Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2021, 08:41:32 AMWhen did he say that?

I'm not quoting Ernie verbatim, I'm assuming that his deliberately dismissive comment regarding gender identity, and his follow-up about "Christian values" seem to imply that. This is ever the more impressive because his partner in the interview did not bring the topic up, as best I remember; Ernie did. - Or, how do you read it? Doesn't seem to me Ernie is quoting his Christian upbringing to say "love thy neighbor", and "turn the other cheek".

Unironically, and skipping any jokes how Ernie looks like the kind of DJ you find at parties where people *do* like to turn cheeks, and stuff: Ernie himself, without any need, decided to play with fire. And, predictably enough, he got burned, and might well lose his entire project/company/whatever over it. Nobody's a dick for pointing that out; he's a freaking idiot for letting that happen.

Again, simple question: This new TSR is supposed to have been around for perhaps a year, already. IPs have been registered, many forms have been filed, many meetings and talks have been held. The "Giantlands" project seems to be at post-production levels. Who are the people who enabled Ernie to expose himself like this? - Because those are the fuckers who the hobby needs to hold accountable.

Frank Mentzer famously had a guy who was supposed to act as his "internet and social media" person. How did this person let Frank do what he did?

The same goes for Ernie: How come he gets to do that interview in the first place?

Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 08:58:16 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2021, 08:41:32 AMWhen did he say that?

I'm not quoting Ernie verbatim, I'm assuming that his deliberately dismissive comment regarding gender identity, and his follow-up about "Christian values" seem to imply that. This is ever the more impressive because his partner in the interview did not bring the topic up, as best I remember; Ernie did. - Or, how do you read it? Doesn't seem to me Ernie is quoting his Christian upbringing to say "love thy neighbor", and "turn the other cheek".

Unironically, and skipping any jokes how Ernie looks like the kind of DJ you find at parties where people *do* like to turn cheeks, and stuff: Ernie himself, without any need, decided to play with fire. And, predictably enough, he got burned, and might well lose his entire project/company/whatever over it. Nobody's a dick for pointing that out; he's a freaking idiot for letting that happen.

Again, simple question: This new TSR is supposed to have been around for perhaps a year, already. The "Giantlands" project seems to be entering post-production. Who are the people who enabled Ernie to expose himself like this? - Because those are the fuckers who the hobby needs to hold accountable.

Ok, but for the record it took Ratman five syllables and a question mark to expose the fact that, no, Ernie did not say that gay people "kinda" suck. Accusing and implying is how we got here in the first place, where I guess it is acceptable to lose your company and your already crappy reputation in less than a second.

Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 08:58:16 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2021, 08:41:32 AMWhen did he say that?

I'm not quoting Ernie verbatim, I'm assuming that his deliberately dismissive comment regarding gender identity, and his follow-up about "Christian values" seem to imply that. This is ever the more impressive because his partner in the interview did not bring the topic up, as best I remember; Ernie did. - Or, how do you read it? Doesn't seem to me Ernie is quoting his Christian upbringing to say "love thy neighbor", and "turn the other cheek".

Unironically, and skipping any jokes how Ernie looks like the kind of DJ you find at parties where people *do* like to turn cheeks, and stuff: Ernie himself, without any need, decided to play with fire. And, predictably enough, he got burned, and might well lose his entire project/company/whatever over it. Nobody's a dick for pointing that out; he's a freaking idiot for letting that happen.

Again, simple question: This new TSR is supposed to have been around for perhaps a year, already. IPs have been registered, many forms have been filed, many meetings and talks have been held. The "Giantlands" project seems to be at post-production levels. Who are the people who enabled Ernie to expose himself like this? - Because those are the fuckers who the hobby needs to hold accountable.

Frank Mentzer famously had a guy who was supposed to act as his "internet and social media" person. How did this person let Frank do what he did?

The same goes for Ernie: How come he gets to do that interview in the first place?

  I will sum up, you just made it up. 

Quote from: FingerRod on June 29, 2021, 09:10:33 AMOk, but for the record it took Ratman five syllables and a question mark to expose the fact that, no, Ernie did not say that gay people "kinda" suck. Accusing and implying is how we got here in the first place, where I guess it is acceptable to lose your company and your already crappy reputation in less than a second.

I was still editing my post when you replied, sorry. Mind you, I harbor Gygax no ill will. I would very much like for those operations to become less of a shitfest, though, and his is definitely not the way to do it.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:12:30 AMI will sum up, you just made it up.

