Just expressing my surprise that someone hasn't done this yet. I think it was actually a really well-done alteration of the D&D system at the time. I remember playing it fondly.
RPGPundit
I had no idea that they did a mod to the rules. I thought it was just a setting sup.
Was it 1e with some changes or something else. What were the changes?
Quote from: Gib;558349I had no idea that they did a mod to the rules. I thought it was just a setting sup.
Was it 1e with some changes or something else. What were the changes?
Same here. I have the main book floating around somewhere, but as I recall, the majority of the line came out under 2nd Edition rules. I don't think there was anything particularly altered with the AD&D rules, just a few additions like skills and spells; the usual stuff for a campaign setting.
As I recall, the main changes were to make magic more "Swords & Sorcery"... ey.
Specifically while the writeup for Fafhrd gave him Bard and Ranger levels he didn't get the spells those AD&D classes would have.
Actual spellcasters had to choose between "white magic" (cleric spells, basically) or black magic (wizard spells). Casting was very involved, simulated by increasing the Casting Time by one factor: A Casting Time of X number of segments became the same number of rounds. A base casting time of rounds became the same number of 10-minute turns. And so on.
And if you were a black magician you would inevitably become Eeeevil (Grey Mouser doesn't count because he didn't gain enough levels) and you had to roll on a random chart to see how deformed you got. :D
JG
The super-long casting times were the main practical difference. That's essentially a one-line house rule, so it doesn't need an entire supplement.
Now something capturing all the flavour of gaming in Lankhmar and distilling it into smart mechanical ideas, game structures (how do you really run alleyway/rooftop chases?) and GM-friendly, adventure-relevant setting information... that would be something worth a product of its own.
I think Crypts and Things fills that void a bit. It separates white and black magic (which was a rule change for Lanhmar supplements), for example. It also has just a few classes AND a barbarian class.
C&T is probably as close as one would get to a Lanhmar retroclone, but I admit I have not read that book.
Quote from: Melan;558380The super-long casting times were the main practical difference. That's essentially a one-line house rule, so it doesn't need an entire supplement.
Now something capturing all the flavour of gaming in Lankhmar and distilling it into smart mechanical ideas, game structures (how do you really run alleyway/rooftop chases?) and GM-friendly, adventure-relevant setting information... that would be something worth a product of its own.
That would be incredibly useful on its own, divorced from the Lankhmar setting.
Fafherd & The Grey Mouser wrote a guest column for Dragon Magazine where they opined about RPGs a bit. Funny stuff. Leiber & Gygax got along pretty well.
Quote from: Melan;558380Now something capturing all the flavour of gaming in Lankhmar and distilling it into smart mechanical ideas, game structures (how do you really run alleyway/rooftop chases?) and GM-friendly, adventure-relevant setting information... that would be something worth a product of its own.
Oh, it had a city guide, and little details like the Thieves' Guild being a male-only operation (like a lot of Lankhmar), what the main temples were, what the main brothels were... etc.
JG
You guys seem to be remembering a different game from me; I thought there were quite a few more rules-changes. Limited classes and levels, white and black magic, different spells and items, etc.
Maybe there was more than one edition?
RPGPundit
There were Lankhmar supplements for 1e and 2e.
There were some other changes outside the magic system ("white magic" = clerical spells, "black magic" = m-u spells, etc). I'm pretty sure they used a monetary system based on that in the books, and certain classes like the Paladin didn't exist. And no elves and such.
A few posters have already mentioned this stuff. My memory isn't what it used to be, but that's pretty much the extent as I remember it.
Really, the rules changes took up a very small part of the base setting books for either edition.
Quote from: RPGPundit;558891You guys seem to be remembering a different game from me; I thought there were quite a few more rules-changes. Limited classes and levels, white and black magic, different spells and items, etc.
Maybe there was more than one edition?
RPGPundit
TSR released 2 Adventures in Lankhmar sourcebooks, one for 2nd edition AD&D and one for 1st edition.
Here's a quick rpg.net index search for Lankhmar:
http://index.rpg.net/display-search.phtml?firstsearch=1&key=title&match=loose&value=lankhmar
Lankhmar: City of Adventure (http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=1201) was released for AD&D 1E and 2E.
The 1E version is almost a rules free sandbox campaign setting. The rules conversion notes (Chapter 9) are a mere 2.5 pages (88-90).
The 2E version rules changes (Chapter 2) are more, but still only run from pages 24-29.
Although organized differently, I think most of the setting material is the same.
Hm.
Perhaps Pundit is thinking of the Lankhmar game that was released in about '96 or so and not the City of Adventure supplements for either 1E or 2E.
This was sort of a 'basic' 2E tweaked for Lankhmar gaming (with the white and black wizards of the previous supplements, etc.
http://tsrinfo.net/archive/lm/lm-newad.htm
It was okay. Not much to it and horrendous interior art.
I'm pretty sure I was thinking of the first 2e book, not the box set. Though I'm not totally sure.
RPGPundit
As others have stated the major changes were around how spell casters were treated. Non humans as PCs don't exist and humans can multiclass. Oh and Ghouls (humans with translucent flesh) are a PC race.
