Quote from: jhkim on July 02, 2021, 02:38:04 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 11:20:01 AM
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.

If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.

There's a big disconnect if you're saying that people who wear MAGA hats to a game convention are people who want to game without politics. It's a campaign slogan for a politician - so it's explicitly political. The same goes for people who wear Biden shirts, of course. The more direct parallel for a Black Lives Matter shirt would be Blue Lives Matter or All Lives Matter, which are not explicitly for a particular politician, but they are still openly ideological. I think people wearing any of these to a game convention aren't trying to game without politics.

As a practical matter, in today's culture, I don't think it's workable to have MAGA-hat-wearing players and BLM-shirt-wearing players happily mixed at the same convention. Even if they are technically allowed by the organizers, I think they just won't be comfortable gaming together. They're within their rights to express their politics, but it's tilting at windmills to get them to game together.

And that's OK. Not everyone has to go to the same game conventions. They're privately-organized events, not public services. I don't think all conventions need to be the same. If you don't like the organizers at your local convention, go to a different one, or organize your own.

Yes, I specifically mentioned an extreme edge-case in order to provoke a kneejerk response.  It was intentional. 

Quote from: jhkim on July 02, 2021, 02:38:04 PM

Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 11:20:01 AM
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.

If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.

There's a big disconnect if you're saying that people who wear MAGA hats to a game convention are people who want to game without politics. It's a campaign slogan for a politician - so it's explicitly political. The same goes for people who wear Biden shirts, of course. The more direct parallel for a Black Lives Matter shirt would be Blue Lives Matter or All Lives Matter, which are not explicitly for a particular politician, but they are still openly ideological. I think people wearing any of these to a game convention aren't trying to game without politics.

As a practical matter, in today's culture, I don't think it's workable to have MAGA-hat-wearing players and BLM-shirt-wearing players happily mixed at the same convention. Even if they are technically allowed by the organizers, I think they just won't be comfortable gaming together. They're within their rights to express their politics, but it's tilting at windmills to get them to game together.

And that's OK. Not everyone has to go to the same game conventions. They're privately-organized events, not public services. I don't think all conventions need to be the same. If you don't like the organizers at your local convention, go to a different one, or organize your own.

You forgot the third and more popular option.

Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 01:49:51 PM
As much as I like VS's sentiment, the reality is he is preaching blasphemy to the Anointed.

These institutions on a corporate level have made their bet. They will not relent in their positions until they're shown their calculus is off. That means them losing money, and on the fringes of niche-hobbies like TTRPG's that might mean going out of business.

I'll go further. They won't relent even if they are shown that their calculus is off. The true believers of the SJW religion have been treating the TTRPG world as foreign land that they are conquering; going Scorched Earth and destroying everything is acceptable to them because the purpose is to destroy. Subversion is their preferred method, but leaving nothing behind to salvage is also just fine.

This reminds me of an episode of Person of Interest, where an assassin working for the bad guys, controlled by a supercomputer called Samaritan, was assigned a task of killing someone as a threat to national security. She asked to see the evidence, but was denied because her security clearance wasn't high enough - even though she had the highest security clearance. Her questioning this led to HER being temporarily placed on a list of targets.

At the end of the episode, she was back in Samaritan's good graces, and she tracked down her target who was defenseless. He asked her, "Can you consider, just for a moment, the possibility that I am innocent?" She immediately answered, "No" and killed him.

That is the mentality we are dealing with. They will not turn from their ideology EVEN WHEN PROVEN WRONG!

Quote from: Rhedyn on July 02, 2021, 02:19:30 PM

What makes you assume that being conservative or Republican is in general acceptable?

Go resurrect the 605K+ dead due to idiotic "conservative" hatred of the most basic pandemic prevention procedures and then I may concede that your political ideology is not completely monstrous and should be criminalized let alone tolerated at a gaming convention.

Lighten up, Francis...

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 02:34:44 PM

Quote from: Zelen on July 02, 2021, 02:32:29 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on July 02, 2021, 02:19:30 PM
What makes you assume that being conservative or Republican is in general acceptable?

Go resurrect the 605K+ dead due to idiotic "conservative" hatred of the most basic pandemic prevention procedures and then I may concede that your political ideology is not completely monstrous and should be criminalized let alone tolerated at a gaming convention. 

I lol'd.

I can't decide if he's just trying to be ironic, trollish, or if he really is that stupid.

Yes?

Quote from: ScytheSong on July 01, 2021, 10:57:07 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 01, 2021, 09:52:41 PM

Quote from: DocJones on July 01, 2021, 09:07:38 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on July 01, 2021, 04:51:10 PM
Yes. Ernie's business partner is the same Justin LaNassa who posted to Youtube a video of him narrating a wrestling match in a tub of grits between two of his female employees to see who would get a promotion. You can read more about it here.

