Quote from: camazotz on June 22, 2021, 12:31:38 PM

Quote from: tenbones on June 22, 2021, 12:25:05 PM

Quote from: camazotz on June 22, 2021, 12:16:51 PM

No, I'm saying LBGTQI etc. doesn't include heteronormativity in its list last I checked.

Yeah. Okay I understood you correctly heh.

The problem is there is this inability to think of themselves as individuals. Sure culture matters. One is influenced by ones culture, but ones culture should not define someone. Thus, these people view themselves as a confederation for one reason: they're not 'heteronormative" and unironically (to them) commit their very own sin of "Othering" those not like their "Movement". The double-irony is none of the constituents of the LGBT Community have anything really in common besides this mutual hatred for their "Others". So they have to put on this charade that everything is politically driven as they are.

They are neither Pro-LGBT in relation to anything else. They are Supremacists that want to crush the very culture (Western European) that allows them to exist in this current malignant configuration, but are too stupid to realize it. This is why BoxCrayonTales quote about East Asian people finding Western Fantasy "exotic" (he's not wrong, but the term has a totally different meaning today where "exotic" is seen as racist among SJWs), but to hold that view without context - you'll never see an SJW pull that shit on an Asian gaming forum asking for Black Representation... insinuating that Asians are racists because it causes them to short-circuit.

Because you know... only "white people" can be racist, is their mantra. I hate to break it to them... they really need to go travel a bit.

Very true. Man, I am enjoying your posts because I am in 100% agreement and this is making my day.

Thank you. It's just calling balls and strikes, brotha.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 12:22:16 PM
Truth be told the more freely available porn the less rape, yes I know correlation doesn't prove causation.

Studies suggest porn increases misogynistic attitudes. https://theconversation.com/pornography-has-deeply-troubling-effects-on-young-people-but-there-are-ways-we-can-minimise-the-harm-127319

Meanwhile, leftists claim the opposite: that porn is feminist. https://ovarit.com/o/Radfemmery/34663/28000-upvotes-on-preddit-hating-porn-is-sexist-loving-porn-is-feminist

Quote from: SHARK on June 22, 2021, 04:22:38 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on June 22, 2021, 02:41:31 AM

Quote from: imurrx on June 19, 2021, 11:22:10 AM
The only thing that 3e did was started using the word "she" instead of "him" in it's texts. It was a way to try break the gender divide and attract more females into the game. It bugged me when they did that switch. From a marketing point, they wanted a new audience instead of old aging fat men to play the game. There was not too much else they changed in my honest opinion that would invoke SJW....

I disagree.

Like I said; Critical Theory based "inclusive" politics were actively being injected in 3e D&D well before most people knew what an SJW was.

My Evidence:

Johnathan Tweet: 3e-and-the-feel-of-D&D
https://www.enworld.org/threads/3e-and-the-feel-of-d-d.667269/

Tweet openly talks about excising any references of or to real-world mythology when worldbuilding for official 3e D&D.

Making the game entirely self-referential.

Effectively doing a "Year Zero" of D&D lore...

Select quotes:
"...one part of the process I enjoyed was describing the world of D&D in its own terms, rather than referring to real-world history and mythology. When writing roleplaying games, I enjoy helping the player get immersed in the setting, and I always found these references to the real world to be distractions."
...
"...by the time we were working on 3rd Ed, D&D had had such a big impact on fantasy that we basically used D&D as its own source."
...
"We were fortunate that by 2000 D&D had such a strong legacy that it could stand on its own without reference to Earth history or mythology."


Johnathan Tweet: Diversity-in-D&D-third-edition
https://www.enworld.org/threads/diversity-in-d-d-third-edition.668462/

Tweet openly discusses pushing a "diversity and inclusion" agenda for 3e.

Select quotes:
"One way we diverged from the D&D heritage, however, was by making the game art more inclusive."
...
"Luckily for us, Wizards of the Coast had an established culture of egalitarianism, and we were able to update the characters depicted in the game to better reflect contemporary sensibilities."
...
"By the time I was working on 3E, I had been dealing with the pronoun issue for ten years."


