Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 03:21:42 AM
...

Your only error is thinking this wasn't in gestation well before then, the infection was already under way in the 80's. That's when the first anti chainmail bikini article ever was published in Dragon or Dungeon.
...

I'll quibble a touch. No error in thinking here.

I specifically highlighted 3e because it is easier to get references. And D&D falling into WOTC's hands was a big turning point for the game.

I'm well aware that the rot started a whole hell of a lot earlier than most people would imagine.

The "chainmail bikini" outrage was manufactured back then the same way that Orcs = black people outrage was manufactured today.

Just like the whole D&D is the devil "Satanic Panic" was a media driven ratings grab where the left got to play one of their favorite games.

The cultural rot goes waaaayyyyy back.

And it is Deep.

Quote from: Jaeger on June 22, 2021, 03:39:23 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 03:21:42 AM
...

Your only error is thinking this wasn't in gestation well before then, the infection was already under way in the 80's. That's when the first anti chainmail bikini article ever was published in Dragon or Dungeon.
...

I'll quibble a touch. No error in thinking here.

I specifically highlighted 3e because it is easier to get references. And D&D falling into WOTC's hands was a big turning point for the game.

I'm well aware that the rot started a whole hell of a lot earlier than most people would imagine.

The "chainmail bikini" outrage was manufactured back then the same way that Orcs = black people outrage was manufactured today.

Just like the whole D&D is the devil "Satanic Panic" was a media driven ratings grab where the left got to play one of their favorite games.

The cultural rot goes waaaayyyyy back.

And it is Deep.

In the 60's-70's there was a battle between sex positive feminists and sex negative feminists, to the eyes of the normie the sex positive ones won, truth is the other ones went into academia, infected everything and developed their pseudo science.

From there the infection started to expand into culture, the more niche a form of entertainment the easiest it was to infiltrate at first, with "small" seemingly reasonable (to the normie's eyes) requests.

The Chainmail bikini was made at the perfect time, TSR could please the phantom audience of "offended wahmen" AND take one weapon away from the fundies in one fell swoop.

But as we all are well aware by now (or should be) bending the knee is blood in the water, you did it once and will do it again, you have shown you lack the spine. In animalistic terms you're no Alpha of no pack, you're a gamma or a betta at best.

Pressure will keep on being exerted over you until you bend the knee again, and again, and again...

Sadly for the commies in charge of WotC they made the OGL, and now the genie is out of the bottle, and they have no chance of putting it back in.

Chainmal Bikini & Loincloth Armor High Fantasy RPG

How does it sound?

Enough Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee potential to harvest those sweet, sweet free publicity bucks?

Quote from: Jaeger on June 22, 2021, 02:41:31 AM

Quote from: imurrx on June 19, 2021, 11:22:10 AM
The only thing that 3e did was started using the word "she" instead of "him" in it's texts. It was a way to try break the gender divide and attract more females into the game. It bugged me when they did that switch. From a marketing point, they wanted a new audience instead of old aging fat men to play the game. There was not too much else they changed in my honest opinion that would invoke SJW....

I disagree.

Like I said; Critical Theory based "inclusive" politics were actively being injected in 3e D&D well before most people knew what an SJW was.

My Evidence:

Johnathan Tweet: 3e-and-the-feel-of-D&D
https://www.enworld.org/threads/3e-and-the-feel-of-d-d.667269/

Tweet openly talks about excising any references of or to real-world mythology when worldbuilding for official 3e D&D.

Making the game entirely self-referential.

Effectively doing a "Year Zero" of D&D lore...

Select quotes:
"...one part of the process I enjoyed was describing the world of D&D in its own terms, rather than referring to real-world history and mythology. When writing roleplaying games, I enjoy helping the player get immersed in the setting, and I always found these references to the real world to be distractions."
...
"...by the time we were working on 3rd Ed, D&D had had such a big impact on fantasy that we basically used D&D as its own source."
...
"We were fortunate that by 2000 D&D had such a strong legacy that it could stand on its own without reference to Earth history or mythology."


