The Twitter D&D-SJW blood-craze over a passing comment from a 90 minute interview with Ernie Gygax is forcing me into the uncomfortable position of having to defend the Gygax Clan's version of Fredo.
I saw a lot being said about this: a lot of righteous indignation and emotion. So much so that I reread the interview transcript. I had not in face missed anything.
My second thought was I should check therpgsite for some actual analysis. Sadly, it's getting harder and harder to find real reasoning about things these days...it's all reactionary and puritanical in outlook.
Looking forward to this video...
This dumbass kerfluffle has been all over the Facebook groups and doesn't increase the fun of RPGs one fucking bit.
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 27, 2021, 01:53:54 PM
This dumbass kerfluffle has been all over the Facebook groups and doesn't increase the fun of RPGs one fucking bit.
Does Facebook improve the fun of anything one bit? Serious question, because I haven't touched Facebook since 2011, and I don't think I'm missing anything worthwhile.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 27, 2021, 01:57:37 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 27, 2021, 01:53:54 PM
This dumbass kerfluffle has been all over the Facebook groups and doesn't increase the fun of RPGs one fucking bit.
Does Facebook improve the fun of anything one bit? Serious question, because I haven't touched Facebook since 2011, and I don't think I'm missing anything worthwhile.
Honestly, I'm seeing a lot of good content being produced by individuals in the Traveller groups, the Cepheus Engine groups, the Maps groups, and the OSR groups - but this latest bullshit has overtaken A LOT of the OSR groups.
I think we've reached the political inversion point in rpgs. All that matters now is whether the people in a company think and say the right things now. It's like people don't want the product doesn't matter anymore. Battle lines are being drawn up over a company that hasn't produced so much as a postcard. Can't we go back to waiting until they actually make something and then decide if it's any good?
Quote from: Almost_Useless on June 27, 2021, 02:39:36 PM
I think we've reached the political inversion point in rpgs. All that matters now is whether the people in a company think and say the right things now. It's like people don't want the product doesn't matter anymore. Battle lines are being drawn up over a company that hasn't produced so much as a postcard. Can't we go back to waiting until they actually make something and then decide if it's any good?
That's because many of those braying don't actually play RPGs.
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 27, 2021, 01:53:54 PM
This dumbass kerfluffle has been all over the Facebook groups and doesn't increase the fun of RPGs one fucking bit.
This is what blows me away. If there are real players in the outrage mob, they have not done a single thing with all of their energy that makes the game more fun.
I cannot believe how much discussion and energy is expended on this stuff via a vis the actual game.
I play for fun, period. I really wonder if their silence during games about world hunger makes them somehow complicit with starving babies, by their measure.
Quote from: Dapig on June 27, 2021, 01:15:50 PM
I saw a lot being said about this: a lot of righteous indignation and emotion. So much so that I reread the interview transcript. I had not in face missed anything.
My second thought was I should check therpgsite for some actual analysis. Sadly, it's getting harder and harder to find real reasoning about things these days...it's all reactionary and puritanical in outlook.
Looking forward to this video...
Hope you found it helpful.
As a knee jerk reaction I wanted to support this just to have another company out there that won't cave to the woke mob. Unfortunately I'm not seeing them producing quality content any time soon.
Quote from: Almost_Useless on June 27, 2021, 02:39:36 PM
I think we've reached the political inversion point in rpgs. All that matters now is whether the people in a company think and say the right things now. It's like people don't want the product doesn't matter anymore. Battle lines are being drawn up over a company that hasn't produced so much as a postcard. Can't we go back to waiting until they actually make something and then decide if it's any good?
"Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark ... "
Or roll dice, apparently.
I think WotC is in for a rude surprise if they're shutting the door on everyone but the Moral Busybody crowd. Marvel pandered to them, and now Marvel can't sell toilet paper in a diarrheic outbreak. The woke crowd don't spend money on the hobby they invade and destroy. You will find more people discussing RPGs (and by "discussing RPGs" I mean policing them for wrongthink) than you ever will playing them if these people have their way. And they sure as shit won't actually buy the rules.
They finally found a wedge to publicly come after old-school games, like a full-court press, and start tearing down Gary Gygax, and his legacy.
Get your PDFs and Print On Demand books, boyos, because it'll all be gone soon.
The woke mob is at the wall.
Oh, and Pundit? If Ernie's Fredo, what the fuck does that make you? Moe Green? Hyman Roth? No - it's Senator Geary. Yeah, there you go.
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 27, 2021, 05:58:08 PM
I think WotC is in for a rude surprise if they're shutting the door on everyone but the Moral Busybody crowd. Marvel pandered to them, and now Marvel can't sell toilet paper in a diarrheic outbreak. The woke crowd don't spend money on the hobby they invade and destroy.
We've discussed "woke" kickstarters that have brought in money.
Of course, funding a kickstarter and selling a book on a shelf are two very different things.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 27, 2021, 06:00:52 PM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 27, 2021, 05:58:08 PM
I think WotC is in for a rude surprise if they're shutting the door on everyone but the Moral Busybody crowd. Marvel pandered to them, and now Marvel can't sell toilet paper in a diarrheic outbreak. The woke crowd don't spend money on the hobby they invade and destroy.
We've discussed "woke" kickstarters that have brought in money.
Of course, funding a kickstarter and selling a book on a shelf are two very different things.
They swap money around like pogs. A closed, entirely incestuous economy isn't really an economy. Saying woke KS' still draw money is like saying there's no unemployment in North Korea.
Quote from: Almost_Useless on June 27, 2021, 02:39:36 PMI think we've reached the political inversion point in rpgs. All that matters now is whether the people in a company think and say the right things now.
I would suggest, with some cautious optimism, that this is an aspect less of actual RPGs and their play than of the online RPG discussion community.
Based on posts I'm seeing on MEWE, GenCon has banned the new TSR.
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 27, 2021, 05:58:08 PM
Get your PDFs and Print On Demand books, boyos, because it'll all be gone soon.
The woke mob is at the wall.
I just made sure I had downloads of all my TSR-era content from DTRPG ... just in case. ;D
NuTSR seems inconsistent and unreliable, but the wrath of the cultists appears focused on failure to make proper obeisance to the Spirit of the Age. I think I'm staying out of this skirmish. :D
What did he actually say? Does anyone have a transcript or link to the interview in question?
Quote from: mightybrain on June 27, 2021, 07:56:13 PM
What did he actually say? Does anyone have a transcript or link to the interview in question?
I'm not even 100% clear on what exactly was said that was offensive. As far as I can tell, the contentious part was-
"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."
I mean, is he laughing at the idea of gender identity? Or having it? That it's wrong or right or stupid? I'm not sure.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 27, 2021, 08:09:52 PM
Quote from: mightybrain on June 27, 2021, 07:56:13 PM
What did he actually say? Does anyone have a transcript or link to the interview in question?
I'm not even 100% clear on what exactly was said that was offensive. As far as I can tell, the contentious part was-
"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."
I mean, is he laughing at the idea of gender identity? Or having it? That it's wrong or right or stupid? I'm not sure.
Yup. That was it. That one-second phrase with no real context and no actual condemnation per se was what set off the entire Twitter SJW crowd, who are clearly missing Donald Trump too much and desperate for people to be outraged with.
Tim Kask:
"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.
But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry. Probably more than that, I don't believe that there's a quarter of the gaming industry that still are the neanderthals that he would make us out to be.
That's another thing. This whole thing has brought the OSR (the old school revival) into serious disrepute. Now there are some little Karens going on some of the social media and painting with the same brush all of us that were there back then based on the stupid ass sh*t that Ernie just said. No. We weren't all like that. And we aren't all like that now. He's a troll, a troglodyte, a neanderthal, if he really means that. It's a foolish person that doesn't wet his finger once in a while and feel the wind shift.
Now there've been claims in a couple of posts, one of which is by Ernie, about how the stalwarts, the old TSR are flocking to the banner. Bullsh*t....
... There is no one of the creative side of TSR from the early days involved with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum. No one. Not one creative person. No matter who might be claiming what, they simply do not have the credentials. Being named DiMaggio does not mean you can hit a lot of home runs. Or that you even hit any home runs ....
... Just because you say you're TSR doesn't mean you are."
Commenting on Tim Kask, not direct at Mistwell.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 27, 2021, 09:14:34 PM
Tim Kask:
"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.
But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry.
*Citation needed*
QuoteProbably more than that, I don't believe that there's a quarter of the gaming industry that still are the neanderthals that he would make us out to be.
That's another thing. This whole thing has brought the OSR (the old school revival) into serious disrepute. Now there are some little Karens going on some of the social media and painting with the same brush all of us that were there back then based on the stupid ass sh*t that Ernie just said. No. We weren't all like that. And we aren't all like that now. He's a troll, a troglodyte, a neanderthal, if he really means that. It's a foolish person that doesn't wet his finger once in a while and feel the wind shift.
Anyone who gets their panties in a bunch over pronouns should fold it twice and stuff it where the sun don't shine.
QuoteNow there've been claims in a couple of posts, one of which is by Ernie, about how the stalwarts, the old TSR are flocking to the banner. Bullsh*t....
... There is no one of the creative side of TSR from the early days involved with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum. No one. Not one creative person. No matter who might be claiming what, they simply do not have the credentials. Being named DiMaggio does not mean you can hit a lot of home runs. Or that you even hit any home runs ....
... Just because you say you're TSR doesn't mean you are."
That I can agree with. Until and if this nu-nu-TSR puts out any product, it's all just a lot of hot air, twitter drama, and empty bullshit.
There is an opportunity for the "new" TSR
The Lake Geneva Con they advertised
Make that a true "old school" convention. Now that Garycon is basically another WOTC woke fest, make the new convention an open invitation to adult, rational people, who want to game and have fun. Invite every designer or writer who was dogpiled, banned, cancelled, whatever. It could be year zero for getting things back on track.
they do that, I am there
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 27, 2021, 09:33:01 PM
Commenting on Tim Kask, not direct at Mistwell.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 27, 2021, 09:14:34 PM
Tim Kask:
"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.
But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry.
*Citation needed*
https://youtu.be/Fe34PFuwwn4 (https://youtu.be/Fe34PFuwwn4) Starts around 44:10.
Quote from: Red Death on June 27, 2021, 10:13:17 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 27, 2021, 09:33:01 PM
Commenting on Tim Kask, not direct at Mistwell.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 27, 2021, 09:14:34 PM
Tim Kask:
"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.
But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry.
*Citation needed*
https://youtu.be/Fe34PFuwwn4 (https://youtu.be/Fe34PFuwwn4) Starts around 44:10.
I think Ratman was wanting a citation that showed the 3/4 comment by Kask was actually correct.
Quote from: moonsweeper on June 27, 2021, 10:25:38 PM
Quote from: Red Death on June 27, 2021, 10:13:17 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 27, 2021, 09:33:01 PM
Commenting on Tim Kask, not direct at Mistwell.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 27, 2021, 09:14:34 PM
Tim Kask:
"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.
But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry.
*Citation needed*
https://youtu.be/Fe34PFuwwn4 (https://youtu.be/Fe34PFuwwn4) Starts around 44:10.
I think Ratman was wanting a citation that showed the 3/4 comment by Kask was actually correct.
3/4 of the gaming industry that cares what someone on twitter thinks maybe.
So whats that, a half of a half percent?
Quote from: moonsweeper on June 27, 2021, 10:25:38 PM
Quote from: Red Death on June 27, 2021, 10:13:17 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 27, 2021, 09:33:01 PM
Commenting on Tim Kask, not direct at Mistwell.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 27, 2021, 09:14:34 PM
Tim Kask:
"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.
But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry.
*Citation needed*
https://youtu.be/Fe34PFuwwn4 (https://youtu.be/Fe34PFuwwn4) Starts around 44:10.
I think Ratman was wanting a citation that showed the 3/4 comment by Kask was actually correct.
Yes. That is where I intentionally broke the quote.
Let them come for the OSR.
Best thing for the OSR is more free publicity.
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 27, 2021, 09:34:58 PM
There is an opportunity for the "new" TSR
The Lake Geneva Con they advertised
When did they advertise that?
Anyone think they have the funds & staff to pull it off?
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 27, 2021, 09:34:58 PM
Make that a true "old school" convention. Now that Garycon is basically another WOTC woke fest, make the new convention an open invitation to adult, rational people, who want to game and have fun. Invite every designer or writer who was dogpiled, banned, cancelled, whatever. It could be year zero for getting things back on track.
I've talked about this before. As everything in society has become more polarized in the culture war, as has occured in our hobby, it only makes sense to have segregated conventions.
RainbowCon vs. STFUandRollCon
Or might as well call it TrumpGameCon and be done with it.
Being a non-native English speaker, I would like to say two things:
1. Very much like the Witcher, I'm a friend of humanity. And CSD parties were the very, very BEST parties, back in college. Still so, dear LGBTQIA*-BIPOC-FAFA folks, my ability to celebrate your choices comes and goes with my ability to pronounce your names. Like, for fuck's sake: Four letters, sure. Six letters, still okay. But sixTEEN letters? Come on, fellow hydrohomies. Simplify.
2. Why is it always a "he who smelt it, dealt it"-situation with these gay-mocking oldtimers? - I see some well-aged Sexychub, sporting le meticulously-kept mustache, hands and cheeks as rosy as the bottom of a Disney Princess, and wearing some rainbow shirt on top of that, joking about how 'em sixteen-letter folks are supposedly invading his playground. --- Yeah. Had he not talked, I would kind of have assumed that they quite frequently do. Now, given that the gentleman has to - talk, I mean -, I'm not precisely hearing "postmodernity is for sissies". I'm hearing, slight lisp included: "More one-eyed snakes have spit on this mullet than on the corpse of Ragnar Lothbrok".
Like, even the thumbnail for the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd5WHCeLTIo) borders on wrongful appropriation of LGBTQ culture. - You tell me how the last gay person you encountered made you feel, Sir! Be descriptive.
Quote from: JeffB on June 27, 2021, 07:21:31 PM
Based on posts I'm seeing on MEWE, GenCon has banned the new TSR.
Yes they did. And this, urm,
person is, apparently, GenCon's "Community Manager".
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/781454158132674580/858961561393561620/unknown.jpeg)
I think it's probably accurate to say that Ernie alienated 75% of the RPG "INDUSTRY".
But the "industry" is not the hobby.
Quote from: Melan on June 28, 2021, 03:29:29 AM
Quote from: JeffB on June 27, 2021, 07:21:31 PM
Based on posts I'm seeing on MEWE, GenCon has banned the new TSR.
Yes they did. And this, urm, person is, apparently, GenCon's "Community Manager".
Holy fuck, self termed "super villain" as "Community Manager"?
Now I just need Happydaze to come along and brush it all off as a conspiracy theory. :o
What a mess.
But in a way its karma for their antics at Gary Con a few years back possibly when they bent knee then to the cults demands. Nor here they are under fire and is anyone surprised? It was inevitable the cult of crazies would dig up something sooner or later and tear them down. And of course all the woke loons are falling all over themselves virtue signalling who can demonize them the most.
Also every time any more Kask opens his mouth my opinion of him diminishes that much more. Now Im starting to guess what Gary was possibly meaning about Kask way back if this sort of behavior goes far back.
As for WokeCon. Well thanks for saving me money as now I can consider real conventions instead of trash.
Quote from: Omega on June 28, 2021, 07:06:00 AM
Also every time any more Kask opens his mouth my opinion of him diminishes that much more. Now Im starting to guess what Gary was possibly meaning about Kask way back if this sort of behavior goes far back.
Agree on Tim Kask. To be as generous as possible, he comes across as very full of himself in almost every thing he writes.
What did Gary Gygax say?
What did Kask say that Gary had issue with? Kask seems like an assclown to me.
I used to go to GenCon nearly every year. They will not receive another penny from me.
Looks like Rob Kuntz might have just made himself a target ...
https://www.enworld.org/threads/companies-freelancers-distance-themselves-from-the-new-tsr.680974/page-10#posts (https://www.enworld.org/threads/companies-freelancers-distance-themselves-from-the-new-tsr.680974/page-10#posts)
So..saying you prefer to cater to people not obsessed with gender identity is now a basic fatwa on all modern society? I do have concerns for his endeavor, as people who are considered "hatemongers" (which looks more and more like anyone who will not take a knee and swear fealty to a cause) tend to be hounded to the point they can be denied access to banking/loans/essentially the right to live in society.
At this point, I would consider buying something from his new group if all they did was print pages and staple them together and sold them. Hell I might go as far as to just buy a download of pages saved in word. Banning from a con for just saying what a SHITLOAD of gamers already think (and no matter political thoughts, alphabet loyalty or what every, no way do more than less than a percent of gamers - people actually buying and playing rpgs - give a great deal of thought to gender identity issues in their games.).
I do have to laugh that a.... person... self identifies as a damned super villain. Can not make this shit up.
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 28, 2021, 04:07:37 AM
I think it's probably accurate to say that Ernie alienated 75% of the RPG "INDUSTRY".
But the "industry" is not the hobby.
Right. Recently Ethan Van Sciver was attacked by Scott Kurtz about endorsing his own product. Kurtz intimated that EVS couldn't get a fellow industry creator to endorse his product (that's not what happened at all). They totally miss the point that he doesn't want to be a part of "their" industry. They've hijacked it, they can have it and watch it slowly burn to the ground as these locusts move on to their next target.
Some of the reaction is also about the association with LeNasa (https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2021/06/latest-tsr-justin-lanasa-screenshot.html?fbclid=IwAR06DA_HhAYmm6RSxi2zdt_8VTAW6Y2ltpb3OISQk4PbLbew0M-6kMaDmsQ). And then some more of it is about the kickstarters which have not delivered after being 5 years late, make constant excuses for that, and attack anyone who calls us on their shit (including that "no amount of effort" post he made on kickstarter) instead of owning up to it. And then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
It's a combination of "We don't want a certain type of gamers if their politics is different than ours," and "we don't want anyone who doesn't worship Gygax," and "we employ people who have a lot of shady shit in their backgrounds and engage in some shady business ourselves," and "we don't hold up our end of bargains when doing business with gamers," and "we keep putting our feet in our mouths and have too much ego to really ever apologize and own up to that, but we will half-ass an apology because we want your cash."
That is a combination of a dumpster fire. Y'all can pretend this is just about one thing, but it's about so many things that should make you back away slowly from this company.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on June 28, 2021, 08:49:59 AM
Looks like Rob Kuntz might have just made himself a target ...
https://www.enworld.org/threads/companies-freelancers-distance-themselves-from-the-new-tsr.680974/page-10#posts (https://www.enworld.org/threads/companies-freelancers-distance-themselves-from-the-new-tsr.680974/page-10#posts)
Looks like Ernie apologized. Time for the piranhas to strip the flesh from his bones.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 28, 2021, 10:29:48 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on June 28, 2021, 08:49:59 AM
Looks like Rob Kuntz might have just made himself a target ...
https://www.enworld.org/threads/companies-freelancers-distance-themselves-from-the-new-tsr.680974/page-10#posts (https://www.enworld.org/threads/companies-freelancers-distance-themselves-from-the-new-tsr.680974/page-10#posts)
Looks like Ernie apologized. Time for the piranhas to strip the flesh from his bones.
Oh god yes! The Big Purple crowd took all of about 10 seconds before they started in with, "That's not an apology and it's not good enough!"
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AM
Some of the reaction is also about the association with LeNasa (https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2021/06/latest-tsr-justin-lanasa-screenshot.html?fbclid=IwAR06DA_HhAYmm6RSxi2zdt_8VTAW6Y2ltpb3OISQk4PbLbew0M-6kMaDmsQ). And then some more of it is about the kickstarters which have not delivered after being 5 years late, make constant excuses for that, and attack anyone who calls us on their shit (including that "no amount of effort" post he made on kickstarter) instead of owning up to it. And then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
It's a combination of "We don't want a certain type of gamers if their politics is different than ours," and "we don't want anyone who doesn't worship Gygax," and "we employ people who have a lot of shady shit in their backgrounds and engage in some shady business ourselves," and "we don't hold up our end of bargains when doing business with gamers," and "we keep putting our feet in our mouths and have too much ego to really ever apologize and own up to that, but we will half-ass an apology because we want your cash."
That is a combination of a dumpster fire. Y'all can pretend this is just about one thing, but it's about so many things that should make you back away slowly from this company.
Oh no, I fully realize Ernie is a disaster and always has been as far as I can tell. I just laugh at trying to burn him down for what is a nothing statement that consisted of less than a second. It is sort of like trying to charge someone with a hate crime after you catch them red handed for 10 counts of 1st degree murder.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 28, 2021, 11:28:03 AM
Oh no, I fully realize Ernie is a disaster and always has been as far as I can tell. I just laugh at trying to burn him down for what is a nothing statement that consisted of less than a second. It is sort of like trying to charge someone with a hate crime after you catch them red handed for 10 counts of 1st degree murder.
Blasphemy is typically considered the most heinous offense, especially for a rising religion with Manichean tendencies.
It's really a shame Ernie is such a five-alarm dumpster fire of a human being. The people attacking him are so odious and vile, but he's not much better.
It's a double-shame since I love the Elevator Pitch for Giant Lands. I have had a soft spot for Post Apocalyptic Weird Fantasy ever since I first watched Wizards (and to a lesser degree Rock and Rule).
I will be holding onto my cash until the game actually releases. I'm not breaking my "no pre-orders" rule for him.
Origins just banned them too
Looking at all this, I got to ask the same thing I asked when the disaster surrounding Frank Mentzer was happening: Why doesn't the man simply get an agent?
Agents are cheap. If you carry the name "Gygax", I'm pretty sure there are more than enough that would rep you pro bono, at least until you start making "the real money". And even if they're not - you live somewhere in Sisterfuck, Wisconsin, not in Greenwich Village. The prices people will make you will be reasonable. - Now, if the core of the matter is simply that you are not professional enough to reserve about 1 to 3% of your six-figure project budget for someone to, at the very least, be your media coach, then you should probably not be in the business, at all.
Since "Castle Zagyg", back in...'05? ...There's one red line to all projects that involved "oldschool icons": They preside over processes of production and promotion they clearly do neither understand nor control. Where's the community that shields them from the vultures that seem to surround them? If this was a one-time-thing, it would maybe be excusable. But it's the same routine every single time one of the pioneers has come out and endorsed or launched a project. How come people continue to let that happen?
Quote from: JeffB on June 27, 2021, 07:21:31 PM
Based on posts I'm seeing on MEWE, GenCon has banned the new TSR.
Cracks me up every time GenCon does this.
By the Mobs own standards the owner of GenCon is a predator:
Wherein Peter Adkinson admits to sleeping with his employees when he was head of WOTC:
(Towards the end of the article)
https://www.salon.com/2001/03/23/wizards/
And yet because he is one of them he gets a pass...
Quote from: Melan on June 28, 2021, 03:29:29 AM
...
Yes they did. And this, urm, person is, apparently, GenCon's "Community Manager".
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/781454158132674580/858961561393561620/unknown.jpeg
This is just messed up.
A person who identifies with "evil". And whose sense of self and identity has been so profoundly damaged that they describe the horrific mutilation of their body as something to celebrate.
So unbelievably sad.
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 28, 2021, 02:00:47 PM
It's really a shame Ernie is such a five-alarm dumpster fire of a human being. The people attacking him are so odious and vile, but he's not much better.
It's a double-shame since I love the Elevator Pitch for Giant Lands. I have had a soft spot for Post Apocalyptic Weird Fantasy ever since I first watched Wizards (and to a lesser degree Rock and Rule).
I will be holding onto my cash until the game actually releases. I'm not breaking my "no pre-orders" rule for him.
I definitely think that is wise.
I love what I've seen of Marmoreal Tomb. I genuinely have reason to hope it will be an amazing product.
But if I had to do this all over again, I would wait for the thing to be in print before buying it. I'd happily pay probably $25-$30 more for the finished product when it's eventually releases than to have my money tied up for half a decade waiting for it to come out. In fact based on my back-of-the-envelope estimate of the interest I've lost on the money I spent on the Kickstarter and the time since it was supposed to come out, I think I've already paid around that much more in lost interest on my money which would have compounded yearly.
So yes, definitely do not break your no-pre-order policy for this set of people with this reputation they've built.
Say what you want about guys like Monte Cook, but when you buy into one of their kickstarters, the damn thing will arrive either early or right on time, guaranteed. That is a valuable thing these days.
Quote from: Rafael on June 28, 2021, 02:54:41 PM
Looking at all this, I got to ask the same thing I asked when the disaster surrounding Frank Mentzer was happening: Why doesn't the man simply get an agent?
Agents are cheap. If you carry the name "Gygax", I'm pretty sure there are more than enough that would rep you pro bono, at least until you start making "the real money". And even if they're not - you live somewhere in Sisterfuck, Wisconsin, not in Greenwich Village. The prices people will make you will be reasonable. - Now, if the core of the matter is simply that you are not professional enough to reserve about 1 to 3% of your six-figure project budget for someone to, at the very least, be your media coach, then you should probably not be in the business, at all.
Since "Castle Zagyg", back in...'05? ...There's one red line to all projects that involved "oldschool icons": They preside over processes of production and promotion they clearly do neither understand nor control. Where's the community that shields them from the vultures that seem to surround them? If this was a one-time-thing, it would maybe be excusable. But it's the same routine every single time one of the pioneers has come out and endorsed or launched a project. How come people continue to let that happen?
Because it's not an agent they need (agents find and negotiate new deals for you). It's a Public Relations Representative they need. One of my closest friends is one of those. And they are definitely not cheap. And they will not represent you pro-bono, no matter what your last name.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 04:56:16 PM
Quote from: Rafael on June 28, 2021, 02:54:41 PM
Looking at all this, I got to ask the same thing I asked when the disaster surrounding Frank Mentzer was happening: Why doesn't the man simply get an agent?
Agents are cheap. If you carry the name "Gygax", I'm pretty sure there are more than enough that would rep you pro bono, at least until you start making "the real money". And even if they're not - you live somewhere in Sisterfuck, Wisconsin, not in Greenwich Village. The prices people will make you will be reasonable. - Now, if the core of the matter is simply that you are not professional enough to reserve about 1 to 3% of your six-figure project budget for someone to, at the very least, be your media coach, then you should probably not be in the business, at all.
Since "Castle Zagyg", back in...'05? ...There's one red line to all projects that involved "oldschool icons": They preside over processes of production and promotion they clearly do neither understand nor control. Where's the community that shields them from the vultures that seem to surround them? If this was a one-time-thing, it would maybe be excusable. But it's the same routine every single time one of the pioneers has come out and endorsed or launched a project. How come people continue to let that happen?
Because it's not an agent they need (agents find and negotiate new deals for you). It's a Public Relations Representative they need. One of my closest friends is one of those. And they are definitely not cheap. And they will not represent you pro-bono, no matter what your last name.
Of course, you could get one that's utterly unqualified for cheap and just burn them when they (you) fuck up. Then get another, repeat, and blame all setbacks on "bad help" (even if you originally claimed they were the "best people" when you brought them on).
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2021, 04:59:45 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 04:56:16 PM
Quote from: Rafael on June 28, 2021, 02:54:41 PM
Looking at all this, I got to ask the same thing I asked when the disaster surrounding Frank Mentzer was happening: Why doesn't the man simply get an agent?
Agents are cheap. If you carry the name "Gygax", I'm pretty sure there are more than enough that would rep you pro bono, at least until you start making "the real money". And even if they're not - you live somewhere in Sisterfuck, Wisconsin, not in Greenwich Village. The prices people will make you will be reasonable. - Now, if the core of the matter is simply that you are not professional enough to reserve about 1 to 3% of your six-figure project budget for someone to, at the very least, be your media coach, then you should probably not be in the business, at all.
Since "Castle Zagyg", back in...'05? ...There's one red line to all projects that involved "oldschool icons": They preside over processes of production and promotion they clearly do neither understand nor control. Where's the community that shields them from the vultures that seem to surround them? If this was a one-time-thing, it would maybe be excusable. But it's the same routine every single time one of the pioneers has come out and endorsed or launched a project. How come people continue to let that happen?
