T&T (any edition, from what I've seen) is pretty crazy from a "systematic" point of view. It seems that Ken's style as a GM has always been pretty seat of the pants, so things that might seem 'broken' from some perspectives are simply ignored as convenient.
The wild mix of almost Chesslike determinism sometimes, big stakes on extremely long odds at other times, and wild swings of fortune from Super Hero to Super Wimp and back, certainly contribute to replay value of the solos.
The kind of balance among PCs that is such a big deal in some quarters today is basically nonexistent. T&T makes old-time D&D look geared to that by comparison!
So, T&T GMs: What's the mojo, the jazz, the art of running the game? Is it even something you can teach?
I really like T&T for a certain gonzo-ish type of fantasy. That said, I used it for a high action Colonial America game riffing off of the Leatherstocking Tales. Those sessions exceeded expectations.
I also found it to be a good fit for use with the Mythic GM Emulator:
http://platonicsolid.blogspot.com/search/label/Tunnels%20and%20Trolls
Not much armor in colonial America of that period, so there's one tricky issue off the table!
I seem to recall a saving roll versus gun fire, which could stave off the Seen=Dead phenomenon of high-DX, high-adds marksmen.
Does "high action" imply a lot of SRs for various feats? How do you set SR levels?
It works very well for me, when I want to play a dungeon crawling game that isn't Cyclopedia D&D, in general I've used it for lots of high adventure fantasy gaming as well.
A few things to learn is "shoot from your hip" if monsters are too tough, or too weak, give the heroes options to change the odds--ways to use the Saving Rolls mechanics to shift the fight, to overcome traps, or cheat the odds.
Don't be afraid to say no to certain races for example, especially if you want a certain feel.
T&T is very much kitchensink fantasy, and sometimes that takes a good plumber to keep it from getting stopped up.
I always play T&T as a dungeoncrawl (no outside wilderness at all) and I basically set the Level of the Saving Throw to the level of the dungeon the players are on.
I am a big T&T fan and usually run it at least once a year at a convention. The theme for this year's PolyCon is "Mirror, Mirror" and I am going to use T&T for Snow White, but the PCs are the Queen's huntsmen who are gonna smack down the Seven Dwarfs, slash Prince Charming into bits and bring back the heart of the wee lass...but hey is that the Axe of Dwarfish Lords that Dopey is swinging around?
I've done not-gonzo with T&T, but it the spirit of the game is definitely more darkly humorous and zany than D&D.
Here's my suggestions for running T&T...
1) MONSTER RATINGS
The Monster Rating (MR) system is fast and easy, but the monsters don't have any flavor in their stats. The GM must devise rules for how the monster does its kewl stuff or handwaive it. Either works.
My personal house rule is the "Trigger 6". When a monster rolls a 6 on a die, he can either do Spite damage to the foe or trigger one of its special abilities. The more 6s, the more special abilities get triggered or the special ability becomes more dangerous. AKA, a MR 30 Giant Spider may have the special abilities of a Venomous Bite and Shoot Webs. Let's say I roll my 4D6 and get two 6s. If my attack hits, then I get the following options:
1 - Do 2 spite damage.
2 - Trigger Venonmous Bite, the victim must make a level 2 CON save or take 2D6 damage to a random Stat...or maybe not a random one.
3 - Trigger Shoot Webs, the victim must make a level 2 DEX save or they are wrapped in webbing (must spend next action trying to get out).
2) AVOID NUMBER CRUNCHING
T&T has the potential for really awesome exciting combat. Unfortunately, it has the option to be really dull where the players just add up numbers and you add up monster numbers and then you play Battle of the Fantasy Accountants! Which is lame.
You avoid this by breaking up melee into sub-combats, one on one combats and making sure that you narrate the combat as much as you can. The GM must take the initiative to make sure all the numbers in combat mean something in the fictional universe of the setting. T&T combat is much more abstract than D&D so it requires more GM flavoring to bring it alive.