Johnathan Tweet: Diversity-in-D&D-third-edition
https://www.enworld.org/threads/diversity-in-d-d-third-edition.668462/

Tweet openly discusses pushing a "diversity and inclusion" agenda for 3e.

Select quotes:
"One way we diverged from the D&D heritage, however, was by making the game art more inclusive."
...
"Luckily for us, Wizards of the Coast had an established culture of egalitarianism, and we were able to update the characters depicted in the game to better reflect contemporary sensibilities."
...
"By the time I was working on 3E, I had been dealing with the pronoun issue for ten years."


Notice how pissed he gets when the WOTC Marketing team of the time insisted that they throw their biggest sales demographic a bone...

"...the marketing team added Regdar, a male fighter, to the mix of iconic characters. We designers weren't thrilled, and as the one who had drawn up the iconic characters I was a little chapped."

And to his utter horror:
"... Regdar proved popular, and if the marketing team was looking for an attractive character to publicize, they got one."


The White male fighter hate was strong with the 3e design team:

Monte Cook: Originally Posted by Monte Cook on his now defunct livejournal blog.
https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=16418

Select quotes:
"When I worked at TSR, there was always basically a truism in cover art--the central figure had to be a white male. Most of us actually helping to create the cover art, either by conceiving it or actually creating it, hated that kind of outlook, ..."
...
"...when D&D was bought by WotC and we started working on 3E, we really felt that this was a time when we could break this mold. ..."
...
"It was a thumb to the nose of the old TSR requirement."
...
"At least that was our intention."
...
"...to the credit of a number of people--artists, art directors, designers and editors alike--our disdain for Regdar made its way into a lot of art. If you look closely, Regdar is getting thrashed on most of the early pieces he shows up in. (Look for his ignominious fate on the original DM's Screen, for example.) ..."


James Jacobs: ( D&D writer, and current Creative Director for the Pathfinder Adventure Paths.)
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2iha2?Monte-Cook-on-Gender-and-Race-in-DD-Art

This shit just speaks for itself...

Select quote:
"Killing off Captain Whitebread is indeed a time-honored tradition in WotC books. I've written my fair share of art orders for those books, and have made sure to have Regdar get blasted or ruined or murdered a few times myself (such as at the end of Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk). It's a fun little semi-secret D&D tradition!"


WOTC D&D has hated its core sales demographic long before they eagerly bought their first copies of the 3e PHB.

And they have been paying WOTC to hate on them ever since.

Greetings!

Holy fuck, my friend! That's some outstanding work you have provided here! I've always known for many years that the "creative types" at WOTC were largely a bunch of cultural degenerates. Reading through the standard books at the time, you could see little glimpses of their counter-cultural myopia and hatred. The whole "Killing the Minotaur" article published from way back in the early 3E era provided additional confirmation of the growing leftist, anarchist, depraved cesspool that everyone at WOTC were becoming--and seeking to recruit more like-minded degenerates.

Your quotes here though, geesus. Very eye-opening, I confess. And sad, Jaeger. How fucking pathetic that all of these mostly middle-class professionals, all at least theoretically "educated"--and all mostly white men--are so full of self-loathing and hatred for everything that is white, traditional, and conservative. They are so fucking desperate to be accepted...by somebody...that they lift on high the constant litany of women this, minority that--regardless of how ahistorical, jarring, unrealistic, or inappropriate doing so obviously is, well beyond any kind of reasonably balanced and healthy perspective on all of it, just so they can giggle together like a bunch of shit-covered little boys, gathered around to stomp on someone they have hated forever. And these mostly white men, middle-class, educated professionals, are not in grade school, burdened by the many ignorant attitudes of such an immature age--they are all adults.

Their whole attitude seems so juvenile, so full of self-loathing, and a pathetic shrieking exclamation of "PICK ME! PICK ME!"--while they go about condescendingly and smugly disparaging (and slipping in their little needles) the vast majority of the audience that has supported this hobby for decades since the beginning.