Because it's not an agent they need (agents find and negotiate new deals for you). It's a Public Relations Representative they need. One of my closest friends is one of those. And they are definitely not cheap. And they will not represent you pro-bono, no matter what your last name.
Of course, you could get one that's utterly unqualified for cheap and just burn them when they (you) fuck up. Then get another, repeat, and blame all setbacks on "bad help" (even if you originally claimed they were the "best people" when you brought them on).
I witnessed this happen once to a person who is now a well known celebrity but who back then was simply a beginning actor with a decent rep for indie movies. It burned him bad. The pro-bono guy who handled PR for him and who was ditched as soon as the actor became famous ended up writing a tell-all book (full of a bunch of falsehoods mixed in with truth) and doing as many interviews as humanly possible all to trash the actor for burning him.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 28, 2021, 09:23:55 AMCan not make this shit up.
That's why I'm constantly taking notes. If you need examples of true evil you just have to look around you. It makes a DMs job so much easier.
I watched a long video interview with this son of Gary's, a long time ago; and I thought he seemed like a nice old guy, who wishes people would come play in his dungeon. It wasn't a bad interview that I watched. Gary's sons, aren't Gary; and that's OK.
When will companies learn to just stay off of social media entirely? It really serves no purpose other than give people a way to attack you for whatever reason they want.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 04:54:08 PM
So yes, definitely do not break your no-pre-order policy for this set of people with this reputation they've built.
Say what you want about guys like Monte Cook, but when you buy into one of their kickstarters, the damn thing will arrive either early or right on time, guaranteed. That is a valuable thing these days.
This.
It's okay to say fuck I'm not buying anything from this scumbag, but if they consistently deliver, that's a real skill set. They deserve props for that.
And it's okay to buy something from someone who has a pattern of failure, but by Gyges' ring don't give them any money in advance. Some (most) people lack the skill set of seeing a project to completion. My preferred policy is slightly stronger: Don't throw good money after bad -- i.e. until they fulfill their promises, no more money. Period, full stop, end of story, I don't care if it sounds great, not a dime. And if they're acting entitled and whining about the haters and attacking backers and otherwise trying to blame everyone else for their own failures, then I move to fuck that and fuck them no more ever that bridge is burned and I hope they financially die on it.
Quote from: Hakdov on June 28, 2021, 07:31:19 PM
When will companies learn to just stay off of social media entirely? It really serves no purpose other than give people a way to attack you for whatever reason they want.
Definitely a smart move to stay off Twitter, not only for protecting your reputation reasons but for simple time-management reasons.
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 28, 2021, 10:01:34 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 28, 2021, 04:07:37 AM
I think it's probably accurate to say that Ernie alienated 75% of the RPG "INDUSTRY".
But the "industry" is not the hobby.
Right. Recently Ethan Van Sciver was attacked by Scott Kurtz about endorsing his own product. Kurtz intimated that EVS couldn't get a fellow industry creator to endorse his product (that's not what happened at all). They totally miss the point that he doesn't want to be a part of "their" industry. They've hijacked it, they can have it and watch it slowly burn to the ground as these locusts move on to their next target.
I had fuck all to do with the Ernie interview, and yet on twitter at least a couple of guys invoked my name, and while doing it claimed that my "products are unimportant" or that I've "never produced anything of value". This while gaming is my full-time job and has bought me a house, while the assholes claiming this sell little booklets on itch.io that probably don't earn them enough to cover their aromatherapy-candle budget.
These cunts pretend to be "industry pros" of an industry where no one but WoTC makes any money of note. And they think that because they blocked me on twitter, that's somehow 'stopped' me. Meanwhile I have a bigger fanbase and more successful products than all of them put together.
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 12:44:13 AM
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 28, 2021, 10:01:34 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 28, 2021, 04:07:37 AM
I think it's probably accurate to say that Ernie alienated 75% of the RPG "INDUSTRY".
But the "industry" is not the hobby.
Right. Recently Ethan Van Sciver was attacked by Scott Kurtz about endorsing his own product. Kurtz intimated that EVS couldn't get a fellow industry creator to endorse his product (that's not what happened at all). They totally miss the point that he doesn't want to be a part of "their" industry. They've hijacked it, they can have it and watch it slowly burn to the ground as these locusts move on to their next target.
I had fuck all to do with the Ernie interview, and yet on twitter at least a couple of guys invoked my name, and while doing it claimed that my "products are unimportant" or that I've "never produced anything of value". This while gaming is my full-time job and has bought me a house, while the assholes claiming this sell little booklets on itch.io that probably don't earn them enough to cover their aromatherapy-candle budget.
These cunts pretend to be "industry pros" of an industry where no one but WoTC makes any money of note. And they think that because they blocked me on twitter, that's somehow 'stopped' me. Meanwhile I have a bigger fanbase and more successful products than all of them put together.
Dang. Pundit just invoked their aromatherapy candle budget, and then dropped the mic!!!
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 04:56:16 PMBecause it's not an agent they need (agents find and negotiate new deals for you). It's a Public Relations Representative they need. One of my closest friends is one of those. And they are definitely not cheap. And they will not represent you pro-bono, no matter what your last name.
Not sure whether I'm fumbling the linguistics, then, or not, but of course I'm not talking about a "spokesperson", I'm talking about a coach and counselor: You know, someone who gives you a basic idea of what you're doing, and who helps you to pick your gigs. Like, Ernie Gygax ain't River Phoenix; this should be affordable - and it should also be deemed necessary, after the series of brutal fuckups that Ernie had already been involved in.
I'm all with most of you that a good portion of the people blowing stuff like this up are outrage vampires. But if you are an average guy who no stakes in this fight, just how fucking stupid do you have to be to get involved in the mudslinging?! Again, Frank Mentzer situation here: You write a guy a threatening email/PM, and go on stalking Luke Gygax. How do you think you are winning this, or come off as the good guy? - The same level of pure idiocy, we just witnessed here. Ernie just went out there, and, without anyone asking for it, let everyone know he thinks that gay people "kinda" suck. And after that, he told a long and detailed story about how his failed and possibly embezzled crowdfunding campaign somehow still was a success. How could he possibly consider this a successful promotional effort, or even a good interview?
Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 05:46:20 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 04:56:16 PMBecause it's not an agent they need (agents find and negotiate new deals for you). It's a Public Relations Representative they need. One of my closest friends is one of those. And they are definitely not cheap. And they will not represent you pro-bono, no matter what your last name.
Not sure whether I'm fumbling the linguistics, then, or not, but of course I'm not talking about a "spokesperson", I'm talking about a coach and counselor: You know, someone who gives you a basic idea of what you're doing, and who helps you to pick your gigs. Like, Ernie Gygax ain't River Phoenix; this should be affordable - and it should also be deemed necessary, after the series of brutal fuckups that Ernie had already been involved in.
I'm all with most of you that a good portion of the people blowing stuff like this up are outrage vampires. But if you are an average guy who no stakes in this fight, just how fucking stupid do you have to be to get involved in the mudslinging?! Again, Frank Mentzer situation here: You write a guy a threatening email/PM, and go on stalking Luke Gygax. How do you think you are winning this, or come off as the good guy? - The same level of pure idiocy, we just witnessed here. Ernie just went out there, and, without anyone asking for it, let everyone know he thinks that gay people "kinda" suck.
When did he say that?
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2021, 08:41:32 AMWhen did he say that?
I'm not quoting Ernie verbatim, I'm assuming that his deliberately dismissive comment regarding gender identity, and his follow-up about "Christian values" seem to imply that. This is ever the more impressive because his partner in the interview did not bring the topic up, as best I remember; Ernie did. - Or, how do you read it? Doesn't seem to me Ernie is quoting his Christian upbringing to say "love thy neighbor", and "turn the other cheek".
Unironically, and skipping any jokes how Ernie looks like the kind of DJ you find at parties where people *do* like to turn cheeks, and stuff: Ernie himself, without any need, decided to play with fire. And, predictably enough, he got burned, and might well lose his entire project/company/whatever over it. Nobody's a dick for pointing that out; he's a freaking idiot for letting that happen.
Again, simple question: This new TSR is supposed to have been around for perhaps a year, already. IPs have been registered, many forms have been filed, many meetings and talks have been held. The "Giantlands" project seems to be at post-production levels. Who are the people who enabled Ernie to expose himself like this? - Because those are the fuckers who the hobby needs to hold accountable.
Frank Mentzer famously had a guy who was supposed to act as his "internet and social media" person. How did this person let Frank do what he did?
The same goes for Ernie: How come he gets to do that interview in the first place?
Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 08:58:16 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2021, 08:41:32 AMWhen did he say that?
I'm not quoting Ernie verbatim, I'm assuming that his deliberately dismissive comment regarding gender identity, and his follow-up about "Christian values" seem to imply that. This is ever the more impressive because his partner in the interview did not bring the topic up, as best I remember; Ernie did. - Or, how do you read it? Doesn't seem to me Ernie is quoting his Christian upbringing to say "love thy neighbor", and "turn the other cheek".
Unironically, and skipping any jokes how Ernie looks like the kind of DJ you find at parties where people *do* like to turn cheeks, and stuff: Ernie himself, without any need, decided to play with fire. And, predictably enough, he got burned, and might well lose his entire project/company/whatever over it. Nobody's a dick for pointing that out; he's a freaking idiot for letting that happen.
Again, simple question: This new TSR is supposed to have been around for perhaps a year, already. The "Giantlands" project seems to be entering post-production. Who are the people who enabled Ernie to expose himself like this? - Because those are the fuckers who the hobby needs to hold accountable.
Ok, but for the record it took Ratman five syllables and a question mark to expose the fact that, no, Ernie did not say that gay people "kinda" suck. Accusing and implying is how we got here in the first place, where I guess it is acceptable to lose your company and your already crappy reputation in less than a second.
Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 08:58:16 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2021, 08:41:32 AMWhen did he say that?
I'm not quoting Ernie verbatim, I'm assuming that his deliberately dismissive comment regarding gender identity, and his follow-up about "Christian values" seem to imply that. This is ever the more impressive because his partner in the interview did not bring the topic up, as best I remember; Ernie did. - Or, how do you read it? Doesn't seem to me Ernie is quoting his Christian upbringing to say "love thy neighbor", and "turn the other cheek".
Unironically, and skipping any jokes how Ernie looks like the kind of DJ you find at parties where people *do* like to turn cheeks, and stuff: Ernie himself, without any need, decided to play with fire. And, predictably enough, he got burned, and might well lose his entire project/company/whatever over it. Nobody's a dick for pointing that out; he's a freaking idiot for letting that happen.
Again, simple question: This new TSR is supposed to have been around for perhaps a year, already. IPs have been registered, many forms have been filed, many meetings and talks have been held. The "Giantlands" project seems to be at post-production levels. Who are the people who enabled Ernie to expose himself like this? - Because those are the fuckers who the hobby needs to hold accountable.
Frank Mentzer famously had a guy who was supposed to act as his "internet and social media" person. How did this person let Frank do what he did?
The same goes for Ernie: How come he gets to do that interview in the first place?
I will sum up, you just made it up.
Quote from: FingerRod on June 29, 2021, 09:10:33 AMOk, but for the record it took Ratman five syllables and a question mark to expose the fact that, no, Ernie did not say that gay people "kinda" suck. Accusing and implying is how we got here in the first place, where I guess it is acceptable to lose your company and your already crappy reputation in less than a second.
I was still editing my post when you replied, sorry. Mind you, I harbor Gygax no ill will. I would very much like for those operations to become less of a shitfest, though, and his is definitely not the way to do it.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:12:30 AMI will sum up, you just made it up.
No, U maed it upp! - What is this? "Sea-lioning"?
This is what Ernie said, verbatim, that got everybody quacking - in case you fancy a reminder:
QuoteThere's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity
Within the borders of civility, this is perhaps the single most stupid and unprofessional thing he could have said. Now, I'm happy to argue whether this is 60% stupid or 70% stupid, but we should not argue that it's "hella" stupid. He has no opinion there, he's not a martyr, he's being a dumbass. - And his follow-up tweet, about the supposed "Christian values": Dear God, this guy has not one friend left in the world who tells him to shut up when it would be better for him. "No gay jokes, Ernie!" - "What?" - "NO GAY JOKES, ERNIE!!!" - "Ok." ...Aaaand, problem solved.
You made it up. You said yourself, assume, imply, etc. Its ok maybe your super secret decoder ring where ernie is implying there might be some gamers out there who do not give two shits about gender identity means "gay people kind of suck" may tell you that, but the black and white facts are, you made it up that he said what you say he said. It's okay, I am sure you bend what ever you read or hear to justify all sorts of things.
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words. I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant.
It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 12:44:13 AM
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 28, 2021, 10:01:34 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 28, 2021, 04:07:37 AM
I think it's probably accurate to say that Ernie alienated 75% of the RPG "INDUSTRY".
But the "industry" is not the hobby.
Right. Recently Ethan Van Sciver was attacked by Scott Kurtz about endorsing his own product. Kurtz intimated that EVS couldn't get a fellow industry creator to endorse his product (that's not what happened at all). They totally miss the point that he doesn't want to be a part of "their" industry. They've hijacked it, they can have it and watch it slowly burn to the ground as these locusts move on to their next target.
I had fuck all to do with the Ernie interview, and yet on twitter at least a couple of guys invoked my name, and while doing it claimed that my "products are unimportant" or that I've "never produced anything of value". This while gaming is my full-time job and has bought me a house, while the assholes claiming this sell little booklets on itch.io that probably don't earn them enough to cover their aromatherapy-candle budget.
These cunts pretend to be "industry pros" of an industry where no one but WoTC makes any money of note. And they think that because they blocked me on twitter, that's somehow 'stopped' me. Meanwhile I have a bigger fanbase and more successful products than all of them put together.
Coffee on my keyboard...thanks >:(
Sounds like Ernie tipped his hand and showed that he is republican. All the rage/frenzy with long arguments is to just dance around the fact that being republican is not considered OK anymore.
Only hardcore enthusiast buy not-D&D RPG books or even talk about them. It's no wonder that buzz around the hobby is full of extremist voices. Also funny to me is that OSR developers actually make money via "The Art of Money Getting; Or, Golden Rules for Making Money by P. T. Barnum" - spend less than you make. All these socialist/communist understand that labor is exploitation yet didn't realize that if you own as many layers as possible in your RPG business that you make more money. While RPGs don't really make money, if you are a capitalist in the not-industry, you may make enough money to support yourself.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 27, 2021, 09:14:34 PM
Tim Kask:
"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.
But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry. Probably more than that, I don't believe that there's a quarter of the gaming industry that still are the neanderthals that he would make us out to be.
That's another thing. This whole thing has brought the OSR (the old school revival) into serious disrepute. Now there are some little Karens going on some of the social media and painting with the same brush all of us that were there back then based on the stupid ass sh*t that Ernie just said. No. We weren't all like that. And we aren't all like that now. He's a troll, a troglodyte, a neanderthal, if he really means that. It's a foolish person that doesn't wet his finger once in a while and feel the wind shift.
Now there've been claims in a couple of posts, one of which is by Ernie, about how the stalwarts, the old TSR are flocking to the banner. Bullsh*t....
... There is no one of the creative side of TSR from the early days involved with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum. No one. Not one creative person. No matter who might be claiming what, they simply do not have the credentials. Being named DiMaggio does not mean you can hit a lot of home runs. Or that you even hit any home runs ....
... Just because you say you're TSR doesn't mean you are."
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types. Ernie has to have known his statements would do that. TSR and Ernie's behavior since then has not helped.
Aaron raises some very good arguments as well against defending Ernie and TSR simply on the basis of Tribe. (https://twitter.com/cha_neg/status/1409582297775415298?s=20) tl;dr Ernie and TSR are handing the nattering, SJW Karens of the world ammunition to smear the entire OSR while producing nothing of value themselves.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:33:13 AM
You made it up. You said yourself, assume, imply, etc. Its ok maybe your super secret decoder ring where ernie is implying there might be some gamers out there who do not give two shits about gender identity means "gay people kind of suck" may tell you that, but the black and white facts are, you made it up that he said what you say he said. It's okay, I am sure you bend what ever you read or hear to justify all sorts of things.
It's a scientifically proven fact that wokeness imparts mind-reading abilities and you can thus determine someone's inner secret thoughts.
This is another case of a manufactured distraction by elements in the gaming industry. WOTC and Gencon (adkinson) have every reason to keep people on the defensive, and to periodically get competitors banned / cancelled
Now some people say "the new TSR doesn't even have products, they are a joke, no threat to WOTC"! Which is true, but Ernie isn't the only guy who has been cancelled. We have:
Frank Mentzer: cancelled because of some remarks he made to some nobody chick on social media. He was involved with Eldritch Enterprises and a few other endeavors at the time
Bill Webb: of Frog God Games, which caters to the OSR crowd (and others), who was also cancelled for some remarks he made to a woman
Zack Smith: an Ennie award winning artist and designer who found success with LotFP and was a rising name in the industry. Also cancelled
we don't see WOTC people getting cancelled.
And what about WOTC? They are owned by Hasbro, a company that has its manufacturing and publishing base in China, a country that throws Muslims into concentration camps, gays into reeducation centers, and runs over protesters with tanks. Hasrbo has been using child labor and sweat shops in China for a long time
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/07/nightmare-at-chinese-factories-making-hasbro-and-disney-toys.html
WOTC and others engage in "rainbow washing" oftheir brand. This is all about the money, ain't a damn thing funny. Better to keep the SJWs combing through social media accounts of competitors in the US, or those people might start taking a closer look at WOTC's business practices
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 27, 2021, 09:14:34 PM
Tim Kask:
"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.
But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry. Probably more than that, I don't believe that there's a quarter of the gaming industry that still are the neanderthals that he would make us out to be.
That's another thing. This whole thing has brought the OSR (the old school revival) into serious disrepute. Now there are some little Karens going on some of the social media and painting with the same brush all of us that were there back then based on the stupid ass sh*t that Ernie just said. No. We weren't all like that. And we aren't all like that now. He's a troll, a troglodyte, a neanderthal, if he really means that. It's a foolish person that doesn't wet his finger once in a while and feel the wind shift.
Now there've been claims in a couple of posts, one of which is by Ernie, about how the stalwarts, the old TSR are flocking to the banner. Bullsh*t....
... There is no one of the creative side of TSR from the early days involved with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum. No one. Not one creative person. No matter who might be claiming what, they simply do not have the credentials. Being named DiMaggio does not mean you can hit a lot of home runs. Or that you even hit any home runs ....
... Just because you say you're TSR doesn't mean you are."
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types. Ernie has to have known his statements would do that. TSR and Ernie's behavior since then has not helped.
Aaron raises some very good arguments as well against defending Ernie and TSR simply on the basis of Tribe. (https://twitter.com/cha_neg/status/1409582297775415298?s=20) tl;dr Ernie and TSR are handing the nattering, SJW Karens of the world ammunition to smear the entire OSR while producing nothing of value themselves.
No, you better bend the knee. I get what you say, and can agree. It does not fully comport with reality though, you can most definitely antagonize a section of fans (IMO antagonizing ANY fans is a losing proposition) so long as you antagonize the RIGHT fans, the Mx community leader super villains will not cancel you.
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 27, 2021, 09:14:34 PM
Tim Kask:
"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.
But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry. Probably more than that, I don't believe that there's a quarter of the gaming industry that still are the neanderthals that he would make us out to be.
That's another thing. This whole thing has brought the OSR (the old school revival) into serious disrepute. Now there are some little Karens going on some of the social media and painting with the same brush all of us that were there back then based on the stupid ass sh*t that Ernie just said. No. We weren't all like that. And we aren't all like that now. He's a troll, a troglodyte, a neanderthal, if he really means that. It's a foolish person that doesn't wet his finger once in a while and feel the wind shift.
Now there've been claims in a couple of posts, one of which is by Ernie, about how the stalwarts, the old TSR are flocking to the banner. Bullsh*t....
... There is no one of the creative side of TSR from the early days involved with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum. No one. Not one creative person. No matter who might be claiming what, they simply do not have the credentials. Being named DiMaggio does not mean you can hit a lot of home runs. Or that you even hit any home runs ....
... Just because you say you're TSR doesn't mean you are."
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types.
Fuck 'em. They dig into people's pasts to find transgressions, and react to, in their own words, "micro-agressions". Sooner or later, everyone antagonizes the SJW types. Even and especially their own.
QuoteErnie has to have known his statements would do that. TSR and Ernie's behavior since then has not helped.
Aaron raises some very good arguments as well against defending Ernie and TSR simply on the basis of Tribe. (https://twitter.com/cha_neg/status/1409582297775415298?s=20) tl;dr Ernie and TSR are handing the nattering, SJW Karens of the world ammunition to smear the entire OSR while producing nothing of value themselves.
The less power we give SJW Karens, the better. Let them rant on twitter until they find a new chew toy to play with.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:42:38 AM
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words. I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant.
It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."
Come on, here. Nuance and context do, in fact, exist. You yourself cite Jordan Peterson, who brought nuance back, so to speak. Ernie, however, didn't try nuance, here: He tried to make a bad joke and it backfired, and he did not have any fucking clue how to handle it. He's hardly "Jordan Peterson"-ing anybody, and he's certainly not being "cryptic".
...And that's why I'm saying - and even if you disagree with me on the nuances concerning this specific example, I hope you can agree with me on that - that these old-timers need more protection by the community: Year by year, one of them comes out with a surely well-meant and even heartwarming attempt at a project that, if it actually held what it promised, would be a joy to behold. And, year by year, those projects get nothing short of eviscerated because "grandpa liketh to talk too much".
As Melan pointed out earlier,
Choppy the Titless a person that's extremely sensitive about their gender identity is being the MC at GenCon. You want to have a professional relationship with that person, skip jokes that could offend them. They might overreact. - You know, just shut the fuck up about anything not related to your project. Stay, on message, don't talk past projects, don't talk future projects. Filibuster the interview by reading the entire fucking business plan if you have to. Just make the sale. - But there, you get by being prepared. Ernie clearly wasn't prepared. Why wasn't he prepared? He's participating in a promotional event, not in a private conversation. Why does it seem like does have nothing to promote there? That's a mistake, not an error, to quote a certain blue-skinned alien. And mistakes, you have to correct, or others will correct them for you.
Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 10:38:28 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:42:38 AM
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words. I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant.
It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."
Come on, here. Nuance and context do, in fact, exist. You yourself cite Jordan Peterson, who brought nuance back, so to speak. Ernie, however, didn't try nuance, here: He tried to make a bad joke and it backfired, and he did not have any fucking clue how to handle it. He's hardly "Jordan Peterson"-ing anybody, and he's certainly not being "cryptic".
...And that's why I'm saying - and even if you disagree with me on the nuances concerning this specific example, I hope you can agree with me on that - that these old-timers need more protection by the community: Year by year, one of them comes out with a surely well-meant and even heartwarming attempt at a project that, if it actually held what it promised, would be a joy to behold. And, year by year, those projects get nothing short of eviscerated because "grandpa liketh to talk too much".
As Melan pointed out earlier, Choppy the Titless a person that's extremely sensitive about their gender identity is being the MC at GenCon. You want to have a professional relationship with that person, skip jokes that could offend them. They might overreact. - You know, just shut the fuck up about anything not related to your project. Stay, on message, don't talk past projects, don't talk future projects. Filibuster the interview by reading the entire fucking business plan if you have to. Just make the sale. - But there, you get by being prepared. Ernie clearly wasn't prepared. Why wasn't he prepared? He's participating in a promotional event, not in a private conversation. Why does it seem like does have nothing to promote there? That's a mistake, not an error, to quote a certain blue-skinned alien. And mistakes, you have to correct, or others will correct them for you.
Ernie can stop talking about his opinion on gender identity when these freaks stop endlessly publicly pushing their mental deficiencies on the rest of us. You want to hang out with Buffalo Bill fine you're allowed to. The rest of us are tired of hearing about it and are starting to make our voices heard.
Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 10:38:28 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:42:38 AM
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words. I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant.
It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."
Come on, here. Nuance and context do, in fact, exist. You yourself cite Jordan Peterson, who brought nuance back, so to speak. Ernie, however, didn't try nuance, here: He tried to make a bad joke and it backfired, and he did not have any fucking clue how to handle it. He's hardly "Jordan Peterson"-ing anybody, and he's certainly not being "cryptic".
...And that's why I'm saying - and even if you disagree with me on the nuances concerning this specific example, I hope you can agree with me on that - that these old-timers need more protection by the community: Year by year, one of them comes out with a surely well-meant and even heartwarming attempt at a project that, if it actually held what it promised, would be a joy to behold. And, year by year, those projects get nothing short of eviscerated because "grandpa liketh to talk too much".
As Melan pointed out earlier, Choppy the Titless a person that's extremely sensitive about their gender identity is being the MC at GenCon. You want to have a professional relationship with that person, skip jokes that could offend them. They might overreact. - You know, just shut the fuck up about anything not related to your project. Stay, on message, don't talk past projects, don't talk future projects. Filibuster the interview by reading the entire fucking business plan if you have to. Just make the sale. - But there, you get by being prepared. Ernie clearly wasn't prepared. Why wasn't he prepared? He's participating in a promotional event, not in a private conversation. Why does it seem like does have nothing to promote there? That's a mistake, not an error, to quote a certain blue-skinned alien. And mistakes, you have to correct, or others will correct them for you.
Clearly that is the biggest problem: Ernie being clueless and unprepared. He doesn't know how to handle social media or a business. Doesn't make him a bad guy, it just makes him incompetent.
But one thing that should be pointed out: Ernie and many of these other "old-timers" are NOT the fucking main creators and designers of D&D / AD&D. They are minor figures trying to cash in and get a few extra bucks in their retirement, playing on nostalgia.
The main, foundational authors and designers of D&D / AD&D between 1974 and 1997 (WOTC takeover) were:
Gary Gygax
Dave Arneson (only because he was the big idea guy)
David "Zeb" Cook (lots of modules, supplements, help with design)
Tom Moldvay (designer of B/X, several excellent modules)
Aaron Allston (RC author, along with supplements and modules)
Harold Johnson (main editor, wrote modules, ran RPGA, etc.)
Frank Mentzer (BECMI, some modules, RPGA)
Tracy Hickman (Ravenloft, Dragonlance, etc.)
There may be a few more, but those are the "big" guys in my book.
and then we have MINOR figures
Jim Ward: has some credits to his name, but was not in any way instrumental in the development and history of D&D. No one plays MA.
Jeff Dee: did a little art for D&D and the Demigods book back in the day. Not one of the main artists, and has basically no writing credits.
Rob Kuntz: not enough there to make him anything special
Ed Greenwood: sure, Forgoten Realms, Dragon articles and some books, but I didn't really know anything about him until 10 years ago
Tim Kask: was a supporting figure at-best with minimal credits to his name
Tom Wham: not really involved with D&D at all --what did he even do?
and then we have guys who never did much of anything, but claim Old School / TSR credentials, like Ernie.
Quote from: KingCheops on June 29, 2021, 10:53:45 AM
Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 10:38:28 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:42:38 AM
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words. I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant.
It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."
Come on, here. Nuance and context do, in fact, exist. You yourself cite Jordan Peterson, who brought nuance back, so to speak. Ernie, however, didn't try nuance, here: He tried to make a bad joke and it backfired, and he did not have any fucking clue how to handle it. He's hardly "Jordan Peterson"-ing anybody, and he's certainly not being "cryptic".
...And that's why I'm saying - and even if you disagree with me on the nuances concerning this specific example, I hope you can agree with me on that - that these old-timers need more protection by the community: Year by year, one of them comes out with a surely well-meant and even heartwarming attempt at a project that, if it actually held what it promised, would be a joy to behold. And, year by year, those projects get nothing short of eviscerated because "grandpa liketh to talk too much".
