Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 08:19:25 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
Why should there be? Regular gamers don't want "conservative games", they want GAMES THAT AREN'T POLITICAL INDOCTRINATION.  And in that sense the plethora of OSR games are doing very well, my own products included.

You advocated deliberately antagonizing SJWs -- as I have bolded above. That sounds different than just releasing apolitical games.

An apolitical game IS antagonistic to SJWs... remember one of their creeds; "Silence Is Violence!"

If you are not bowing and scraping in obeisance to the current SJW idol then you are an enemy. To them being apolitical IS political.

Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 08:19:25 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM

Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here.  You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types

Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly  not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.

The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.

I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.

Why should there be? Regular gamers don't want "conservative games", they want GAMES THAT AREN'T POLITICAL INDOCTRINATION.  And in that sense the plethora of OSR games are doing very well, my own products included.

You advocated deliberately antagonizing SJWs -- as I have bolded above. That sounds different than just releasing apolitical games. As for how well products are doing: the main numbers I have are from Kickstarter. The top OSR Kickstarters in recent times include:

Old School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy : $291k
Worlds Without Number : $223k

The more explicitly liberal RPG releases include

Thirsty Sword Lesbians : $298k
Coyote and Crow : $1,073k

These are slightly ahead of the OSR releases, and at least in the range of top other recent non-OSR releases, like:

Grim Hollow: The Monster Grimoire : $1,348k
Grim Hollow: The Players Guide : $741k
More Magic Items for 5E : $663k
Twilight: 2000 : $651k
Creatures: Complete Monster Compendium for 5E : $531k

It's meaningless. Almost no one will ever actually play sword lesbians or Coyote & Crow, even if they ever do deliver and they aren't just leftist scams. People put money there in order to brag about it on Twitter for virtue signals.  There aren't any Thirsty Sword Lesbian conventions.

The OSR is actually played.

Quote from: Shasarak on June 29, 2021, 04:50:22 PMEven Gay people understand the concept of gender identity.

You are literally the worst person ever.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

Quote from: mightybrain on June 29, 2021, 07:09:13 PM

Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 10:25:40 AMwe don't see WOTC people getting cancelled.

I seem to remember Mike Mearls, Chris Perkins, Satine Phoenix, and Chris Crawford all being on the receiving end of various defamatory statements over social media.

They blend in so well that whatever they did gets forgiven or forgotten. Mearls especially is good at blending into the woke mob.

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

Exactly!

Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 08:19:25 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 29, 2021, 03:52:42 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 29, 2021, 02:19:55 PM

Quote from: Torque2100 on June 29, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
I think Tim Kask is pretty on the money here.  You don't have to bend the knee but there's something to be said for not deliberately antagonizing the SJW types

Why not? The SJWS are NEVER EVER going to buy a gaming product. At least not for gaming. And certainly  not from anyone who isn't one of their fellow psychopaths.

The very best thing that could happen would be if EVERY SINGLE REGULAR GAMER and regular game designer were to openly defy them. Their power over the hobby would be broken in a day. Same could be said of every other aspect of society.

I absolutely support having conservative gaming products that openly declare their opposition. There should be a variety of gaming products. Thus far, it seems they haven't had success comparable to explicitly liberal-themed gaming products like Thirsty Sword Lesbians or Coyote & Crow. But that's not a reason not to try.

Why should there be? Regular gamers don't want "conservative games", they want GAMES THAT AREN'T POLITICAL INDOCTRINATION.  And in that sense the plethora of OSR games are doing very well, my own products included.

You advocated deliberately antagonizing SJWs -- as I have bolded above. That sounds different than just releasing apolitical games. As for how well products are doing: the main numbers I have are from Kickstarter. The top OSR Kickstarters in recent times include:

Old School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy : $291k
Worlds Without Number : $223k

The more explicitly liberal RPG releases include

Thirsty Sword Lesbians : $298k
Coyote and Crow : $1,073k

These are slightly ahead of the OSR releases, and at least in the range of top other recent non-OSR releases, like:

Grim Hollow: The Monster Grimoire : $1,348k
Grim Hollow: The Players Guide : $741k
More Magic Items for 5E : $663k
Twilight: 2000 : $651k
Creatures: Complete Monster Compendium for 5E : $531k

   So...Overtly leftists games are doing better on an overtly leftist funding platform?  Interesting.

Quote from: Jaeger on June 29, 2021, 09:15:50 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2021, 08:31:32 PM
I would not consider Kickstarter an indicator of anything other than the ability to gather money from a bunch of people into a pile. Even Kickstarters I like.

Aside from the large amount of indulgence buying happening; There is a big difference between raising a ton of money on kickstarter and having real people still playing your game 5 years later...

I still have yet to play a game of 7th Sea 2nd edition.

Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 09:56:13 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 29, 2021, 09:27:36 PM

Quote from: Silas1066 on June 29, 2021, 10:25:40 AM

we don't see WOTC people getting cancelled.

Yes, we do. Mike Mearls.

s.

I don't remember any controversies involving Mike Mearls, or attempts to cancel him

say what?

Wow that's a big one to have missed. Pundit was on about it for month

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

Exactly!

Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?

Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PM

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

Exactly!

Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?

Well, instead of trolling, you could explain it to them politely. Who knows what could happen once they understand the conversation. They might even agree with you.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PM

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

Exactly!

Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?

Did they steal the IP? Because that is what you claimed. From what I've read WOTC let the trademark lapse. Filing for a trademark when someone let it laps is not theft.  If that's incorrect, then share, because that information wasn't in your post, unless I'm missing something.  Its possible I did miss it, I'm on painkillers and not exactly 100% on at this point.

If the lapse is not what you are talking about it, then explain further. Show us what was stolen and how. From what I saw you just made the accusation and just let it hang there.