So sad, Jaeger.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Jaeger on June 22, 2021, 02:41:31 AM
James Jacobs: ( D&D writer, and current Creative Director for the Pathfinder Adventure Paths.)[/b]
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2iha2?Monte-Cook-on-Gender-and-Race-in-DD-Art

This shit just speaks for itself...

Select quote:
"Killing off Captain Whitebread is indeed a time-honored tradition in WotC books. I've written my fair share of art orders for those books, and have made sure to have Regdar get blasted or ruined or murdered a few times myself (such as at the end of Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk). It's a fun little semi-secret D&D tradition!"


WOTC D&D has hated its core sales demographic long before they eagerly bought their first copies of the 3e PHB.

And they have been paying WOTC to hate on them ever since.

There is nothing wrong with killing off White Male Fighters.  I personally have had many White Male Fighters killed off over the years and, indeed, am trying to kill off one particularly stubborn one in my current campaign.

As for Monte Cook, well he has Shanna "Consent in Gaming" Germain so looks like he is set.

Monte Cook is a hack.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 21, 2021, 10:15:11 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 21, 2021, 02:30:53 PM

Quote from: tenbones on June 21, 2021, 12:15:50 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 21, 2021, 10:37:35 AM

Quote from: imurrx on June 19, 2021, 05:01:02 PM
The chainmail bikini offers no protection except as a distraction or unless they have been "enhanced".

I just saying...

The fur loincloth offers a comparable lack of protection for our barbarian heroes.

... and yet no one really complains about that.

It's almost like the people that do the complaining about these things really have to get cyclopian in their squinting to find something to complain about.

Edit: As an aside, I loved how Beasts and Barbarians created an Edge - Loincloth Hero, to allow people to play that (works as a Chainmail Bikini too).

Maybe being big and strong and scantily clad is a male fantasy or something? But conversely a chainmail bikini is not a female fantasy?

Why is it that Thor (The Movie) had a 48% of female audience?)

Also Google Boudica.

I didn't say it wasn't a female fantasy. I was wondering why it wasn't criticized anywhere near as often as the bikini armor.

If I understand correctly then the logic here is that guys want to be He-Man, whereas gals want to fuck He-Man.

QuoteAlso Google Boudica.

What's your point? She never wore a chainmail bikini.

So apparently that Giantlands KS is already 1 1/2 years late on delivery

The author is claiming COVID-19 set him back.

I worked from home all last year and got quite a bit done, including some long technical documents with diagrams, custom graphics, etc. that had to be publication-quality. I don't recall the virus shutting down all computer systems and the Internet for 12 months.

Every time these guys (a select crowd of dudes who like to make money through crowd funding and then fail to deliver) are late on anything, there are excuses: "I had to go to the doctor"! "My dog needs an operation"! (remember that one from Ernie?), "the virus"!

and speaking of Gygax family fiascos, we also have the cancellation of Garycon last year.

They sold over $150,000 in badges and merchandise, and when COVID-19 hit, they promptly cancelled the convention, and told everyone "sorry no refunds for anything"

then attendees found out that the Grand Geneva Hotel had refunded all monies involved with reserving the room block and equipment back to the organizers, meaning that they suffered no financial damages. When pressed on this, they said "we had to buy swag, so we can't refund any money"

150k went to swag and merchandise? Bullshit. Not even 10k went towards that. Every other convention in the US that was cancelled because of the virus either fully refunded badges, let attendees use the badges for the next year, or at the very least offered partial refunds.

When some attendees got pissed and started pushing back, the organizers moved the convention to a virtual platform, but  kept the money. So people ended up getting a Rol20 game for $75 - $2000 (platinum badge) that lasted one day.

And then we have the Gygax memorial statue that Gail is promising. How long has that been going for now? 11 years? Money is long gone and no statue was ever erected.

What are we up to now? 250k? makes Ken Whitman look like an amateur as far as this stuff goes.