Its important to encourage players to try crazy stuff, using the Saving Throw mechanic to do heroic daring-do instead of just "I attack" adding up handfuls of dice.
3) BE READY FOR PC DEATH
With all its gonzo zaniness and humor, T&T is a bloody blender of PC murder. Combat is really crazy dangerous and you can go from healthy to slaughterhouse splatter in a round or two. Make sure that your players understand the combat system up front so they can properly make decisions in gameplay.
But hot damn, T&T is awesome fun!
What I wonder about SRs is: How do you set levels?
The differences in ability scores among characters as they gain levels quickly dwarf the distance between an 89% chance and something miniscule (dropping below 1% after 20 points).
Put your points into Luck at 7th and 8th levels and that's another 30 points! Meanwhile, someone else may have taken a mere 7 points of Dexterity.
That's also a factor in Combat Adds, of course.
This is a game I have to run, but the central mechanic encourges me to develop a social combat system, something like Burning Wheel's Battle of Wits or whatever it's called.
I can easily see summing three of the character's non-physical stats and developing some house rules building of that. (Of course, I have to weapon equivalencies based on various sophistries and rhetorical techniques, much like the weapons and their damages in the combat system.)
I would never run T&T (My math skills are utter shit), but I had a absolute blast the one time I played it. It's apparent "Flaws" (Very little in the way of rules for anything besides combat, Humorous tone and goofy spell names, Weird obsession with long lists of obscure weapons) are revealed as fun assets once you stop reading the rules and actually start playing them.
Never played it, never read it. If I did, and I would, it would be the original, not the later editions.
Eh, its beer & pretzels D&D, as its always been. I cant think of a reason to play it instead of BD&D (or Dragon warriors for that matter), but I've nothing against the game.
Quote from: TristramEvans;651577Eh, I cant think of a reason to play it instead of BD&D (
What if someone ate all of your dice, and you had to the ones found in old boardgames, so d6s?
Quote from: Benoist;651575Never played it, never read it. If I did, and I would, it would be the original, not the later editions.
5th Edition is great. Liz Danforth's elbow grease is extremely evident. Though there are some bits from the later editions that make for handy add-ins.
I'd also like to take a look at T&T Deluxe.
Quote from: TristramEvans;651577I cant think of a reason to play it instead of BD&D (or Dragon warriors for that matter)
Tone and expectations.
Since T&T is beer & pretzels D&D and the focus is gonzo dark humor, it becomes a great system from when you want that exact tone for a particular campaign.
While I would not run LotR with T&T, it was ideal for running my Monsters of Mordor adventure where the creatures of Mordor have to decide what to do now that Sauron is dead. The decision of course was "Revenge on the Hobbitesses!!!"
Quote from: Spinachcat;651608While I would not run LotR with T&T, it was ideal for running my Monsters of Mordor adventure where the creatures of Mordor have to decide what to do now that Sauron is dead. The decision of course was "Revenge on the Hobbitesses!!!"
St. Andre once said that he saw the world of T&T as being like if Marvel in the 70's had done a LotR comic.
That one line pretty much sold me on seeking out the game. Just imagine Kirby's Sauron.
The mention of luck is important. Because it advances at a far higher rate than other stats (think it's 2x level if you take it as your levelling bonus, don't have the book on me) the rest of the stats get neglected - and rightly so. You get most bang for buck taking luck. Eventually you'll get a bunch of hapless half wits who can't handle anything but weak standard weapons or cast much in the way of spells, but who cares when they have a Clusoe like ability to blunder through danger and laugh it off with a shrug. 'What Dragon?" and so on.
Also, unlike D&D I can't see myself playing this for ages, levelling up and going much further beyond the dungeon.
I'm saying this as a fan of the game, by the way. For one shot dungeon blasts where the game doesn't last much beyond 2nd-3rd level, it's a lot of fun, the spell names are silly and characterful, the Monster Rating makes combat fast (and those rolling 6 to activate special attacks are a great idea by the way) and there's a role for every character, no matter how useless.
