Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 10:38:28 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:42:38 AM
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words.  I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians  do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant. 

   It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."

Come on, here. Nuance and context do, in fact, exist. You yourself cite Jordan Peterson, who brought nuance back, so to speak. Ernie, however, didn't try nuance, here: He tried to make a bad joke and it backfired, and he did not have any fucking clue how to handle it. He's hardly "Jordan Peterson"-ing anybody, and he's certainly not being "cryptic".

...And that's why I'm saying - and even if you disagree with me on the nuances concerning this specific example, I hope you can agree with me on that - that these old-timers need more protection by the community: Year by year, one of them comes out with a surely well-meant and even heartwarming attempt at a project that, if it actually held what it promised, would be a joy to behold. And, year by year, those projects get nothing short of eviscerated because "grandpa liketh to talk too much".

As Melan pointed out earlier, Choppy the Titless a person that's extremely sensitive about their gender identity is being the MC at GenCon. You want to have a professional relationship with that person, skip jokes that could offend them. They might overreact. - You know, just shut the fuck up about anything not related to your project. Stay, on message, don't talk past projects, don't talk future projects. Filibuster the interview by reading the entire fucking business plan if you have to. Just make the sale. - But there, you get by being prepared. Ernie clearly wasn't prepared. Why wasn't he prepared? He's participating in a promotional event, not in a private conversation. Why does it seem like does have nothing to promote there? That's a mistake, not an error, to quote a certain blue-skinned alien. And mistakes, you have to correct, or others will correct them for you.

Clearly that is the biggest problem: Ernie being clueless and unprepared. He doesn't know how to handle social media or a business. Doesn't make him a bad guy, it just makes him incompetent.

But one thing that should be pointed out: Ernie and many of these other "old-timers" are NOT the fucking main creators and designers of D&D / AD&D. They are minor figures trying to cash in and get a few extra bucks in their retirement, playing on nostalgia.

The main, foundational authors and designers of D&D / AD&D between 1974 and 1997 (WOTC takeover) were:

Gary Gygax
Dave Arneson (only because he was the big idea guy)
David "Zeb" Cook (lots of modules, supplements, help with design)
Tom Moldvay (designer of B/X, several excellent modules)
Aaron Allston (RC author, along with supplements and modules)
Harold Johnson (main editor, wrote modules, ran RPGA, etc.)
Frank Mentzer (BECMI, some modules, RPGA)
Tracy Hickman (Ravenloft, Dragonlance, etc.)

There may be a few more, but those are the "big" guys in my book.

and then we have MINOR figures

Jim Ward: has some credits to his name, but was not in any way instrumental in the development and history of D&D. No one plays MA.
Jeff Dee: did a little art for D&D and the Demigods book back in the day. Not one of the main artists, and has basically no writing credits.
Rob Kuntz: not enough there to make him anything special
Ed Greenwood: sure, Forgoten Realms, Dragon articles and some books, but I didn't really know anything about him until 10 years ago
Tim Kask: was a supporting figure at-best with minimal credits to his name
Tom Wham: not really involved with D&D at all --what did he even do?

and then we have guys who never did much of anything, but claim Old School / TSR credentials, like Ernie.

Quote from: KingCheops on June 29, 2021, 10:53:45 AM

Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 10:38:28 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:42:38 AM
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words.  I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians  do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant. 

   It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."

Come on, here. Nuance and context do, in fact, exist. You yourself cite Jordan Peterson, who brought nuance back, so to speak. Ernie, however, didn't try nuance, here: He tried to make a bad joke and it backfired, and he did not have any fucking clue how to handle it. He's hardly "Jordan Peterson"-ing anybody, and he's certainly not being "cryptic".

...And that's why I'm saying - and even if you disagree with me on the nuances concerning this specific example, I hope you can agree with me on that - that these old-timers need more protection by the community: Year by year, one of them comes out with a surely well-meant and even heartwarming attempt at a project that, if it actually held what it promised, would be a joy to behold. And, year by year, those projects get nothing short of eviscerated because "grandpa liketh to talk too much".

