Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 07:08:10 PM
Why do you place legal in quotations. Is it illegal to file for a trademark that someone has let lapsed? No, its not. In fact I'd be willing to bet it happens all the time.

I don't defend EGG's actions, not at all.  If that is indeed how it went down, it was pretty and underhanded. That doesn't meant it wasn't legally acquired. You lied, or exaggerated based on your personal feelings about the subject and then tried to say the other people weren't informed after they commented on your lie.

We might have found common ground if you hadn't gone full progressive troll on everyone.

MB ganked the HeroQuest title from Chaosium, HasBorg or WOTC acquired the rights but let the title slip. So Both Game Zone AND the original Heroquest people both nabbed it back for their own use. Then Hasbro re-acquired the title somehow and released a new edition recently.

Bethsada just recently acquired my old Starfield title since my company had been DOA about 20 years. Hilarious is the part where they scouted me first with questions about the game and company on the sly. Few months ago had another scouting me by pretending to be a fan of a character and asking ALOT of background questions. I suspect this will pop up in something later too.

Yes. TMs laps on a regular basis and get picked up by someone else. What a bunch of THIEVES!

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 30, 2021, 09:27:38 PM

Quote from: ScytheSong on June 30, 2021, 07:52:54 PM
While we're being progressive trolls, is there any truth to the statement I saw elsewhere that one of the things Ernie said in the interview (or its follow-ups) was that women shouldn't role-play (possibly just with him) because their brains can't handle it?

I'd want to see a screencap or archive of it. It's one thing to resist kowtowing to a tiny minority (sorry BCT, but trans people really are a small grouping in the grand scheme of things). It's another to write off half the fucking population as customers.

Considering one of the early players was a girl. I'd lay good odds this is a cultist fabrication.

That or he did day it, but its taken out of context, as usual, somehow.

Remember the old blowup the SJWs claiming proof Gary was SEXIST because women in AD&D had strength limits! Hell some village idiots here were agreeing with them even.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 30, 2021, 09:27:38 PM

Quote from: ScytheSong on June 30, 2021, 07:52:54 PM
While we're being progressive trolls, is there any truth to the statement I saw elsewhere that one of the things Ernie said in the interview (or its follow-ups) was that women shouldn't role-play (possibly just with him) because their brains can't handle it?

I'd want to see a screencap or archive of it. It's one thing to resist kowtowing to a tiny minority (sorry BCT, but trans people really are a small grouping in the grand scheme of things). It's another to write off half the fucking population as customers.

You have nothing to be sorry for.

And to be entirely honest the transgender umbrella has gotten so big that it's probably much bigger than anybody thinks:
https://www.presenttensejournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/tumblr_mx3a40uWuE1rfwfq9o1_1280.jpg

How many of you here can fit under there?

Every person is their own unique gender. The science says so: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5824932/

QuoteThus in our own species there are as many different gender variants as there are individuals, 7 billion plus.

QuoteThus in our own species there are as many different gender variants as there are individuals, 7 billion plus.

Quote from: Spinachcat on June 30, 2021, 09:46:12 PM
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but it seems to me that a dozen OSR guys have far more RPG credits and experience running an OSR (or 5e 3PPP) company than Ernie and they should have sniped the TSR logo instead.

After a little internet search, and ignoring all the recent promised projects because I don't know and don't care, these are the Gygax children's credits:

• Ernie: Lost City of Gaxmoor, Dungeon Geomorphs Set Two: Caves and Caverns
• Luke: Lost City of Gaxmoor, GW1: Legion of Gold

Given their ages at the time of publication, and that all 3 of those book(lets) has Gary Gygax Sr. as a co-author, that means neither Ernie nor Luke have any real RPG credits. Their only connection to old TSR is their last name and maybe some personal reminiscences.

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 07:08:10 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 06:54:06 PM

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 04:19:49 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 03:52:10 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on June 30, 2021, 02:50:27 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PM

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

Exactly!

Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?

Well, instead of trolling, you could explain it to them politely. Who knows what could happen once they understand the conversation. They might even agree with you.

It was already explained. In this thread. By Pundit even, in addition to others. It's not trolling to be frustrated that people are commenting on a topic they have not actually read, right?

But sure. In summary:

Jayson Elliot, who originally launched Gygax Magazine in 2012, and now publishes Top Secret, had the TSR name. He acquired it legitimately in 2011, and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. (and Luke) was involved at the time so he fully understood that trademark acquisition.