Hopefully this experience translates into good grappling rules.

I need a lot more context for the grits wrestling to have any kind of opinion about it.

I mean, beyond laughing.

The link has a pretty good summary. J. LaNasa was the owner of a tattoo parlor. As part of a contest to find out who would be "Head Shop Girl" (a putative promotion) he emceed and videotaped a grits wrestling contest between two of his female employees. Which he then posted to YouTube as a promotion for his business. Eight years later, the guy decides to run for office in North Carolina as a Republican. The Republican incumbent sets up a page showing LaNasa and his employees in all their raucous glory, claiming that he wants everyone to know the true morals of his opponent. This is the point at which I first heard of this guy. After he lost the primary (because nekkid wimmen and tattoos is not a  good "family values" stance in Wilmington, NC), he apparently hooked up with Ernie to snipe the TSR trademark.

When his opponent raised the issue, LaNasa also went on at some length about how his opponent was infringing his copyright rights by showing the video in his advertisement (despite it being clearly under the fair use news exemption). Demonstrating his lack of knowledge concerning intellectual property laws years prior to his more recent debacle with intellectual property laws.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 02, 2021, 07:31:16 AM
Anybody got a link to that video of the girls wrestling? 

...For gaming research of course.

You can see part of the video in this ad:

https://portcitydaily.com/wp-content/uploads/CC_TD_LaNasa_01-v3.mp4

Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 02:45:03 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 11:36:01 AM

QuoteI've been tasked as the spokesman for a plurality of traditional and OSR gamers to ask conventions a very important question in light of Gencon and Origins banning the new TSR over Ernie Gygax Jr.'s interview.  Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it's been all over social media lately.

By whom, if I might ask? Sorry, I get twitchy when someone declares they are a 'spokesman'.

That being said:

QuoteI have to ask if your convention will be accepting of non-woke, non-SJW gamers, gamers who reject that particular ideology, who are openly conservative, who are sick and tired of being harassed by the radical-left and labeled racists, bigots, nazis, whatever phobes and ists, white supremacists, etc. just because we don't subscribe to recent, reality-warping theories of gender identity, critical race theory, and anything having to do with cultural Marxism.

As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.

If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.

Hundreds of us (soon thousands, I hope) are sick and tired of being excluded from our beloved hobby by those championing (in name only) inclusion, diversity, and equity.  The culture of RPGs has always been welcoming, decent, and law-abiding, but our past seems to be continually altered by revisionists to make it seem like everyone in Lake Geneva, WI circa 1974 owned slaves!

I agree with this completely. Enough is enough.

QuoteI'm sure you have been around long enough to know our hobby was pretty darn great back in the good old days, even though there have always been and will always be exceptions.  Now... well, we're not so sure.

This ties into my repeated, angry complaint about these johnny-come-latelies who want to paint everything prior to Year Zero as evilracistsexistbigotetcetc.

So yeah, other than my kvetch about who are you speaking for, I agree unreservedly.

Several gamers on various social media platforms (FB, Twitter, YouTube, reddit, MeWe, etc.) said "Yes" when I asked them if they'd like me to reach out to gaming conventions on their behalf.  We don't have an actual organization yet, outside of internet groups, but one might be coalescing...

Thanks for your support!

Fair enough. I won't ask for names because as we've seen before, worthless wokeist bullet stoppers do love to dox and harass people who question them.

Keep in touch. I'm curious to see where this goes.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 02:47:49 PM

Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 01:49:51 PM
As much as I like VS's sentiment, the reality is he is preaching blasphemy to the Anointed.

These institutions on a corporate level have made their bet. They will not relent in their positions until they're shown their calculus is off. That means them losing money, and on the fringes of niche-hobbies like TTRPG's that might mean going out of business.

This weird fetishizing over "D&D" and anything related to the seemingly magical name of Gygax or what people believe are his legacy need to understand that the OSR has already made its claim on that legacy. The *name* of D&D is owned by a moronic corporation staffed by ideological zealots - but the spirit of D&D is with us, the players. You don't *need* them to claim your legitimacy. You already have it. The OSR IS. And so too with any of those that don't feed the beast.

WHY is there this incessant beggar-mentality of trying to claim a place in these institutions and their circus-tents they've stolen from us where they proclaim with every breath, with every cancellation and social media post: "WE DO NOT WANT YOU!"... and yet post after post are the laments of the weepers that bemoan the sad state of their corpse not realizing they're dead.