Notice how pissed he gets when the WOTC Marketing team of the time insisted that they throw their biggest sales demographic a bone...

"...the marketing team added Regdar, a male fighter, to the mix of iconic characters. We designers weren't thrilled, and as the one who had drawn up the iconic characters I was a little chapped."

And to his utter horror:
"... Regdar proved popular, and if the marketing team was looking for an attractive character to publicize, they got one."


The White male fighter hate was strong with the 3e design team:

Monte Cook: Originally Posted by Monte Cook on his now defunct livejournal blog.
https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=16418

Select quotes:
"When I worked at TSR, there was always basically a truism in cover art--the central figure had to be a white male. Most of us actually helping to create the cover art, either by conceiving it or actually creating it, hated that kind of outlook, ..."
...
"...when D&D was bought by WotC and we started working on 3E, we really felt that this was a time when we could break this mold. ..."
...
"It was a thumb to the nose of the old TSR requirement."
...
"At least that was our intention."
...
"...to the credit of a number of people--artists, art directors, designers and editors alike--our disdain for Regdar made its way into a lot of art. If you look closely, Regdar is getting thrashed on most of the early pieces he shows up in. (Look for his ignominious fate on the original DM's Screen, for example.) ..."


James Jacobs: ( D&D writer, and current Creative Director for the Pathfinder Adventure Paths.)
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2iha2?Monte-Cook-on-Gender-and-Race-in-DD-Art

This shit just speaks for itself...

Select quote:
"Killing off Captain Whitebread is indeed a time-honored tradition in WotC books. I've written my fair share of art orders for those books, and have made sure to have Regdar get blasted or ruined or murdered a few times myself (such as at the end of Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk). It's a fun little semi-secret D&D tradition!"


WOTC D&D has hated its core sales demographic long before they eagerly bought their first copies of the 3e PHB.

And they have been paying WOTC to hate on them ever since.

Greetings!

Holy fuck, my friend! That's some outstanding work you have provided here! I've always known for many years that the "creative types" at WOTC were largely a bunch of cultural degenerates. Reading through the standard books at the time, you could see little glimpses of their counter-cultural myopia and hatred. The whole "Killing the Minotaur" article published from way back in the early 3E era provided additional confirmation of the growing leftist, anarchist, depraved cesspool that everyone at WOTC were becoming--and seeking to recruit more like-minded degenerates.

Your quotes here though, geesus. Very eye-opening, I confess. And sad, Jaeger. How fucking pathetic that all of these mostly middle-class professionals, all at least theoretically "educated"--and all mostly white men--are so full of self-loathing and hatred for everything that is white, traditional, and conservative. They are so fucking desperate to be accepted...by somebody...that they lift on high the constant litany of women this, minority that--regardless of how ahistorical, jarring, unrealistic, or inappropriate doing so obviously is, well beyond any kind of reasonably balanced and healthy perspective on all of it, just so they can giggle together like a bunch of shit-covered little boys, gathered around to stomp on someone they have hated forever. And these mostly white men, middle-class, educated professionals, are not in grade school, burdened by the many ignorant attitudes of such an immature age--they are all adults.

Their whole attitude seems so juvenile, so full of self-loathing, and a pathetic shrieking exclamation of "PICK ME! PICK ME!"--while they go about condescendingly and smugly disparaging (and slipping in their little needles) the vast majority of the audience that has supported this hobby for decades since the beginning.

So sad, Jaeger.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Looking back at the history of TSR and WOTC, you can see where the problems with degeneracy and wokeness started. It's when guys like Tweet and Cook were brought on to design games and create content. There were two distinct eras at play here

1. The Edgy (in a punk rock, lefty kind of way), juvenile stage, in which D&D became self-referential (see above) and started to become video-gamey.

A good example is the "Book of Vile Darkness" written by Cook. A tome that features references to necrophilia, incest, killing children, and other wonderful stuff. It even has pictures of topless women missing breasts, and a demonic girl pushing up against her well-endowed arch-devil father. Tracy Hickman denounced it as cheap trash, and rightfully so.