--

Honestly guys, stop giving money to people because they have a "famous" last name. Stop assuming that they can produce a decent RPG or supplement, even though they have no credits to their name, and have never published a thing. Don't give piles of cash to a guy fo 3-4 years straight because he lost some personal items in a fire (and had insurance), when you don't even know that dude. Don't let people walk off with your money with some flimsy excuse because his last name is Gygax. You wouldn't do any of this for other people, and there would be accountability.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 04:04:36 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on June 22, 2021, 03:39:23 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 03:21:42 AM
...

Your only error is thinking this wasn't in gestation well before then, the infection was already under way in the 80's. That's when the first anti chainmail bikini article ever was published in Dragon or Dungeon.
...

I'll quibble a touch. No error in thinking here.

I specifically highlighted 3e because it is easier to get references. And D&D falling into WOTC's hands was a big turning point for the game.

I'm well aware that the rot started a whole hell of a lot earlier than most people would imagine.

The "chainmail bikini" outrage was manufactured back then the same way that Orcs = black people outrage was manufactured today.

Just like the whole D&D is the devil "Satanic Panic" was a media driven ratings grab where the left got to play one of their favorite games.

The cultural rot goes waaaayyyyy back.

And it is Deep.

In the 60's-70's there was a battle between sex positive feminists and sex negative feminists, to the eyes of the normie the sex positive ones won, truth is the other ones went into academia, infected everything and developed their pseudo science.

From there the infection started to expand into culture, the more niche a form of entertainment the easiest it was to infiltrate at first, with "small" seemingly reasonable (to the normie's eyes) requests.

The Chainmail bikini was made at the perfect time, TSR could please the phantom audience of "offended wahmen" AND take one weapon away from the fundies in one fell swoop.

But as we all are well aware by now (or should be) bending the knee is blood in the water, you did it once and will do it again, you have shown you lack the spine. In animalistic terms you're no Alpha of no pack, you're a gamma or a betta at best.

Pressure will keep on being exerted over you until you bend the knee again, and again, and again...

Sadly for the commies in charge of WotC they made the OGL, and now the genie is out of the bottle, and they have no chance of putting it back in.

Chainmal Bikini & Loincloth Armor High Fantasy RPG

How does it sound?

Enough Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee potential to harvest those sweet, sweet free publicity bucks?

Sex positive versus sex negative is an overly simplistic way of putting it that misses key nuances. Namely, sex work is neither. After all the evidence I've seen, I don't believe that you can support sex work (including porn) and be genuinely feminist.

OR... maybe we should accept that biological reality is real. That males like what they like because of their biology, and so do women regardless of what fancy-schmancy ideologies espoused by outliers to the norm?

The fact that D&D traditionally marketed to their largest demographic should *surprise NOBODY*. The fact that young Africans and Asians didn't discover D&D in the late 70's wasn't simply because of you know, it started in America which was predominantly white and culturally Western European. Why should anyone be shocked that the demographics of a small business like TSR would ignite under a largely young white-male nerdy audience... you know, the very demographic of the people that created it?

The fucked up part is that reaching out to other demographics shouldn't have *anything* to do with destroying your primary demographic. That's the part where it reveals the self-loathing of creators in the medium. In what reality would you want to hire employees that actually want to subvert your product for their own egoic issues?

Nothing prevents them from marketing to other demographics with content designed to attract those people without destroying your current IP model. It's not either-or. It's this AND that. You see this in the comicbook world now - we can't make great superheroes that are female and/or ethnic etc. instead we have to destroy the IPs that exist by race/gender swapping them out of "revenge" more than an honest attempt at trying to make something good contextually.

Yes the majority of players are white and male. Service your demographic faithfully. Appeal to your new demographics faithfully, but be prepared that *some* people will never want your product for "reasons". They are not mutually exclusive unless you have mental issues.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 22, 2021, 09:28:19 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 21, 2021, 10:15:11 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 21, 2021, 02:30:53 PM

Quote from: tenbones on June 21, 2021, 12:15:50 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 21, 2021, 10:37:35 AM

Quote from: imurrx on June 19, 2021, 05:01:02 PM
The chainmail bikini offers no protection except as a distraction or unless they have been "enhanced".

I just saying...

The fur loincloth offers a comparable lack of protection for our barbarian heroes.