Quote from: RPGPundit;558891You guys seem to be remembering a different game from me; I thought there were quite a few more rules-changes. Limited classes and levels, white and black magic, different spells and items, etc.
Maybe there was more than one edition?
RPGPundit
I think there were a few different products in this line but I could be wrong. All I remember is having (i think) having somekind of setting/adventure book that I used all the time for city adventure stuff. Frankly I can't even remember what was so great about it specifically but it made a huge impression on me somehow. It may just have been the first time I became aware f the urban adventure.
Quote from: ptingler;558949Here's a quick rpg.net index search for Lankhmar:
http://index.rpg.net/display-search.phtml?firstsearch=1&key=title&match=loose&value=lankhmar
Lankhmar: City of Adventure (http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=1201) was released for AD&D 1E and 2E.
The 1E version is almost a rules free sandbox campaign setting. The rules conversion notes (Chapter 9) are a mere 2.5 pages (88-90).
The 2E version rules changes (Chapter 2) are more, but still only run from pages 24-29.
Although organized differently, I think most of the setting material is the same.
I am pretty sure I had the mid 80s edition. Was it the same cover on both because the cover looks familiar.
I have owned both the 1e and 2e versions; ultimately gave away the latter since it mostly adds bad art and not much interesting stuff. The supplements I have seen (all 2e era) were really bad, written by people who had obviously never read the Leiber stories (Dale "Slade" Henson, I am looking at YOU!).
Here is what you need to run a great Lankhmar:
Lankhmar: City of Adventure (TSR): Basic setting info
Ready Ref Sheets (Judges Guild): Grab-bag of rules and guidelines, some of which are very useful to generate city encounters, and some of which, while Leiber-inspired, are mostly silly (the infamous "Women" table, you can just see Ffahrd and/or the Mouser rolling on it). Alternatively, just grab City State of the Invincible Overlord and use that.
Here is what can help you run a great Lankhmar game:
City Encounters (Mythmere Games): Supplement with a bigass encounter table, something like 600 entries full of exotic oddities. If you read Hungarian, there is a companion supplement (http://fomalhaut.lfg.hu/2011/08/20/varosi-talalkozasok-ii-ejszakai-tablazat/) for nocturnal encounters as well. ;)
Vornheim (LotFP): I bet you could use a significant chunk of this booklet.
Towers of Krshal: For the really odd angle. Review. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=556479)
Quote from: Melan;559140(Dale "Slade" Henson, I am looking at YOU!).
Yeah, his stuff was AWFUL. As was the Nehwon sourcebook.
The Gazetteer-type books detailing the individual city districts were okay, and I wish they'd finished all of them (at least, I don't remember ever seeing the book on the wealthier quarters of the city being published).
I am at a loss as to why someone writing any sort of S&S material would pass the Leiber stories up. They're awesome and mostly pretty short.
One thing I liked about the TSR Lankhmar material was the city geomorph maps that they did. They were neat generic districts that you could arrange by mix and match to produce serviceable city maps. I have used the hell out of those things for urban campaigns over the years. I would live to see someone clone those.
-TGA
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;559184One thing I liked about the TSR Lankhmar material was the city geomorph maps that they did. They were neat generic districts that you could arrange by mix and match to produce serviceable city maps. I have used the hell out of those things for urban campaigns over the years. I would live to see someone clone those.
-TGA
Working on it!
Quote from: StormBringer;559186Working on it!
Sweet! :)
-TGA
This site has some neat generators using geomorphs that were all the craze on the blogs a year or so ago:
http://www.wizardawn.com/rpg/
There's a city generator there. Not bad. Worth poking around for a while, there's some really fun tools there.
Dave's mapper has some good city stuff too. Personally for just walking around i like the numbers thing from Vornheim.
Quote from: KenHR;559189This site has some neat generators using geomorphs that were all the craze on the blogs a year or so ago:
http://www.wizardawn.com/rpg/
There's a city generator there. Not bad. Worth poking around for a while, there's some really fun tools there.
Thanks for the link! Some cool stuff there.
-TGA
Quote from: Gib;559190Personally for just walking around i like the numbers thing from Vornheim.
I have never seen Vornheim. Can you give me a brief description of the system?
-TGA
It's really simple, you basically just draw a number, like a "4" and use it as a street map, when the players come to the end of the street, roll a die and draw another number, maybe at a partial overlap. Once you have a couple down you can't even really tell they were numbers.
OT: All of sudden, I am no longer unemployed. Even stranger, my MS degree actually got me a job.
Quote from: Gib;559197OT: All of sudden, I am no longer unemployed. Even stranger, my MS degree actually got me job.
Congrats on that! Sincerely.
Quote from: Gib;559197It's really simple, you basically just draw a number, like a "4" and use it as a street map, when the players come to the end of the street, roll a die and draw another number, maybe at a partial overlap. Once you have a couple down you can't even really tell they were numbers.
Cool idea. I may have to steal it...
Quote from: Gib;559197OT: All of sudden, I am no longer unemployed. Even stranger, my MS degree actually got me a job.
