing to say 30 years ago." can include some very political statements.

Would an extreme help? If you put in your game, "these magic pants are only worn by male characters because women don't wear pants", then you made a political statement, even though that was not considered political 70 years ago. Saying then that similar writing is fine in RPGs is then a political statement. You are saying such people's political actions are not something to be concerned about.

Conservatives constantly assume their overt political statements are apolitical. It's a recurring theme.

This is because Leftists politicize *everything* for the express purpose of gaining power, influence or advantage. See how that works?

This recent attempt is a very American-flavored variety of pitting races against one another, and building a coalition around anyone and anything viewed as a minority to be against the cultural structure.

This is where the whole statement, "You may not care about politics, but politics cares about you." (thanks Pericles) was re-branded by Trotsky who brought it to its natural conclusion: war.

You may be too ideologically grasped to pull yourself out, and realize you sit among a pile of outliers that are raging for the sake of raging. At some point you'll realize YOU are not one of them. This whole coalition of LGBT+ cannot sustain itself. It's only a useful tool for the real Leftists, who themselves are tools, for Globalist elites to have their dystopian utopia. A peasant utopia for them. A dystopian hell for us.

Yes it starts by activating weirdos to start burning shit down - gaming, comics, movies, pop-culture writ large. While the more politically minded assholes start burning down actual reality - see Portland. While political assholes grasped by this ideology start implementing policies that destroy our capacity to maintain our culture. This isn't rocket science. It only takes immense cognitive dissonance to 1) pretend it's not starting 2) believe it's true 3) pretend YOU won't be part of the purge when it goes down.

Rhedyn - I'm willing to bet there are people over at TBP that would wish you harm simply for posting here on this forum. Evil is transitive, didn't you know? You may not be interested in Evil. Evil is very interested in you.

That's what I heard.

Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 03:48:24 PM

The quote is about people who did things.

It's one thing to not talk about gender identity in your games. It's another to put stereotypes as well established facts in your game. "Well this wasn't a political thing to say 30 years ago." can include some very political statements.

Would an extreme help? If you put in your game, "these magic pants are only worn by male characters because women don't wear pants", then you made a political statement, even though that was not considered political 70 years ago. Saying then that similar writing is fine in RPGs is then a political statement. You are saying such people's political actions are not something to be concerned about.

Conservatives constantly assume their overt political statements are apolitical. It's a recurring theme.

If I did that, it would not be a political statement, it would be a statement regarding a/the culture in my campaign. And I use stereotypes all of the time in my game. But then I do not subscribe to the idea that my RPG milieu has has to be 2020 Seattle or S.F. That said, if that's how you want to run your game, go for it.

But think of the orcs!

Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 02:50:59 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 05, 2021, 02:25:54 AM

Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 02:19:18 AM

Quote from: Shasarak on July 05, 2021, 01:32:11 AM
Its not the pants that make mom look fat.

Blaming dad does not help the fattiness either.

"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." 

- But Ernie made mistakes, that's the point. Had he not made them, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The interview was a mistake to begin with, the statements he made in there were a mistake, and his attempts at damage control were a mistake, as well. That he probably didn't mean to cause any harm doesn't change that. Like, I'm not a US citizen, so I miss some nuance about US-related topics sometimes - but just his comment alone about how WotC was behaving like some (supposedly cannibalistic?) American Indian tribe,

There's been so much bullshit flung around about this interview, and I haven't had the time to comb through it. Anyone got a quote on what Ernie exactly said? Google search turns up paraphrases.

Enworld says this, lamentably without the proper timestamps: 

https://www.enworld.org/threads/ernie-gygax-on-new-tsr-wotc-beefs-trademarks-licensees-5e-more.680877/

QuoteThey [WotC] just took as all corporate raiders do the treasures and then tried to make them their own. American Indians did the same thing they would, um, wipe out another tribe many times take the women and children and murder off everything else and leave to make your tribe that much better, room to grow.

No cannibalism, luckily. But still -



Mind you, he's talking about a past (and possibly future) business partner here, someone he is probably in regular exchange with. That's what I'm saying, switch this fool's microphone off.

What's starting to irk me is that people seems to want to embellish the "record". I've had to correct people twice in this thread by simply asking for clarification and finding out people were making crap up.

And I don't find his actual comparison to be any kind of problem. All people over the course of history tried to kill their neighbors and take their stuff. The only thing "problematic" about his statement is that it used native americans as the subject, and everyone loses their shit over the natives because of identitiy victim politics. Which tracks neatly to the stuff Ernie was talking about.
Again, good on him. The only people getting upset are the types who I really don't give a shit about. I'd be willing to toss him some money if he ever puts out some product that's worth my dime.