No, U maed it upp! - What is this? "Sea-lioning"?

This is what Ernie said, verbatim, that got everybody quacking - in case you fancy a reminder:

QuoteThere's a ton of artists and game designers and people that play..... and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity

Within the borders of civility, this is perhaps the single most stupid and unprofessional thing he could have said. Now, I'm happy to argue whether this is 60% stupid or 70% stupid, but we should not argue that it's "hella" stupid. He has no opinion there, he's not a martyr, he's being a dumbass. - And his follow-up tweet, about the supposed "Christian values": Dear God, this guy has not one friend left in the world who tells him to shut up when it would be better for him. "No gay jokes, Ernie!" - "What?" - "NO GAY JOKES, ERNIE!!!" - "Ok." ...Aaaand, problem solved.

  You made it up.  You said yourself, assume, imply, etc.  Its ok maybe your super secret decoder ring where ernie is implying there might be some gamers out there who do not give two shits about gender identity means "gay people kind of suck" may tell you that, but the black and white facts are, you made it up that he said what you say he said.  It's okay, I am sure you bend what ever you read or hear to justify all sorts of things.

 I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words.  I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians  do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant. 

   It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....." 

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 12:44:13 AM

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 28, 2021, 10:01:34 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 28, 2021, 04:07:37 AM
I think it's probably accurate to say that Ernie alienated 75% of the RPG "INDUSTRY".

But the "industry" is not the hobby.

Right. Recently Ethan Van Sciver was attacked by Scott Kurtz about endorsing his own product. Kurtz intimated that EVS couldn't get a fellow industry creator to endorse his product (that's not what happened at all). They totally miss the point that he doesn't want to be a part of "their" industry. They've hijacked it, they can have it and watch it slowly burn to the ground as these locusts move on to their next target.

I had fuck all to do with the Ernie interview, and yet on twitter at least a couple of guys invoked my name, and while doing it claimed that my "products are unimportant" or that I've "never produced anything of value".  This while gaming is my full-time job and has bought me a house, while the assholes claiming this sell little booklets on itch.io that probably don't earn them enough to cover their aromatherapy-candle budget.

These cunts pretend to be "industry pros" of an industry where no one but WoTC makes any money of note. And they think that because they blocked me on twitter, that's somehow 'stopped' me. Meanwhile I have a bigger fanbase and more successful products than all of them put together.

Coffee on my keyboard...thanks

Sounds like Ernie tipped his hand and showed that he is republican. All the rage/frenzy with long arguments is to just dance around the fact that being republican is not considered OK anymore.

Only hardcore enthusiast buy not-D&D RPG books or even talk about them. It's no wonder that buzz around the hobby is full of extremist voices. Also funny to me is that OSR developers actually make money via "The Art of Money Getting; Or, Golden Rules for Making Money by P. T. Barnum" - spend less than you make. All these socialist/communist understand that labor is exploitation yet didn't realize that if you own as many layers as possible in your RPG business that you make more money. While RPGs don't really make money, if you are a capitalist in the not-industry, you may make enough money to support yourself.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 27, 2021, 09:14:34 PM
Tim Kask:

"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.

But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry. Probably more than that, I don't believe that there's a quarter of the gaming industry that still are the neanderthals that he would make us out to be.

That's another thing. This whole thing has brought the OSR (the old school revival) into serious disrepute. Now there are some little Karens going on some of the social media and painting with the same brush all of us that were there back then based on the stupid ass sh*t that Ernie just said. No. We weren't all like that. And we aren't all like that now. He's a troll, a troglodyte, a neanderthal, if he really means that. It's a foolish person that doesn't wet his finger once in a while and feel the wind shift.

Now there've been claims in a couple of posts, one of which is by Ernie, about how the stalwarts, the old TSR are flocking to the banner. Bullsh*t....

... There is no one of the creative side of TSR from the early days involved with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum. No one. Not one creative person. No matter who might be claiming what, they simply do not have the credentials. Being named DiMaggio does not mean you can hit a lot of home runs. Or that you even hit any home runs ....

... Just because you say you're TSR doesn't mean you are."

I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here.  You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types.  Ernie has to have known his statements would do that.  TSR and Ernie's behavior since then has not helped.