As Melan pointed out earlier, Choppy the Titless a person that's extremely sensitive about their gender identity is being the MC at GenCon. You want to have a professional relationship with that person, skip jokes that could offend them. They might overreact. - You know, just shut the fuck up about anything not related to your project. Stay, on message, don't talk past projects, don't talk future projects. Filibuster the interview by reading the entire fucking business plan if you have to. Just make the sale. - But there, you get by being prepared. Ernie clearly wasn't prepared. Why wasn't he prepared? He's participating in a promotional event, not in a private conversation. Why does it seem like does have nothing to promote there? That's a mistake, not an error, to quote a certain blue-skinned alien. And mistakes, you have to correct, or others will correct them for you.

Ernie can stop talking about his opinion on gender identity when these freaks stop endlessly publicly pushing their mental deficiencies on the rest of us.  You want to hang out with Buffalo Bill fine you're allowed to.  The rest of us are tired of hearing about it and are starting to make our voices heard.

"Don't try and shove your agenda down my throat unless you're prepared to enter my magical realm."

Thankfully, I've only had to use that club once and the player in question immediately reeled it back in. Smart move on their part.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 29, 2021, 11:45:34 AM

Quote from: KingCheops on June 29, 2021, 10:53:45 AM

Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 10:38:28 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:42:38 AM
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words.  I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians  do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant. 

   It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."

Come on, here. Nuance and context do, in fact, exist. You yourself cite Jordan Peterson, who brought nuance back, so to speak. Ernie, however, didn't try nuance, here: He tried to make a bad joke and it backfired, and he did not have any fucking clue how to handle it. He's hardly "Jordan Peterson"-ing anybody, and he's certainly not being "cryptic".

...And that's why I'm saying - and even if you disagree with me on the nuances concerning this specific example, I hope you can agree with me on that - that these old-timers need more protection by the community: Year by year, one of them comes out with a surely well-meant and even heartwarming attempt at a project that, if it actually held what it promised, would be a joy to behold. And, year by year, those projects get nothing short of eviscerated because "grandpa liketh to talk too much".

As Melan pointed out earlier, Choppy the Titless a person that's extremely sensitive about their gender identity is being the MC at GenCon. You want to have a professional relationship with that person, skip jokes that could offend them. They might overreact. - You know, just shut the fuck up about anything not related to your project. Stay, on message, don't talk past projects, don't talk future projects. Filibuster the interview by reading the entire fucking business plan if you have to. Just make the sale. - But there, you get by being prepared. Ernie clearly wasn't prepared. Why wasn't he prepared? He's participating in a promotional event, not in a private conversation. Why does it seem like does have nothing to promote there? That's a mistake, not an error, to quote a certain blue-skinned alien. And mistakes, you have to correct, or others will correct them for you.

Ernie can stop talking about his opinion on gender identity when these freaks stop endlessly publicly pushing their mental deficiencies on the rest of us.  You want to hang out with Buffalo Bill fine you're allowed to.  The rest of us are tired of hearing about it and are starting to make our voices heard.

"Don't try and shove your agenda down my throat unless you're prepared to enter my magical realm."

Thankfully, I've only had to use that club once and the player in question immediately reeled it back in. Smart move on their part.

I had to use it a few times when I was running games at my university.  One was a Korean who was obsessed with Hitler and Nazis.  Two were law school guys who had piles of mental/social issues that made playing with them very hard.  The other big one that sticks out was this one young lady who I'm not sure exactly what happened to her in her past but she insisted on adding twisted sex stuff to every game even when the rest of us made it clear we didn't want that.

This latest gender craze is just an easy way for damaged individuals like these to score points and gain social acceptance/approval.  Apart from the Korean Nazi I don't know if I'd be allowed to kick them out of the games at the club anymore.

Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 11:09:44 AMClearly that is the biggest problem: Ernie being clueless and unprepared. He doesn't know how to handle social media or a business. Doesn't make him a bad guy, it just makes him incompetent.

[...]