As Melan pointed out earlier, Choppy the Titless a person that's extremely sensitive about their gender identity is being the MC at GenCon. You want to have a professional relationship with that person, skip jokes that could offend them. They might overreact. - You know, just shut the fuck up about anything not related to your project. Stay, on message, don't talk past projects, don't talk future projects. Filibuster the interview by reading the entire fucking business plan if you have to. Just make the sale. - But there, you get by being prepared. Ernie clearly wasn't prepared. Why wasn't he prepared? He's participating in a promotional event, not in a private conversation. Why does it seem like does have nothing to promote there? That's a mistake, not an error, to quote a certain blue-skinned alien. And mistakes, you have to correct, or others will correct them for you.
Ernie can stop talking about his opinion on gender identity when these freaks stop endlessly publicly pushing their mental deficiencies on the rest of us. You want to hang out with Buffalo Bill fine you're allowed to. The rest of us are tired of hearing about it and are starting to make our voices heard.
"Don't try and shove your agenda down my throat unless you're prepared to enter my magical realm."
Thankfully, I've only had to use that club once and the player in question immediately reeled it back in. Smart move on their part.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 29, 2021, 11:45:34 AM
Quote from: KingCheops on June 29, 2021, 10:53:45 AM
Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 10:38:28 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:42:38 AM
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words. I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant.
It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."
Come on, here. Nuance and context do, in fact, exist. You yourself cite Jordan Peterson, who brought nuance back, so to speak. Ernie, however, didn't try nuance, here: He tried to make a bad joke and it backfired, and he did not have any fucking clue how to handle it. He's hardly "Jordan Peterson"-ing anybody, and he's certainly not being "cryptic".
...And that's why I'm saying - and even if you disagree with me on the nuances concerning this specific example, I hope you can agree with me on that - that these old-timers need more protection by the community: Year by year, one of them comes out with a surely well-meant and even heartwarming attempt at a project that, if it actually held what it promised, would be a joy to behold. And, year by year, those projects get nothing short of eviscerated because "grandpa liketh to talk too much".
As Melan pointed out earlier, Choppy the Titless a person that's extremely sensitive about their gender identity is being the MC at GenCon. You want to have a professional relationship with that person, skip jokes that could offend them. They might overreact. - You know, just shut the fuck up about anything not related to your project. Stay, on message, don't talk past projects, don't talk future projects. Filibuster the interview by reading the entire fucking business plan if you have to. Just make the sale. - But there, you get by being prepared. Ernie clearly wasn't prepared. Why wasn't he prepared? He's participating in a promotional event, not in a private conversation. Why does it seem like does have nothing to promote there? That's a mistake, not an error, to quote a certain blue-skinned alien. And mistakes, you have to correct, or others will correct them for you.
Ernie can stop talking about his opinion on gender identity when these freaks stop endlessly publicly pushing their mental deficiencies on the rest of us. You want to hang out with Buffalo Bill fine you're allowed to. The rest of us are tired of hearing about it and are starting to make our voices heard.
"Don't try and shove your agenda down my throat unless you're prepared to enter my magical realm."
Thankfully, I've only had to use that club once and the player in question immediately reeled it back in. Smart move on their part.
I had to use it a few times when I was running games at my university. One was a Korean who was obsessed with Hitler and Nazis. Two were law school guys who had piles of mental/social issues that made playing with them very hard. The other big one that sticks out was this one young lady who I'm not sure exactly what happened to her in her past but she insisted on adding twisted sex stuff to every game even when the rest of us made it clear we didn't want that.
This latest gender craze is just an easy way for damaged individuals like these to score points and gain social acceptance/approval. Apart from the Korean Nazi I don't know if I'd be allowed to kick them out of the games at the club anymore.
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 11:09:44 AMClearly that is the biggest problem: Ernie being clueless and unprepared. He doesn't know how to handle social media or a business. Doesn't make him a bad guy, it just makes him incompetent.
[...]
But one thing that should be pointed out: Ernie and many of these other "old-timers" are NOT the fucking main creators and designers of D&D / AD&D. They are minor figures trying to cash in and get a few extra bucks in their retirement, playing on nostalgia.
Well said! This is also why I pull no punches with them. They're promoting their brands with an unearned sense of elitism.
That would be tolerable, to a point, if they delivered on their lofty promises. But they only rarely do.
The market is made by folks who have way less exposure - because they focus on actually getting stuff done.
I'd rather roll dice with Ernie or Frank, than with these modern social justice butt-kissers.
That I have seen, Ernie has not actually said that he hates LGBT people, or that they are evil, or that he doesn't want them in the hobby, or anything along those lines anywhere that I've noticed.
ALL that he said in that interview is that there's no reason why every single gaming company should need to obsess over gender identity issues in their games. Which is absolutely true.
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:13:40 PM
That I have seen, Ernie has not actually said that he hates LGBT people, or that they are evil, or that he doesn't want them in the hobby, or anything along those lines anywhere that I've noticed.
ALL that he said in that interview is that there's no reason why every single gaming company should need to obsess over gender identity issues in their games. Which is absolutely true.
It seems that the real inflection point was on Twitter, when someone tried to pressure him into affirming 'trans men are men, trans women are women, and trans lives matter' after he'd explicitly denounced bigotry, and his response was "You are disgusting," which has been read as a reaction that poster's trans identity rather than the pressure.
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types.
Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.
The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.
The only power they have is because people like you warn others to be afraid of them and do what they demand, and not stand up to them.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on June 29, 2021, 02:16:54 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:13:40 PM
That I have seen, Ernie has not actually said that he hates LGBT people, or that they are evil, or that he doesn't want them in the hobby, or anything along those lines anywhere that I've noticed.
ALL that he said in that interview is that there's no reason why every single gaming company should need to obsess over gender identity issues in their games. Which is absolutely true.
It seems that the real inflection point was on Twitter, when someone tried to pressure him into affirming 'trans men are men, trans women are women, and trans lives matter' after he'd explicitly denounced bigotry, and his response was "You are disgusting," which has been read as a reaction that poster's trans identity rather than the pressure.
1. The person who responded was whoever is in charge of the Giant Lands account, probably Lanata, almost certainly not Ernie who looks like he couldn't be in charge of a jar with a bee in it.
2. It was very clearly a statement of disgust at the person DEMANDING that Ernie recite a list of Enforced Speech Statements Of Diversity, OR ELSE. That was what was going on there, and it was disgusting. It was the disgusting act of a Maoist totalitarian demanding that Ernie recite the Communist Slogan or be sent to the killing fields.
Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 10:38:28 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:42:38 AM
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words. I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant.
It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."
Come on, here. Nuance and context do, in fact, exist. You yourself cite Jordan Peterson, who brought nuance back, so to speak. Ernie, however, didn't try nuance, here: He tried to make a bad joke and it backfired, and he did not have any fucking clue how to handle it. He's hardly "Jordan Peterson"-ing anybody, and he's certainly not being "cryptic".
That wasn't the comparison. Oggsmash was comparing
you to the
the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen.
Which seems accurate. Ernie Gygax did not say what you said he did. You completely changed his words, but presented it as a straightforward summary. That's what people are objecting to.
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types
Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.
The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.
I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.
Ah OK, another case of someone not really thinking about their Twitter. It's an awful form of communication. If you are perceived as conservative and say something that can be construed as a Nazi-ish reply to someone, it is interpreted as that.
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types
Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.
The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.
I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.
That's an interesting definition of success you got there.
Pundit's remark on the 'Do the Struggle Session Recitation' tweet is on point. Forced affirmation will not create acceptance.
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM
I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.
Any idea why? I have a theory, but I'm curious as to your thoughts.
Quote from: shoplifter on June 29, 2021, 04:10:52 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM
I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.
Any idea why? I have a theory, but I'm curious as to your thoughts.
Is it because celebrations of reactionary conservative politics is generally kind'of F'd up?
Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 09:28:34 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on June 29, 2021, 09:10:33 AMOk, but for the record it took Ratman five syllables and a question mark to expose the fact that, no, Ernie did not say that gay people "kinda" suck. Accusing and implying is how we got here in the first place, where I guess it is acceptable to lose your company and your already crappy reputation in less than a second.
I was still editing my post when you replied, sorry. Mind you, I harbor Gygax no ill will. I would very much like for those operations to become less of a shitfest, though, and his is definitely not the way to do it.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:12:30 AMI will sum up, you just made it up.
No, U maed it upp! - What is this? "Sea-lioning"?
This is what Ernie said, verbatim, that got everybody quacking - in case you fancy a reminder:
QuoteThere's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity
Within the borders of civility, this is perhaps the single most stupid and unprofessional thing he could have said. Now, I'm happy to argue whether this is 60% stupid or 70% stupid, but we should not argue that it's "hella" stupid. He has no opinion there, he's not a martyr, he's being a dumbass. - And his follow-up tweet, about the supposed "Christian values": Dear God, this guy has not one friend left in the world who tells him to shut up when it would be better for him. "No gay jokes, Ernie!" - "What?" - "NO GAY JOKES, ERNIE!!!" - "Ok." ...Aaaand, problem solved.
Even Gay people understand the concept of gender identity.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 29, 2021, 04:04:50 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types
Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.
The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.
I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.
That's an interesting definition of success you got there.
Pundit's remark on the 'Do the Struggle Session Recitation' tweet is on point. Forced affirmation will not create acceptance.
Quite the contrary; it breeds resentment.
Eventually it will reach a point where the backlash comes and the dumb fat dangerhairs who were just going along with what the media tells them is the "In" crowd will find themselves in a fire and those on the butt end of being cancelled won't pour water on the fire, they'll pour gasoline.
Less than 1% of the population even HAS a Twitter account. Someone's spent a lot of PR capital on convincing people in charge of various companies that it's the majority voice of the people and should be listened to above all else instead of a cesspool of the 1% freaks.
WotC and the other Wokers are catering to a tiny slice of the pie and while they haven't alienated enough of the common gamers while doing so YET, it's just a matter of time until it hits critical mass at which point the collapse of support will be sudden.
Quote from: shoplifter on June 29, 2021, 04:10:52 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM
I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.
Any idea why? I have a theory, but I'm curious as to your thoughts.
I don't really know. I would think that there are plenty of conservative gamers - and they seem to have their preferred channels such as Youtube, but maybe they're a more fractured market in terms of their gaming taste?
One thing to note is that Internet forums might be a good predictor of Kickstarter campaigns, but they're likely not a good predictor of the wider gaming market. I think plenty of these Kickstarters - including Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow - probably aren't going to result in consistent actual play, but then, the vast majority of RPGs in general aren't successful.
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 05:17:50 PM
One thing to note is that Internet forums might be a good predictor of Kickstarter campaigns, but they're likely not a good predictor of the wider gaming market. I think plenty of these Kickstarters - including Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow - probably aren't going to result in consistent actual play, but then, the vast majority of RPGs in general aren't successful.
I think we're kind of on the same page - I don't see some of these 'progressive darlings' getting any actual play but people might be willing to throw some money at them to feel good. On the opposite side of the coin, conservative gamers (not necessarily the general public, fwiw, I think a lot of "conservative" gamers are actually classical liberals, myself included, but I could be wrong here) just want a good product and don't care who makes it? I don't have any problem with stuff like Thirsty Sword Lesbians existing in the market, there's room for anything and everything in the RPG space, I'm just not interested it that sort of game at all.
Just a stab, and of course it isn't meant to be a blanket statement. I think we've definitely seen products squarely aimed at traditional conservatives that have done well due to that marketing, but I don't see it being a major selling point in gaming. I *do* see a place for products that are unabashedly anti-political and/or anti-identitarian, though.
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types
Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.
The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.
I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.
Why should there be? Regular gamers don't want "conservative games", they want GAMES THAT AREN'T POLITICAL INDOCTRINATION. And in that sense the plethora of OSR games are doing very well, my own products included.
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 10:25:40 AMwe don't see WOTC people getting cancelled.
I seem to remember Mike Mearls, Chris Perkins, Satine Phoenix, and Chris Crawford all being on the receiving end of various defamatory statements over social media.
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types
Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.
The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.
I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.
Why should there be? Regular gamers don't want "conservative games", they want GAMES THAT AREN'T POLITICAL INDOCTRINATION. And in that sense the plethora of OSR games are doing very well, my own products included.
Greetings!
Right, right Pundit. Yes, that is old thinking though.
We know from our Marxist elites that anything tight of Mao is "Far Right" and "White Supremacy".
Beyond ideological tenets or implied philosophy, there is the more explicit demands, growing louder all the time--
"If someone doesn't support LGBTQ, they are hate-filled bigots! We need to always fight these evil fascists whenever we can, and destroy them utterly."
"SILENCE IS WHITE VIOLENCE"
"Any company squirming and tap dancing not wanting to be "political" is merely code-speak for White Supremacy. No, anyone seeking to "Remain Neutral" or "Non-Political" is just as evil as the rest of the White Supremacists. They ARE White Supremacists, they are just living in denial, or trying to have it both ways so they can keep getting money. That isn't fucking good enough, and it isn't acceptable. Yu are either on board with acceptance, inclusion, and Justice--or you get destroyed."
"If you can't support true Social Justice, PUBLICLY--then you are just dog-whistling for the hate-filled Racist bigots. The White Supremacists, all of these traditional, happy fucking white heteronormative tyrants are trying to gate-keep and oppress the people. IT IS OUR HOBBY! OUR SPACE! OUR VOICES! The White Supremacists and bigots of the OSR need to be crushed. They have no business being anywhere near OUR HOBBY, and OUR GAMES!"
This all can sometimes feel so surreal, like we are living in some kind of fucked up episode of the Twilight Zone. Anyone, any game company, any gamer--that doesn't absolutely support Trans, Marxism, BLM, etc--and make their art, and their games just like Seattle 2021--are all, by definition, evil, racist bigots that support White Supremacy. It isn't really about gaming as it is a full-scale social assault to brainwash people into embracing the ideology, or brow-beat opponents into abject submission. Many more of them are also calling for opponents to be cancelled, financially ruined, and crushed--and even beaten to death and killed. YOU, the white people, the traditionalists, Conservatives, Christians, TRUMP SUPPORTERS, are all the ENEMY.
"Regular Gamers" are the ENEMY. I know you know this all too, Pundit. ;D It is just so mind-boggling that so many of these people really do want "Regular Gamers" to be beaten to death, and killed in horrible ways. And it isn't just the Marxist, Libtard men, either. The Purple haired, trans/pierced hippo women also want "Regular Gamers" to be killed in terrible ways. The seething hatred for "Regular Gamers" never stops.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: mightybrain on June 29, 2021, 07:09:13 PM
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 10:25:40 AMwe don't see WOTC people getting cancelled.
I seem to remember Mike Mearls, Chris Perkins, Satine Phoenix, and Chris Crawford all being on the receiving end of various defamatory statements over social media.
The revolution eventually eats its own.
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types
Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.
The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.
I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.
Why should there be? Regular gamers don't want "conservative games", they want GAMES THAT AREN'T POLITICAL INDOCTRINATION. And in that sense the plethora of OSR games are doing very well, my own products included.
You advocated deliberately antagonizing SJWs -- as I have bolded above. That sounds different than just releasing apolitical games. As for how well products are doing: the main numbers I have are from Kickstarter. The top OSR Kickstarters in recent times include:
Old School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/exaltedfuneral/old-school-essentials-advanced-fantasy) : $291k
Worlds Without Number (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637945166/worlds-without-number) : $223k
The more explicitly liberal RPG releases include
Thirsty Sword Lesbians (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/evilhat/thirsty-sword-lesbians) : $298k
Coyote and Crow (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/) : $1,073k
These are slightly ahead of the OSR releases, and at least in the range of top other recent non-OSR releases, like:
Grim Hollow: The Monster Grimoire (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/977277590/grim-hollow-the-monster-grimoire-0) : $1,348k
Grim Hollow: The Players Guide (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/977277590/grim-hollow-the-players-guide) : $741k
More Magic Items for 5E (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thegriffonssaddlebag/more-magic-items-for-5e-the-griffons-saddlebag-book-one) : $663k
Twilight: 2000 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1192053011/twilight-2000-roleplaying-in-the-wwiii-that-never-was) : $651k
Creatures: Complete Monster Compendium for 5E (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1176616619/book-of-creatures-200-npcs-and-monsters-for-5th-edition) : $531k
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types
Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.
The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.
I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.
Why should there be? Regular gamers don't want "conservative games", they want GAMES THAT AREN'T POLITICAL INDOCTRINATION. And in that sense the plethora of OSR games are doing very well, my own products included.
Yup, 100% on point. A good system, fun setting, and a group looking to have fun is what we want. Leave your baggage at the door.
I would not consider Kickstarter an indicator of anything other than the ability to gather money from a bunch of people into a pile. Even Kickstarters I like.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2021, 08:31:32 PM
I would not consider Kickstarter an indicator of anything other than the ability to gather money from a bunch of people into a pile. Even Kickstarters I like.
Aside from the large amount of indulgence buying happening; There is a big difference between raising a ton of money on kickstarter and having real people still playing your game 5 years later...
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 10:25:40 AM
we don't see WOTC people getting cancelled.
Yes, we do. Mike Mearls.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 29, 2021, 09:27:36 PM
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 10:25:40 AM
we don't see WOTC people getting cancelled.
Yes, we do. Mike Mearls.
I don't remember any controversies involving Mike Mearls, or attempts to cancel him
say what?
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 09:56:13 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 29, 2021, 09:27:36 PM
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 10:25:40 AM
we don't see WOTC people getting cancelled.
Yes, we do. Mike Mearls.
I don't remember any controversies involving Mike Mearls, or attempts to cancel him
say what?
Search for #firemikemearls on Twitter. It's been a pet cause of many Pop/Death Cultists for a few years now.
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 08:19:25 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
Why should there be? Regular gamers don't want "conservative games", they want GAMES THAT AREN'T POLITICAL INDOCTRINATION. And in that sense the plethora of OSR games are doing very well, my own products included.
You advocated deliberately antagonizing SJWs -- as I have bolded above. That sounds different than just releasing apolitical games.
An apolitical game IS antagonistic to SJWs... remember one of their creeds; "Silence Is Violence!"
If you are not bowing and scraping in obeisance to the current SJW idol then you are an enemy. To them being apolitical IS political.
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 08:19:25 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types
Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.
The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.
I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.
Why should there be? Regular gamers don't want "conservative games", they want GAMES THAT AREN'T POLITICAL INDOCTRINATION. And in that sense the plethora of OSR games are doing very well, my own products included.
You advocated deliberately antagonizing SJWs -- as I have bolded above. That sounds different than just releasing apolitical games. As for how well products are doing: the main numbers I have are from Kickstarter. The top OSR Kickstarters in recent times include:
Old School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/exaltedfuneral/old-school-essentials-advanced-fantasy) : $291k
Worlds Without Number (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637945166/worlds-without-number) : $223k
The more explicitly liberal RPG releases include
Thirsty Sword Lesbians (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/evilhat/thirsty-sword-lesbians) : $298k
Coyote and Crow (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/) : $1,073k
These are slightly ahead of the OSR releases, and at least in the range of top other recent non-OSR releases, like:
Grim Hollow: The Monster Grimoire (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/977277590/grim-hollow-the-monster-grimoire-0) : $1,348k
Grim Hollow: The Players Guide (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/977277590/grim-hollow-the-players-guide) : $741k
More Magic Items for 5E (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thegriffonssaddlebag/more-magic-items-for-5e-the-griffons-saddlebag-book-one) : $663k
Twilight: 2000 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1192053011/twilight-2000-roleplaying-in-the-wwiii-that-never-was) : $651k
Creatures: Complete Monster Compendium for 5E (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1176616619/book-of-creatures-200-npcs-and-monsters-for-5th-edition) : $531k
It's meaningless. Almost no one will ever actually play sword lesbians or Coyote & Crow, even if they ever do deliver and they aren't just leftist scams. People put money there in order to brag about it on Twitter for virtue signals. There aren't any Thirsty Sword Lesbian conventions.
The OSR is actually played.
Quote from: Shasarak on June 29, 2021, 04:50:22 PMEven Gay people understand the concept of gender identity.
You are literally the worst person ever. :)
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
Quote from: mightybrain on June 29, 2021, 07:09:13 PM
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 10:25:40 AMwe don't see WOTC people getting cancelled.
I seem to remember Mike Mearls, Chris Perkins, Satine Phoenix, and Chris Crawford all being on the receiving end of various defamatory statements over social media.
They blend in so well that whatever they did gets forgiven or forgotten. Mearls especially is good at blending into the woke mob.
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
Exactly!
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 08:19:25 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM
Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here. You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types
Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.
The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.
I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.
Why should there be? Regular gamers don't want "conservative games", they want GAMES THAT AREN'T POLITICAL INDOCTRINATION. And in that sense the plethora of OSR games are doing very well, my own products included.
You advocated deliberately antagonizing SJWs -- as I have bolded above. That sounds different than just releasing apolitical games. As for how well products are doing: the main numbers I have are from Kickstarter. The top OSR Kickstarters in recent times include:
Old School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/exaltedfuneral/old-school-essentials-advanced-fantasy) : $291k
Worlds Without Number (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637945166/worlds-without-number) : $223k
The more explicitly liberal RPG releases include
Thirsty Sword Lesbians (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/evilhat/thirsty-sword-lesbians) : $298k
Coyote and Crow (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/connoralexander/coyote-and-crow/) : $1,073k
These are slightly ahead of the OSR releases, and at least in the range of top other recent non-OSR releases, like:
Grim Hollow: The Monster Grimoire (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/977277590/grim-hollow-the-monster-grimoire-0) : $1,348k
Grim Hollow: The Players Guide (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/977277590/grim-hollow-the-players-guide) : $741k
More Magic Items for 5E (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thegriffonssaddlebag/more-magic-items-for-5e-the-griffons-saddlebag-book-one) : $663k
Twilight: 2000 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1192053011/twilight-2000-roleplaying-in-the-wwiii-that-never-was) : $651k
Creatures: Complete Monster Compendium for 5E (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1176616619/book-of-creatures-200-npcs-and-monsters-for-5th-edition) : $531k
So...Overtly leftists games are doing better on an overtly leftist funding platform? Interesting.
Quote from: Jaeger on June 29, 2021, 09:15:50 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2021, 08:31:32 PM
I would not consider Kickstarter an indicator of anything other than the ability to gather money from a bunch of people into a pile. Even Kickstarters I like.
Aside from the large amount of indulgence buying happening; There is a big difference between raising a ton of money on kickstarter and having real people still playing your game 5 years later...
I still have yet to play a game of 7th Sea 2nd edition.
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 09:56:13 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 29, 2021, 09:27:36 PM
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 10:25:40 AM
we don't see WOTC people getting cancelled.
Yes, we do. Mike Mearls.
s.
I don't remember any controversies involving Mike Mearls, or attempts to cancel him
say what?
Wow that's a big one to have missed. Pundit was on about it for month
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
Exactly!
Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
Exactly!
Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?
Well, instead of trolling, you could explain it to them politely. Who knows what could happen once they understand the conversation. They might even agree with you.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
Exactly!
Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?
Did they steal the IP? Because that is what you claimed. From what I've read WOTC let the trademark lapse. Filing for a trademark when someone let it laps is not theft. If that's incorrect, then share, because that information wasn't in your post, unless I'm missing something. Its possible I did miss it, I'm on painkillers and not exactly 100% on at this point.
If the lapse is not what you are talking about it, then explain further. Show us what was stolen and how. From what I saw you just made the accusation and just let it hang there.
Being called a low information gamer by the likes of you, I'll take that as a compliment. Do you think calling people names like Chad and low information gamer adds anything to the conversation? I've found you to be very disingenuous in past posts, so I'm going to go ahead and guess you already know that it doesn't.
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 30, 2021, 02:50:27 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
Exactly!
Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?
Well, instead of trolling, you could explain it to them politely. Who knows what could happen once they understand the conversation. They might even agree with you.
It was already explained. In this thread. By Pundit even, in addition to others. It's not trolling to be frustrated that people are commenting on a topic they have not actually read, right?
But sure. In summary:
Jayson Elliot, who originally launched Gygax Magazine in 2012, and now publishes Top Secret, had the TSR name. He acquired it legitimately in 2011, and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. (and Luke) was involved at the time so he fully understood that trademark acquisition.
So are we clear, to begin with, that this is not a WOTC/Hasbro issue? That's not who had the TSR trademark. They had lost it over a decade ago.
Jeff R. Leason and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. then took advantage of an accidental brief lapse in trademark renewal (apparently they took too long in filing some paperwork) to snipe the mark from Jayson Elliot. You know, rather than calling his friend and saying, "whoops you're about to miss a deadline you might want to fix that" he instead jumped on it and claimed rights to it himself. Even though, again, he had been involved in acquiring the rights originally for Jayson Elliot (and perhaps that's why Ernest knew of the renewal date and perhaps why Elliot didn't get the postcard from the PTO office, but that is speculation).
Ernest then, in a grandiose manner, claimed he was being magnanimous and licensing the name back to Jayson Elliot for $10 a year (under a license he could revoke at any time I believe). And claimed Elliot had agreed, though he had not they were just negotiating.
Jayson Elliot then told Ernest to go F himself, and made it clear he had never agreed. Or to be specific, ""Just one clarification, we never paid any money to them or acknowledged their claim to the trademark. They made an offer which we considered very recently, and chose to reject," Elliot said."
So yeah, you can quibble with the characterization that Ernest and Leason stole the IP from Elliot. It's more like Elliot accidentally dropped his wallet on the ground and Ernest and Leason saw it happen, picked it up, and then tried to sell it back to him as long as they could also use his wallet at any time and might at some point just demand he give them the wallet.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 30, 2021, 02:50:27 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
Exactly!
Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?
Well, instead of trolling, you could explain it to them politely. Who knows what could happen once they understand the conversation. They might even agree with you.
It was already explained. In this thread. By Pundit even, in addition to others. It's not trolling to be frustrated that people are commenting on a topic they have not actually read, right?
But sure. In summary:
Jayson Elliot, who originally launched Gygax Magazine in 2012, and now publishes Top Secret, had the TSR name. He acquired it legitimately in 2011, and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. (and Luke) was involved at the time so he fully understood that trademark acquisition.
So are we clear, to begin with, that this is not a WOTC/Hasbro issue? That's not who had the TSR trademark. They had lost it over a decade ago.
Jeff R. Leason and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. then took advantage of an accidental brief lapse in trademark renewal (apparently they took too long in filing some paperwork) to snipe the mark from Jayson Elliot. You know, rather than calling his friend and saying, "whoops you're about to miss a deadline you might want to fix that" he instead jumped on it and claimed rights to it himself. Even though, again, he had been involved in acquiring the rights originally for Jayson Elliot (and perhaps that's why Ernest knew of the renewal date and perhaps why Elliot didn't get the postcard from the PTO office, but that is speculation).
Ernest then, in a grandiose manner, claimed he was being magnanimous and licensing the name back to Jayson Elliot for $10 a year (under a license he could revoke at any time I believe). And claimed Elliot had agreed, though he had not they were just negotiating.
Jayson Elliot then told Ernest to go F himself, and made it clear he had never agreed. Or to be specific, ""Just one clarification, we never paid any money to them or acknowledged their claim to the trademark. They made an offer which we considered very recently, and chose to reject," Elliot said."
So yeah, you can quibble with the characterization that Ernest and Leason stole the IP from Elliot. It's more like Elliot accidentally dropped his wallet on the ground and Ernest and Leason saw it happen, picked it up, and then tried to sell it back to him as long as they could also use his wallet at any time and might at some point just demand he give them the wallet.
So, they didn't steal it. They legally acquired it. You admit it, good. (and by the way, most of the information you included above, was no where to be found in this thread)
Quote from: KingCheops on June 30, 2021, 10:21:43 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on June 29, 2021, 09:15:50 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2021, 08:31:32 PM
I would not consider Kickstarter an indicator of anything other than the ability to gather money from a bunch of people into a pile. Even Kickstarters I like.