Aaron raises some very good arguments as well against defending Ernie and TSR simply on the basis of Tribe.  tl;dr Ernie and TSR are handing the nattering, SJW Karens of the world ammunition to smear the entire OSR while producing nothing of value themselves.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:33:13 AM
  You made it up.  You said yourself, assume, imply, etc.  Its ok maybe your super secret decoder ring where ernie is implying there might be some gamers out there who do not give two shits about gender identity means "gay people kind of suck" may tell you that, but the black and white facts are, you made it up that he said what you say he said.  It's okay, I am sure you bend what ever you read or hear to justify all sorts of things.

It's a scientifically proven fact that wokeness imparts mind-reading abilities and you can thus determine someone's inner secret thoughts.

This is another case of a manufactured distraction by elements in the gaming industry. WOTC and Gencon (adkinson) have every reason to keep people on the defensive, and to periodically get competitors banned / cancelled

Now some people say "the new TSR doesn't even have products, they are a joke, no threat to WOTC"! Which is true, but Ernie isn't the only guy who has been cancelled. We have:

Frank Mentzer: cancelled because of some remarks he made to some nobody chick on social media. He was involved with Eldritch Enterprises and a few other endeavors at the time
Bill Webb: of Frog God Games, which caters to the OSR crowd (and others), who was also cancelled for some remarks he made to a woman
Zack Smith: an Ennie award winning artist and designer who found success with LotFP and was a rising name in the industry. Also cancelled

we don't see WOTC people getting cancelled.

And what about WOTC? They are owned by Hasbro, a company that has its manufacturing and publishing base in China, a country that throws Muslims into concentration camps, gays into reeducation centers, and runs over protesters with tanks. Hasrbo has been using child labor and sweat shops in China for a long time

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/07/nightmare-at-chinese-factories-making-hasbro-and-disney-toys.html

WOTC and others engage in "rainbow washing" oftheir brand. This is all about the money, ain't a damn thing funny. Better to keep the SJWs combing through social media accounts of competitors in the US, or those people might start taking a closer look at WOTC's business practices

Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 27, 2021, 09:14:34 PM
Tim Kask:

"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.

But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry. Probably more than that, I don't believe that there's a quarter of the gaming industry that still are the neanderthals that he would make us out to be.

That's another thing. This whole thing has brought the OSR (the old school revival) into serious disrepute. Now there are some little Karens going on some of the social media and painting with the same brush all of us that were there back then based on the stupid ass sh*t that Ernie just said. No. We weren't all like that. And we aren't all like that now. He's a troll, a troglodyte, a neanderthal, if he really means that. It's a foolish person that doesn't wet his finger once in a while and feel the wind shift.

Now there've been claims in a couple of posts, one of which is by Ernie, about how the stalwarts, the old TSR are flocking to the banner. Bullsh*t....

... There is no one of the creative side of TSR from the early days involved with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum. No one. Not one creative person. No matter who might be claiming what, they simply do not have the credentials. Being named DiMaggio does not mean you can hit a lot of home runs. Or that you even hit any home runs ....

... Just because you say you're TSR doesn't mean you are."

I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here.  You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types.  Ernie has to have known his statements would do that.  TSR and Ernie's behavior since then has not helped.

Aaron raises some very good arguments as well against defending Ernie and TSR simply on the basis of Tribe.  tl;dr Ernie and TSR are handing the nattering, SJW Karens of the world ammunition to smear the entire OSR while producing nothing of value themselves.

  No, you better bend the knee.  I get what you say, and can agree.  It does not fully comport with reality though, you can most definitely antagonize a section of fans (IMO antagonizing ANY fans is a losing proposition) so long as you antagonize the RIGHT fans, the Mx community leader super villains will not cancel you. 

Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 27, 2021, 09:14:34 PM
Tim Kask:

"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.

But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry. Probably more than that, I don't believe that there's a quarter of the gaming industry that still are the neanderthals that he would make us out to be.

That's another thing. This whole thing has brought the OSR (the old school revival) into serious disrepute. Now there are some little Karens going on some of the social media and painting with the same brush all of us that were there back then based on the stupid ass sh*t that Ernie just said. No. We weren't all like that. And we aren't all like that now. He's a troll, a troglodyte, a neanderthal, if he really means that. It's a foolish person that doesn't wet his finger once in a while and feel the wind shift.

Now there've been claims in a couple of posts, one of which is by Ernie, about how the stalwarts, the old TSR are flocking to the banner. Bullsh*t....

... There is no one of the creative side of TSR from the early days involved with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum. No one. Not one creative person. No matter who might be claiming what, they simply do not have the credentials. Being named DiMaggio does not mean you can hit a lot of home runs. Or that you even hit any home runs ....