So are we clear, to begin with, that this is not a WOTC/Hasbro issue? That's not who had the TSR trademark. They had lost it over a decade ago.

Jeff R. Leason and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. then took advantage of an accidental brief lapse in trademark renewal (apparently they took too long in filing some paperwork) to snipe the mark from Jayson Elliot. You know, rather than calling his friend and saying, "whoops you're about to miss a deadline you might want to fix that" he instead jumped on it and claimed rights to it himself. Even though, again, he had been involved in acquiring the rights originally for Jayson Elliot (and perhaps that's why Ernest knew of the renewal date and perhaps why Elliot didn't get the postcard from the PTO office, but that is speculation).

Ernest then, in a grandiose manner, claimed he was being magnanimous and licensing the name back to Jayson Elliot for $10 a year (under a license he could revoke at any time I believe). And claimed Elliot had agreed, though he had not they were just negotiating.

Jayson Elliot then told Ernest to go F himself, and made it clear he had never agreed. Or to be specific, ""Just one clarification, we never paid any money to them or acknowledged their claim to the trademark. They made an offer which we considered very recently, and chose to reject," Elliot said."

So yeah, you can quibble with the characterization that Ernest and Leason stole the IP from Elliot. It's more like Elliot accidentally dropped his wallet on the ground and Ernest and Leason saw it happen, picked it up, and then tried to sell it back to him as long as they could also use his wallet at any time and might at some point just demand he give them the wallet.

So, they didn't steal it. They legally acquired it. You admit it, good. (and by the way, most of the information you included above, was no where to be found in this thread)

If by "legal" you mean the sniped it at the patent and trademark office, yes. But if by legal you mean they would win in court, almost certainly no. Elliot was still using the trademark in commerce and had been continually doing so for a decade. He can fairly easily challenge the application from Ernest with the PTO, and he will win. It's just costly and takes time. Which is bullshit. He REALLY shouldn't have to deal with his "friend" sniping the trademark from him, particularly since his friend was a participant in Elliot getting the trademark for that company to begin with and all along Ernest claimed to be supportive of Elliot and his company. It was a sleazy backstabbing maneuver by Ernest. And it sure as F has nothing to do with anything WOTC or Hasbro did.

Why do you place legal in quotations. Is it illegal to file for a trademark that someone has let lapsed? No, its not. In fact I'd be willing to bet it happens all the time.

I don't defend EGG's actions, not at all.  If that is indeed how it went down, it was pretty and underhanded. That doesn't meant it wasn't legally acquired. You lied, or exaggerated based on your personal feelings about the subject and then tried to say the other people weren't informed after they commented on your lie.

We might have found common ground if you hadn't gone full progressive troll on everyone.

LOL now I am a progressive because I argued with you? Ah, OK. See I thought you just hadn't followed the topic and were letting your ego get in the way. But now I realize you're just a douchebag. Gotcha.

Let's see, I proved that you were pulling information out of thin air that wasn't in this thread and that you were lying about them stealing. In addition I was at last fairly cordial after your petulant name calling.  You were wrong on both counts and just keep ignoring it, then have the temerity to call other people names. It was your immature behavior that set the tone.  I've seen your posts on this forum before and a progressive troll is exactly what you are. You know it, and its obvious from other users that they know it as well.

As this is straying out of the bounds of roleplaying I'm going to end my involvement in the discussion here so Pundit doesn't have to pull out the ban hammer.

Quote from: Pat on June 30, 2021, 10:56:56 PM
Given their ages at the time of publication, and that all 3 of those book(lets) has Gary Gygax Sr. as a co-author, that means neither Ernie nor Luke have any real RPG credits. Their only connection to old TSR is their last name and maybe some personal reminiscences.

Wow. Thank you Pat.

40+ years, zero credits and now Ernie is the RPG publisher deluxe?

Quote from: Spinachcat on June 30, 2021, 11:54:40 PM40+ years, zero credits and now Ernie is the RPG publisher deluxe?

Most of the time the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

On occasion, the apple is catapulted into the next dimension before hitting the ground.

Quote from: BronzeDragon on July 01, 2021, 12:03:50 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on June 30, 2021, 11:54:40 PM40+ years, zero credits and now Ernie is the RPG publisher deluxe?

Most of the time the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

On occasion, the apple is catapulted into the next dimension before hitting the ground.