Aside from the large amount of indulgence buying happening; There is a big difference between raising a ton of money on kickstarter and having real people still playing your game 5 years later...
I still have yet to play a game of 7th Sea 2nd edition.
We play over Discord Saturday evenings. Come play with us!
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PMIt's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?
Chad? Really? Thats the best you can come up with? You truly have gotten pathetic in your trolling.
Keep struggling.
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 04:19:49 PM
So, they didn't steal it. They legally acquired it. You admit it, good. (and by the way, most of the information you included above, was no where to be found in this thread)
Thats because Mist has become a compulsive liar. Does not matter what was said. He'll lie about it sooner or later and then whimper about how mean everyone is and how they deliberately misunderstand/misinterpret him.
ad nausium
The name Chad is used as slang for the tall, blond, ripped frat boy type that bangs multiple chicks a week. Is that what insults look like these days? Will he call you God Emperor next? It also looks like some loose language on stealing and some serious moral judgements coming from a lawyer (which to be honest, he could be the most upstanding one ever, but the reputation for the profession exists for a reason).
Oh my fucking God. As a trans person myself, I think this shit is ridiculous. This is why I don't use twitter. It's a cesspool of morons and cultists and cultist morons.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 30, 2021, 05:53:53 PM
Oh my fucking God. As a trans person myself, I think this shit is ridiculous. This is why I don't use twitter. It's a cesspool of morons and cultists and cultist morons.
You left out the moron cultlsts...How dare you, you bigot. ;D
I don't understand why Ernie couldn't spout one of the meaningless tautology slogans like "trans rights are human rights" unless he's a conservative or a TERF or something and refuses to lie about it.
Is he a conservative? that would explain everything because The twitterati want to send conservatives to the gas chambers
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 30, 2021, 06:24:38 PM
I don't understand why Ernie couldn't spout one of the meaningless tautology slogans like "trans rights are human rights" unless he's a conservative or a TERF or something and refuses to lie about it.
Is he a conservative? that would explain everything because The twitterati want to send conservatives to the gas chambers
We need to start a "Forgive Ernie Gygax" campaign.
Quote from: Jam The MF on June 30, 2021, 06:27:09 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 30, 2021, 06:24:38 PM
I don't understand why Ernie couldn't spout one of the meaningless tautology slogans like "trans rights are human rights" unless he's a conservative or a TERF or something and refuses to lie about it.
Is he a conservative? that would explain everything because The twitterati want to send conservatives to the gas chambers
We need to start a "Forgive Ernie Gygax" campaign.
He just needs to die his hair pink, identify as trans, and call lesbians bigots for refusing to have sex with him, then they'll immediately forgive him for everything.
I wish I was joking.
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 04:19:49 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 30, 2021, 02:50:27 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
Exactly!
Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?
Well, instead of trolling, you could explain it to them politely. Who knows what could happen once they understand the conversation. They might even agree with you.
It was already explained. In this thread. By Pundit even, in addition to others. It's not trolling to be frustrated that people are commenting on a topic they have not actually read, right?
But sure. In summary:
Jayson Elliot, who originally launched Gygax Magazine in 2012, and now publishes Top Secret, had the TSR name. He acquired it legitimately in 2011, and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. (and Luke) was involved at the time so he fully understood that trademark acquisition.
So are we clear, to begin with, that this is not a WOTC/Hasbro issue? That's not who had the TSR trademark. They had lost it over a decade ago.
Jeff R. Leason and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. then took advantage of an accidental brief lapse in trademark renewal (apparently they took too long in filing some paperwork) to snipe the mark from Jayson Elliot. You know, rather than calling his friend and saying, "whoops you're about to miss a deadline you might want to fix that" he instead jumped on it and claimed rights to it himself. Even though, again, he had been involved in acquiring the rights originally for Jayson Elliot (and perhaps that's why Ernest knew of the renewal date and perhaps why Elliot didn't get the postcard from the PTO office, but that is speculation).
Ernest then, in a grandiose manner, claimed he was being magnanimous and licensing the name back to Jayson Elliot for $10 a year (under a license he could revoke at any time I believe). And claimed Elliot had agreed, though he had not they were just negotiating.
Jayson Elliot then told Ernest to go F himself, and made it clear he had never agreed. Or to be specific, ""Just one clarification, we never paid any money to them or acknowledged their claim to the trademark. They made an offer which we considered very recently, and chose to reject," Elliot said."
So yeah, you can quibble with the characterization that Ernest and Leason stole the IP from Elliot. It's more like Elliot accidentally dropped his wallet on the ground and Ernest and Leason saw it happen, picked it up, and then tried to sell it back to him as long as they could also use his wallet at any time and might at some point just demand he give them the wallet.
So, they didn't steal it. They legally acquired it. You admit it, good. (and by the way, most of the information you included above, was no where to be found in this thread)
If by "legal" you mean the sniped it at the patent and trademark office, yes. But if by legal you mean they would win in court, almost certainly no. Elliot was still using the trademark in commerce and had been continually doing so for a decade. He can fairly easily challenge the application from Ernest with the PTO, and he will win. It's just costly and takes time. Which is bullshit. He REALLY shouldn't have to deal with his "friend" sniping the trademark from him, particularly since his friend was a participant in Elliot getting the trademark for that company to begin with and all along Ernest claimed to be supportive of Elliot and his company. It was a sleazy backstabbing maneuver by Ernest. And it sure as F has nothing to do with anything WOTC or Hasbro did.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 06:54:06 PM
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 04:19:49 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 30, 2021, 02:50:27 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
Exactly!
Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?
Well, instead of trolling, you could explain it to them politely. Who knows what could happen once they understand the conversation. They might even agree with you.
It was already explained. In this thread. By Pundit even, in addition to others. It's not trolling to be frustrated that people are commenting on a topic they have not actually read, right?
But sure. In summary:
Jayson Elliot, who originally launched Gygax Magazine in 2012, and now publishes Top Secret, had the TSR name. He acquired it legitimately in 2011, and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. (and Luke) was involved at the time so he fully understood that trademark acquisition.
So are we clear, to begin with, that this is not a WOTC/Hasbro issue? That's not who had the TSR trademark. They had lost it over a decade ago.
Jeff R. Leason and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. then took advantage of an accidental brief lapse in trademark renewal (apparently they took too long in filing some paperwork) to snipe the mark from Jayson Elliot. You know, rather than calling his friend and saying, "whoops you're about to miss a deadline you might want to fix that" he instead jumped on it and claimed rights to it himself. Even though, again, he had been involved in acquiring the rights originally for Jayson Elliot (and perhaps that's why Ernest knew of the renewal date and perhaps why Elliot didn't get the postcard from the PTO office, but that is speculation).
Ernest then, in a grandiose manner, claimed he was being magnanimous and licensing the name back to Jayson Elliot for $10 a year (under a license he could revoke at any time I believe). And claimed Elliot had agreed, though he had not they were just negotiating.
Jayson Elliot then told Ernest to go F himself, and made it clear he had never agreed. Or to be specific, ""Just one clarification, we never paid any money to them or acknowledged their claim to the trademark. They made an offer which we considered very recently, and chose to reject," Elliot said."
So yeah, you can quibble with the characterization that Ernest and Leason stole the IP from Elliot. It's more like Elliot accidentally dropped his wallet on the ground and Ernest and Leason saw it happen, picked it up, and then tried to sell it back to him as long as they could also use his wallet at any time and might at some point just demand he give them the wallet.
So, they didn't steal it. They legally acquired it. You admit it, good. (and by the way, most of the information you included above, was no where to be found in this thread)
If by "legal" you mean the sniped it at the patent and trademark office, yes. But if by legal you mean they would win in court, almost certainly no. Elliot was still using the trademark in commerce and had been continually doing so for a decade. He can fairly easily challenge the application from Ernest with the PTO, and he will win. It's just costly and takes time. Which is bullshit. He REALLY shouldn't have to deal with his "friend" sniping the trademark from him, particularly since his friend was a participant in Elliot getting the trademark for that company to begin with and all along Ernest claimed to be supportive of Elliot and his company. It was a sleazy backstabbing maneuver by Ernest. And it sure as F has nothing to do with anything WOTC or Hasbro did.
Why do you place legal in quotations. Is it illegal to file for a trademark that someone has let lapsed? No, its not. In fact I'd be willing to bet it happens all the time.
I don't defend EGG's actions, not at all. If that is indeed how it went down, it was pretty and underhanded. That doesn't meant it wasn't legally acquired. You lied, or exaggerated based on your personal feelings about the subject and then tried to say the other people weren't informed after they commented on your lie.
We might have found common ground if you hadn't gone full progressive troll on everyone.
While we're being progressive trolls, is there any truth to the statement I saw elsewhere that one of the things Ernie said in the interview (or its follow-ups) was that women shouldn't role-play (possibly just with him) because their brains can't handle it?
Quote from: ScytheSong on June 30, 2021, 07:52:54 PM
While we're being progressive trolls, is there any truth to the statement I saw elsewhere that one of the things Ernie said in the interview (or its follow-ups) was that women shouldn't role-play (possibly just with him) because their brains can't handle it?
I wouldn't be surprised
Quote from: ScytheSong on June 30, 2021, 07:52:54 PM
While we're being progressive trolls, is there any truth to the statement I saw elsewhere that one of the things Ernie said in the interview (or its follow-ups) was that women shouldn't role-play (possibly just with him) because their brains can't handle it?
I'd want to see a screencap or archive of it. It's one thing to resist kowtowing to a tiny minority (sorry BCT, but trans people really are a small grouping in the grand scheme of things). It's another to write off half the fucking population as customers.
What has Ernie Gygax ever produced? Not promised. Produced and sold.
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but it seems to me that a dozen OSR guys have far more RPG credits and experience running an OSR (or 5e 3PPP) company than Ernie and they should have sniped the TSR logo instead.
Although, I'm kinda skeptical of the value of the TSR logo without any of the IP.
Does anyone know if Ernie has control of the TSR trade dress as well?
Although, I've seen plenty of 3PP modules since the 3e D20 rush with people obviously copying the TSR trade dress.
Quote from: ScytheSong on June 30, 2021, 07:52:54 PM
While we're being progressive trolls, is there any truth to the statement I saw elsewhere that one of the things Ernie said in the interview (or its follow-ups) was that women shouldn't role-play (possibly just with him) because their brains can't handle it?
Was that before or after he said that women were poopie heads with heads made of poop?
:o
Have to rate that one as a: Yeah Nah, not true.
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 07:08:10 PM
Why do you place legal in quotations. Is it illegal to file for a trademark that someone has let lapsed? No, its not. In fact I'd be willing to bet it happens all the time.
I don't defend EGG's actions, not at all. If that is indeed how it went down, it was pretty and underhanded. That doesn't meant it wasn't legally acquired. You lied, or exaggerated based on your personal feelings about the subject and then tried to say the other people weren't informed after they commented on your lie.
We might have found common ground if you hadn't gone full progressive troll on everyone.
MB ganked the HeroQuest title from Chaosium, HasBorg or WOTC acquired the rights but let the title slip. So Both Game Zone AND the original Heroquest people both nabbed it back for their own use. Then Hasbro re-acquired the title somehow and released a new edition recently.
Bethsada just recently acquired my old Starfield title since my company had been DOA about 20 years. Hilarious is the part where they scouted me first with questions about the game and company on the sly. Few months ago had another scouting me by pretending to be a fan of a character and asking ALOT of background questions. I suspect this will pop up in something later too.
Yes. TMs laps on a regular basis and get picked up by someone else. What a bunch of THIEVES!
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 30, 2021, 09:27:38 PM
Quote from: ScytheSong on June 30, 2021, 07:52:54 PM
While we're being progressive trolls, is there any truth to the statement I saw elsewhere that one of the things Ernie said in the interview (or its follow-ups) was that women shouldn't role-play (possibly just with him) because their brains can't handle it?
I'd want to see a screencap or archive of it. It's one thing to resist kowtowing to a tiny minority (sorry BCT, but trans people really are a small grouping in the grand scheme of things). It's another to write off half the fucking population as customers.
Considering one of the early players was a girl. I'd lay good odds this is a cultist fabrication.
That or he did day it, but its taken out of context, as usual, somehow.
Remember the old blowup the SJWs claiming proof Gary was SEXIST because women in AD&D had strength limits! Hell some village idiots here were agreeing with them even.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 30, 2021, 09:27:38 PM
Quote from: ScytheSong on June 30, 2021, 07:52:54 PM
While we're being progressive trolls, is there any truth to the statement I saw elsewhere that one of the things Ernie said in the interview (or its follow-ups) was that women shouldn't role-play (possibly just with him) because their brains can't handle it?
I'd want to see a screencap or archive of it. It's one thing to resist kowtowing to a tiny minority (sorry BCT, but trans people really are a small grouping in the grand scheme of things). It's another to write off half the fucking population as customers.
You have nothing to be sorry for.
And to be entirely honest the transgender umbrella has gotten so big that it's probably much bigger than anybody thinks:
https://www.presenttensejournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/tumblr_mx3a40uWuE1rfwfq9o1_1280.jpg
How many of you here can fit under there?
Every person is their own unique gender. The science says so: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5824932/
QuoteThus in our own species there are as many different gender variants as there are individuals, 7 billion plus.
QuoteThus in our own species there are as many different gender variants as there are individuals, 7 billion plus.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4-eWbqlEc-c/mqdefault.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/M5Flr-hQHcY/hqdefault.jpg)
Quote from: Spinachcat on June 30, 2021, 09:46:12 PM
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but it seems to me that a dozen OSR guys have far more RPG credits and experience running an OSR (or 5e 3PPP) company than Ernie and they should have sniped the TSR logo instead.
After a little internet search, and ignoring all the recent promised projects because I don't know and don't care, these are the Gygax children's credits:
- Ernie: Lost City of Gaxmoor, Dungeon Geomorphs Set Two: Caves and Caverns
- Luke: Lost City of Gaxmoor, GW1: Legion of Gold
Given their ages at the time of publication, and that all 3 of those book(lets) has Gary Gygax Sr. as a co-author, that means neither Ernie nor Luke have any real RPG credits. Their only connection to old TSR is their last name and maybe some personal reminiscences.
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 07:08:10 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 06:54:06 PM
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 04:19:49 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 30, 2021, 02:50:27 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM
Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"
Stealing? Really?
WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.
Exactly!
Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?
Well, instead of trolling, you could explain it to them politely. Who knows what could happen once they understand the conversation. They might even agree with you.
It was already explained. In this thread. By Pundit even, in addition to others. It's not trolling to be frustrated that people are commenting on a topic they have not actually read, right?
But sure. In summary:
Jayson Elliot, who originally launched Gygax Magazine in 2012, and now publishes Top Secret, had the TSR name. He acquired it legitimately in 2011, and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. (and Luke) was involved at the time so he fully understood that trademark acquisition.
So are we clear, to begin with, that this is not a WOTC/Hasbro issue? That's not who had the TSR trademark. They had lost it over a decade ago.
Jeff R. Leason and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. then took advantage of an accidental brief lapse in trademark renewal (apparently they took too long in filing some paperwork) to snipe the mark from Jayson Elliot. You know, rather than calling his friend and saying, "whoops you're about to miss a deadline you might want to fix that" he instead jumped on it and claimed rights to it himself. Even though, again, he had been involved in acquiring the rights originally for Jayson Elliot (and perhaps that's why Ernest knew of the renewal date and perhaps why Elliot didn't get the postcard from the PTO office, but that is speculation).
Ernest then, in a grandiose manner, claimed he was being magnanimous and licensing the name back to Jayson Elliot for $10 a year (under a license he could revoke at any time I believe). And claimed Elliot had agreed, though he had not they were just negotiating.
Jayson Elliot then told Ernest to go F himself, and made it clear he had never agreed. Or to be specific, ""Just one clarification, we never paid any money to them or acknowledged their claim to the trademark. They made an offer which we considered very recently, and chose to reject," Elliot said."
So yeah, you can quibble with the characterization that Ernest and Leason stole the IP from Elliot. It's more like Elliot accidentally dropped his wallet on the ground and Ernest and Leason saw it happen, picked it up, and then tried to sell it back to him as long as they could also use his wallet at any time and might at some point just demand he give them the wallet.
So, they didn't steal it. They legally acquired it. You admit it, good. (and by the way, most of the information you included above, was no where to be found in this thread)
If by "legal" you mean the sniped it at the patent and trademark office, yes. But if by legal you mean they would win in court, almost certainly no. Elliot was still using the trademark in commerce and had been continually doing so for a decade. He can fairly easily challenge the application from Ernest with the PTO, and he will win. It's just costly and takes time. Which is bullshit. He REALLY shouldn't have to deal with his "friend" sniping the trademark from him, particularly since his friend was a participant in Elliot getting the trademark for that company to begin with and all along Ernest claimed to be supportive of Elliot and his company. It was a sleazy backstabbing maneuver by Ernest. And it sure as F has nothing to do with anything WOTC or Hasbro did.
Why do you place legal in quotations. Is it illegal to file for a trademark that someone has let lapsed? No, its not. In fact I'd be willing to bet it happens all the time.
I don't defend EGG's actions, not at all. If that is indeed how it went down, it was pretty and underhanded. That doesn't meant it wasn't legally acquired. You lied, or exaggerated based on your personal feelings about the subject and then tried to say the other people weren't informed after they commented on your lie.
We might have found common ground if you hadn't gone full progressive troll on everyone.
LOL now I am a progressive because I argued with you? Ah, OK. See I thought you just hadn't followed the topic and were letting your ego get in the way. But now I realize you're just a douchebag. Gotcha.
Let's see, I proved that you were pulling information out of thin air that wasn't in this thread and that you were lying about them stealing. In addition I was at last fairly cordial after your petulant name calling. You were wrong on both counts and just keep ignoring it, then have the temerity to call other people names. It was your immature behavior that set the tone. I've seen your posts on this forum before and a progressive troll is exactly what you are. You know it, and its obvious from other users that they know it as well.
As this is straying out of the bounds of roleplaying I'm going to end my involvement in the discussion here so Pundit doesn't have to pull out the ban hammer.
Quote from: Pat on June 30, 2021, 10:56:56 PM
Given their ages at the time of publication, and that all 3 of those book(lets) has Gary Gygax Sr. as a co-author, that means neither Ernie nor Luke have any real RPG credits. Their only connection to old TSR is their last name and maybe some personal reminiscences.
Wow. Thank you Pat.
40+ years, zero credits and now Ernie is the RPG publisher deluxe?
Quote from: Spinachcat on June 30, 2021, 11:54:40 PM40+ years, zero credits and now Ernie is the RPG publisher deluxe?
Most of the time the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
On occasion, the apple is catapulted into the next dimension before hitting the ground.
Quote from: BronzeDragon on July 01, 2021, 12:03:50 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat on June 30, 2021, 11:54:40 PM40+ years, zero credits and now Ernie is the RPG publisher deluxe?
Most of the time the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
On occasion, the apple is catapulted into the next dimension before hitting the ground.
That's not really fair. Children don't normally practice the same profession as their parents, and even when they do it's very rare when the child of someone notable matches their parent. Johann Christian Bach is an accomplished composer, but not in the same league as his father, Johann Sebastian. Christopher Tolkien is basically an editor. And those are among the more successful examples. Regression toward the mean, lightning doesn't strike twice... however you want to phrase it.
You can't blame Ernie and Luke Gygax for not being their father. But it's also silly to expect them to be the second coming. Let their own track records speak for themselves.
Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 11:09:44 AM
and then we have MINOR figures
Tom Wham: not really involved with D&D at all --what did he even do?
Hey, you're talking about the guy who made 'Awful Green Things from Outer Space', and 'Snit's Revenge', not to mention stuff like 'Search for the Emperor's Treasure' which made Dragon magazine occasionally not a total waste of money. Well, just that one time. The other time was Temple of Poseidon.
Not sweet shit to do with RPGs including D&D, but the presence of those games in the early TSR era make him a significant figure, at least to me :(
Also, and back on topic, Mistwell is so goddamn dumb he doesn't even know what the word 'steal' means! That's the funniest thing I've read on this forum since the guy pining away for all those years due to a lack of gay Rust Monsters in modules :)
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:31:50 PM
1. The person who responded was whoever is in charge of the Giant Lands account, probably Lanata, almost certainly not Ernie who looks like he couldn't be in charge of a jar with a bee in it.
Thanks for the correction; my memory had slipped and I hadn't gone back to check the receipts.
Quote
2. It was very clearly a statement of disgust at the person DEMANDING that Ernie recite a list of Enforced Speech Statements Of Diversity, OR ELSE. That was what was going on there, and it was disgusting. It was the disgusting act of a Maoist totalitarian demanding that Ernie recite the Communist Slogan or be sent to the killing fields.
According to a couple of the gods* on one of the ENWorld threads,
that doesn't matter.
Quote from: https://www.enworld.org/threads/tsr3-blames-widespread-pushback-on-wotc.681048/post-8324508Yeah, he's calling her disgusting for one of three things: for being trans, for supporting trans rights, or for asking him to show his support for trans rights. The difference between the three, insofar as it reflects on his character, doesn't seem particularly significant. He's transphobic no matter how you slice it, and particularly nasty about it too.
*You will find very few human beings in Internet discourse these days. Most of the world is divided between gods--those who have recognized their own divinity and that of others who hold to the correct way--and monsters--those who deny the gods and wallow in deliberate malevolence. Which is which is left as an exercise for the reader.
Quote from: Pat on June 30, 2021, 10:56:56 PM
Given their ages at the time of publication, and that all 3 of those book(lets) has Gary Gygax Sr. as a co-author, that means neither Ernie nor Luke have any real RPG credits. Their only connection to old TSR is their last name and maybe some personal reminiscences.
Both were part of the original gaming/playtest group and helped shape the game into its final form with whatever input Gary got from hands on use with players.
Past that seems like they havent done a whole lot RPG-wise? Have they been playtesters for any other games?
Quote from: yancy on July 01, 2021, 03:17:38 AM
and then we have MINOR figures
Tom Wham: not really involved with D&D at all --what did he even do?
Lets see. Illustrated for TSR and more importantly got his relative, Trampier, to illustrate for TSR. Created about a dozen board games for TSR and others. Also wrote uncredited 90% of the Iron Dragons novel after Estes bailed. Believe he co-founded a little game company but probably wrong on that. Hasnt done much since that am aware of. (addendum: Apparently his last published game was in 2008 or so.)
Games:
Awful Green Things From Outer Space. And two mini-expansions.
King of the Tabletop that was later renamed by a publisher as Kings and Things.
Elefant Hunt
Snits Revenge and Snit Smashing and at least one mini-expansion.
File 13: A game about designing games.
Planet Smashers
Search for the Emperor's Treasure - one of the few of his games I have not seen, but keep hearing of.
Apparently worked on the SimCity CCG
And a bunch of other games.
So what really was said and by who? Because I've got a local player telling me that Ernie really did post something online that was offensive about Trans people.
Worst I could find was apparently this? "There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity."
Which in all honesty is not all that bad or unreasonable. Especially now with the loony fringe of the LGBT community hellbent on antagonizing everyone and severely damaging any progress had been made in getting perople to actually relax and be more accepting.
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 11:36:48 PM
Let's see, I proved that you were pulling information out of thin air that wasn't in this thread and that you were lying about them stealing. In addition I was at last fairly cordial after your petulant name calling. You were wrong on both counts and just keep ignoring it, then have the temerity to call other people names. It was your immature behavior that set the tone. I've seen your posts on this forum before and a progressive troll is exactly what you are. You know it, and its obvious from other users that they know it as well.
As this is straying out of the bounds of roleplaying I'm going to end my involvement in the discussion here so Pundit doesn't have to pull out the ban hammer.
I assure you, whatever you think I am, I am no progressive. And anyone who knows me knows that's the case. More often than not I am called a right-winger by progressives. It sounds like something you just call people who disagree with you. They must be a progressive if they don't see the wisdom of your arguments. Which is foolish, but then most of your posts in this thread were foolish and we already established you're a low information poster on this topic :)
Quote from: Omega on July 01, 2021, 02:34:09 PM
So what really was said and by who? Because I've got a local player telling me that Ernie really did post something online that was offensive about Trans people.
Worst I could find was apparently this? "There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity."
Which in all honesty is not all that bad or unreasonable. Especially now with the loony fringe of the LGBT community hellbent on antagonizing everyone and severely damaging any progress had been made in getting perople to actually relax and be more accepting.
I'm not sure. I haven't listened to the full interview. When I searched to see if someone else had a summary, though, I found that apparently Ernie had posted this:
(https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/gygax-jr.-wotc.jpg)
This is a screenshot that I saw on the Bell of Lost Souls blog, here:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/07/rpg-tsr-games-claims-to-be-attacked-by-wotc.html
That Twitter account was deleted, but I can see other references to the cached / saved message. The article also notes a recent post on Ernie Gygax's Facebook.
One more point of information that may or may not help: I just found out Ernie's partner, LaNasa, is the same LaNasa who ran for office in North Carolina and lost because there was video evidence that he used the "Two girls and a tub of grits" method of choosing who got a promotion.
Quote from: ScytheSong on July 01, 2021, 04:33:15 PM
One more point of information that may or may not help: I just found out Ernie's partner, LaNasa, is the same LaNasa who ran for office in North Carolina and lost because there was video evidence that he used the "Two girls and a tub of grits" method of choosing who got a promotion.
Yes. Ernie's business partner is the same Justin LaNassa who posted to Youtube a video of him narrating a wrestling match in a tub of grits between two of his female employees to see who would get a promotion. You can read more about it here (https://portcitydaily.com/municipal-elections/2020/02/23/wilmington-republican-primary-rivals-spar-over-candidates-youtube-videos/).
Quote from: Mistwell on July 01, 2021, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: ScytheSong on July 01, 2021, 04:33:15 PM
One more point of information that may or may not help: I just found out Ernie's partner, LaNasa, is the same LaNasa who ran for office in North Carolina and lost because there was video evidence that he used the "Two girls and a tub of grits" method of choosing who got a promotion.
Yes. Ernie's business partner is the same Justin LaNassa who posted to Youtube a video of him narrating a wrestling match in a tub of grits between two of his female employees to see who would get a promotion. You can read more about it here (https://portcitydaily.com/municipal-elections/2020/02/23/wilmington-republican-primary-rivals-spar-over-candidates-youtube-videos/).
I've always preferred jello
Quote from: ScytheSong on July 01, 2021, 04:33:15 PM
One more point of information that may or may not help: I just found out Ernie's partner, LaNasa, is the same LaNasa who ran for office in North Carolina and lost because there was video evidence that he used the "Two girls and a tub of grits" method of choosing who got a promotion.
I love merit based systems.
Quote from: Omega on July 01, 2021, 02:34:09 PM
Worst I could find was apparently this? "There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity."
I thought it was the SJWs enforcing gender identity?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 01, 2021, 06:31:20 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 01, 2021, 02:34:09 PM
Worst I could find was apparently this? "There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity."
I thought it was the SJWs enforcing gender identity?
Who knows what they believe? The goalposts are ever changing.
Quote from: The Spaniard on July 01, 2021, 06:40:52 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 01, 2021, 06:31:20 PM
Quote from: Omega on July 01, 2021, 02:34:09 PM
Worst I could find was apparently this? "There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity."
I thought it was the SJWs enforcing gender identity?
Who knows what they believe? The goalposts are ever changing.
Gender is more or less a defunct concept if removed from sex mapping. Feminist theory makes it difficult to define what is feminine in a substantial objective way. Your intuitions on the subject are rooted in social norms and bigotry. This philosophy causes friction between trans-accepting liberals and TERFs (trans-exclusionary-radical-feminist), a group of liberals who don't accept transgender people as valid. J K Rowling is an example of this. Liberal, but thinks trans people are basically evil.
An attempt at reconciliation, is if gender is unique to everyone, then it can include physical alterations of transgender peoples. So the number of genders = the number of people and is basically your name. Some try to advocate more than two genders, but less than 7+ billion. These people lack philosophical commitment.