... Just because you say you're TSR doesn't mean you are."

I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here.  You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types.

Fuck 'em. They dig into people's pasts to find transgressions, and react to, in their own words, "micro-agressions".  Sooner or later, everyone antagonizes the SJW types. Even and especially their own.

QuoteErnie has to have known his statements would do that.  TSR and Ernie's behavior since then has not helped.

Aaron raises some very good arguments as well against defending Ernie and TSR simply on the basis of Tribe.  tl;dr Ernie and TSR are handing the nattering, SJW Karens of the world ammunition to smear the entire OSR while producing nothing of value themselves.

The less power we give SJW Karens, the better. Let them rant on twitter until they find a new chew toy to play with.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:42:38 AM
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words.  I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians  do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant. 

   It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."

Come on, here. Nuance and context do, in fact, exist. You yourself cite Jordan Peterson, who brought nuance back, so to speak. Ernie, however, didn't try nuance, here: He tried to make a bad joke and it backfired, and he did not have any fucking clue how to handle it. He's hardly "Jordan Peterson"-ing anybody, and he's certainly not being "cryptic".

...And that's why I'm saying - and even if you disagree with me on the nuances concerning this specific example, I hope you can agree with me on that - that these old-timers need more protection by the community: Year by year, one of them comes out with a surely well-meant and even heartwarming attempt at a project that, if it actually held what it promised, would be a joy to behold. And, year by year, those projects get nothing short of eviscerated because "grandpa liketh to talk too much".

As Melan pointed out earlier, Choppy the Titless a person that's extremely sensitive about their gender identity is being the MC at GenCon. You want to have a professional relationship with that person, skip jokes that could offend them. They might overreact. - You know, just shut the fuck up about anything not related to your project. Stay, on message, don't talk past projects, don't talk future projects. Filibuster the interview by reading the entire fucking business plan if you have to. Just make the sale. - But there, you get by being prepared. Ernie clearly wasn't prepared. Why wasn't he prepared? He's participating in a promotional event, not in a private conversation. Why does it seem like does have nothing to promote there? That's a mistake, not an error, to quote a certain blue-skinned alien. And mistakes, you have to correct, or others will correct them for you.

Quote from: Rafael on June 29, 2021, 10:38:28 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2021, 09:42:38 AM
I should also say, I am not saying what he said is not dumb, especially given current day and Fatwa level reactions to words.  I am saying you can leave it at that, rather than extrapolating much more meaning from cryptic references to Christianity (and then attempting to parse "love thy neighbor" with homosexuality is an abomination which are both in the bible, so who knows wtf christians  do with it) to derive you telling everyone what he really, really meant. 

   It makes you come off as dishonest, and sounding like the lady interviewing Jordan Petersen CONSTANTLY saying, "so what you REALLY mean is....."

Come on, here. Nuance and context do, in fact, exist. You yourself cite Jordan Peterson, who brought nuance back, so to speak. Ernie, however, didn't try nuance, here: He tried to make a bad joke and it backfired, and he did not have any fucking clue how to handle it. He's hardly "Jordan Peterson"-ing anybody, and he's certainly not being "cryptic".

...And that's why I'm saying - and even if you disagree with me on the nuances concerning this specific example, I hope you can agree with me on that - that these old-timers need more protection by the community: Year by year, one of them comes out with a surely well-meant and even heartwarming attempt at a project that, if it actually held what it promised, would be a joy to behold. And, year by year, those projects get nothing short of eviscerated because "grandpa liketh to talk too much".

As Melan pointed out earlier, Choppy the Titless a person that's extremely sensitive about their gender identity is being the MC at GenCon. You want to have a professional relationship with that person, skip jokes that could offend them. They might overreact. - You know, just shut the fuck up about anything not related to your project. Stay, on message, don't talk past projects, don't talk future projects. Filibuster the interview by reading the entire fucking business plan if you have to. Just make the sale. - But there, you get by being prepared. Ernie clearly wasn't prepared. Why wasn't he prepared? He's participating in a promotional event, not in a private conversation. Why does it seem like does have nothing to promote there? That's a mistake, not an error, to quote a certain blue-skinned alien. And mistakes, you have to correct, or others will correct them for you.

Ernie can stop talking about his opinion on gender identity when these freaks stop endlessly publicly pushing their mental deficiencies on the rest of us.  You want to hang out with Buffalo Bill fine you're allowed to.  The rest of us are tired of hearing about it and are starting to make our voices heard.