But one thing that should be pointed out: Ernie and many of these other "old-timers" are NOT the fucking main creators and designers of D&D / AD&D. They are minor figures trying to cash in and get a few extra bucks in their retirement, playing on nostalgia.

Well said! This is also why I pull no punches with them. They're promoting their brands with an unearned sense of elitism.
That would be tolerable, to a point, if they delivered on their lofty promises. But they only rarely do.
The market is made by folks who have way less exposure - because they focus on actually getting stuff done.

I'd rather roll dice with Ernie or Frank, than with these modern social justice butt-kissers.

That I have seen, Ernie has not actually said that he hates LGBT people, or that they are evil, or that he doesn't want them in the hobby, or anything along those lines anywhere that I've noticed.

ALL that he said in that interview is that there's no reason why every single gaming company should need to obsess over gender identity issues in their games. Which is absolutely true.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:13:40 PM
That I have seen, Ernie has not actually said that he hates LGBT people, or that they are evil, or that he doesn't want them in the hobby, or anything along those lines anywhere that I've noticed.

ALL that he said in that interview is that there's no reason why every single gaming company should need to obsess over gender identity issues in their games. Which is absolutely true.

  It seems that the real inflection point was on Twitter, when someone tried to pressure him into affirming 'trans men are men, trans women are women, and trans lives matter' after he'd explicitly denounced bigotry, and his response was "You are disgusting," which has been read as a reaction that poster's trans identity rather than the pressure.

Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM

I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here.  You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types. 

Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly  not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.

The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.

The only power they have is because people like you warn others to be afraid of them and do what they demand, and not stand up to them.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on June 29, 2021, 02:16:54 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:13:40 PM
That I have seen, Ernie has not actually said that he hates LGBT people, or that they are evil, or that he doesn't want them in the hobby, or anything along those lines anywhere that I've noticed.

ALL that he said in that interview is that there's no reason why every single gaming company should need to obsess over gender identity issues in their games. Which is absolutely true.

  It seems that the real inflection point was on Twitter, when someone tried to pressure him into affirming 'trans men are men, trans women are women, and trans lives matter' after he'd explicitly denounced bigotry, and his response was "You are disgusting," which has been read as a reaction that poster's trans identity rather than the pressure.

1. The person who responded was whoever is in charge of the Giant Lands account, probably Lanata, almost certainly not Ernie who looks like he couldn't be in charge of a jar with a bee in it.

2. It was very clearly a statement of disgust at the person DEMANDING that Ernie recite a list of Enforced Speech Statements Of Diversity, OR ELSE.  That was what was going on there, and it was disgusting. It was the disgusting act of a Maoist totalitarian demanding that Ernie recite the Communist Slogan or be sent to the killing fields.

Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 10:38:28 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:42:38 AM
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words.  I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians  do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant. 

   It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."

Come on, here. Nuance and context do, in fact, exist. You yourself cite Jordan Peterson, who brought nuance back, so to speak. Ernie, however, didn't try nuance, here: He tried to make a bad joke and it backfired, and he did not have any fucking clue how to handle it. He's hardly "Jordan Peterson"-ing anybody, and he's certainly not being "cryptic".

That wasn't the comparison. Oggsmash was comparing you to the the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen.

Which seems accurate. Ernie Gygax did not say what you said he did. You completely changed his words, but presented it as a straightforward summary. That's what people are objecting to.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM

Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here.  You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types

Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly  not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.

The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.

I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.

Ah OK, another case of someone not really thinking about their Twitter. It's an awful form of communication. If you are perceived as conservative and say something that can be construed as a Nazi-ish reply to someone, it is interpreted as that.

Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM

Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here.  You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types

Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly  not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.

The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.

I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.

That's an interesting definition of success you got there.

Pundit's remark on the 'Do the Struggle Session Recitation' tweet is on point. Forced affirmation will not create acceptance.

Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM

I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.

Any idea why? I have a theory, but I'm curious as to your thoughts.

Quote from: shoplifter on June 29, 2021, 04:10:52 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM

I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.

Any idea why? I have a theory, but I'm curious as to your thoughts.

Is it because celebrations of reactionary conservative politics is generally kind'of F'd up?