... and yet no one really complains about that.

It's almost like the people that do the complaining about these things really have to get cyclopian in their squinting to find something to complain about.

Edit: As an aside, I loved how Beasts and Barbarians created an Edge - Loincloth Hero, to allow people to play that (works as a Chainmail Bikini too).

Maybe being big and strong and scantily clad is a male fantasy or something? But conversely a chainmail bikini is not a female fantasy?

Why is it that Thor (The Movie) had a 48% of female audience?)

Also Google Boudica.

I didn't say it wasn't a female fantasy. I was wondering why it wasn't criticized anywhere near as often as the bikini armor.

If I understand correctly then the logic here is that guys want to be He-Man, whereas gals want to fuck He-Man.

QuoteAlso Google Boudica.

What's your point? She never wore a chainmail bikini.

Also women (some of them) want to be Red Sonja/Boudica. The other women would like to bang her. And both straight and gay women like to look at sexy women. The dreaded "Male Gaze" is a myth.

Correct, Boudica never wore Chainmail Bikini she didn't wear any armor at all, and the original complaint was that chainmail bikini was "unrealistic" as it offered zero protection. My guess would be it offers as much protection as your regular clothing would agasinst a very sharp gladius.

But we all know the complaint was a disingenuous attack on the hobby and nothing that women in general really found offensive (even if one were to believe that being offended is an argument).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 22, 2021, 10:19:14 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 04:04:36 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on June 22, 2021, 03:39:23 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 03:21:42 AM
...

Your only error is thinking this wasn't in gestation well before then, the infection was already under way in the 80's. That's when the first anti chainmail bikini article ever was published in Dragon or Dungeon.
...

I'll quibble a touch. No error in thinking here.

I specifically highlighted 3e because it is easier to get references. And D&D falling into WOTC's hands was a big turning point for the game.

I'm well aware that the rot started a whole hell of a lot earlier than most people would imagine.

The "chainmail bikini" outrage was manufactured back then the same way that Orcs = black people outrage was manufactured today.

Just like the whole D&D is the devil "Satanic Panic" was a media driven ratings grab where the left got to play one of their favorite games.

The cultural rot goes waaaayyyyy back.

And it is Deep.

In the 60's-70's there was a battle between sex positive feminists and sex negative feminists, to the eyes of the normie the sex positive ones won, truth is the other ones went into academia, infected everything and developed their pseudo science.

From there the infection started to expand into culture, the more niche a form of entertainment the easiest it was to infiltrate at first, with "small" seemingly reasonable (to the normie's eyes) requests.

The Chainmail bikini was made at the perfect time, TSR could please the phantom audience of "offended wahmen" AND take one weapon away from the fundies in one fell swoop.

But as we all are well aware by now (or should be) bending the knee is blood in the water, you did it once and will do it again, you have shown you lack the spine. In animalistic terms you're no Alpha of no pack, you're a gamma or a betta at best.

Pressure will keep on being exerted over you until you bend the knee again, and again, and again...

Sadly for the commies in charge of WotC they made the OGL, and now the genie is out of the bottle, and they have no chance of putting it back in.

Chainmal Bikini & Loincloth Armor High Fantasy RPG

How does it sound?

Enough Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee potential to harvest those sweet, sweet free publicity bucks?

Sex positive versus sex negative is an overly simplistic way of putting it that misses key nuances. Namely, sex work is neither. After all the evidence I've seen, I don't believe that you can support sex work (including porn) and be genuinely feminist.

Right, because nothing says women's rights and women's liberation like limiting what they can or can't do based on YOUR morals.

Quote from: tenbones on June 22, 2021, 10:54:18 AM
OR... maybe we should accept that biological reality is real. That males like what they like because of their biology, and so do women regardless of what fancy-schmancy ideologies espoused by outliers to the norm?

The fact that D&D traditionally marketed to their largest demographic should *surprise NOBODY*. The fact that young Africans and Asians didn't discover D&D in the late 70's wasn't simply because of you know, it started in America which was predominantly white and culturally Western European. Why should anyone be shocked that the demographics of a small business like TSR would ignite under a largely young white-male nerdy audience... you know, the very demographic of the people that created it?