Meanwhile, "diversity" was injected into the game in a clumsy way, and the quality of he writing went to complete shit. The 3rd edition rules were a complete mess with all the feats breaking the game and making DMing difficult. There were volumes of unnecessary rules, which amounted to a cash grab.

And guys like Skip Williams, who was a minor assistant and editor in the 80s and 90s, became principal designers and authors --only his stuff was boring, uninspired, and legalistic.

2. When D&D becomes Disney

The second era involved making the game suitable for mass consumption, taking out any objectionable content, making it even more self-referential (no real-world historical elements), and completely woke. A game that can literally be sold in mainland China without making the CCP angry.

Guys like R.A. Salvatore fit right in, with his cheesy tie-in material featuring "good" Drow. And now we see races being done away with (racist!), and "essentialism" regarding evil creatures abolished.

--

In a nutshell, there has been a decline in quality all around, mixed with greater injection of woke politics into the game. Doesn't mean the game is terrible, or that you can't have fun playing it, but it isn't what it was (not to sound like grognard, but this is the truth). The intended audience is a 16-year old upper-middle-class white girl living in Boston at this point.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 22, 2021, 12:43:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 12:22:16 PM
Truth be told the more freely available porn the less rape, yes I know correlation doesn't prove causation.

Studies suggest porn increases misogynistic attitudes. https://theconversation.com/pornography-has-deeply-troubling-effects-on-young-people-but-there-are-ways-we-can-minimise-the-harm-127319

Meanwhile, leftists claim the opposite: that porn is feminist. https://ovarit.com/o/Radfemmery/34663/28000-upvotes-on-preddit-hating-porn-is-sexist-loving-porn-is-feminist

Take this discussion you know where, not gonna continue it here.

Quote from: SirGalahad on June 22, 2021, 01:17:24 PM
2. When D&D becomes Disney

The second era involved making the game suitable for mass consumption, taking out any objectionable content, making it even more self-referential (no real-world historical elements), and completely woke. A game that can literally be sold in mainland China without making the CCP angry.

Guys like R.A. Salvatore fit right in, with his cheesy tie-in material featuring "good" Drow. And now we see races being done away with (racist!), and "essentialism" regarding evil creatures abolished.

When Salvatore was writing Drizzt, Good Drow were edgy and now you try and classify them as Disney.

Quote from: Shasarak on June 22, 2021, 05:04:06 PM

Quote from: SirGalahad on June 22, 2021, 01:17:24 PM
2. When D&D becomes Disney

The second era involved making the game suitable for mass consumption, taking out any objectionable content, making it even more self-referential (no real-world historical elements), and completely woke. A game that can literally be sold in mainland China without making the CCP angry.

Guys like R.A. Salvatore fit right in, with his cheesy tie-in material featuring "good" Drow. And now we see races being done away with (racist!), and "essentialism" regarding evil creatures abolished.

When Salvatore was writing Drizzt, Good Drow were edgy and now you try and classify them as Disney.

How would good Drow be edgy?

The Drow that were pure evil, had blackish-purplish skin, and who practiced human/elven sacrifice were edgy

What do Drow look like now? Pink skin and riding unicorns? Neutral alignment and non-binary?

Drizzt conceptually was fine as a one-off fictional vehicle.

He was the exception that defined the norm of Drow society.

Now? Blech. Talk about missing the whole fucking point. Again - I have other options to run my D&D (see Savage Pathfinder) and nary a drop of SJW Cuckery is to be found.

I'm not sure what this Nu-TSR incarnation is going to bring to the table that will attract OSR/Non-OSR folks back if there is even a whiff of the usual bullshit. And that aroma is already building.

Quote from: tenbones on June 22, 2021, 05:17:19 PM
Drizzt conceptually was fine as a one-off fictional vehicle.

He was the exception that defined the norm of Drow society.

Now? Blech. Talk about missing the whole fucking point. Again - I have other options to run my D&D (see Savage Pathfinder) and nary a drop of SJW Cuckery is to be found.

I'm not sure what this Nu-TSR incarnation is going to bring to the table that will attract OSR/Non-OSR folks back if there is even a whiff of the usual bullshit. And that aroma is already building.