Since we're talking about religion - I say cast Raise Dead on yourselves, and go play and build your own kingdoms while they burn theirs down. The more attention you give them - the longer this flagellation continues. GM's need to woo people away with *better* games (even if that means using other systems).

Who gives a fuck about GenCon, WotC, TSR, the name Gygax? St. Gary is dead, carry his memory, not his baggage.

What you said makes a lot of sense, and I encourage people to do exactly that... but I also want to fight back against their woke tyranny!

I hear you. I think that that by putting our efforts towards making great games we enjoy (which you are already doing!) we'll be better served in the general efforts. They're burning the house down already. They *can't* create good things.

That said - the cartoon about "building new things" which in subsequently become "great things" which invites the ankle-biters is a powerful meme that happens to be generally true (Strong Men Create Good Times etc. etc.) but that only underscores the real need for curation and standards.<---- THAT is the part where we fail.

Call it gatekeeping, call it having standards, call it being exclusive whatever... the point is if we accept the fact that this mechanism of letting bad actors into our tents who only want to burn the tent down, then why do we put *any* value on their labels for us? Discernment requires discipline and principles. When we drop those we invite the inevitable. That is where we have to reimagine things anew.

So cede the ground we've already lost. Lets not lose time and resources on trying to revive the dead, and lets make great shit together, say I.

I want to talk about GOOD games and gaming in general. I want to talk about cool new shit (and yes, old shit) - I find it hard to shake the feeling we're spending too much time hand-wringing about how the weirdos are defiling OUR traditions. When *we* are the caretakers of our traditions, not them. We define it ourselves. It's not in the Corporate Brand of D&D, it's not in the name Gygax, it's in us. We're on this forum *because* we share gaming interests exclusive of those weirdos. And we don't all agree on everything, but we sure as fuck agree that what we love about this hobby has *nothing* to do with those lunatics on TBP and their corporate overlords which serve up mediocre pap to the fans they hate.

At a certain point, and I think we're there, the momentum of their failure has hit a tipping point. St. Gygax created D&D out of nothing, and there wer controversies and naysayers from the start. There is no reason we can't learn the real lessons and make good shit, (and keep the old shit alive) while watching the WotC inevitably grind itself down. It'll take time for sure, but to me that only means we have nothing to lose that isn't already lost, and we can make gaming great again with lessons learned.

TL/DR - I don't want to let the leeches suck our energies dry slap-boxing with these morons, when we know what we need to do. Because there is *nothing* else left for us to do.

Quote from: Fergurg on July 02, 2021, 03:07:16 PM
I'll go further. They won't relent even if they are shown that their calculus is off. The true believers of the SJW religion have been treating the TTRPG world as foreign land that they are conquering; going Scorched Earth and destroying everything is acceptable to them because the purpose is to destroy. Subversion is their preferred method, but leaving nothing behind to salvage is also just fine.

I'm banking on this. This is precisely why we need to create the thing we want to see. Otherwise we're playing their game. LITERALLY. I say - no. And we need to convert the convertible with GM's outreaching. We need people that have been thinking of getting their hands in the trenches and publishing their own material doing so - to DO IT! This is the best time ever to DIY. We need collaborations between like-minded game-interests to hunker down and prepare to say Fuck Off to the Nay-sayers, and the weirdos that have brought this upon our hobby. And for those not wanting to do those things, you have to be ready to support your fellows that are going to do it.

Complaining is a gross hobby. Gaming with cool TTRPG's is a *way* better option.

Quote from: Fergurg on July 02, 2021, 03:07:16 PMThis reminds me of an episode of Person of Interest, where an assassin working for the bad guys, controlled by a supercomputer called Samaritan, was assigned a task of killing someone as a threat to national security. She asked to see the evidence, but was denied because her security clearance wasn't high enough - even though she had the highest security clearance. Her questioning this led to HER being temporarily placed on a list of targets.

At the end of the episode, she was back in Samaritan's good graces, and she tracked down her target who was defenseless. He asked her, "Can you consider, just for a moment, the possibility that I am innocent?" She immediately answered, "No" and killed him.

That is the mentality we are dealing with. They will not turn from their ideology EVEN WHEN PROVEN WRONG!

And because we know this - WE have the advantage. In fact I'd say if all this complaining on various threads has a shred of value - then we have a responsibility to ourselves, at minimum, to flip the finger at them, the companies we know pushing this garbage, and support the ones that don't. *At minimum*.

We need to kill off our allegiances to "brands" - and remember the spirit of our hobby is what happens at our tables. Not what WotC tells you is D&D. How many editions of "fuck you" do you have to consume before you realize 1) your favorite edition already happened 2) nothing prevents you from playing those 3) you always have the option of creating content for yourself and other likeminded people 4) FIND THOSE PEOPLE. Curation starts at your table. 5) Stop supporting gaming companies that hate you.