The fucked up part is that reaching out to other demographics shouldn't have *anything* to do with destroying your primary demographic. That's the part where it reveals the self-loathing of creators in the medium. In what reality would you want to hire employees that actually want to subvert your product for their own egoic issues?

Nothing prevents them from marketing to other demographics with content designed to attract those people without destroying your current IP model. It's not either-or. It's this AND that. You see this in the comicbook world now - we can't make great superheroes that are female and/or ethnic etc. instead we have to destroy the IPs that exist by race/gender swapping them out of "revenge" more than an honest attempt at trying to make something good contextually.

Yes the majority of players are white and male. Service your demographic faithfully. Appeal to your new demographics faithfully, but be prepared that *some* people will never want your product for "reasons". They are not mutually exclusive unless you have mental issues.

Exactly.

One should also remember that even if the main demographic of product X is white males that doesn't mean something nefarious has happened.

Bodice rippers, 50 shades of depravity, etc. main audience? Female, depending on the country it will be white or not. Has some crime been commited against males for not making those more like I dunno, spy thrillers?

Now you narrow your audience even more when you talk about things that used to be niche, that got you ostracized for liking them, especially as a teen and you multiply the self selecting. nNot everybody is into collecting postal stamps, has any crime been commited?

Now add that for reasons some communities think of certain things as "white" things and will pressure ppl from the community not to engage in those. Is that also whitey's blame?

RPGs started where? in middle class suburbia no? What was the main demographic there? Nothing nefarious was done, and nothing nefarious was done against women either, they just (most of them) don't like the same stuff that we nerds like. And way back when the ones that did risked ostracizing for having nerd cooties if the "nice" girls found out they did. If you want to lie the blame at someone's feet you need to go to those communities and ask them to stop self segregating and to the cool kids and ask them to stop being assholes.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 10:56:38 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 22, 2021, 10:19:14 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 04:04:36 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on June 22, 2021, 03:39:23 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 03:21:42 AM
...

Your only error is thinking this wasn't in gestation well before then, the infection was already under way in the 80's. That's when the first anti chainmail bikini article ever was published in Dragon or Dungeon.
...

I'll quibble a touch. No error in thinking here.

I specifically highlighted 3e because it is easier to get references. And D&D falling into WOTC's hands was a big turning point for the game.

I'm well aware that the rot started a whole hell of a lot earlier than most people would imagine.

The "chainmail bikini" outrage was manufactured back then the same way that Orcs = black people outrage was manufactured today.

Just like the whole D&D is the devil "Satanic Panic" was a media driven ratings grab where the left got to play one of their favorite games.

The cultural rot goes waaaayyyyy back.

And it is Deep.

In the 60's-70's there was a battle between sex positive feminists and sex negative feminists, to the eyes of the normie the sex positive ones won, truth is the other ones went into academia, infected everything and developed their pseudo science.

From there the infection started to expand into culture, the more niche a form of entertainment the easiest it was to infiltrate at first, with "small" seemingly reasonable (to the normie's eyes) requests.

The Chainmail bikini was made at the perfect time, TSR could please the phantom audience of "offended wahmen" AND take one weapon away from the fundies in one fell swoop.

But as we all are well aware by now (or should be) bending the knee is blood in the water, you did it once and will do it again, you have shown you lack the spine. In animalistic terms you're no Alpha of no pack, you're a gamma or a betta at best.

Pressure will keep on being exerted over you until you bend the knee again, and again, and again...

Sadly for the commies in charge of WotC they made the OGL, and now the genie is out of the bottle, and they have no chance of putting it back in.

Chainmal Bikini & Loincloth Armor High Fantasy RPG

How does it sound?

Enough Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee potential to harvest those sweet, sweet free publicity bucks?

Sex positive versus sex negative is an overly simplistic way of putting it that misses key nuances. Namely, sex work is neither. After all the evidence I've seen, I don't believe that you can support sex work (including porn) and be genuinely feminist.