Being called a low information gamer by the likes of you, I'll take that as a compliment.  Do you think calling people names like Chad and low information gamer adds anything to the conversation?  I've found you to be very disingenuous in past posts, so I'm going to go ahead and guess you already know that it doesn't.

Quote from: jeff37923 on June 30, 2021, 02:50:27 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PM

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

Exactly!

Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?

Well, instead of trolling, you could explain it to them politely. Who knows what could happen once they understand the conversation. They might even agree with you.

It was already explained. In this thread. By Pundit even, in addition to others. It's not trolling to be frustrated that people are commenting on a topic they have not actually read, right?

But sure. In summary:

Jayson Elliot, who originally launched Gygax Magazine in 2012, and now publishes Top Secret, had the TSR name. He acquired it legitimately in 2011, and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. (and Luke) was involved at the time so he fully understood that trademark acquisition.

So are we clear, to begin with, that this is not a WOTC/Hasbro issue? That's not who had the TSR trademark. They had lost it over a decade ago.

Jeff R. Leason and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. then took advantage of an accidental brief lapse in trademark renewal (apparently they took too long in filing some paperwork) to snipe the mark from Jayson Elliot. You know, rather than calling his friend and saying, "whoops you're about to miss a deadline you might want to fix that" he instead jumped on it and claimed rights to it himself. Even though, again, he had been involved in acquiring the rights originally for Jayson Elliot (and perhaps that's why Ernest knew of the renewal date and perhaps why Elliot didn't get the postcard from the PTO office, but that is speculation).

Ernest then, in a grandiose manner, claimed he was being magnanimous and licensing the name back to Jayson Elliot for $10 a year (under a license he could revoke at any time I believe). And claimed Elliot had agreed, though he had not they were just negotiating.

Jayson Elliot then told Ernest to go F himself, and made it clear he had never agreed. Or to be specific, ""Just one clarification, we never paid any money to them or acknowledged their claim to the trademark. They made an offer which we considered very recently, and chose to reject," Elliot said."

So yeah, you can quibble with the characterization that Ernest and Leason stole the IP from Elliot. It's more like Elliot accidentally dropped his wallet on the ground and Ernest and Leason saw it happen, picked it up, and then tried to sell it back to him as long as they could also use his wallet at any time and might at some point just demand he give them the wallet.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 03:52:10 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on June 30, 2021, 02:50:27 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 30, 2021, 01:24:13 PM

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

It's not WOTC/Hasbro they swiped it from, Chad. It looks like you don't even know the basic facts we're discussing?

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on June 30, 2021, 09:30:34 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 30, 2021, 04:28:36 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 28, 2021, 10:22:10 AMAnd then of course there is the whole, "we think we're clever for stealing the intellectual property of others and are we not gracious for licensing it back to someone who accidentally missed a filing deadline?"

Stealing? Really?

WOTC and/or Hasbro lets IPs slip through their idiot grasp about every year. And thats a good thing as those IPs were not theirs to begin with. But they will shutter them forever just to prevent anyone else using them.

Exactly!

Oh, two of you guys have not even gotten a basic grasp of what's being discussed. Lovely. Low information gamers?

Well, instead of trolling, you could explain it to them politely. Who knows what could happen once they understand the conversation. They might even agree with you.

It was already explained. In this thread. By Pundit even, in addition to others. It's not trolling to be frustrated that people are commenting on a topic they have not actually read, right?

But sure. In summary:

Jayson Elliot, who originally launched Gygax Magazine in 2012, and now publishes Top Secret, had the TSR name. He acquired it legitimately in 2011, and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. (and Luke) was involved at the time so he fully understood that trademark acquisition.

So are we clear, to begin with, that this is not a WOTC/Hasbro issue? That's not who had the TSR trademark. They had lost it over a decade ago.

Jeff R. Leason and Ernest Gary Gygax Jr. then took advantage of an accidental brief lapse in trademark renewal (apparently they took too long in filing some paperwork) to snipe the mark from Jayson Elliot. You know, rather than calling his friend and saying, "whoops you're about to miss a deadline you might want to fix that" he instead jumped on it and claimed rights to it himself. Even though, again, he had been involved in acquiring the rights originally for Jayson Elliot (and perhaps that's why Ernest knew of the renewal date and perhaps why Elliot didn't get the postcard from the PTO office, but that is speculation).

Ernest then, in a grandiose manner, claimed he was being magnanimous and licensing the name back to Jayson Elliot for $10 a year (under a license he could revoke at any time I believe). And claimed Elliot had agreed, though he had not they were just negotiating.

Jayson Elliot then told Ernest to go F himself, and made it clear he had never agreed. Or to be specific, ""Just one clarification, we never paid any money to them or acknowledged their claim to the trademark. They made an offer which we considered very recently, and chose to reject," Elliot said."

So yeah, you can quibble with the characterization that Ernest and Leason stole the IP from Elliot. It's more like Elliot accidentally dropped his wallet on the ground and Ernest and Leason saw it happen, picked it up, and then tried to sell it back to him as long as they could also use his wallet at any time and might at some point just demand he give them the wallet.

So, they didn't steal it. They legally acquired it. You admit it, good. (and by the way, most of the information you included above, was no where to be found in this thread)

Quote from: KingCheops on June 30, 2021, 10:21:43 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on June 29, 2021, 09:15:50 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2021, 08:31:32 PM
I would not consider Kickstarter an indicator of anything other than the ability to gather money from a bunch of people into a pile. Even Kickstarters I like.

Aside from the large amount of indulgence buying happening; There is a big difference between raising a ton of money on kickstarter and having real people still playing your game 5 years later...

I still have yet to play a game of 7th Sea 2nd edition.

We play over Discord Saturday evenings.  Come play with us!