It's too easy to simply go with the herd. Especially when that herd is a bunch of parasitical cannibals that are looking to eat you and your money, time and energy in no particular order.

I like the sentiment in the letter and would be down to join a collective that represents non-woke gamers. It's good initiative.

Quote from: Rhedyn on July 02, 2021, 02:19:30 PM
Go resurrect the 605K+ dead due to idiotic "conservative" hatred of the most basic pandemic prevention procedures and then I may concede that your political ideology is not completely monstrous and should be criminalized let alone tolerated at a gaming convention.

What are you, some kind of conspiracy theorist?

Over 120 million Americans died from the Wuhan virus and you want to down play it as only 605K.

Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 05:14:04 PM
We need to kill off our allegiances to "brands" - and remember the spirit of our hobby is what happens at our tables. Not what WotC tells you is D&D.

One of the reasons I decided to ditch the OGL (and access to the d20 SRDs with it) was precisely because I didn't want ANY ties to WotC (I'll have my own open system license, but I've got some different priorities than WotC; short version is I'm okay with greater use of product identity and direct indications of compatibility so long as the content using it is family friendly).

Frankly, I think having to go back to the original myths and legends and consider the mechanics from the ground up instead of just pulling from the built-in mechanics and mythos in the SRD was better for actually getting a system that feels fresher and less like D&D with the serial numbers filed off.

So, yeah, D&D is basically dead to me and my only interest at this point is the academic interest of a competitor. When my system is done I will absolutely get a retailer booth at MAGACon provided its up and running by then.

Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 05:14:04 PM
I'm banking on this. This is precisely why we need to create the thing we want to see. Otherwise we're playing their game. LITERALLY. I say - no. And we need to convert the convertible with GM's outreaching. We need people that have been thinking of getting their hands in the trenches and publishing their own material doing so - to DO IT! This is the best time ever to DIY. We need collaborations between like-minded game-interests to hunker down and prepare to say Fuck Off to the Nay-sayers, and the weirdos that have brought this upon our hobby. And for those not wanting to do those things, you have to be ready to support your fellows that are going to do it.

Complaining is a gross hobby. Gaming with cool TTRPG's is a *way* better option.

Do it yourself doesn't even have to be something to sell.  It just has to be good enough to share with whatever audience you want to share it with.  That's my tack right now with my own system.  Like Chris, I don't want to be attached to anything WotC.  Same impetus, different goals.

Most of the OSR stuff doesn't hit close enough to the mark I want to hit.   I can apply some professionalism to the effort, but I don't have the time to make a product to sell to a wide audience (much less the desire).  Make that realistic assessment of what the product its, I can apply the professionalism where it matters:  Make it comprehensible and accessible to my audience and cheap to communicate it. 

Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 11:20:01 AM
I wrote an open letter to gaming conventions regarding conservative attendance...

https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2021/07/open-letter-to-gaming-conventions.html

Copy/paste...

QuoteOpen Letter To Gaming Conventions


I've been tasked as the spokesman for a plurality of traditional and OSR gamers to ask conventions a very important question in light of Gencon and Origins banning the new TSR over Ernie Gygax Jr.'s interview.  Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it's been all over social media lately. 

I have to ask if your convention will be accepting of non-woke, non-SJW gamers, gamers who reject that particular ideology, who are openly conservative, who are sick and tired of being harassed by the radical-left and labeled racists, bigots, nazis, whatever phobes and ists, white supremacists, etc. just because we don't subscribe to recent, reality-warping theories of gender identity, critical race theory, and anything having to do with cultural Marxism.

As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.

If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.

Hundreds of us (soon thousands, I hope) are sick and tired of being excluded from our beloved hobby by those championing (in name only) inclusion, diversity, and equity.  The culture of RPGs has always been welcoming, decent, and law-abiding, but our past seems to be continually altered by revisionists to make it seem like everyone in Lake Geneva, WI circa 1974 owned slaves! 

I'm sure you have been around long enough to know our hobby was pretty darn great back in the good old days, even though there have always been and will always be exceptions.  Now... well, we're not so sure.

Sincerely,

Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest of Kort'thalis Publishing

Rock on man.  I don't have all the same beliefs as you (I assume!) but damn it if I hate this intolerant Stalinist shit we are being faced with.

Grab your dice and get ready to play; you are welcome to join me No matter who you are, but once you start telling me what to believe politically and to bow down to the cult of identity politics you can fuck right off.

Gay, straight, atheist, religious...all are welcome.  SJW thought police?  Sensitivity reading fascists?  Hit the fucking road. 

Well said venger!