Congrats!
-TGA
Vornheim would go awesomely well with the Lankhmar setting.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;559428Vornheim would go awesomely well with the Lankhmar setting.
RPGPundit
Undoubtedly.
The 2nd edition box set was pretty damn good. It was kind of a Basic D&D based upon the 2e ruleset, tweaked for swords and sorcery. Characters were limited in level, and stuff like brawling and drinking were important. I suspect many here would have liked it.
Quote from: danbuter;559453The 2nd edition box set was pretty damn good. It was kind of a Basic D&D based upon the 2e ruleset, tweaked for swords and sorcery. Characters were limited in level, and stuff like brawling and drinking were important. I suspect many here would have liked it.
I just broke out my Lankhmar box set and took a closer look. You are right, it looks like a very stripped down version of AD&D 2 ed. Some highlights:
- only four classes: Warriors, White Wizards, Black Wizards, and Rogues. Interestingly, you can dual class.
- no non-human races, although there are human variations (Mingols, Kleshites, Lankhmarts, etc) with some small attribute adjustments.
- class kits for specialization
- non-weapon proficiencies (some by class)
- rules for social class, interestingly apparently based on character level
- simplified combat rules based on 2e
The differences in the magic has already been commented on, but I agree with your assessment danbutter. I was never a fan of 2e AD&D, but ths is a simplified version that I like better. I still probably would se something else, but better in my view.
-TGA
A further aside. You are right that level advancement seems to be limited to 10. However the stats for Fafhrd lists him as a level 18 warrior when "Mature" and The Gray Mouser as level 14 warrior, 7 thief, and 3 black wizard. Make of that what you will...
-TGA
The unwritten rule across all TSR editions of D&D, first exhibited in the 1e Deities and Demigods write up of Lankmarian stuff is that you can never, ever, be the Gray Mouser. Bitch.
The ridiculous stats/powers TSR assigned to fictional characters is responsible for a lot of crap in AD&D. Ffahrd is completely okay as a 6th level Fighter, and I bet you could model the Mouser similarly (maybe not exactly, but close enough).
Also, congrats on that job, Gib! Getting employed in a depression is always an accompishment.
Quote from: Melan;559503The ridiculous stats/powers TSR assigned to fictional characters is responsible for a lot of crap in AD&D. Ffahrd is completely okay as a 6th level Fighter, and I bet you could model the Mouser similarly (maybe not exactly, but close enough).
Also, congrats on that job, Gib! Getting employed in a depression is always an accompishment.
I think that says more about how inherently flawed class/level/hit point systems are, but hey. ;)
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;559514I think that says more about how inherently flawed class/level/hit point systems are, but hey. ;)
I don't think Gib getting a job says anything in particular about class/level systems.
Quote from: StormBringer;559518I don't think Gib getting a job says anything in particular about class/level systems.
So sue me because I kept the extra part of the quote. :p
JG
Quote from: MachFront;558969Hm.
Perhaps Pundit is thinking of the Lankhmar game that was released in about '96 or so and not the City of Adventure supplements for either 1E or 2E.
This was sort of a 'basic' 2E tweaked for Lankhmar gaming (with the white and black wizards of the previous supplements, etc.
http://tsrinfo.net/archive/lm/lm-newad.htm
It was okay. Not much to it and horrendous interior art.
I'd guess that Pundit means this game as all the other releases were not complete games with lots of rules changes (that would warrant a question for a clone).
That box was a single, stand alone game with dice - the AD&D PHB was not needed.
And yes to the horrendous art. I never understood why they didn't go with Mignola art (or art by one of the many Mignola copycats that were popping up around that time). The Epic comic book adaption by Mignola, Chaykin, and Williamson pretty much defined the visuals of Nehwon, and White Wolf had reinforced that by choosing Mignola as the jacket artist for their collected four-volume reprint of the Leiber stories just a year before the Lankhmar game appeared.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Fritz-Leiber-ILL-MET-LANKHMAR-HBDJ-Rare-Book-1995-/00/$(KGrHqUOKm4E3cRTd(gcBN69CfGpJg~~_12.JPG)
A couple of neat things in my Lankhmar collection:
1. Lankhmar board game from the 1970's. The part I like best is the hex-map of Nehwon. (I like hexes; they help me track the progress of a party as they travel)
2. The boxed set for AD&D 2E. As others have commented, this is a slimmed down version of 2E and works pretty well overall.
3. The books. Reading the stories really gets me pumped up to play. If you are trying to decide which book to try, I suggest #2 "Swords Against Death" as it is mostly composed of the stories earliest written by Leiber. I find that Leiber's best stories seem to be his early ones.
That is probably the best. The highlight of it for me is "Bazaar of the Bizarre", perhaps my favorite story of the cycle.
The stories certainly decline in quality toward the end of Leiber's career, and this is most evident in the last two books, which are dominated by the atrocious "Rime Isle" and "The Mouser Goes Below", respectively. But even those have some pretty good short pieces such as "The Curse of the Smalls and the Stars" in the last book.