Someone transitioning to "the opposite gender" is not one of two genders, they just grossly align with a gender that falls more in-line with one of two groups, if two groups are assumed. Mathematically, you can create clusters. So creating two clusters of genders and labeling one male and one female, creates a dichotomy to justify transition without accepting certain behaviors and self expression as essentially "female" (the platonic universal form of female, which feminist would argue does not exist, and most modern metaphysist would argue does not exist because they don't believe in universals).
There make of that what you will.
Quote from: Mistwell on July 01, 2021, 04:51:10 PM
Yes. Ernie's business partner is the same Justin LaNassa who posted to Youtube a video of him narrating a wrestling match in a tub of grits between two of his female employees to see who would get a promotion. You can read more about it here (https://portcitydaily.com/municipal-elections/2020/02/23/wilmington-republican-primary-rivals-spar-over-candidates-youtube-videos/).
Hopefully this experience translates into good grappling rules.
Quote from: DocJones on July 01, 2021, 09:07:38 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on July 01, 2021, 04:51:10 PM
Yes. Ernie's business partner is the same Justin LaNassa who posted to Youtube a video of him narrating a wrestling match in a tub of grits between two of his female employees to see who would get a promotion. You can read more about it here (https://portcitydaily.com/municipal-elections/2020/02/23/wilmington-republican-primary-rivals-spar-over-candidates-youtube-videos/).
Hopefully this experience translates into good grappling rules.
I need a lot more context for the grits wrestling to have any kind of opinion about it.
I mean, beyond laughing.
Quote from: DocJones on July 01, 2021, 09:07:38 PM
Hopefully this experience translates into good grappling rules.
Or a good character class out of it.
Grytkata Practitioner.
Low level Grytkata Initiates have to carry their own. They usually travel in pairs, one carrying a pre-inflated pool, the other carrying large containers of grits.
Higher level Grytkata Masters can spontaneously summon the pools, or specialty grits that add modifiers.
The amount of completely out-of-their-mind hatred, posing-as-virtuous-while-issuing-death-threats behavior coming from the usual suspects was starting to make me sympathetic to Ernie, who is, despite his faults, probably just a not-very-savvy goofball.
But then when I see he just fumbles how to respond to this type of hate mob and the sympathy just evaporates.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 01, 2021, 09:52:41 PM
Quote from: DocJones on July 01, 2021, 09:07:38 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on July 01, 2021, 04:51:10 PM
Yes. Ernie's business partner is the same Justin LaNassa who posted to Youtube a video of him narrating a wrestling match in a tub of grits between two of his female employees to see who would get a promotion. You can read more about it here (https://portcitydaily.com/municipal-elections/2020/02/23/wilmington-republican-primary-rivals-spar-over-candidates-youtube-videos/).
Hopefully this experience translates into good grappling rules.
I need a lot more context for the grits wrestling to have any kind of opinion about it.
I mean, beyond laughing.
The link has a pretty good summary. J. LaNasa was the owner of a tattoo parlor. As part of a contest to find out who would be "Head Shop Girl" (a putative promotion) he emceed and videotaped a grits wrestling contest between two of his female employees. Which he then posted to YouTube as a promotion for his business. Eight years later, the guy decides to run for office in North Carolina as a Republican. The Republican incumbent sets up a page showing LaNasa and his employees in all their raucous glory, claiming that he wants everyone to know the true morals of his opponent. This is the point at which I first heard of this guy. After he lost the primary (because nekkid wimmen and tattoos is not a good "family values" stance in Wilmington, NC), he apparently hooked up with Ernie to snipe the TSR trademark.
Anybody got a link to that video of the girls wrestling?
...For gaming research of course.
I wrote an open letter to gaming conventions regarding conservative attendance...
https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2021/07/open-letter-to-gaming-conventions.html
Copy/paste...
QuoteOpen Letter To Gaming Conventions
I've been tasked as the spokesman for a plurality of traditional and OSR gamers to ask conventions a very important question in light of Gencon and Origins banning the new TSR over Ernie Gygax Jr.'s interview. Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it's been all over social media lately.
I have to ask if your convention will be accepting of non-woke, non-SJW gamers, gamers who reject that particular ideology, who are openly conservative, who are sick and tired of being harassed by the radical-left and labeled racists, bigots, nazis, whatever phobes and ists, white supremacists, etc. just because we don't subscribe to recent, reality-warping theories of gender identity, critical race theory, and anything having to do with cultural Marxism.
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.
If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.
Hundreds of us (soon thousands, I hope) are sick and tired of being excluded from our beloved hobby by those championing (in name only) inclusion, diversity, and equity. The culture of RPGs has always been welcoming, decent, and law-abiding, but our past seems to be continually altered by revisionists to make it seem like everyone in Lake Geneva, WI circa 1974 owned slaves!
I'm sure you have been around long enough to know our hobby was pretty darn great back in the good old days, even though there have always been and will always be exceptions. Now... well, we're not so sure.
Sincerely,
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest of Kort'thalis Publishing
QuoteI've been tasked as the spokesman for a plurality of traditional and OSR gamers to ask conventions a very important question in light of Gencon and Origins banning the new TSR over Ernie Gygax Jr.'s interview. Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it's been all over social media lately.
By whom, if I might ask? Sorry, I get twitchy when someone declares they are a 'spokesman'.
That being said:
QuoteI have to ask if your convention will be accepting of non-woke, non-SJW gamers, gamers who reject that particular ideology, who are openly conservative, who are sick and tired of being harassed by the radical-left and labeled racists, bigots, nazis, whatever phobes and ists, white supremacists, etc. just because we don't subscribe to recent, reality-warping theories of gender identity, critical race theory, and anything having to do with cultural Marxism.
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.
If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.
Hundreds of us (soon thousands, I hope) are sick and tired of being excluded from our beloved hobby by those championing (in name only) inclusion, diversity, and equity. The culture of RPGs has always been welcoming, decent, and law-abiding, but our past seems to be continually altered by revisionists to make it seem like everyone in Lake Geneva, WI circa 1974 owned slaves!
I agree with this completely. Enough is enough.
QuoteI'm sure you have been around long enough to know our hobby was pretty darn great back in the good old days, even though there have always been and will always be exceptions. Now... well, we're not so sure.
This ties into my repeated, angry complaint about these johnny-come-latelies who want to paint everything prior to Year Zero as evilracistsexistbigotetcetc.
So yeah, other than my kvetch about who are you speaking for, I agree unreservedly.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 11:36:01 AM
QuoteI've been tasked as the spokesman for a plurality of traditional and OSR gamers to ask conventions a very important question in light of Gencon and Origins banning the new TSR over Ernie Gygax Jr.'s interview. Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it's been all over social media lately.
By whom, if I might ask? Sorry, I get twitchy when someone declares they are a 'spokesman'.
The power of the OSR compelled him? :P
Quote from: dkabq on July 02, 2021, 12:49:39 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 11:36:01 AM
QuoteI've been tasked as the spokesman for a plurality of traditional and OSR gamers to ask conventions a very important question in light of Gencon and Origins banning the new TSR over Ernie Gygax Jr.'s interview. Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it's been all over social media lately.
By whom, if I might ask? Sorry, I get twitchy when someone declares they are a 'spokesman'.
The power of the OSR compelled him? :P
No, he's on a mission from God. He's been chosen to kill the vampires.
That stuff needed to be said. Go get "em tiger!!!
Quote from: Mistwell on July 01, 2021, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: ScytheSong on July 01, 2021, 04:33:15 PM
One more point of information that may or may not help: I just found out Ernie's partner, LaNasa, is the same LaNasa who ran for office in North Carolina and lost because there was video evidence that he used the "Two girls and a tub of grits" method of choosing who got a promotion.
Yes. Ernie's business partner is the same Justin LaNassa who posted to Youtube a video of him narrating a wrestling match in a tub of grits between two of his female employees to see who would get a promotion. You can read more about it here (https://portcitydaily.com/municipal-elections/2020/02/23/wilmington-republican-primary-rivals-spar-over-candidates-youtube-videos/).
That's hilarious!!!
Quote from: DocJones on July 01, 2021, 09:07:38 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on July 01, 2021, 04:51:10 PM
Yes. Ernie's business partner is the same Justin LaNassa who posted to Youtube a video of him narrating a wrestling match in a tub of grits between two of his female employees to see who would get a promotion. You can read more about it here (https://portcitydaily.com/municipal-elections/2020/02/23/wilmington-republican-primary-rivals-spar-over-candidates-youtube-videos/).
Hopefully this experience translates into good grappling rules.
No. Good grappling rules are evidently, unobtainable.
As much as I like VS's sentiment, the reality is he is preaching blasphemy to the Anointed.
These institutions on a corporate level have made their bet. They will not relent in their positions until they're shown their calculus is off. That means them losing money, and on the fringes of niche-hobbies like TTRPG's that might mean going out of business.
This weird fetishizing over "D&D" and anything related to the seemingly magical name of Gygax or what people believe are his legacy need to understand that the OSR has already made its claim on that legacy. The *name* of D&D is owned by a moronic corporation staffed by ideological zealots - but the spirit of D&D is with us, the players. You don't *need* them to claim your legitimacy. You already have it. The OSR IS. And so too with any of those that don't feed the beast.
WHY is there this incessant beggar-mentality of trying to claim a place in these institutions and their circus-tents they've stolen from us where they proclaim with every breath, with every cancellation and social media post: "WE DO NOT WANT YOU!"... and yet post after post are the laments of the weepers that bemoan the sad state of their corpse not realizing they're dead.
Since we're talking about religion - I say cast Raise Dead on yourselves, and go play and build your own kingdoms while they burn theirs down. The more attention you give them - the longer this flagellation continues. GM's need to woo people away with *better* games (even if that means using other systems).
Who gives a fuck about GenCon, WotC, TSR, the name Gygax? St. Gary is dead, carry his memory, not his baggage.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 11:20:01 AM
I wrote an open letter to gaming conventions regarding conservative attendance...
https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2021/07/open-letter-to-gaming-conventions.html
Copy/paste...
QuoteOpen Letter To Gaming Conventions
I've been tasked as the spokesman for a plurality of traditional and OSR gamers to ask conventions a very important question in light of Gencon and Origins banning the new TSR over Ernie Gygax Jr.'s interview. Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it's been all over social media lately.
I have to ask if your convention will be accepting of non-woke, non-SJW gamers, gamers who reject that particular ideology, who are openly conservative, who are sick and tired of being harassed by the radical-left and labeled racists, bigots, nazis, whatever phobes and ists, white supremacists, etc. just because we don't subscribe to recent, reality-warping theories of gender identity, critical race theory, and anything having to do with cultural Marxism.
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.
If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.
Hundreds of us (soon thousands, I hope) are sick and tired of being excluded from our beloved hobby by those championing (in name only) inclusion, diversity, and equity. The culture of RPGs has always been welcoming, decent, and law-abiding, but our past seems to be continually altered by revisionists to make it seem like everyone in Lake Geneva, WI circa 1974 owned slaves!
I'm sure you have been around long enough to know our hobby was pretty darn great back in the good old days, even though there have always been and will always be exceptions. Now... well, we're not so sure.
Sincerely,
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest of Kort'thalis Publishing
What makes you assume that being conservative or Republican is in general acceptable?
Go resurrect the 605K+ dead due to idiotic "conservative" hatred of the most basic pandemic prevention procedures and then I may concede that your political ideology is not completely monstrous and should be criminalized let alone tolerated at a gaming convention.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 02, 2021, 02:19:30 PM
What makes you assume that being conservative or Republican is in general acceptable?
Go resurrect the 605K+ dead due to idiotic "conservative" hatred of the most basic pandemic prevention procedures and then I may concede that your political ideology is not completely monstrous and should be criminalized let alone tolerated at a gaming convention.
I lol'd.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 02, 2021, 02:19:30 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 11:20:01 AM
I wrote an open letter to gaming conventions regarding conservative attendance...
https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2021/07/open-letter-to-gaming-conventions.html
Copy/paste...
QuoteOpen Letter To Gaming Conventions
I've been tasked as the spokesman for a plurality of traditional and OSR gamers to ask conventions a very important question in light of Gencon and Origins banning the new TSR over Ernie Gygax Jr.'s interview. Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it's been all over social media lately.
I have to ask if your convention will be accepting of non-woke, non-SJW gamers, gamers who reject that particular ideology, who are openly conservative, who are sick and tired of being harassed by the radical-left and labeled racists, bigots, nazis, whatever phobes and ists, white supremacists, etc. just because we don't subscribe to recent, reality-warping theories of gender identity, critical race theory, and anything having to do with cultural Marxism.
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.
If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.
Hundreds of us (soon thousands, I hope) are sick and tired of being excluded from our beloved hobby by those championing (in name only) inclusion, diversity, and equity. The culture of RPGs has always been welcoming, decent, and law-abiding, but our past seems to be continually altered by revisionists to make it seem like everyone in Lake Geneva, WI circa 1974 owned slaves!
I'm sure you have been around long enough to know our hobby was pretty darn great back in the good old days, even though there have always been and will always be exceptions. Now... well, we're not so sure.
Sincerely,
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest of Kort'thalis Publishing
What makes you assume that being conservative or Republican is in general acceptable?
Go resurrect the 605K+ dead due to idiotic "conservative" hatred of the most basic pandemic prevention procedures and then I may concede that your political ideology is not completely monstrous and should be criminalized let alone tolerated at a gaming convention.
What make you think it's not?
Quote from: Zelen on July 02, 2021, 02:32:29 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 02, 2021, 02:19:30 PM
What makes you assume that being conservative or Republican is in general acceptable?
Go resurrect the 605K+ dead due to idiotic "conservative" hatred of the most basic pandemic prevention procedures and then I may concede that your political ideology is not completely monstrous and should be criminalized let alone tolerated at a gaming convention.
I lol'd.
I can't decide if he's just trying to be ironic, trollish, or if he really is that stupid.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 11:20:01 AM
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.
If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.
There's a big disconnect if you're saying that people who wear MAGA hats to a game convention are people who want to game without politics. It's a campaign slogan for a politician - so it's explicitly political. The same goes for people who wear Biden shirts, of course. The more direct parallel for a Black Lives Matter shirt would be Blue Lives Matter or All Lives Matter, which are not explicitly for a particular politician, but they are still openly ideological. I think people wearing any of these to a game convention aren't trying to game without politics.
As a practical matter, in today's culture, I don't think it's workable to have MAGA-hat-wearing players and BLM-shirt-wearing players happily mixed at the same convention. Even if they are technically allowed by the organizers, I think they just won't be comfortable gaming together. They're within their rights to express their politics, but it's tilting at windmills to get them to game together.
And that's OK. Not everyone has to go to the same game conventions. They're privately-organized events, not public services. I don't think all conventions need to be the same. If you don't like the organizers at your local convention, go to a different one, or organize your own.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 02:34:44 PM
Quote from: Zelen on July 02, 2021, 02:32:29 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 02, 2021, 02:19:30 PM
What makes you assume that being conservative or Republican is in general acceptable?
Go resurrect the 605K+ dead due to idiotic "conservative" hatred of the most basic pandemic prevention procedures and then I may concede that your political ideology is not completely monstrous and should be criminalized let alone tolerated at a gaming convention.
I lol'd.
I can't decide if he's just trying to be ironic, trollish, or if he really is that stupid.
I'm going with Stupid for $ 1000 Alex
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 11:36:01 AM
QuoteI've been tasked as the spokesman for a plurality of traditional and OSR gamers to ask conventions a very important question in light of Gencon and Origins banning the new TSR over Ernie Gygax Jr.'s interview. Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it's been all over social media lately.
By whom, if I might ask? Sorry, I get twitchy when someone declares they are a 'spokesman'.
That being said:
QuoteI have to ask if your convention will be accepting of non-woke, non-SJW gamers, gamers who reject that particular ideology, who are openly conservative, who are sick and tired of being harassed by the radical-left and labeled racists, bigots, nazis, whatever phobes and ists, white supremacists, etc. just because we don't subscribe to recent, reality-warping theories of gender identity, critical race theory, and anything having to do with cultural Marxism.
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.
If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.
Hundreds of us (soon thousands, I hope) are sick and tired of being excluded from our beloved hobby by those championing (in name only) inclusion, diversity, and equity. The culture of RPGs has always been welcoming, decent, and law-abiding, but our past seems to be continually altered by revisionists to make it seem like everyone in Lake Geneva, WI circa 1974 owned slaves!
I agree with this completely. Enough is enough.
QuoteI'm sure you have been around long enough to know our hobby was pretty darn great back in the good old days, even though there have always been and will always be exceptions. Now... well, we're not so sure.
This ties into my repeated, angry complaint about these johnny-come-latelies who want to paint everything prior to Year Zero as evilracistsexistbigotetcetc.
So yeah, other than my kvetch about who are you speaking for, I agree unreservedly.
Several gamers on various social media platforms (FB, Twitter, YouTube, reddit, MeWe, etc.) said "Yes" when I asked them if they'd like me to reach out to gaming conventions on their behalf. We don't have an actual organization yet, outside of internet groups, but one might be coalescing...
Thanks for your support!
Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 01:49:51 PM
As much as I like VS's sentiment, the reality is he is preaching blasphemy to the Anointed.
These institutions on a corporate level have made their bet. They will not relent in their positions until they're shown their calculus is off. That means them losing money, and on the fringes of niche-hobbies like TTRPG's that might mean going out of business.
This weird fetishizing over "D&D" and anything related to the seemingly magical name of Gygax or what people believe are his legacy need to understand that the OSR has already made its claim on that legacy. The *name* of D&D is owned by a moronic corporation staffed by ideological zealots - but the spirit of D&D is with us, the players. You don't *need* them to claim your legitimacy. You already have it. The OSR IS. And so too with any of those that don't feed the beast.
WHY is there this incessant beggar-mentality of trying to claim a place in these institutions and their circus-tents they've stolen from us where they proclaim with every breath, with every cancellation and social media post: "WE DO NOT WANT YOU!"... and yet post after post are the laments of the weepers that bemoan the sad state of their corpse not realizing they're dead.
Since we're talking about religion - I say cast Raise Dead on yourselves, and go play and build your own kingdoms while they burn theirs down. The more attention you give them - the longer this flagellation continues. GM's need to woo people away with *better* games (even if that means using other systems).
Who gives a fuck about GenCon, WotC, TSR, the name Gygax? St. Gary is dead, carry his memory, not his baggage.
What you said makes a lot of sense, and I encourage people to do exactly that... but I also want to fight back against their woke tyranny!
Quote from: jhkim on July 02, 2021, 02:38:04 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 11:20:01 AM
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.
If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.
There's a big disconnect if you're saying that people who wear MAGA hats to a game convention are people who want to game without politics. It's a campaign slogan for a politician - so it's explicitly political. The same goes for people who wear Biden shirts, of course. The more direct parallel for a Black Lives Matter shirt would be Blue Lives Matter or All Lives Matter, which are not explicitly for a particular politician, but they are still openly ideological. I think people wearing any of these to a game convention aren't trying to game without politics.
As a practical matter, in today's culture, I don't think it's workable to have MAGA-hat-wearing players and BLM-shirt-wearing players happily mixed at the same convention. Even if they are technically allowed by the organizers, I think they just won't be comfortable gaming together. They're within their rights to express their politics, but it's tilting at windmills to get them to game together.
And that's OK. Not everyone has to go to the same game conventions. They're privately-organized events, not public services. I don't think all conventions need to be the same. If you don't like the organizers at your local convention, go to a different one, or organize your own.
Yes, I specifically mentioned an extreme edge-case in order to provoke a kneejerk response. It was intentional.
Quote from: jhkim on July 02, 2021, 02:38:04 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 11:20:01 AM
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.
If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.
There's a big disconnect if you're saying that people who wear MAGA hats to a game convention are people who want to game without politics. It's a campaign slogan for a politician - so it's explicitly political. The same goes for people who wear Biden shirts, of course. The more direct parallel for a Black Lives Matter shirt would be Blue Lives Matter or All Lives Matter, which are not explicitly for a particular politician, but they are still openly ideological. I think people wearing any of these to a game convention aren't trying to game without politics.
As a practical matter, in today's culture, I don't think it's workable to have MAGA-hat-wearing players and BLM-shirt-wearing players happily mixed at the same convention. Even if they are technically allowed by the organizers, I think they just won't be comfortable gaming together. They're within their rights to express their politics, but it's tilting at windmills to get them to game together.
And that's OK. Not everyone has to go to the same game conventions. They're privately-organized events, not public services. I don't think all conventions need to be the same. If you don't like the organizers at your local convention, go to a different one, or organize your own.
You forgot the third and more popular option.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ef94F2kXoAEJBTU.jpg)
Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 01:49:51 PM
As much as I like VS's sentiment, the reality is he is preaching blasphemy to the Anointed.
These institutions on a corporate level have made their bet. They will not relent in their positions until they're shown their calculus is off. That means them losing money, and on the fringes of niche-hobbies like TTRPG's that might mean going out of business.
I'll go further. They won't relent even if they are shown that their calculus is off. The true believers of the SJW religion have been treating the TTRPG world as foreign land that they are conquering; going Scorched Earth and destroying everything is acceptable to them because the purpose is to destroy. Subversion is their preferred method, but leaving nothing behind to salvage is also just fine.
This reminds me of an episode of Person of Interest, where an assassin working for the bad guys, controlled by a supercomputer called Samaritan, was assigned a task of killing someone as a threat to national security. She asked to see the evidence, but was denied because her security clearance wasn't high enough - even though she had the highest security clearance. Her questioning this led to HER being temporarily placed on a list of targets.
At the end of the episode, she was back in Samaritan's good graces, and she tracked down her target who was defenseless. He asked her, "Can you consider, just for a moment, the possibility that I am innocent?" She immediately answered, "No" and killed him.
That is the mentality we are dealing with. They will not turn from their ideology EVEN WHEN PROVEN WRONG!
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 02, 2021, 02:19:30 PM
What makes you assume that being conservative or Republican is in general acceptable?
Go resurrect the 605K+ dead due to idiotic "conservative" hatred of the most basic pandemic prevention procedures and then I may concede that your political ideology is not completely monstrous and should be criminalized let alone tolerated at a gaming convention.
Lighten up, Francis...
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 02:34:44 PM
Quote from: Zelen on July 02, 2021, 02:32:29 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 02, 2021, 02:19:30 PM
What makes you assume that being conservative or Republican is in general acceptable?
Go resurrect the 605K+ dead due to idiotic "conservative" hatred of the most basic pandemic prevention procedures and then I may concede that your political ideology is not completely monstrous and should be criminalized let alone tolerated at a gaming convention.
I lol'd.
I can't decide if he's just trying to be ironic, trollish, or if he really is that stupid.
Yes?
Quote from: ScytheSong on July 01, 2021, 10:57:07 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 01, 2021, 09:52:41 PM
Quote from: DocJones on July 01, 2021, 09:07:38 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on July 01, 2021, 04:51:10 PM
Yes. Ernie's business partner is the same Justin LaNassa who posted to Youtube a video of him narrating a wrestling match in a tub of grits between two of his female employees to see who would get a promotion. You can read more about it here (https://portcitydaily.com/municipal-elections/2020/02/23/wilmington-republican-primary-rivals-spar-over-candidates-youtube-videos/).
Hopefully this experience translates into good grappling rules.
I need a lot more context for the grits wrestling to have any kind of opinion about it.
I mean, beyond laughing.
The link has a pretty good summary. J. LaNasa was the owner of a tattoo parlor. As part of a contest to find out who would be "Head Shop Girl" (a putative promotion) he emceed and videotaped a grits wrestling contest between two of his female employees. Which he then posted to YouTube as a promotion for his business. Eight years later, the guy decides to run for office in North Carolina as a Republican. The Republican incumbent sets up a page showing LaNasa and his employees in all their raucous glory, claiming that he wants everyone to know the true morals of his opponent. This is the point at which I first heard of this guy. After he lost the primary (because nekkid wimmen and tattoos is not a good "family values" stance in Wilmington, NC), he apparently hooked up with Ernie to snipe the TSR trademark.
When his opponent raised the issue, LaNasa also went on at some length about how his opponent was infringing his copyright rights by showing the video in his advertisement (despite it being clearly under the fair use news exemption). Demonstrating his lack of knowledge concerning intellectual property laws years prior to his more recent debacle with intellectual property laws.
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 02, 2021, 07:31:16 AM
Anybody got a link to that video of the girls wrestling?
...For gaming research of course.
You can see part of the video in this ad:
https://portcitydaily.com/wp-content/uploads/CC_TD_LaNasa_01-v3.mp4
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 02:45:03 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 11:36:01 AM
QuoteI've been tasked as the spokesman for a plurality of traditional and OSR gamers to ask conventions a very important question in light of Gencon and Origins banning the new TSR over Ernie Gygax Jr.'s interview. Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it's been all over social media lately.
By whom, if I might ask? Sorry, I get twitchy when someone declares they are a 'spokesman'.
That being said:
QuoteI have to ask if your convention will be accepting of non-woke, non-SJW gamers, gamers who reject that particular ideology, who are openly conservative, who are sick and tired of being harassed by the radical-left and labeled racists, bigots, nazis, whatever phobes and ists, white supremacists, etc. just because we don't subscribe to recent, reality-warping theories of gender identity, critical race theory, and anything having to do with cultural Marxism.
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.
If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.
Hundreds of us (soon thousands, I hope) are sick and tired of being excluded from our beloved hobby by those championing (in name only) inclusion, diversity, and equity. The culture of RPGs has always been welcoming, decent, and law-abiding, but our past seems to be continually altered by revisionists to make it seem like everyone in Lake Geneva, WI circa 1974 owned slaves!
I agree with this completely. Enough is enough.
QuoteI'm sure you have been around long enough to know our hobby was pretty darn great back in the good old days, even though there have always been and will always be exceptions. Now... well, we're not so sure.
This ties into my repeated, angry complaint about these johnny-come-latelies who want to paint everything prior to Year Zero as evilracistsexistbigotetcetc.
So yeah, other than my kvetch about who are you speaking for, I agree unreservedly.
Several gamers on various social media platforms (FB, Twitter, YouTube, reddit, MeWe, etc.) said "Yes" when I asked them if they'd like me to reach out to gaming conventions on their behalf. We don't have an actual organization yet, outside of internet groups, but one might be coalescing...
Thanks for your support!
Fair enough. I won't ask for names because as we've seen before, worthless wokeist bullet stoppers do love to dox and harass people who question them.
Keep in touch. I'm curious to see where this goes.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 02:47:49 PM
Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 01:49:51 PM
As much as I like VS's sentiment, the reality is he is preaching blasphemy to the Anointed.
These institutions on a corporate level have made their bet. They will not relent in their positions until they're shown their calculus is off. That means them losing money, and on the fringes of niche-hobbies like TTRPG's that might mean going out of business.
This weird fetishizing over "D&D" and anything related to the seemingly magical name of Gygax or what people believe are his legacy need to understand that the OSR has already made its claim on that legacy. The *name* of D&D is owned by a moronic corporation staffed by ideological zealots - but the spirit of D&D is with us, the players. You don't *need* them to claim your legitimacy. You already have it. The OSR IS. And so too with any of those that don't feed the beast.
WHY is there this incessant beggar-mentality of trying to claim a place in these institutions and their circus-tents they've stolen from us where they proclaim with every breath, with every cancellation and social media post: "WE DO NOT WANT YOU!"... and yet post after post are the laments of the weepers that bemoan the sad state of their corpse not realizing they're dead.
Since we're talking about religion - I say cast Raise Dead on yourselves, and go play and build your own kingdoms while they burn theirs down. The more attention you give them - the longer this flagellation continues. GM's need to woo people away with *better* games (even if that means using other systems).
Who gives a fuck about GenCon, WotC, TSR, the name Gygax? St. Gary is dead, carry his memory, not his baggage.
What you said makes a lot of sense, and I encourage people to do exactly that... but I also want to fight back against their woke tyranny!