I listened to that podcast with the dude who did the Giantlands KS, and he sounded like a leftist hipster quite frankly. The game doesn't sound particularly interesting, and I don't see the "catch"

contrast that with new games like Vaesen, Shadows of Esteren, or even MYFAROG, which all have carefully developed fantasy worlds that shadow European cultures, have unique mechanics that tie into these worlds, and have intriguing premises (say what you will about Varg, he has put a fair amount of effort into the game).

Giantlands looks like a scattershot hodge-podge high fantasy game that tries to be all things to all gamers --that never works.

Quote from: SirGalahad on June 22, 2021, 05:15:42 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on June 22, 2021, 05:04:06 PM

Quote from: SirGalahad on June 22, 2021, 01:17:24 PM
2. When D&D becomes Disney

The second era involved making the game suitable for mass consumption, taking out any objectionable content, making it even more self-referential (no real-world historical elements), and completely woke. A game that can literally be sold in mainland China without making the CCP angry.

Guys like R.A. Salvatore fit right in, with his cheesy tie-in material featuring "good" Drow. And now we see races being done away with (racist!), and "essentialism" regarding evil creatures abolished.

When Salvatore was writing Drizzt, Good Drow were edgy and now you try and classify them as Disney.

How would good Drow be edgy?

The Drow that were pure evil, had blackish-purplish skin, and who practiced human/elven sacrifice were edgy

In the 80s Drow that were pure evil, had blackish-purplish skin, and who practiced human/elven sacrifice was just the standard.  They were not edgy.

Quote from: SirGalahad on June 22, 2021, 05:15:42 PM
What do Drow look like now? Pink skin and riding unicorns? Neutral alignment and non-binary?

They look like Elves with blackish-purplish skin.

Quote from: tenbones on June 22, 2021, 05:17:19 PM
Drizzt conceptually was fine as a one-off fictional vehicle.

He was the exception that defined the norm of Drow society.

Now? Blech. Talk about missing the whole fucking point. Again - I have other options to run my D&D (see Savage Pathfinder) and nary a drop of SJW Cuckery is to be found.

I'm not sure what this Nu-TSR incarnation is going to bring to the table that will attract OSR/Non-OSR folks back if there is even a whiff of the usual bullshit. And that aroma is already building.

Correct. Even the drow who followed Eilistraee were very much a minority.

But then that's a common problem. You develop a character as part of a literary device, and suddenly everyone wants to play knockoffs and make it as common as, well, commoners.

I'm surprised Jarlaxle doesn't get much mention in those discussions. Forget playing Drizzt, I wanted to play that smooth talking bullshit artist who dressed like he was going to hit Mardi Gras

They announced they want to bring back Star Frontiers, but don't seem to actually have the copyrights.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 23, 2021, 08:01:48 AM
I'm surprised Jarlaxle doesn't get much mention in those discussions. Forget playing Drizzt, I wanted to play that smooth talking bullshit artist who dressed like he was going to hit Mardi Gras

Jarlaxle was always the coolest. I had this great admiration for Uthegental, simply because he was like the Mountain That Rides - a two-dimensional killing machine that was so badass he beat a battlerager dwarf and his whole squad into knowing fear. C'mon that's a badass. I called bullshit on his death.

Watching WotC ruin the Drow (and narratively destroying their historical context) is yet another reason I'm happy Savage Worlds Pathfinder is going to be my replacement for all things D&D, where Drow remain evil Lolth-worshipping bastards.

I always figured that Jarlaxe was way cooler though less liked because while he was a likeable bastardized he still was a bastard after his own interests. While also being less emo and less full of angst than Drizzt.

Quote from: tenbones on June 23, 2021, 09:26:28 AMWatching WotC ruin the Drow (and narratively destroying their historical context) is yet another reason I'm happy Savage Worlds Pathfinder is going to be my replacement for all things D&D, where Drow remain evil Lolth-worshipping bastards.

Id wager the 1e stuff (lore and world) is more popular. Thats why they adapt that stuff and not the 2e stuff.

Quote from: tenbones on June 19, 2021, 03:27:55 AM
Wow fuck this game.

Bingo.