My were-bear character in a play by post game has 3 Dex (yes, rolled 3 for Dex). He's (at best) average at everything else, incompetent with a sword and near useless at everything else. He's now 2nd level, and he got luckier when he went up a level - it would have been pointless increasing anything else as it'd be ages before any stat got close to giving a bonus.
My Elven Warrior-Wizard (with great stats across the board) also increased her luck when she went up a level. The other characters in the game also increased their luck... see a pattern?
I'd have luck as a separate resource for the character to spend. It's designed like that in a few homebrews I've written. When you're on zero luck, you can't spend any more.
Overall though, the T&T game is fun, just not long lasting.
Its a fun game. Long time since I've played/GM'd it though.
I think of it as being almost a 'fantasy supers' game - although plus dungeons. Despite the elves and dwarves, its really more Sword n' Sorcery than high fantasy, IMHO.
On the OP question: as far as balance goes in the default combat system at least everyone is just producing a slice of the total attack, and having an extra character means the total attack will be much better, even if the new character isn't that strong. If you want, replacement characters can also always be some sort of monster kindred with ridiculous stat multipliers (or 2 guys, or the GM could allow a character that's been through a solo or two, etc.).
Balancing encounters is slightly tricky since combats can be very one-sided (I guess 'spite damage' where 6s give automatic hits can help), though it depends on the party since a TTYF spell or two or missile attacks can help bring down big monsters. Consequently it is also harder for the GM to 'whittle down' PCs the way you would for D&D characters, particularly if they have healing spells.
As far as saving throws go, yep unless the character can think of something clever that'll bring down the SR level, their chance of making a higher-level SR is pretty low. The obvious advice here, I guess, is try to have non-fatal consequences to failed saves like the spear trap does [2 dice + what you failed the roll by, minus armour] damage, instead of *SPLAT*.
It's an emphasis-on-fun system, but I also just don't see it as a long term game; I don't know if I ever actually ran a campaign.
I did pay many of the (many) solo modules made for the system, though, and I still have my well-worn Buffalo Castle in the closet.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;651634St. Andre once said that he saw the world of T&T as being like if Marvel in the 70's had done a LotR comic.
That's an awesome image.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;651687On the OP question: as far as balance goes in the default combat system at least everyone is just producing a slice of the total attack, and having an extra character means the total attack will be much better, even if the new character isn't that strong.
The key for the GM is to try to avoid mosh pits. Break melees up into various 1v1, 2v2, etc as makes sense.
To help make this work better, I give Warriors the ability to "I'll Save You!" (or "Get thee Behind me Wizard!") where they can make a saving throw to take the damage designated for another PC in the same melee.
I think of melee battles as chaotic scrums so people get caught up in the mosh and pushed into duels. PCs who don't want to get separated in the scum can make Luck rolls.
Quote from: APN;651639You get most bang for buck taking luck.
True.
And luck is very important for melee and ranged combat too so its the best way to go. But that's an easy fix if you are finding it abused in your game.
In my games, I don't have stats gain at higher levels get modifiers. So you get +1 to one stat at 1st, +2 to one at 2nd, etc. Keeps the inflation down.
Quote from: APN;651639I'd have luck as a separate resource for the character to spend.
That's a good houserule.
I would play T&T over any edition of D&D for the simple reason that T&T encourages creativity rather than stifling it.
Saving Rolls are a brilliant mechanic for doing almost anything. The 7th edition rules add and change something to IMHO give a better game. Including basing level on Attributes instead of the other way around. Atributes are purchased with experience and when he right attributes cross a threshold the character levels up.
I use it quite often for straight up horror adventures as well as fantasy. I have written a full on mythic Greece sourcebook, including gods, monsters, new equipment, new races and a new class.
Quote from: DavetheLost;651829I use it quite often for straight up horror adventures as well as fantasy. I have written a full on mythic Greece sourcebook, including gods, monsters, new equipment, new races and a new class.