I hear you. I think that that by putting our efforts towards making great games we enjoy (which you are already doing!) we'll be better served in the general efforts. They're burning the house down already. They *can't* create good things.
That said - the cartoon about "building new things" which in subsequently become "great things" which invites the ankle-biters is a powerful meme that happens to be generally true (Strong Men Create Good Times etc. etc.) but that only underscores the real need for curation and standards.<---- THAT is the part where we fail.
Call it gatekeeping, call it having standards, call it being exclusive whatever... the point is if we accept the fact that this mechanism of letting bad actors into our tents who only want to burn the tent down, then why do we put *any* value on their labels for us? Discernment requires discipline and principles. When we drop those we invite the inevitable. That is where we have to reimagine things anew.
So cede the ground we've already lost. Lets not lose time and resources on trying to revive the dead, and lets make great shit together, say I.
I want to talk about GOOD games and gaming in general. I want to talk about cool new shit (and yes, old shit) - I find it hard to shake the feeling we're spending too much time hand-wringing about how the weirdos are defiling OUR traditions. When *we* are the caretakers of our traditions, not them. We define it ourselves. It's not in the Corporate Brand of D&D, it's not in the name Gygax, it's in us. We're on this forum *because* we share gaming interests exclusive of those weirdos. And we don't all agree on everything, but we sure as fuck agree that what we love about this hobby has *nothing* to do with those lunatics on TBP and their corporate overlords which serve up mediocre pap to the fans they hate.
At a certain point, and I think we're there, the momentum of their failure has hit a tipping point. St. Gygax created D&D out of nothing, and there wer controversies and naysayers from the start. There is no reason we can't learn the real lessons and make good shit, (and keep the old shit alive) while watching the WotC inevitably grind itself down. It'll take time for sure, but to me that only means we have nothing to lose that isn't already lost, and we can make gaming great again with lessons learned.
TL/DR - I don't want to let the leeches suck our energies dry slap-boxing with these morons, when we know what we need to do. Because there is *nothing* else left for us to do.
Quote from: Fergurg on July 02, 2021, 03:07:16 PM
I'll go further. They won't relent even if they are shown that their calculus is off. The true believers of the SJW religion have been treating the TTRPG world as foreign land that they are conquering; going Scorched Earth and destroying everything is acceptable to them because the purpose is to destroy. Subversion is their preferred method, but leaving nothing behind to salvage is also just fine.
I'm banking on this. This is precisely why we need to create the thing we want to see. Otherwise we're playing their game. LITERALLY. I say - no. And we need to convert the convertible with GM's outreaching. We need people that have been thinking of getting their hands in the trenches and publishing their own material doing so - to DO IT! This is the best time ever to DIY. We need collaborations between like-minded game-interests to hunker down and prepare to say Fuck Off to the Nay-sayers, and the weirdos that have brought this upon our hobby. And for those not wanting to do those things, you have to be ready to support your fellows that are going to do it.
Complaining is a gross hobby. Gaming with cool TTRPG's is a *way* better option.
Quote from: Fergurg on July 02, 2021, 03:07:16 PMThis reminds me of an episode of Person of Interest, where an assassin working for the bad guys, controlled by a supercomputer called Samaritan, was assigned a task of killing someone as a threat to national security. She asked to see the evidence, but was denied because her security clearance wasn't high enough - even though she had the highest security clearance. Her questioning this led to HER being temporarily placed on a list of targets.
At the end of the episode, she was back in Samaritan's good graces, and she tracked down her target who was defenseless. He asked her, "Can you consider, just for a moment, the possibility that I am innocent?" She immediately answered, "No" and killed him.
That is the mentality we are dealing with. They will not turn from their ideology EVEN WHEN PROVEN WRONG!
And because we know this - WE have the advantage. In fact I'd say if all this complaining on various threads has a shred of value - then we have a responsibility to ourselves, at minimum, to flip the finger at them, the companies we know pushing this garbage, and support the ones that don't. *At minimum*.
We need to kill off our allegiances to "brands" - and remember the spirit of our hobby is what happens at our tables. Not what WotC tells you is D&D. How many editions of "fuck you" do you have to consume before you realize 1) your favorite edition already happened 2) nothing prevents you from playing those 3) you always have the option of creating content for yourself and other likeminded people 4) FIND THOSE PEOPLE. Curation starts at your table. 5) Stop supporting gaming companies that hate you.
It's too easy to simply go with the herd. Especially when that herd is a bunch of parasitical cannibals that are looking to eat you and your money, time and energy in no particular order.
I like the sentiment in the letter and would be down to join a collective that represents non-woke gamers. It's good initiative.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 02, 2021, 02:19:30 PM
Go resurrect the 605K+ dead due to idiotic "conservative" hatred of the most basic pandemic prevention procedures and then I may concede that your political ideology is not completely monstrous and should be criminalized let alone tolerated at a gaming convention.
What are you, some kind of conspiracy theorist?
Over 120 million Americans died from the Wuhan virus and you want to down play it as only 605K.
Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 05:14:04 PM
We need to kill off our allegiances to "brands" - and remember the spirit of our hobby is what happens at our tables. Not what WotC tells you is D&D.
One of the reasons I decided to ditch the OGL (and access to the d20 SRDs with it) was precisely because I didn't want ANY ties to WotC (I'll have my own open system license, but I've got some different priorities than WotC; short version is I'm okay with greater use of product identity and direct indications of compatibility so long as the content using it is family friendly).
Frankly, I think having to go back to the original myths and legends and consider the mechanics from the ground up instead of just pulling from the built-in mechanics and mythos in the SRD was better for actually getting a system that feels fresher and less like D&D with the serial numbers filed off.
So, yeah, D&D is basically dead to me and my only interest at this point is the academic interest of a competitor. When my system is done I will absolutely get a retailer booth at MAGACon provided its up and running by then.
Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 05:14:04 PM
I'm banking on this. This is precisely why we need to create the thing we want to see. Otherwise we're playing their game. LITERALLY. I say - no. And we need to convert the convertible with GM's outreaching. We need people that have been thinking of getting their hands in the trenches and publishing their own material doing so - to DO IT! This is the best time ever to DIY. We need collaborations between like-minded game-interests to hunker down and prepare to say Fuck Off to the Nay-sayers, and the weirdos that have brought this upon our hobby. And for those not wanting to do those things, you have to be ready to support your fellows that are going to do it.
Complaining is a gross hobby. Gaming with cool TTRPG's is a *way* better option.
Do it yourself doesn't even have to be something to sell. It just has to be good enough to share with whatever audience you want to share it with. That's my tack right now with my own system. Like Chris, I don't want to be attached to anything WotC. Same impetus, different goals.
Most of the OSR stuff doesn't hit close enough to the mark I want to hit. I can apply some professionalism to the effort, but I don't have the time to make a product to sell to a wide audience (much less the desire). Make that realistic assessment of what the product its, I can apply the professionalism where it matters: Make it comprehensible and accessible to my audience and cheap to communicate it.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 11:20:01 AM
I wrote an open letter to gaming conventions regarding conservative attendance...
https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2021/07/open-letter-to-gaming-conventions.html
Copy/paste...
QuoteOpen Letter To Gaming Conventions
I've been tasked as the spokesman for a plurality of traditional and OSR gamers to ask conventions a very important question in light of Gencon and Origins banning the new TSR over Ernie Gygax Jr.'s interview. Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it's been all over social media lately.
I have to ask if your convention will be accepting of non-woke, non-SJW gamers, gamers who reject that particular ideology, who are openly conservative, who are sick and tired of being harassed by the radical-left and labeled racists, bigots, nazis, whatever phobes and ists, white supremacists, etc. just because we don't subscribe to recent, reality-warping theories of gender identity, critical race theory, and anything having to do with cultural Marxism.
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.
If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.
Hundreds of us (soon thousands, I hope) are sick and tired of being excluded from our beloved hobby by those championing (in name only) inclusion, diversity, and equity. The culture of RPGs has always been welcoming, decent, and law-abiding, but our past seems to be continually altered by revisionists to make it seem like everyone in Lake Geneva, WI circa 1974 owned slaves!
I'm sure you have been around long enough to know our hobby was pretty darn great back in the good old days, even though there have always been and will always be exceptions. Now... well, we're not so sure.
Sincerely,
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest of Kort'thalis Publishing
Rock on man. I don't have all the same beliefs as you (I assume!) but damn it if I hate this intolerant Stalinist shit we are being faced with.
Grab your dice and get ready to play; you are welcome to join me No matter who you are, but once you start telling me what to believe politically and to bow down to the cult of identity politics you can fuck right off.
Gay, straight, atheist, religious...all are welcome. SJW thought police? Sensitivity reading fascists? Hit the fucking road.
Well said venger!
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 11:36:01 AMBy whom, if I might ask? Sorry, I get twitchy when someone declares they are a 'spokesman'.
Sorry, my bad. I was in telepathic contact with Venger and I forgot to turn off my Mass Mind psi-power that I use to dominate this forum so everyone accidentally was infected with unconscious mind worms and that's how Venger got declared our spokesman.
It happens to the best of us.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 02, 2021, 02:19:30 PMWhat makes you assume that being conservative or Republican is in general acceptable?
My guns + my willingness to use them.
Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 05:02:12 PMTL/DR - I don't want to let the leeches suck our energies dry slap-boxing with these morons, when we know what we need to do. Because there is *nothing* else left for us to do.
THIS is the exact advice I give to people talking about trying to save the USA. I enjoy shitposting on commie clowns, but my political efforts are for the audits and Red State Secession and my hobby efforts are for my own games...and I'd be down to help launch MAGAcon.
We need our own convention and the more I think about it (and I've been musing on it more than I should), I think Chris24601 nailed it with "Make Adventuring Great Again" Con happening the week directly after GenCon in Indianapolis. Or the week before might work too. Depends on prices / competition.
We need the convention because it needs to be a real world event where people can feel empowered to meet up in person and those who can't attend, see the pics and videos. The Twatter eruption will be tasty free publicity.
Segregation is the future. Not by race, but by culture.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 02, 2021, 05:24:50 PMOver 120 million Americans died from the Wuhan virus and you want to down play it as only 605K.
Zero traffic in LA and my pick of empty beach houses?
I'm gonna pass out from that boner.
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2021, 10:20:36 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2021, 11:36:01 AMBy whom, if I might ask? Sorry, I get twitchy when someone declares they are a 'spokesman'.
Sorry, my bad. I was in telepathic contact with Venger and I forgot to turn off my Mass Mind psi-power that I use to dominate this forum so everyone accidentally was infected with unconscious mind worms and that's how Venger got declared our spokesman.
It happens to the best of us.
It's all good. I have this knee-jerk reaction to 'I speak for the masses'.
That being said, Venger is absolutely spot on.
Quote from: Fergurg on July 02, 2021, 03:07:16 PM
Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 01:49:51 PM
As much as I like VS's sentiment, the reality is he is preaching blasphemy to the Anointed.
These institutions on a corporate level have made their bet. They will not relent in their positions until they're shown their calculus is off. That means them losing money, and on the fringes of niche-hobbies like TTRPG's that might mean going out of business.
I'll go further. They won't relent even if they are shown that their calculus is off. The true believers of the SJW religion have been treating the TTRPG world as foreign land that they are conquering; going Scorched Earth and destroying everything is acceptable to them because the purpose is to destroy. Subversion is their preferred method, but leaving nothing behind to salvage is also just fine.
This reminds me of an episode of Person of Interest, where an assassin working for the bad guys, controlled by a supercomputer called Samaritan, was assigned a task of killing someone as a threat to national security. She asked to see the evidence, but was denied because her security clearance wasn't high enough - even though she had the highest security clearance. Her questioning this led to HER being temporarily placed on a list of targets.
At the end of the episode, she was back in Samaritan's good graces, and she tracked down her target who was defenseless. He asked her, "Can you consider, just for a moment, the possibility that I am innocent?" She immediately answered, "No" and killed him.
That is the mentality we are dealing with. They will not turn from their ideology EVEN WHEN PROVEN WRONG!
That just makes me want to fight them even harder.
Quote from: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 05:14:04 PM
Quote from: Fergurg on July 02, 2021, 03:07:16 PM
I'll go further. They won't relent even if they are shown that their calculus is off. The true believers of the SJW religion have been treating the TTRPG world as foreign land that they are conquering; going Scorched Earth and destroying everything is acceptable to them because the purpose is to destroy. Subversion is their preferred method, but leaving nothing behind to salvage is also just fine.
I'm banking on this. This is precisely why we need to create the thing we want to see. Otherwise we're playing their game. LITERALLY. I say - no. And we need to convert the convertible with GM's outreaching. We need people that have been thinking of getting their hands in the trenches and publishing their own material doing so - to DO IT! This is the best time ever to DIY. We need collaborations between like-minded game-interests to hunker down and prepare to say Fuck Off to the Nay-sayers, and the weirdos that have brought this upon our hobby. And for those not wanting to do those things, you have to be ready to support your fellows that are going to do it.
Complaining is a gross hobby. Gaming with cool TTRPG's is a *way* better option.
Quote from: Fergurg on July 02, 2021, 03:07:16 PMThis reminds me of an episode of Person of Interest, where an assassin working for the bad guys, controlled by a supercomputer called Samaritan, was assigned a task of killing someone as a threat to national security. She asked to see the evidence, but was denied because her security clearance wasn't high enough - even though she had the highest security clearance. Her questioning this led to HER being temporarily placed on a list of targets.
At the end of the episode, she was back in Samaritan's good graces, and she tracked down her target who was defenseless. He asked her, "Can you consider, just for a moment, the possibility that I am innocent?" She immediately answered, "No" and killed him.
That is the mentality we are dealing with. They will not turn from their ideology EVEN WHEN PROVEN WRONG!
And because we know this - WE have the advantage. In fact I'd say if all this complaining on various threads has a shred of value - then we have a responsibility to ourselves, at minimum, to flip the finger at them, the companies we know pushing this garbage, and support the ones that don't. *At minimum*.
We need to kill off our allegiances to "brands" - and remember the spirit of our hobby is what happens at our tables. Not what WotC tells you is D&D. How many editions of "fuck you" do you have to consume before you realize 1) your favorite edition already happened 2) nothing prevents you from playing those 3) you always have the option of creating content for yourself and other likeminded people 4) FIND THOSE PEOPLE. Curation starts at your table. 5) Stop supporting gaming companies that hate you.
It's too easy to simply go with the herd. Especially when that herd is a bunch of parasitical cannibals that are looking to eat you and your money, time and energy in no particular order.
Yes, love both your posts. Do you have a blog, too? I might paraphrase some of your excellent points in a video coming up soon. I assume that's cool with you.
I'm talking to my wife now about the possibility of organizing a gaming convention in my neck of the woods (south-central WI) the same weekend as GenCon. And like-minded gamers are interested in doing the same in their local communities.
If anyone would like a quick opinion on their RPG work or even proposals of future work, perhaps we could create some kind of "feedback circle" in order to promote excellence in gaming?
Quote from: Dapig on July 02, 2021, 09:43:18 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2021, 11:20:01 AM
I wrote an open letter to gaming conventions regarding conservative attendance...
https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2021/07/open-letter-to-gaming-conventions.html
Copy/paste...
QuoteOpen Letter To Gaming Conventions
Thanks, hoss!
I've been tasked as the spokesman for a plurality of traditional and OSR gamers to ask conventions a very important question in light of Gencon and Origins banning the new TSR over Ernie Gygax Jr.'s interview. Maybe you aren't aware of it, but it's been all over social media lately.
I have to ask if your convention will be accepting of non-woke, non-SJW gamers, gamers who reject that particular ideology, who are openly conservative, who are sick and tired of being harassed by the radical-left and labeled racists, bigots, nazis, whatever phobes and ists, white supremacists, etc. just because we don't subscribe to recent, reality-warping theories of gender identity, critical race theory, and anything having to do with cultural Marxism.
As an example, if you'd allow someone to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but not a MAGA hat... that's a serious problem. Similarly, if individuals such as Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson would not be allowed to attend, that speaks volumes about the egregious levels of gatekeeping in the gaming community.
If politically moderate, old-school liberal, libertarian, right-leaning gamers and just normal people who want to game without politics (including leftist politics) aren't welcome, then there's no reason for my continued presence at your gaming convention until mainstream, middle-America values are tolerated once again.
Hundreds of us (soon thousands, I hope) are sick and tired of being excluded from our beloved hobby by those championing (in name only) inclusion, diversity, and equity. The culture of RPGs has always been welcoming, decent, and law-abiding, but our past seems to be continually altered by revisionists to make it seem like everyone in Lake Geneva, WI circa 1974 owned slaves!
I'm sure you have been around long enough to know our hobby was pretty darn great back in the good old days, even though there have always been and will always be exceptions. Now... well, we're not so sure.
Sincerely,
Venger As'Nas Satanis
High Priest of Kort'thalis Publishing
Rock on man. I don't have all the same beliefs as you (I assume!) but damn it if I hate this intolerant Stalinist shit we are being faced with.
Grab your dice and get ready to play; you are welcome to join me No matter who you are, but once you start telling me what to believe politically and to bow down to the cult of identity politics you can fuck right off.
Gay, straight, atheist, religious...all are welcome. SJW thought police? Sensitivity reading fascists? Hit the fucking road.
Well said venger!
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 03, 2021, 09:49:41 AM
Yes, love both your posts. Do you have a blog, too? I might paraphrase some of your excellent points in a video coming up soon. I assume that's cool with you.
I can't tell you how many times people have asked me this, heh. I've largely avoided blogging, and doing social media because my views would put my wife's business in the sights of the mob. But we've both known that my internet history is unavoidable (not that I've said anything I won't defend) and I didn't want to bring any drama to my day-job. But I'm working on transitioning out of that career and I'm seriously considering getting into publishing. My wife is an insanely good editor. Our concern with the mob lessens as the inevitable approaches. So we're getting our ducks in a row, and I'll be doing a website, blog, and likely podcast in the future.
Feel free to paraphrase me as you see fit!
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 03, 2021, 09:49:41 AMI'm talking to my wife now about the possibility of organizing a gaming convention in my neck of the woods (south-central WI) the same weekend as GenCon. And like-minded gamers are interested in doing the same in their local communities.
If anyone would like a quick opinion on their RPG work or even proposals of future work, perhaps we could create some kind of "feedback circle" in order to promote excellence in gaming?
I totally support you in this. We definitely need to get more organized if only to hash out strategies of mutual support.
I realize not all of us agree in terms of systems/mechanics etc. To me this is totally besides the much larger points we agree on: our games should be wide open and unhindered by cultural Marxists and corporate assholes that have essentially laid siege to our hobby.
Personally, I'm interested in creating great GM's. GM's are the heart, soul and the lifeblood of our hobby. A great GM will elevate *any* system or setting. I think that's an element which we could be targeting as part of our strategy which raises the water for all of our respective ships.
Our hobby needs to rally around some best-practices to teach GM's how to GM regardless of system (that will come later) and that's where we can beat Them(tm). They rely largely on name-recognition alone (obviously), we'll have to rely on performance, skill and design to build better games AND provide better methodologies for GMing which of course translates to better games.
I'll leave Tool Design to you and others, heh. But I'll chip in with my feedback there too.
So count me in on the feedback circle.
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
Agreed. Or even more simply, can I just play a game?
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
I'd want to ask GenCon what their community manager means by "White silence is white consent".
Do I have to make some sort of racialist affirmation to play a game at their con?
Quote from: DocJones on July 03, 2021, 07:17:44 PM
I'd want to ask GenCon what their community manager means by "White silence is white consent".
Apparently if you ask a white girl at their convention to sleep with you and she doesn't say anything, it means she consented. That's consistent with leftist woke ideology, right? Silence equals consent...
QuoteThis is what blows me away. If there are real players in the outrage mob, they have not done a single thing with all of their energy that makes the game more fun.
I cannot believe how much discussion and energy is expended on this stuff via a vis the actual game.
I play for fun, period. I really wonder if their silence during games about world hunger makes them somehow complicit with starving babies, by their measure.
As I'm part of various RPG groups on Facebook, I can safely say there is shittons of leftists playing RPG, and I'd say some colossal overrepresentation of well for simplicity of language non-cis people. Which isn't even that surprisng TBH. And they are genuinely interested, and can be quite useful in terms of RPG advice (that's why I stick in groups when I'd be banned in 0,004 miliseconds showing true colours - though I have to say they seems mostly less toxic than RPG.net - I mean Big Purple mods would simply check my main feed on FB, but those seems not that inquisitve). Nevertheless they are WOKE as hell, it's clear any moment given subjects appear - and they will appear in terms of gaming, because settings and so on, and they are definitely happy to push out right wing people from hobby and fandom.
It's not like they don't play RPG or don't like RPG. They like. They love maybe even. But they cannot stand people they consider vile, immoral, FASCISTS - loves the same shit as them. Even in entertainment. Because that would probably be... well humanising thing about people they would love to dehumanise and reduce to random faceless Starkiller Base disposable mooks.
Which I think is bigger problem than if they'd be simple enemies payed goons.
Quote from: Wrath of God on July 03, 2021, 08:34:01 PM
QuoteThis is what blows me away. If there are real players in the outrage mob, they have not done a single thing with all of their energy that makes the game more fun.
I cannot believe how much discussion and energy is expended on this stuff via a vis the actual game.
I play for fun, period. I really wonder if their silence during games about world hunger makes them somehow complicit with starving babies, by their measure.
As I'm part of various RPG groups on Facebook, I can safely say there is shittons of leftists playing RPG, and I'd say some colossal overrepresentation of well for simplicity of language non-cis people. Which isn't even that surprisng TBH. And they are genuinely interested, and can be quite useful in terms of RPG advice (that's why I stick in groups when I'd be banned in 0,004 miliseconds showing true colours - though I have to say they seems mostly less toxic than RPG.net - I mean Big Purple mods would simply check my main feed on FB, but those seems not that inquisitve). Nevertheless they are WOKE as hell, it's clear any moment given subjects appear - and they will appear in terms of gaming, because settings and so on, and they are definitely happy to push out right wing people from hobby and fandom.
It's not like they don't play RPG or don't like RPG. They like. They love maybe even. But they cannot stand people they consider vile, immoral, FASCISTS - loves the same shit as them. Even in entertainment. Because that would probably be... well humanising thing about people they would love to dehumanise and reduce to random faceless Starkiller Base disposable mooks.
Which I think is bigger problem than if they'd be simple enemies payed goons.
I have a feeling that could be an over representation of player populations due to the nature of the platforms. I do think the people most vocal about playing RPGs will trend left, because IMO experience lefties are pretty vocal about everything they are into, as if no one who has ever come before them was as into their "thing" as they are. Reality is, at this point, what hard lefties have shown me regarding the things they will stand with, cannot be in a shared meat space with me. I do not care if they love exactly the same RPGs at this point. I like dogs and vegetables too, but I would not sit down and hang out with Hitler either.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:26:33 PM
I have a feeling that could be an over representation of player populations due to the nature of the platforms. I do think the people most vocal about playing RPGs will trend left, because IMO experience lefties are pretty vocal about everything they are into, as if no one who has ever come before them was as into their "thing" as they are.
I'm not sure if it's still true, but when the OSR was first getting attention, it was all over the place online. There were bloggers, podcasts, videos, self-published stuff on RPGNow and Lulu, and regular conversations on many established forums. But one thing I realized after a while was the real old school crowd -- the people who had never stopped playing AD&D for instance -- was much bigger. They were just invisible online, because they had little or no internet presence. Aside from a few places like Dragonsfoot, you'd never know they existed.
The internet does not reflect the people who play games. It reflects the people who are vocal about about games.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.
Quote from: Pat on July 03, 2021, 11:59:14 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:26:33 PM
I have a feeling that could be an over representation of player populations due to the nature of the platforms. I do think the people most vocal about playing RPGs will trend left, because IMO experience lefties are pretty vocal about everything they are into, as if no one who has ever come before them was as into their "thing" as they are.
I'm not sure if it's still true, but when the OSR was first getting attention, it was all over the place online. There were bloggers, podcasts, videos, self-published stuff on RPGNow and Lulu, and regular conversations on many established forums. But one thing I realized after a while was the real old school crowd -- the people who had never stopped playing AD&D for instance -- was much bigger. They were just invisible online, because they had little or no internet presence. Aside from a few places like Dragonsfoot, you'd never know they existed.
The internet does not reflect the people who play games. It reflects the people who are vocal about about games.
Very well said, and that is true about all topics.
Quote from: DocJones on July 03, 2021, 07:17:44 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
I'd want to ask GenCon what their community manager means by "White silence is white consent".
Do I have to make some sort of racialist affirmation to play a game at their con?
You know exactly what it means. This is what I'm talking about. It's purely rhetorical but what do you REALLY expect them to tell you if indeed you even asked them? You know damn well what they mean. What does that fact MEAN to you? Do you really want to go participate at their Con?
I mean it would be like asking me if I want to go participate at a shit-eating contest.
The real question is taking that time and energy and putting it to use in turning some 5e players to other games that are better made, better run, by YOU.
"Don't get mad. Get even." - JFK
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.
Says the guy who wants to blame every death from a chinese bio weapon on conservatives... Not sure if serious...
Quote from: oggsmash on July 04, 2021, 11:34:06 AM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.
Says the guy who wants to blame every death from a chinese bio weapon on conservatives... Not sure if serious...
Every wu flu death (~595K) and an extra 55K for good measure. Although, to be fair (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv7jcciKB_s), adding an extra ~10% to the current provisional total is likely a good guess at the final total that will be reported by the CDC.
Or perhaps his argument is that if conservatives had not elected the Bad Orange Man in 2016, the ChiComs would not have released the wu flu in 2020 to prevent the BOM from being reelected. Hence, they (by electing the BOM, who then pissed off the ChiComs), are responsible for all of the wu flu deaths. But that then begs the question of are the conservatives also to blame for all of the lock-down related deaths?
Quote from: dkabq on July 04, 2021, 12:40:35 PM
Or perhaps his argument is that if conservatives had not elected the Bad Orange Man in 2016, the ChiComs would not have released the wu flu in 2020 to prevent the BOM from being reelected. Hence, they (by electing the BOM, who then pissed off the ChiComs), are responsible for all of the wu flu deaths. But that then begs the question of are the conservatives also to blame for all of the lock-down related deaths?
Take this retard logic elsewhere.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 04, 2021, 04:12:22 PM
Quote from: dkabq on July 04, 2021, 12:40:35 PM
Or perhaps his argument is that if conservatives had not elected the Bad Orange Man in 2016, the ChiComs would not have released the wu flu in 2020 to prevent the BOM from being reelected. Hence, they (by electing the BOM, who then pissed off the ChiComs), are responsible for all of the wu flu deaths. But that then begs the question of are the conservatives also to blame for all of the lock-down related deaths?
Take this retard logic elsewhere.
Lighten up, Francis...
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.
Ernies "political statement" amounted to saying "there's people who want to play games without modern political indoctrination in them". That's all it was.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 04, 2021, 07:01:48 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.
Ernies "political statement" amounted to saying "there's people who want to play games without modern political indoctrination in them". That's all it was.
"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."
Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM
Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.
Only in Bizarro world. In any approximation of the real world, saying politics are dumb and don't matter is pretty much the definition of apolitical.
Quote from: Pat on July 04, 2021, 11:06:15 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM
Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.
Only in Bizarro world. In any approximation of the real world, saying politics are dumb and don't matter is pretty much the definition of apolitical.
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being anti-abortion (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being anti-slavery (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being racist (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being feminist (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being white (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being against universal background checks (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being pro democracy (laughs)."
Nothing sounds political there to you?
Nope.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 11:32:54 PM
Quote from: Pat on July 04, 2021, 11:06:15 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM
Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.
Only in Bizarro world. In any approximation of the real world, saying politics are dumb and don't matter is pretty much the definition of apolitical.
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being anti-abortion (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being anti-slavery (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being racist (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being feminist (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being white (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being against universal background checks (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being pro democracy (laughs)."