That's not really fair. Children don't normally practice the same profession as their parents, and even when they do it's very rare when the child of someone notable matches their parent. Johann Christian Bach is an accomplished composer, but not in the same league as his father, Johann Sebastian. Christopher Tolkien is basically an editor. And those are among the more successful examples. Regression toward the mean, lightning doesn't strike twice... however you want to phrase it.

You can't blame Ernie and Luke Gygax for not being their father. But it's also silly to expect them to be the second coming. Let their own track records speak for themselves.

Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 11:09:44 AM

and then we have MINOR figures

Tom Wham: not really involved with D&D at all --what did he even do?

Hey, you're talking about the guy who made 'Awful Green Things from Outer Space', and 'Snit's Revenge', not to mention stuff like 'Search for the Emperor's Treasure' which made Dragon magazine occasionally not a total waste of money. Well, just that one time. The other time was Temple of Poseidon.

Not sweet shit to do with RPGs including D&D, but the presence of those games in the early TSR era make him a significant figure, at least to me

Also, and back on topic, Mistwell is so goddamn dumb he doesn't even know what the word 'steal' means! That's the funniest thing I've read on this forum since the guy pining away for all those years due to a lack of gay Rust Monsters in modules

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:31:50 PM

1. The person who responded was whoever is in charge of the Giant Lands account, probably Lanata, almost certainly not Ernie who looks like he couldn't be in charge of a jar with a bee in it.

   Thanks for the correction; my memory had slipped and I hadn't gone back to check the receipts.

Quote
2. It was very clearly a statement of disgust at the person DEMANDING that Ernie recite a list of Enforced Speech Statements Of Diversity, OR ELSE.  That was what was going on there, and it was disgusting. It was the disgusting act of a Maoist totalitarian demanding that Ernie recite the Communist Slogan or be sent to the killing fields.

  According to a couple of the gods* on one of the ENWorld threads, that doesn't matter.

Quote from: https://www.enworld.org/threads/tsr3-blames-widespread-pushback-on-wotc.681048/post-8324508Yeah, he's calling her disgusting for one of three things: for being trans, for supporting trans rights, or for asking him to show his support for trans rights. The difference between the three, insofar as it reflects on his character, doesn't seem particularly significant. He's transphobic no matter how you slice it, and particularly nasty about it too.

   *You will find very few human beings in Internet discourse these days. Most of the world is divided between gods--those who have recognized their own divinity and that of others who hold to the correct way--and monsters--those who deny the gods and wallow in deliberate malevolence. Which is which is left as an exercise for the reader.

Quote from: Pat on June 30, 2021, 10:56:56 PM
Given their ages at the time of publication, and that all 3 of those book(lets) has Gary Gygax Sr. as a co-author, that means neither Ernie nor Luke have any real RPG credits. Their only connection to old TSR is their last name and maybe some personal reminiscences.

Both were part of the original gaming/playtest group and helped shape the game into its final form with whatever input Gary got from hands on use with players.

Past that seems like they havent done a whole lot RPG-wise? Have they been playtesters for any other games?

Quote from: yancy on July 01, 2021, 03:17:38 AM
and then we have MINOR figures

Tom Wham: not really involved with D&D at all --what did he even do?

Lets see. Illustrated for TSR and more importantly got his relative, Trampier, to illustrate for TSR. Created about a dozen board games for TSR and others. Also wrote uncredited 90% of the Iron Dragons novel after Estes bailed. Believe he co-founded a little game company but probably wrong on that. Hasnt done much since that am aware of. (addendum: Apparently his last published game was in 2008 or so.)

Games:
Awful Green Things From Outer Space. And two mini-expansions.
King of the Tabletop that was later renamed by a publisher as Kings and Things.
Elefant Hunt
Snits Revenge and Snit Smashing and at least one mini-expansion.
File 13: A game about designing games.
Planet Smashers
Search for the Emperor's Treasure - one of the few of his games I have not seen, but keep hearing of.
Apparently worked on the SimCity CCG
And a bunch of other games.

So what really was said and by who? Because I've got a local player telling me that Ernie really did post something online that was offensive about Trans people.

Worst I could find was apparently this? "There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity."

Which in all honesty is not all that bad or unreasonable. Especially now with the loony fringe of the LGBT community hellbent on antagonizing everyone and severely damaging any progress had been made in getting perople to actually relax and be more accepting.