Yes. One of the things that impressed me about T&T is that it rivals B/X D&D in it's ability to be bent very far before it breaks. The system is very easy to modify, houserule, tinker around with, and add new stuff to.
Quote from: Spinachcat;651755In my games, I don't have stats gain at higher levels get modifiers. So you get +1 to one stat at 1st, +2 to one at 2nd, etc. Keeps the inflation down.
Interesting! That would keep things closer to the dice range, and/but make initial attribute rolls more decisive.
Even setting aside IQ and DX prerequisites for spell levels, more spells would be unusable without a team-up to provide ST.
Quote from: DavetheLost;651829The 7th edition rules add and change something to IMHO give a better game. Including basing level on Attributes instead of the other way around. Atributes are purchased with experience and when he right attributes cross a threshold the character levels up.
How does this improve the game?
I don't know how this would work in action, but how about re-rolling one or more stats when you go up a level? If you get a higher stat total, you keep that. TARO applies and it really shakes up characters instead of the steady natural progression (or ultra high luck stat and rubbish everything else as usually happens). With the game not really lending itself to long term (and by that I mean level 10+, I don't know of anyone who stuck with it for the years required to get a character that high. By level 16+ experience requirements are doubling, and well into the millions.) it might be something different to try.
Say, new level, you get to re-roll any stat of your choice one or more times. If you re-roll more than once, you keep the value you roll last, regardless of whether it's higher than the existing stat or lower.
Example:
Clord the Barbarian gets to 4th level. His Strength is 18 and the player devotes 2 re-rolls to his strength, one for luck and one for Body. Luck goes up by 2 points thanks to a nice roll, Body doesn't improve. His strength roll (after a taro) goes up to 24. The player wants more though, and goes for a second check. Arggh! A roll of 8! Clord got greedy, and what the gods give, they can take away! With a flash of lightning and boom of thunder, Clord staggers up on unsteady legs, his once powerful muscles now resembling knots in thread! To the sound of fading laughter he finds he can no longer use his sword of choice, and considers cursing the gods... but thinks better of it. He's already been punished once for his greed. Being punished again for stupidity might see him even worse off ... or dead!
Expanding on this, I realise that after a while you'd be relying on TARO to improve stats. Perhaps you can also sacrifice a stat roll to increase the chances of another stat roll.
Say you get to 2nd Level. You want to improve luck, and use both stat rolls at the same time to increase your luck. Roll 6D6 and pick the best three dice to use. Because you have used 2 or more stat rolls on the same stat (whether used on one roll or through separate rolls) you MUST then keep the stat you roll.
Example:
5th Level, and Clord managed to survive despite his own greed nigh on securing his downfall. This time he has 5 stat rolls to make and uses three at the same time on strength. He needs 9 or more to improve on his current strength of 8. Rolling 9D6 (T&T was always about buckets o dice) he selects the best three, gets TARO and rolls again, adding to the first roll. With a final total of 26, Clord looks up to the heavens and cries with relief, thanking the gods and heading off to the weapon shop to get the best sword he can afford!
With stat rolls made this way advancement is all over the place rather than steady plodding through levels with the usual increase in luck.
Quote from: APN;652032Say, new level, you get to re-roll any stat of your choice one or more times. If you re-roll more than once, you keep the value you roll last, regardless of whether it's higher than the existing stat or lower.
I love this idea! Your example is awesome.
It fits very well in the T&T scheme. In many adventures, we see magical events and items cause reroll of stats or wild changes in stats. Ken sees stats as very fluid.
I think the 2:1 LUCK increases are sort of a legacy of from when all saving rolls were on Luck, whereas in later editions the stats are more equal - you might equally well have to make saves on DEX, CON, etc.
At one stage we ditched the 2:1 Luck rule and instead just made all the stats 1:1. Also tried just dividing points equal to [new level] across the stats, instead of picking one and raising it by a lot.
If I did play T&T again these days I might consider making CON 2:1 though, since its very easy for characters to take lots of damage in T&T from surprise attacks, missile attacks, TTYF or whatever.