Nothing sounds political there to you?
That's pretty much the point here I was trying to make a few pages earlier. Personally I would not get riled up about a statement like Ernie's, but I fully understand how people might be. Context matters. Ernie might not have intended to make a political statement, and your dad might not have intended to call your mom fat - but the result is all the same.
I understand the Pundit's criticism of the Twitter mob, and I understand the annoyance many others have expressed - but Ernie's bad decision-making should not be the hill many of us choose to die on. FWIW, he reminds me of how Mark Rein-Hagen used to poop on Twitter every couple of weeks, just a few years ago. - Wake me up when this fool actually contributes anything positive to the hobby other than never-ending durr-ama.
To return to an argument I was initially making - the community should be more careful to who it is lending the airtime. Ernie Gygax ain't Christopher Tolkien. The first mistake here is not Ernie saying what he said; it was that he was talking at all. Let's find legit ways for the 60+ crowd in the hobby to contribute in ways that don't require them to whore themselves out to "strip club owner"-type business people. Once we're there, things will fall in place.
Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 01:23:00 AM
That's pretty much the point here I was trying to make a few pages earlier. Personally I would not get riled up about a statement like Ernie's, but I fully understand how people might be. Context matters. Ernie might not have intended to make a political statement, and your dad might not have intended to call your mom fat - but the result is all the same.
Its not the pants that make mom look fat.
Blaming dad does not help the fattiness either.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 05, 2021, 01:32:11 AM
Its not the pants that make mom look fat.
Blaming dad does not help the fattiness either.
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." :D
- But Ernie made mistakes, that's the point. Had he not made them, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The interview was a mistake to begin with, the statements he made in there were a mistake, and his attempts at damage control were a mistake, as well. That he probably didn't mean to cause any harm doesn't change that. Like, I'm not a US citizen, so I miss some nuance about US-related topics sometimes - but just his comment alone about how WotC was behaving like some (supposedly cannibalistic?) American Indian tribe, holy shitballs in a blender. Either Ernie's saying stuff like this on purpose, or he needs to be protected from harming himself any further.
Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 02:19:18 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 05, 2021, 01:32:11 AM
Its not the pants that make mom look fat.
Blaming dad does not help the fattiness either.
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." :D
- But Ernie made mistakes, that's the point. Had he not made them, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The interview was a mistake to begin with, the statements he made in there were a mistake, and his attempts at damage control were a mistake, as well. That he probably didn't mean to cause any harm doesn't change that. Like, I'm not a US citizen, so I miss some nuance about US-related topics sometimes - but just his comment alone about how WotC was behaving like some (supposedly cannibalistic?) American Indian tribe,
There's been so much bullshit flung around about this interview, and I haven't had the time to comb through it. Anyone got a quote on what Ernie exactly said? Google search turns up paraphrases.
Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 02:19:18 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 05, 2021, 01:32:11 AM
Its not the pants that make mom look fat.
Blaming dad does not help the fattiness either.
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." :D
- But Ernie made mistakes, that's the point. Had he not made them, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The interview was a mistake to begin with, the statements he made in there were a mistake, and his attempts at damage control were a mistake, as well. That he probably didn't mean to cause any harm doesn't change that. Like, I'm not a US citizen, so I miss some nuance about US-related topics sometimes - but just his comment alone about how WotC was behaving like some (supposedly cannibalistic?) American Indian tribe, holy shitballs in a blender. Either Ernie's saying stuff like this on purpose, or he needs to be protected from harming himself any further.
All this discussion about how what Ernie said matters is reminding me of the logic behind, "If she didn't wear that dress, then she wouldn't have been raped."
Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 01:23:00 AM
I understand the Pundit's criticism of the Twitter mob, and I understand the annoyance many others have expressed - but Ernie's bad decision-making should not be the hill many of us choose to die on. FWIW, he reminds me of how Mark Rein-Hagen used to poop on Twitter every couple of weeks, just a few years ago. - Wake me up when this fool actually contributes anything positive to the hobby other than never-ending durr-ama.
To return to an argument I was initially making - the community should be more careful to who it is lending the airtime. Ernie Gygax ain't Christopher Tolkien. The first mistake here is not Ernie saying what he said; it was that he was talking at all. Let's find legit ways for the 60+ crowd in the hobby to contribute in ways that don't require them to whore themselves out to "strip club owner"-type business people. Once we're there, things will fall in place.
I'm the one who posted the list of Ernie's credits. All two of them. Co-authored with his dad. Probably token credits. He's not old TSR. He's not Gary Gygax. His contributions to the hobby are insignificant. He might have a story or two to tell, but that's about it. He has weird friends, and no apparent skill in expressing himself.
And it's a still a witch hunt. Which we should speak up against. As I've said before, the quality of the person should not be a factor. Freedom of speech doesn't have to be defended when someone everyone likes says something everyone agrees with. Freedom of speech must be defended when people we don't like say things we don't agree with. That you speak out against this says volumes about how much you value the basic principle.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 05, 2021, 02:25:54 AM
Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 02:19:18 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 05, 2021, 01:32:11 AM
Its not the pants that make mom look fat.
Blaming dad does not help the fattiness either.
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." :D
- But Ernie made mistakes, that's the point. Had he not made them, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The interview was a mistake to begin with, the statements he made in there were a mistake, and his attempts at damage control were a mistake, as well. That he probably didn't mean to cause any harm doesn't change that. Like, I'm not a US citizen, so I miss some nuance about US-related topics sometimes - but just his comment alone about how WotC was behaving like some (supposedly cannibalistic?) American Indian tribe,
There's been so much bullshit flung around about this interview, and I haven't had the time to comb through it. Anyone got a quote on what Ernie exactly said? Google search turns up paraphrases.
Enworld says this, lamentably without the proper timestamps:
https://www.enworld.org/threads/ernie-gygax-on-new-tsr-wotc-beefs-trademarks-licensees-5e-more.680877/
QuoteThey [WotC] just took as all corporate raiders do the treasures and then tried to make them their own. American Indians did the same thing they would, um, wipe out another tribe many times take the women and children and murder off everything else and leave to make your tribe that much better, room to grow.
No cannibalism, luckily. But still -
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/bfdaef0410b01593d00393bc26bc64e7/tumblr_ptqkovC9Oa1s9a9yjo1_400.gif)
Mind you, he's talking about a past (and possibly future) business partner here, someone he is probably in regular exchange with. That's what I'm saying, switch this fool's microphone off.
Quote from: Pat on July 05, 2021, 02:38:13 AMAnd it's a still a witch hunt. Which we should speak up against. As I've said before, the quality of the person should not be a factor. Freedom of speech doesn't have to be defended when someone everyone likes says something everyone agrees with. Freedom of speech must be defended when people we don't like say things we don't agree with. That you speak out against this says volumes about how much you value the basic principle.
Naah, not quite. Assessing that somebody is doing a poor job is not the same as "speaking out against freedom of speech". I'm not infringing Mr Gygax' freedom of speech by saying that I consider his statements unwise. Likewise, I'm not infringing Mr Gygax' rights by choosing not to give spend money on his product, the same way I don't infringe the rights of Pepsi by ordering a Diet Coke.
Gygax needs to do a way better job if he wants to gain prospective customers, plainly and simply. (Like me, for example!) This is also why I disagree that this is - for the most part, at least - a witch hunt. Man's saying stupid shit, man's winning stupid prizes. Now, there are surely people going overboard with their criticism, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong. The idiot repeatedly characterizing business contacts as active business partners, and using racial or war-like language to describe a past business relationship, however, clearly
is at fault.
Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 04:20:09 AM
Quote from: Pat on July 05, 2021, 02:38:13 AMAnd it's a still a witch hunt. Which we should speak up against. As I've said before, the quality of the person should not be a factor. Freedom of speech doesn't have to be defended when someone everyone likes says something everyone agrees with. Freedom of speech must be defended when people we don't like say things we don't agree with. That you speak out against this says volumes about how much you value the basic principle.
Naah, not quite. Assessing that somebody is doing a poor job is not the same as "speaking out against freedom of speech". I'm not infringing Mr Gygax' freedom of speech by saying that I consider his statements unwise. Likewise, I'm not infringing Mr Gygax' rights by choosing not to give spend money on his product, the same way I don't infringe the rights of Pepsi by ordering a Diet Coke.
Gygax needs to do a way better job if he wants to gain prospective customers, plainly and simply. (Like me, for example!) This is also why I disagree that this is - for the most part, at least - a witch hunt. Man's saying stupid shit, man's winning stupid prizes. Now, there are surely people going overboard with their criticism, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong. The idiot repeatedly characterizing business contacts as active business partners, and using racial or war-like language to describe a past business relationship, however, clearly is at fault.
It's exactly what you are doing. If you simply said you didn't want to to business with him, that's fine and reasonable. But he's being attacked in ways that are completely out of proportion to what he said. Just look at the Twitter responses, they're completely irrational, and the internet equivalent of a mob with pitchforks and burning torches. And you're defending them.
"Say stupid shit, win stupid prizes" has become one of the rallying cries of those who would erase free speech.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 04, 2021, 07:01:48 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.
Ernies "political statement" amounted to saying "there's people who want to play games without modern political indoctrination in them". That's all it was.
"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."
Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.
First: Those politics ARE dumb and they DON'T matter.
However, Ernie never said that.
All Ernie said was a place in his club for "some people who are old fashioned, don't follow modern trends, and may not have concepts of gender identity". Not that those concepts are dumb or don't matter, just that IT'S OK FOR SOME PEOPLE
NOT TO THINK AND TALK ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME EVERY DAY. And particularly it's ok for your RPG not to have to be ABOUT those concepts. Or even include those concepts at all, when there's not a good reason to include them.
But the response from the Totalitarian left is "No, that's not OK. Everyone MUST think and talk about our cult dogma every moment of every day, in every RPG they play, and if they don't we will try our very hardest to destroy their lives and hopefully drive them to suicide, because we're not quite sure we'd be allowed to murder them with impunity yet... just give us another 3 years or so for that though.."
The main problem with fighting these sociopaths, and what curbs alot of resistance, is that they can, will, and have resorted to violence and even indirect murder, and attempted murder now.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 05, 2021, 01:38:57 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 04, 2021, 07:01:48 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.
Ernies "political statement" amounted to saying "there's people who want to play games without modern political indoctrination in them". That's all it was.
"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."
Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.
First: Those politics ARE dumb and they DON'T matter.
However, Ernie never said that.
All Ernie said was a place in his club for "some people who are old fashioned, don't follow modern trends, and may not have concepts of gender identity". Not that those concepts are dumb or don't matter, just that IT'S OK FOR SOME PEOPLE NOT TO THINK AND TALK ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME EVERY DAY. And particularly it's ok for your RPG not to have to be ABOUT those concepts. Or even include those concepts at all, when there's not a good reason to include them.
But the response from the Totalitarian left is "No, that's not OK. Everyone MUST think and talk about our cult dogma every moment of every day, in every RPG they play, and if they don't we will try our very hardest to destroy their lives and hopefully drive them to suicide, because we're not quite sure we'd be allowed to murder them with impunity yet... just give us another 3 years or so for that though.."
The quote is about people who did things.
It's one thing to not talk about gender identity in your games. It's another to put stereotypes as well established facts in your game. "Well this wasn't a political thing to say 30 years ago." can include some very political statements.
Would an extreme help? If you put in your game, "these magic pants are only worn by male characters because women don't wear pants", then you made a political statement, even though that was not considered political 70 years ago. Saying then that similar writing is fine in RPGs is then a political statement. You are saying such people's political actions are not something to be concerned about.
Conservatives constantly assume their overt political statements are apolitical. It's a recurring theme.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 03:48:24 PM
Conservatives constantly assume their overt political statements are apolitical. It's a recurring theme.
Progressives like you constantly claim everything is political, which is why so much of the world has turned to shit.
Also, not everyone to the right of Mao is a conservative.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 03:48:24 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 05, 2021, 01:38:57 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 04, 2021, 07:01:48 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.
Ernies "political statement" amounted to saying "there's people who want to play games without modern political indoctrination in them". That's all it was.
"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."
Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.
First: Those politics ARE dumb and they DON'T matter.
However, Ernie never said that.
All Ernie said was a place in his club for "some people who are old fashioned, don't follow modern trends, and may not have concepts of gender identity". Not that those concepts are dumb or don't matter, just that IT'S OK FOR SOME PEOPLE NOT TO THINK AND TALK ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME EVERY DAY. And particularly it's ok for your RPG not to have to be ABOUT those concepts. Or even include those concepts at all, when there's not a good reason to include them.
But the response from the Totalitarian left is "No, that's not OK. Everyone MUST think and talk about our cult dogma every moment of every day, in every RPG they play, and if they don't we will try our very hardest to destroy their lives and hopefully drive them to suicide, because we're not quite sure we'd be allowed to murder them with impunity yet... just give us another 3 years or so for that though.."
The quote is about people who did things.
It's one thing to not talk about gender identity in your games. It's another to put stereotypes as well established facts in your game. "Well this wasn't a political thing to say 30 years ago." can include some very political statements.
Would an extreme help? If you put in your game, "these magic pants are only worn by male characters because women don't wear pants", then you made a political statement, even though that was not considered political 70 years ago. Saying then that similar writing is fine in RPGs is then a political statement. You are saying such people's political actions are not something to be concerned about.
Conservatives constantly assume their overt political statements are apolitical. It's a recurring theme.
This is because Leftists politicize *everything* for the express purpose of gaining power, influence or advantage. See how that works?
This recent attempt is a very American-flavored variety of pitting races against one another, and building a coalition around anyone and anything viewed as a minority to be against the cultural structure.
This is where the whole statement, "You may not care about politics, but politics cares about you." (thanks Pericles) was re-branded by Trotsky who brought it to its natural conclusion: war.
You may be too ideologically grasped to pull yourself out, and realize you sit among a pile of outliers that are raging for the sake of raging. At some point you'll realize YOU are not one of them. This whole coalition of LGBT+ cannot sustain itself. It's only a useful tool for the real Leftists, who themselves are tools, for Globalist elites to have their dystopian utopia. A peasant utopia for them. A dystopian hell for us.
Yes it starts by activating weirdos to start burning shit down - gaming, comics, movies, pop-culture writ large. While the more politically minded assholes start burning down actual reality - see Portland. While political assholes grasped by this ideology start implementing policies that destroy our capacity to maintain our culture. This isn't rocket science. It only takes immense cognitive dissonance to 1) pretend it's not starting 2) believe it's true 3) pretend YOU won't be part of the purge when it goes down.
Rhedyn - I'm willing to bet there are people over at TBP that would wish you harm simply for posting here on this forum. Evil is transitive, didn't you know? You may not be interested in Evil. Evil is very interested in you.
That's what I heard.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 03:48:24 PM
The quote is about people who did things.
It's one thing to not talk about gender identity in your games. It's another to put stereotypes as well established facts in your game. "Well this wasn't a political thing to say 30 years ago." can include some very political statements.
Would an extreme help? If you put in your game, "these magic pants are only worn by male characters because women don't wear pants", then you made a political statement, even though that was not considered political 70 years ago. Saying then that similar writing is fine in RPGs is then a political statement. You are saying such people's political actions are not something to be concerned about.
Conservatives constantly assume their overt political statements are apolitical. It's a recurring theme.
If I did that, it would not be a political statement, it would be a statement regarding a/the culture in my campaign. And I use stereotypes all of the time in my game. But then I do not subscribe to the idea that my RPG milieu has has to be 2020 Seattle or S.F. That said, if that's how you want to run your game, go for it.
But think of the orcs!
Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 02:50:59 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 05, 2021, 02:25:54 AM
Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 02:19:18 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 05, 2021, 01:32:11 AM
Its not the pants that make mom look fat.
Blaming dad does not help the fattiness either.
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose." :D
- But Ernie made mistakes, that's the point. Had he not made them, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The interview was a mistake to begin with, the statements he made in there were a mistake, and his attempts at damage control were a mistake, as well. That he probably didn't mean to cause any harm doesn't change that. Like, I'm not a US citizen, so I miss some nuance about US-related topics sometimes - but just his comment alone about how WotC was behaving like some (supposedly cannibalistic?) American Indian tribe,
There's been so much bullshit flung around about this interview, and I haven't had the time to comb through it. Anyone got a quote on what Ernie exactly said? Google search turns up paraphrases.
Enworld says this, lamentably without the proper timestamps:
https://www.enworld.org/threads/ernie-gygax-on-new-tsr-wotc-beefs-trademarks-licensees-5e-more.680877/
QuoteThey [WotC] just took as all corporate raiders do the treasures and then tried to make them their own. American Indians did the same thing they would, um, wipe out another tribe many times take the women and children and murder off everything else and leave to make your tribe that much better, room to grow.
No cannibalism, luckily. But still -
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/bfdaef0410b01593d00393bc26bc64e7/tumblr_ptqkovC9Oa1s9a9yjo1_400.gif)
Mind you, he's talking about a past (and possibly future) business partner here, someone he is probably in regular exchange with. That's what I'm saying, switch this fool's microphone off.
What's starting to irk me is that people seems to want to embellish the "record". I've had to correct people twice in this thread by simply asking for clarification and finding out people were making crap up.
And I don't find his actual comparison to be any kind of problem. All people over the course of history tried to kill their neighbors and take their stuff. The only thing "problematic" about his statement is that it used native americans as the subject, and everyone loses their shit over the natives because of identitiy victim politics. Which tracks neatly to the stuff Ernie was talking about.
Again, good on him. The only people getting upset are the types who I really don't give a shit about. I'd be willing to toss him some money if he ever puts out some product that's worth my dime.
Quote from: tenbones on July 05, 2021, 04:07:17 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 03:48:24 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 05, 2021, 01:38:57 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 04, 2021, 07:01:48 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.
Ernies "political statement" amounted to saying "there's people who want to play games without modern political indoctrination in them". That's all it was.
"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."
Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.
First: Those politics ARE dumb and they DON'T matter.
However, Ernie never said that.
All Ernie said was a place in his club for "some people who are old fashioned, don't follow modern trends, and may not have concepts of gender identity". Not that those concepts are dumb or don't matter, just that IT'S OK FOR SOME PEOPLE NOT TO THINK AND TALK ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME EVERY DAY. And particularly it's ok for your RPG not to have to be ABOUT those concepts. Or even include those concepts at all, when there's not a good reason to include them.
But the response from the Totalitarian left is "No, that's not OK. Everyone MUST think and talk about our cult dogma every moment of every day, in every RPG they play, and if they don't we will try our very hardest to destroy their lives and hopefully drive them to suicide, because we're not quite sure we'd be allowed to murder them with impunity yet... just give us another 3 years or so for that though.."
The quote is about people who did things.
It's one thing to not talk about gender identity in your games. It's another to put stereotypes as well established facts in your game. "Well this wasn't a political thing to say 30 years ago." can include some very political statements.
Would an extreme help? If you put in your game, "these magic pants are only worn by male characters because women don't wear pants", then you made a political statement, even though that was not considered political 70 years ago. Saying then that similar writing is fine in RPGs is then a political statement. You are saying such people's political actions are not something to be concerned about.
Conservatives constantly assume their overt political statements are apolitical. It's a recurring theme.
This is because Leftists politicize *everything* for the express purpose of gaining power, influence or advantage. See how that works?
This recent attempt is a very American-flavored variety of pitting races against one another, and building a coalition around anyone and anything viewed as a minority to be against the cultural structure.
This is where the whole statement, "You may not care about politics, but politics cares about you." (thanks Pericles) was re-branded by Trotsky who brought it to its natural conclusion: war.
You may be too ideologically grasped to pull yourself out, and realize you sit among a pile of outliers that are raging for the sake of raging. At some point you'll realize YOU are not one of them. This whole coalition of LGBT+ cannot sustain itself. It's only a useful tool for the real Leftists, who themselves are tools, for Globalist elites to have their dystopian utopia. A peasant utopia for them. A dystopian hell for us.
Yes it starts by activating weirdos to start burning shit down - gaming, comics, movies, pop-culture writ large. While the more politically minded assholes start burning down actual reality - see Portland. While political assholes grasped by this ideology start implementing policies that destroy our capacity to maintain our culture. This isn't rocket science. It only takes immense cognitive dissonance to 1) pretend it's not starting 2) believe it's true 3) pretend YOU won't be part of the purge when it goes down.
Rhedyn - I'm willing to bet there are people over at TBP that would wish you harm simply for posting here on this forum. Evil is transitive, didn't you know? You may not be interested in Evil. Evil is very interested in you.
That's what I heard.
COVID, wearing masks, and vaccination also became political since a party leader decided to have opinions on it. The only real difference between the Right politicizing issues and the Left, is that it's so stupid that any grand conspiracy I could attribute to it still seems stupid.
If Trump acted quicker, implemented border quarantine rules, and encouraged wearing masks and contact tracing/self-quarantining. The number of lockdowns and overall deaths would have been reduced so much that he would still be president. None of the pre-vaccine methods were going to do much with a third of Americans refusing to follow them and new flare up being imported daily.
Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 05:49:55 PM
Quote from: tenbones on July 05, 2021, 04:07:17 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 03:48:24 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 05, 2021, 01:38:57 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 04, 2021, 07:01:48 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.
Ernies "political statement" amounted to saying "there's people who want to play games without modern political indoctrination in them". That's all it was.
"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."
Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.
First: Those politics ARE dumb and they DON'T matter.
However, Ernie never said that.
All Ernie said was a place in his club for "some people who are old fashioned, don't follow modern trends, and may not have concepts of gender identity". Not that those concepts are dumb or don't matter, just that IT'S OK FOR SOME PEOPLE NOT TO THINK AND TALK ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME EVERY DAY. And particularly it's ok for your RPG not to have to be ABOUT those concepts. Or even include those concepts at all, when there's not a good reason to include them.
But the response from the Totalitarian left is "No, that's not OK. Everyone MUST think and talk about our cult dogma every moment of every day, in every RPG they play, and if they don't we will try our very hardest to destroy their lives and hopefully drive them to suicide, because we're not quite sure we'd be allowed to murder them with impunity yet... just give us another 3 years or so for that though.."
The quote is about people who did things.
It's one thing to not talk about gender identity in your games. It's another to put stereotypes as well established facts in your game. "Well this wasn't a political thing to say 30 years ago." can include some very political statements.
Would an extreme help? If you put in your game, "these magic pants are only worn by male characters because women don't wear pants", then you made a political statement, even though that was not considered political 70 years ago. Saying then that similar writing is fine in RPGs is then a political statement. You are saying such people's political actions are not something to be concerned about.
Conservatives constantly assume their overt political statements are apolitical. It's a recurring theme.
This is because Leftists politicize *everything* for the express purpose of gaining power, influence or advantage. See how that works?
This recent attempt is a very American-flavored variety of pitting races against one another, and building a coalition around anyone and anything viewed as a minority to be against the cultural structure.
This is where the whole statement, "You may not care about politics, but politics cares about you." (thanks Pericles) was re-branded by Trotsky who brought it to its natural conclusion: war.
You may be too ideologically grasped to pull yourself out, and realize you sit among a pile of outliers that are raging for the sake of raging. At some point you'll realize YOU are not one of them. This whole coalition of LGBT+ cannot sustain itself. It's only a useful tool for the real Leftists, who themselves are tools, for Globalist elites to have their dystopian utopia. A peasant utopia for them. A dystopian hell for us.
Yes it starts by activating weirdos to start burning shit down - gaming, comics, movies, pop-culture writ large. While the more politically minded assholes start burning down actual reality - see Portland. While political assholes grasped by this ideology start implementing policies that destroy our capacity to maintain our culture. This isn't rocket science. It only takes immense cognitive dissonance to 1) pretend it's not starting 2) believe it's true 3) pretend YOU won't be part of the purge when it goes down.
Rhedyn - I'm willing to bet there are people over at TBP that would wish you harm simply for posting here on this forum. Evil is transitive, didn't you know? You may not be interested in Evil. Evil is very interested in you.
That's what I heard.
COVID, wearing masks, and vaccination also became political since a party leader decided to have opinions on it. The only real difference between the Right politicizing issues and the Left, is that it's so stupid that any grand conspiracy I could attribute to it still seems stupid.
If Trump acted quicker, implemented border quarantine rules, and encouraged wearing masks and contact tracing/self-quarantining. The number of lockdowns and overall deaths would have been reduced so much that he would still be president. None of the pre-vaccine methods were going to do much with a third of Americans refusing to follow them and new flare up being imported daily.
Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.
Give me a number.
What ticks me off the most about this is that I want to buy a product made by Jim ward. I don't care about the philosophy of Ernie or Lanasa. I want to see what Jim ward did. And I love everything he had produced hope this is just as good.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 03:48:24 PM
If you put in your game, "these magic pants are only worn by male characters because women don't wear pants", then you made a political statement, even though that was not considered political 70 years ago.
Those pants may have been majicked by a wizard to only work on men. Maybe it was a taboo in the wizard's culture.
It's a great idea for flavor. Perhaps the wizard also created magic dresses that can't be worn by men.
We create fantasy worlds often ones that assume ancient or medieval worlds that simply don't respect modern progressive values at all.
They are alien to the worlds we create. And there are a substantial number of players who simply don't buy into the idea that anyone
who creates a world with "non-woke" cultures is themselves some sort of cretin.
Quote from: tenbones on July 04, 2021, 03:35:18 AM
Quote from: DocJones on July 03, 2021, 07:17:44 PM
I'd want to ask GenCon what their community manager means by "White silence is white consent".
Do I have to make some sort of racialist affirmation to play a game at their con?
You know exactly what it means. This is what I'm talking about. It's purely rhetorical but what do you REALLY expect them to tell you if indeed you even asked them? You know damn well what they mean. What does that fact MEAN to you? Do you really want to go participate at their Con?
Yeah, but I'm expecting them answer something along the lines of "We're not going to expend the emotional labor to explain it to you" or "We recommend reading 'White Fragility' by Robin DiAngelo" just for shits and giggles.
The last GenCon I attended was the 50th anniversary. Since then we've been attending Origins (This was mostly due to extreme overcrowding (60K+ to 17K+) and a higher attendee to event ratio.) Origin's also went woke banning Larry Correia the first year we attended. I did my part annoying them by asking "Where's Larry? I came to see Larry Correia, not you guys." every time we went by the authors area. :-)
Quote from: tenbones on July 04, 2021, 03:35:18 AM
I mean it would be like asking me if I want to go participate at a shit-eating contest.
Why that's true, most of the people I met there were not SJWs, neither were most of the GMs.
It wasn't so bad eating shit sandwiches together when you are sitting at a table were everyone eye-rolls at the crap the con is pushing.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 05, 2021, 05:57:53 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 05:49:55 PM
Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.
Give me a number.
There's no point in responding to anyone who thinks Joe Biden is Far Right. They're so lost in their delusions that no reason can reach them.
Its actually a known feature of the indoctrination process used by the Marxists that anyone who disagrees with the Marxist position is an oppressor who must be resisted. You can't deprogram them or reason with them. They have no reason left to reach.
They worship an ideology who's leaders have murdered more people than any in history and can't wait to get permission to legally murder everyone they disagree with too. They'll say that's ridiculous, but piles of bodies in the hundred+ million range say they're lying, because that's what Marxists do.
Also, remember, in a Leftist's head all the crap they're adding to games and forcing onto the country isn't political to them... its just correct thinking. Only those to their political right can be political in their delusional state.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 05:49:55 PM
If Trump acted quicker, implemented border quarantine rules, and encouraged wearing masks and contact tracing/self-quarantining.
This is not a sentence :(
Must have gone to elementary school in a blue state.
How about if we take the politics to Pundit's forum and stick to the thread topic.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 03:48:24 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 05, 2021, 01:38:57 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 04, 2021, 07:01:48 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.
Ernies "political statement" amounted to saying "there's people who want to play games without modern political indoctrination in them". That's all it was.
"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."
Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.
First: Those politics ARE dumb and they DON'T matter.
However, Ernie never said that.