Right, because nothing says women's rights and women's liberation like limiting what they can or can't do based on YOUR morals.

You honestly think most prostitutes have a choice in the matter? They don't. They're mostly poor women being trafficked and exploited. Prostitution is not empowering, it is not liberating, and it actively violates women's rights. Prostitutes are victims, not women freely exercising their rights. Celebrities with an OnlyFans account are not representative.

https://nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 22, 2021, 11:16:29 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 10:56:38 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 22, 2021, 10:19:14 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 04:04:36 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on June 22, 2021, 03:39:23 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 22, 2021, 03:21:42 AM
...

Your only error is thinking this wasn't in gestation well before then, the infection was already under way in the 80's. That's when the first anti chainmail bikini article ever was published in Dragon or Dungeon.
...

I'll quibble a touch. No error in thinking here.

I specifically highlighted 3e because it is easier to get references. And D&D falling into WOTC's hands was a big turning point for the game.

I'm well aware that the rot started a whole hell of a lot earlier than most people would imagine.

The "chainmail bikini" outrage was manufactured back then the same way that Orcs = black people outrage was manufactured today.

Just like the whole D&D is the devil "Satanic Panic" was a media driven ratings grab where the left got to play one of their favorite games.

The cultural rot goes waaaayyyyy back.

And it is Deep.

In the 60's-70's there was a battle between sex positive feminists and sex negative feminists, to the eyes of the normie the sex positive ones won, truth is the other ones went into academia, infected everything and developed their pseudo science.

From there the infection started to expand into culture, the more niche a form of entertainment the easiest it was to infiltrate at first, with "small" seemingly reasonable (to the normie's eyes) requests.

The Chainmail bikini was made at the perfect time, TSR could please the phantom audience of "offended wahmen" AND take one weapon away from the fundies in one fell swoop.

But as we all are well aware by now (or should be) bending the knee is blood in the water, you did it once and will do it again, you have shown you lack the spine. In animalistic terms you're no Alpha of no pack, you're a gamma or a betta at best.

Pressure will keep on being exerted over you until you bend the knee again, and again, and again...

Sadly for the commies in charge of WotC they made the OGL, and now the genie is out of the bottle, and they have no chance of putting it back in.

Chainmal Bikini & Loincloth Armor High Fantasy RPG

How does it sound?

Enough Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee potential to harvest those sweet, sweet free publicity bucks?

Sex positive versus sex negative is an overly simplistic way of putting it that misses key nuances. Namely, sex work is neither. After all the evidence I've seen, I don't believe that you can support sex work (including porn) and be genuinely feminist.

Right, because nothing says women's rights and women's liberation like limiting what they can or can't do based on YOUR morals.

You honestly think most prostitutes have a choice in the matter? They don't. They're mostly poor women being trafficked and exploited. Prostitution is not empowering, it is not liberating, and it actively violates women's rights. Prostitutes are victims, not women freely exercising their rights. Celebrities with an OnlyFans account are not representative.

https://nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

Human traficking is illegal and rigthly so, "exploited" you'll need to define that but I guess this topic isn't right for here. So I'm droping it, if you wish to continue you know where.

Anyway, I'm ambivalent toward bikini armor. If studies show that consistent exposure to it increases objectification attitudes towards women or men alike, then I'd be against it. At the same time, I think that's treating a symptom rather than the disease itself. I support topfreedom because covering women up doesn't decrease objectification. Sorry, Buzzfeed or whatever, your covered up heroines not only don't end objectification but probably make it worse. I don't think the problem is nudity in itself (there are/were cultures where women routinely go/went topless without issue, like the Minoans), but socialization: more specifically, the hyper-sexualization and dehumanization/objectification of women's bodies as compared to men's. That is, it's not the depiction of bikini armor or nudity but the way that viewers (are intended/trained to) react to it.

On a semi-related note: One of my favorite games, Planescape: Torment, has a conversation where Fall-From-Grace explains that strategically placed cloth can be more titillating than simple nudity. It's a lesson that I wish many others would learn.