All Ernie said was a place in his club for "some people who are old fashioned, don't follow modern trends, and may not have concepts of gender identity". Not that those concepts are dumb or don't matter, just that IT'S OK FOR SOME PEOPLE NOT TO THINK AND TALK ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME EVERY DAY. And particularly it's ok for your RPG not to have to be ABOUT those concepts. Or even include those concepts at all, when there's not a good reason to include them.
But the response from the Totalitarian left is "No, that's not OK. Everyone MUST think and talk about our cult dogma every moment of every day, in every RPG they play, and if they don't we will try our very hardest to destroy their lives and hopefully drive them to suicide, because we're not quite sure we'd be allowed to murder them with impunity yet... just give us another 3 years or so for that though.."
The quote is about people who did things.
It's one thing to not talk about gender identity in your games. It's another to put stereotypes as well established facts in your game. "Well this wasn't a political thing to say 30 years ago." can include some very political statements.
Would an extreme help? If you put in your game, "these magic pants are only worn by male characters because women don't wear pants", then you made a political statement, even though that was not considered political 70 years ago. Saying then that similar writing is fine in RPGs is then a political statement. You are saying such people's political actions are not something to be concerned about.
Conservatives constantly assume their overt political statements are apolitical. It's a recurring theme.
Leftists want every setting to be political indoctrination into their 21st century Seattle/Portland values.
If you had a setting where women didn't wear pants, saying "women don't wear pants" is not a political statement. If running a game in a historical setting with conventional morality and customs of that historical period is a "political statement", you're saying people can't run games set in those eras. You're essentially demanding the destruction of history.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 05:49:55 PM
COVID, wearing masks, and vaccination also became political since a party leader decided to have opinions on it. The only real difference between the Right politicizing issues and the Left, is that it's so stupid that any grand conspiracy I could attribute to it still seems stupid.
If Trump acted quicker, implemented border quarantine rules, and encouraged wearing masks and contact tracing/self-quarantining. The number of lockdowns and overall deaths would have been reduced so much that he would still be president. None of the pre-vaccine methods were going to do much with a third of Americans refusing to follow them and new flare up being imported daily.
Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.
This is veering into an off-topic political post. This is not a place to make political discussions outside of gaming. Please keep your posts to talking about politics only WITHIN the subject of gaming.
Consider this a warning.
You will be made to care.
That's their ideal, their endgame. It is not enough for to say 'OK, you enjoy this, but I enjoy this other thing, and prefer to do that'. You must approve of their diverse, inclusive vision, or you are just a bigoted shitlord.
And so it is with gaming. It used to be nobody minded if, to draw an example, Shark liked Twilight 2000 and I was happily running Paranoia. It was okay! Obviously we wouldn't have much overlap beyond the core 'we all roll the polyhedral dice'. Now, though, we have some dangerhaired lackwit insisting both Shark and I are terrible people for enjoying T2000 or Paranoia and we should be playing Coyote and Crow (and throw some money to make up for our privilege, too).
And that's why the proper response is to just say 'no'. And when they become strident, kick them out.
Meh.
D&D survived the religious right upset by the demons and "witchcraft", it'll survive the left demanding orcs be equated with black people and transgendered married couples in magical wheelchairs.
Who knows. Maybe 30 years from now when the then old stupids have been replaced with the then new stupids, we'll have something interesting from all of this. And the new stupids complaining about God only knows what ("the use of elementals is offensive because it continues the stereotype that the Earth is meant to be exploited!").
(Digression: Personally, I wish a more genuinely ethnically diverse setting might arise in D&D, so we could all go back to bashing orcs with impunity. The Sword Coast may be intentionally designed to be generic and easily digested/modded, but I personally like settings that embrace having more of a unique feel to them. Some more distinct cultures and ethnicities would be a good thing in my book, and I think a lot of people's.
Honestly though, even a more ethnically diverse setting wouldn't make the "orcs=blacks" people happy. In working on a scenario I've stumbled across the pearl clutching regarding Tcho-Tchos in Delta Green, and realize that the people who say they're upset by inhuman races genuinely have problems separating "fictional non-human race of monsters" from "person of color". You never see them thinking a community of monstrous frog people in Innsmouth is reflective of all white people, yet Tcho-Tchos are somehow reflective of all Asians to them (ignoring the fact that Tcho-Tchos are consistently depicted as being hated by every other Asian culture they bump up against).)
So, yet more intrigue from TSR 3.0
First, their twitter account had this, "Hi everyone, I am the new Public Relations Officer for [TSR]. The individual that was handling this account is no longer with TSR. Please direct all future TSR3 communications to me." It continued on, and was signed by "Michael".
(https://i.ibb.co/xjW9k9v/mike1-png.png)
Yesterday, "Michael's" posts disappeared from the Twitter accounts.
A Twitter user who follows TSR asked about it, responding to a further tweet about 4th of July, "Is this Michael speaking? Blink twice if you're OK." and was immediately blocked.
No sign of "Michael" since.
So, did TSR 3.0 make up "Michael" to try and repair the damage LaNasa had done? Sure looks that way. TSR 3.0 only had a couple of employees to begin with, so the claim they had "fired" whoever had been controlling the Twitter account previously (which at one point was claimed to be LaNasa himself) seems likely false.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 05:49:55 PM
Quote from: tenbones on July 05, 2021, 04:07:17 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 03:48:24 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 05, 2021, 01:38:57 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 04, 2021, 07:01:48 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 03, 2021, 05:59:13 PM
It's a bit simpler than Venger is putting it.
What we should ask, not just to conventions but demand an answer from everyone who has a claim to any part of this hobby: Is it acceptable for an RPG game to just be about fun without infusing it with any modern political agenda, yes or no?
Then we have to make a list.
This whole kerfuffle started because Ernie knowingly made a political statement, so I don't see your point or argument.
Ernies "political statement" amounted to saying "there's people who want to play games without modern political indoctrination in them". That's all it was.
"TSR has been gone. There's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)."
Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.
First: Those politics ARE dumb and they DON'T matter.
However, Ernie never said that.
All Ernie said was a place in his club for "some people who are old fashioned, don't follow modern trends, and may not have concepts of gender identity". Not that those concepts are dumb or don't matter, just that IT'S OK FOR SOME PEOPLE NOT TO THINK AND TALK ABOUT THEM ALL THE TIME EVERY DAY. And particularly it's ok for your RPG not to have to be ABOUT those concepts. Or even include those concepts at all, when there's not a good reason to include them.
But the response from the Totalitarian left is "No, that's not OK. Everyone MUST think and talk about our cult dogma every moment of every day, in every RPG they play, and if they don't we will try our very hardest to destroy their lives and hopefully drive them to suicide, because we're not quite sure we'd be allowed to murder them with impunity yet... just give us another 3 years or so for that though.."
The quote is about people who did things.
It's one thing to not talk about gender identity in your games. It's another to put stereotypes as well established facts in your game. "Well this wasn't a political thing to say 30 years ago." can include some very political statements.
Would an extreme help? If you put in your game, "these magic pants are only worn by male characters because women don't wear pants", then you made a political statement, even though that was not considered political 70 years ago. Saying then that similar writing is fine in RPGs is then a political statement. You are saying such people's political actions are not something to be concerned about.
Conservatives constantly assume their overt political statements are apolitical. It's a recurring theme.
This is because Leftists politicize *everything* for the express purpose of gaining power, influence or advantage. See how that works?
This recent attempt is a very American-flavored variety of pitting races against one another, and building a coalition around anyone and anything viewed as a minority to be against the cultural structure.
This is where the whole statement, "You may not care about politics, but politics cares about you." (thanks Pericles) was re-branded by Trotsky who brought it to its natural conclusion: war.
You may be too ideologically grasped to pull yourself out, and realize you sit among a pile of outliers that are raging for the sake of raging. At some point you'll realize YOU are not one of them. This whole coalition of LGBT+ cannot sustain itself. It's only a useful tool for the real Leftists, who themselves are tools, for Globalist elites to have their dystopian utopia. A peasant utopia for them. A dystopian hell for us.
Yes it starts by activating weirdos to start burning shit down - gaming, comics, movies, pop-culture writ large. While the more politically minded assholes start burning down actual reality - see Portland. While political assholes grasped by this ideology start implementing policies that destroy our capacity to maintain our culture. This isn't rocket science. It only takes immense cognitive dissonance to 1) pretend it's not starting 2) believe it's true 3) pretend YOU won't be part of the purge when it goes down.
Rhedyn - I'm willing to bet there are people over at TBP that would wish you harm simply for posting here on this forum. Evil is transitive, didn't you know? You may not be interested in Evil. Evil is very interested in you.
That's what I heard.
COVID, wearing masks, and vaccination also became political since a party leader decided to have opinions on it. The only real difference between the Right politicizing issues and the Left, is that it's so stupid that any grand conspiracy I could attribute to it still seems stupid.
If Trump acted quicker, implemented border quarantine rules, and encouraged wearing masks and contact tracing/self-quarantining. The number of lockdowns and overall deaths would have been reduced so much that he would still be president. None of the pre-vaccine methods were going to do much with a third of Americans refusing to follow them and new flare up being imported daily.
Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.
If my Aunty had a penis she'd be my uncle.
This forum is made more stupid by your framing of your claims. You entirely ignore the fact that some of these things you claim are conspiracies - were actually true. You ignore the fact that people have a choice in their beliefs and actions for themselves and choose to do so - the fact it's political is because morons that believe in centralized authority to dictate everything in their lives takes precedence over the individual. They don't.
And you're moving this away from gaming - which as hobby suffers from the same stupid framing you're using here. You may not be American (I have no idea) but the streak of individualism in America is pretty strong. I suspect there is a good chance that a lot of people that don't understand how strong this inclination is will be forced to find out.
Then again I live in Texas. I could be biased. Yee-haw, and all that.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 06, 2021, 12:05:28 AM]Leftists want every setting to be political indoctrination into their 21st century Seattle/Portland values.
If you had a setting where women didn't wear pants, saying "women don't wear pants" is not a political statement. If running a game in a historical setting with conventional morality and customs of that historical period is a "political statement", you're saying people can't run games set in those eras. You're essentially demanding the destruction of history.
It's pretty trivial to point out in your game what is a setting social pressure vs something presented as an objective fact.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 06, 2021, 12:08:02 AM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 05:49:55 PM
COVID, wearing masks, and vaccination also became political since a party leader decided to have opinions on it. The only real difference between the Right politicizing issues and the Left, is that it's so stupid that any grand conspiracy I could attribute to it still seems stupid.
If Trump acted quicker, implemented border quarantine rules, and encouraged wearing masks and contact tracing/self-quarantining. The number of lockdowns and overall deaths would have been reduced so much that he would still be president. None of the pre-vaccine methods were going to do much with a third of Americans refusing to follow them and new flare up being imported daily.
Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.
This is veering into an off-topic political post. This is not a place to make political discussions outside of gaming. Please keep your posts to talking about politics only WITHIN the subject of gaming.
Consider this a warning.
Now who is making things political that aren't? Every statement in there was made political by "The Right".
Ever consider how stupid, "Rightest make everything political even basic science to exert control and gain political power." sounds? You believe in all these "The Left" conspiracy theories. Have you ever considered that it's just a bunch of people disagreeing with others being assholes and not some coordinated effort to come after your hobbies?
Mobs are controlled by emotional impulses, and that cuts both ways.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 06, 2021, 11:13:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 06, 2021, 12:05:28 AM]Leftists want every setting to be political indoctrination into their 21st century Seattle/Portland values.
If you had a setting where women didn't wear pants, saying "women don't wear pants" is not a political statement. If running a game in a historical setting with conventional morality and customs of that historical period is a "political statement", you're saying people can't run games set in those eras. You're essentially demanding the destruction of history.
It's pretty trivial to point out in your game what is a setting social pressure vs something presented as an objective fact.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 06, 2021, 12:08:02 AM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 05, 2021, 05:49:55 PM
COVID, wearing masks, and vaccination also became political since a party leader decided to have opinions on it. The only real difference between the Right politicizing issues and the Left, is that it's so stupid that any grand conspiracy I could attribute to it still seems stupid.
If Trump acted quicker, implemented border quarantine rules, and encouraged wearing masks and contact tracing/self-quarantining. The number of lockdowns and overall deaths would have been reduced so much that he would still be president. None of the pre-vaccine methods were going to do much with a third of Americans refusing to follow them and new flare up being imported daily.
Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.
This is veering into an off-topic political post. This is not a place to make political discussions outside of gaming. Please keep your posts to talking about politics only WITHIN the subject of gaming.
Consider this a warning.
Now who is making things political that aren't? Every statement in there was made political by "The Right".
Ever consider how stupid, "Rightest make everything political even basic science to exert control and gain political power." sounds? You believe in all these "The Left" conspiracy theories. Have you ever considered that it's just a bunch of people disagreeing with others being assholes and not some coordinated effort to come after your hobbies?
Mobs are controlled by emotional impulses, and that cuts both ways.
We should all defer to your clearly greater experience in being controlled by emotional impulses.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 06, 2021, 08:21:14 AM
And so it is with gaming. It used to be nobody minded if, to draw an example, Shark liked Twilight 2000 and I was happily running Paranoia. It was okay! Obviously we wouldn't have much overlap beyond the core 'we all roll the polyhedral dice'. Now, though, we have some dangerhaired lackwit insisting both Shark and I are terrible people for enjoying T2000 or Paranoia and we should be playing Coyote and Crow (and throw some money to make up for our privilege, too).
Thing have become far more political in the last few years, but one-true-wayism has been around since the start as far as I can tell. I saw plenty of online fights in the 1990s where people argued in favor of their preferred system, and insulted those playing others. GURPS vs Hero, diceless vs dice-using, D&D vs White Wolf, etc. Usenet moderators tried to split flamewars out of rec.games.frp.misc into rec.games.frp.advocacy.
And in the 2000s that carried over onto this and other forums. On The Forge, Ron Edwards insulted wide swaths of people playing traditional games. Here, Pundit and others said that people were terrible for enjoying the Blue Rose RPG.
In the right circumstances, I'll play with almost anyone that doesn't hate me and want me dead. Where the disagreement arises is with people that think they don't hate me and want me dead when put in those terms, but in practice the way they act would make that the case. The term "useless idiots" wasn't coined by the West.
There was a time when I would have played with a useless idiot if they could keep their mouths shut about their idiocy while the game was going--if for no other reasons merely good manners. Now, most of them seemed to have lost whatever remaining filter they might have once possessed.
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 06, 2021, 11:13:25 AM
Now who is making things political that aren't? Every statement in there was made political by "The Right".
Ever consider how stupid, "Rightest make everything political even basic science to exert control and gain political power." sounds? You believe in all these "The Left" conspiracy theories. Have you ever considered that it's just a bunch of people disagreeing with others being assholes and not some coordinated effort to come after your hobbies?
Mobs are controlled by emotional impulses, and that cuts both ways.
This isn't a debate about what is or is not political; this is a warning against posting things that are OFF-TOPIC to the subject of gaming. If you started a post in this thread about trains, or volleyball, or alfalfa cultivation, with nothing to do with the specific subject of the subforum, you are posting off-topic.
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2021, 03:46:11 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 06, 2021, 08:21:14 AM
And so it is with gaming. It used to be nobody minded if, to draw an example, Shark liked Twilight 2000 and I was happily running Paranoia. It was okay! Obviously we wouldn't have much overlap beyond the core 'we all roll the polyhedral dice'. Now, though, we have some dangerhaired lackwit insisting both Shark and I are terrible people for enjoying T2000 or Paranoia and we should be playing Coyote and Crow (and throw some money to make up for our privilege, too).
Thing have become far more political in the last few years, but one-true-wayism has been around since the start as far as I can tell. I saw plenty of online fights in the 1990s where people argued in favor of their preferred system, and insulted those playing others. GURPS vs Hero, diceless vs dice-using, D&D vs White Wolf, etc. Usenet moderators tried to split flamewars out of rec.games.frp.misc into rec.games.frp.advocacy.
And in the 2000s that carried over onto this and other forums. On The Forge, Ron Edwards insulted wide swaths of people playing traditional games. Here, Pundit and others said that people were terrible for enjoying the Blue Rose RPG.
Nice false equivalence. When was one-true-wayism used to destroy people's lives and drive them to suicide?
When an argument over "You're playing wrong" turned into a mob outside someone's house trying to break in and kill the people inside?
You're comparing stupid arguments among people with a mob of religious zealots.
Quote from: Rafael on July 05, 2021, 01:23:00 AM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 11:32:54 PM
Quote from: Pat on July 04, 2021, 11:06:15 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on July 04, 2021, 10:29:18 PM
Saying "these politics are dumb and don't matter" is a strong political statement.
Only in Bizarro world. In any approximation of the real world, saying politics are dumb and don't matter is pretty much the definition of apolitical.
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being anti-abortion (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being anti-slavery (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being racist (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being feminist (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being white (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being against universal background checks (laughs)."
"There's a ton of people..... and recently they were dissed for being pro democracy (laughs)."
Nothing sounds political there to you?
That's pretty much the point here I was trying to make a few pages earlier. Personally I would not get riled up about a statement like Ernie's, but I fully understand how people might be. Context matters. Ernie might not have intended to make a political statement, and your dad might not have intended to call your mom fat - but the result is all the same.
I understand the Pundit's criticism of the Twitter mob, and I understand the annoyance many others have expressed - but Ernie's bad decision-making should not be the hill many of us choose to die on. FWIW, he reminds me of how Mark Rein-Hagen used to poop on Twitter every couple of weeks, just a few years ago. - Wake me up when this fool actually contributes anything positive to the hobby other than never-ending durr-ama.
To return to an argument I was initially making - the community should be more careful to who it is lending the airtime. Ernie Gygax ain't Christopher Tolkien. The first mistake here is not Ernie saying what he said; it was that he was talking at all. Let's find legit ways for the 60+ crowd in the hobby to contribute in ways that don't require them to whore themselves out to "strip club owner"-type business people. Once we're there, things will fall in place.
That's kind of crappy to say. Older gamers or old-fashioned / old-school gamers should be seen and not heard? We should find something for them to do in the back? Keep them busy so the younger, flashy, nu-speak gamers can navigate the treacherous political waters?
Maybe this whole incident was the lightning rod we needed right now to charge up that hill and die upon it, if need be. The fighting back should have started years ago. The silent majority seems to be waking up now, that's good. But don't go back to sleep. Keep fighting!
TSR 3.0 is now the Schrodingers TSR. They both the literal old TSR and not the old TSR "in any way."
First they claimed they were the TSR which started Gencon (though Gencon was started 5 years before the original TSR):
(https://i.ibb.co/wQs9jdZ/screen-shot-2021-07-07-at-11-03-23-am-png.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/cFNdqD0/genconban.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/ncMgvCn/created-png.png)
And then they claim they are not the old TSR "in any way."
(https://i.ibb.co/rQT6q0r/screen-shot-2021-07-07-at-10-53-39-am-png.png)
It's a chimera, dancing in a mirage, that smells like sweet shit, while wrapped in gold chiffon, hog-tied in a gift-basket with red lipstick and hand-drawn eyebrows scrawled on its head.
I have no idea what to make of it except I want nothing to do with it.
I'm just waiting for them to put out a game. It seems like something that a gaming company should do.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 07, 2021, 12:19:30 PM
...
Maybe this whole incident was the lightning rod we needed right now to charge up that hill and die upon it, if need be. The fighting back should have started years ago. The silent majority seems to be waking up now, that's good. But don't go back to sleep. Keep fighting!
I disagree.
The fact is that Ernie & Co. / NuTSR are
not allies:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/tsr-is-coming-back-or-it-is-back/
Just on page one in that thread - it is obvious for anyone with eyes to see that NuTSR was going to be a train wreck from the start.
Pundits instinct was right - it was just a nostalgia money grab.
Even Mistwell's post is right on point here; these guys don't know whether they are coming or going...
That this incident might serve to wake a few people up - fine.
But NuTSR is a compost pile, not Rorke's Drift.
The wokeoso's are playing a variant of one of the left's favorite games: "Look at the Crazy
X..."
Insert 'christian' or 'consrvative' or in this case 'Grognard gamer' in place of X.
They love, love, love, to find a crazy outlier to gin up an outrage storm against; to then conflate them with the rest of everyone else that the can say is adjacent to them that they don't like.
So they found a semi functional adult sperg to beat up on, which because of his last name they are trying to drag down people they don't like with him.
Aside from mocking them a bit and pointing out their tactics it's best to not feed the outrage machine at this point.
I will say that the way that this was jumped on so hard shows signs that the SJW cognoscenti seemed to feel
very threatened by the potential resurgence of the old brand for some reason...
It was obvious to anyone that NuTSR was going nowhere. Total flash in the pan.
But the idea of a TSR resurgence?? They didn't like that
At All.
Straight to total curb-stomp mode...
Quote from: Jaeger on July 07, 2021, 02:14:01 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 07, 2021, 12:19:30 PM
...
Maybe this whole incident was the lightning rod we needed right now to charge up that hill and die upon it, if need be. The fighting back should have started years ago. The silent majority seems to be waking up now, that's good. But don't go back to sleep. Keep fighting!
I disagree.
The fact is that Ernie & Co. / NuTSR are not allies:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/tsr-is-coming-back-or-it-is-back/
Just on page one in that thread - it is obvious for anyone with eyes to see that NuTSR was going to be a train wreck from the start.
Pundits instinct was right - it was just a nostalgia money grab.
Even Mistwell's post is right on point here; these guys don't know whether they are coming or going...
That this incident might serve to wake a few people up - fine.
But NuTSR is a compost pile, not Rorke's Drift.
The wokeoso's are playing a variant of one of the left's favorite games: "Look at the Crazy X..."
Insert 'christian' or 'consrvative' or in this case 'Grognard gamer' in place of X.
They love, love, love, to find a crazy outlier to gin up an outrage storm against; to then conflate them with the rest of everyone else that the can say is adjacent to them that they don't like.
So they found a semi functional adult sperg to beat up on, which because of his last name they are trying to drag down people they don't like with him.
Aside from mocking them a bit and pointing out their tactics it's best to not feed the outrage machine at this point.
I will say that the way that this was jumped on so hard shows signs that the SJW cognoscenti seemed to feel very threatened by the potential resurgence of the old brand for some reason...
It was obvious to anyone that NuTSR was going nowhere. Total flash in the pan.
But the idea of a TSR resurgence?? They didn't like that At All.
Straight to total curb-stomp mode...
I don't think it is fear of resurgence. I think it is fear of their
allies.
They have reached the 'eating their own' stage and some of them know it. Anything that can turn the mob outward buys them more time before they get tossed in the cart.
Quote from: Mistwell on July 07, 2021, 01:20:51 PM
TSR 3.0 is now the Schrodingers TSR. They both the literal old TSR and not the old TSR "in any way."
First they claimed they were the TSR which started Gencon (though Gencon was started 5 years before the original TSR):
(https://i.ibb.co/wQs9jdZ/screen-shot-2021-07-07-at-11-03-23-am-png.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/cFNdqD0/genconban.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/ncMgvCn/created-png.png)
And then they claim they are not the old TSR "in any way."
(https://i.ibb.co/rQT6q0r/screen-shot-2021-07-07-at-10-53-39-am-png.png)
I'll trust Sandy Petersen over Fredo Gygax any day.
And now the TSR_games Twitter account is gone. Like Keyser Soze and the TSR Games new PR guy "Michael."
Quote from: Mistwell on July 07, 2021, 03:47:07 PM
And now the TSR_games Twitter account is gone. Like Keyser Soze and the TSR Games new PR guy "Michael."
If they droped out of twatter altogether that's the smartest decision I have seen them do.
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 07, 2021, 03:35:55 PMI'll trust Sandy Petersen over Fredo Gygax any day.
A user who goes by the handle of Gradine over at another board said, "RPG Pundit and his crew are known quantities at this point, and Jim chose to appear on their podcast."
Pundit, do you have a podcast, and do you have a crew, and has you or your crew had Jim Ward appear on your podcast? News to me if that happened.
Quote from: Mistwell on July 07, 2021, 04:33:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 07, 2021, 03:35:55 PMI'll trust Sandy Petersen over Fredo Gygax any day.
A user who goes by the handle of Gradine over at another board said, "RPG Pundit and his crew are known quantities at this point, and Jim chose to appear on their podcast."
Pundit, do you have a podcast, and do you have a crew, and has you or your crew had Jim Ward appear on your podcast? News to me if that happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqY7WUWvg9Q&t=3s
Quote from: dkabq on July 07, 2021, 04:36:43 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on July 07, 2021, 04:33:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 07, 2021, 03:35:55 PMI'll trust Sandy Petersen over Fredo Gygax any day.
A user who goes by the handle of Gradine over at another board said, "RPG Pundit and his crew are known quantities at this point, and Jim chose to appear on their podcast."
Pundit, do you have a podcast, and do you have a crew, and has you or your crew had Jim Ward appear on your podcast? News to me if that happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqY7WUWvg9Q&t=3s
Ah OK thank you. Here I was looking for a podcast. Generally a video livestream isn't called a podcast. I sure don't think of the other members of that livestream as "RPG Pundits crew" either.
TSR 3.0 has now rebranded its website, misspelling it's own name in the process (I guess the email address is wunderfilled.com?)
(https://i.ibb.co/my7LkJ7/screen-shot-2021-07-07-at-8-31-55-pm-png.png)
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 07, 2021, 01:59:42 PM
I'm just waiting for them to put out a game. It seems like something that a gaming company should do.
Yep. All this drama just makes me want to tune out. It's not even interesting drama anymore.
Quote from: Mistwell on July 07, 2021, 04:50:52 PM
TSR 3.0 has now rebranded its website, misspelling it's own name in the process (I guess the email address is wunderfilled.com?)
(https://i.ibb.co/my7LkJ7/screen-shot-2021-07-07-at-8-31-55-pm-png.png)
LOL
and the FB page for TSR games is also gone
Is it supposed to be "Wonder-Filled" as in filled with wonder, or is it "wonder-filed" as in "Gee, I wonder who filed that cease-and-desist order"?
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 07, 2021, 06:12:47 PM
Is it supposed to be "Wonder-Filled" as in filled with wonder, or is it "wonder-filed" as in "Gee, I wonder who filed that cease-and-desist order"?
Based on the acronym (WFD), I assume it's Wonder File D.
It's about a vampire accountant who goes down a rabbit hole.
Someone elsewhere pointed out the company was an LLC, and now is calling themselves Incorporated. Which...violates corporations laws in all 50 states. It's a minor thing really, but another weird thing.
Quote from: Mistwell on July 07, 2021, 04:33:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 07, 2021, 03:35:55 PMI'll trust Sandy Petersen over Fredo Gygax any day.
A user who goes by the handle of Gradine over at another board said, "RPG Pundit and his crew are known quantities at this point, and Jim chose to appear on their podcast."
Pundit, do you have a podcast, and do you have a crew, and has you or your crew had Jim Ward appear on your podcast? News to me if that happened.
They're referring to Inappropriate Characters; the talk show I do with Venger Satanis and Jobe Bittman.
We interviewed Jim Ward here:
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 07, 2021, 06:12:47 PM
Is it supposed to be "Wonder-Filled" as in filled with wonder, or is it "wonder-filed" as in "Gee, I wonder who filed that cease-and-desist order"?
Or filed the serial numbers off of something else so no one can tell where it came from.
Quote from: Pat on July 07, 2021, 06:25:55 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 07, 2021, 06:12:47 PM
Is it supposed to be "Wonder-Filled" as in filled with wonder, or is it "wonder-filed" as in "Gee, I wonder who filed that cease-and-desist order"?
Based on the acronym (WFD), I assume it's Wonder File D.
It's about a vampire accountant who goes down a rabbit hole.
It's about a machinist who deburs workpieces and then (https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.makeagif.com%2Fmedia%2F11-30-2015%2FuRVK1h.gif&f=1&nofb=1)spins around until she is suddenly wearing a heroic swimsuit.