Ah, also prepare some "adventurer packs" for players to equip themselves with quickly, no substitutions! Fighter's Pack, Thieves' Pack, etc. Anything to make character creation quicker. Also this way you ensure they have any items you think are necessary.

With complete beginners, I think it is actually better to start with 1st level, core books only, and let things fly.  If they do something completely crazy or get unlucky, you could have a TPK inside of 2 hours.  This can be a good thing--if you haven't spent a lot of time making characters.  The second try seems to go better, and the by third, people have the hang of what is going on, without all that much time invested in characters yet. 

Once that's out of the way, then you suggest starting characters a bit higher level to experience that.  A newbie handed a 3rd to 5th level character just has a buffer before adjusting to the style kills the character anyway.  So it drags out the inevitable.  A player that's already buried a few 1st level characters has a shot at keeping that slightly higher character intact. 

I think David's larger point is correct, even though I'm disagreeing on the exact tactics to get there:  Don't leave people in the funnel forever, but give them a brief taste of it as a quick orientation to how the game works.

 

Quote from: Baron on April 11, 2023, 09:43:38 PM
I would avoid hirelings and henchmen with twelve players! That's just too complicated! Which leads to another thought. Having twelve PCs in the party means that challenging them with opponents might be a bit of a tightrope-walk until you get used to it. Do some practice combat sessions on your own or with your kid's help, to get a feel for what's appropriate.

While the rest of your post seemed very on point and helpful, I don't have 12 players. You may be thinking of someone else? (Pen, maybe, looking over other threads? Hopefully I didn't inadvertently steal some of the advice meant to be going his way.) Thanks for the responses, though, and I do think that it will probably be of use, as with pretty much all of what I'm picking up here.

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 11, 2023, 11:54:16 PM

Quote from: Baron on April 11, 2023, 09:43:38 PM
I would avoid hirelings and henchmen with twelve players! That's just too complicated! Which leads to another thought. Having twelve PCs in the party means that challenging them with opponents might be a bit of a tightrope-walk until you get used to it. Do some practice combat sessions on your own or with your kid's help, to get a feel for what's appropriate.

While the rest of your post seemed very on point and helpful, I don't have 12 players. You may be thinking of someone else? (Pen, maybe, looking over other threads? Hopefully I didn't inadvertently steal some of the advice meant to be going his way.) Thanks for the responses, though, and I do think that it will probably be of use, as with pretty much all of what I'm picking up here.

Ha ha, sorry. Two similar threads. No, I meant this post for your thread, I just got confused about who had twelve players... 

Greetings!

KindaMeh, I have run Keep on the Borderlands for years. It really is a top-shelf starter module for a campaign, with lots of variety and also lots of built in flexibility. There is lots of room for you to add new NPC's, new allies, and even other creatures and monsters as well. The module, with some modification, can take your party up to 4th level, maybe even more, depending on how much you add to the environment.

I also love the moue because you can easily drop the module anywhere in your own campaign world.

Oh, and as for *rules*--don't worry about every little detail. Old school gaming is far more about "Rulings, NOT Rules"
That isn't to say that knowing the rules, applying them properly--and also making up your own rues!--isn't important, they are. You can always say "This is what I'm ruling on this now, it may likely change later". The higher priority though, is two-fold; FUN, and SPEED. Keep the action moving. Or if the party is roleplaying a party in the woods with elves, don't get hung up on the rules on dancing or seduction. Just think carefully, thoughtfully for a moment, make a decision, and move on with play. The game needs to keep flowing with action, roleplaying, and fun--not you or any of the players stopping for 5, 10, 15 minutes to look up some particular rule. Even stopping for that, can disrupt immersion, and cause the game momentum to take a hit.

So, keep focused on the main priorities.

This philosophy can take some time to fully embrace--it has largely been de-emphasized and actually worked against both in Official game books, and the hobby in general since 3E. Some could make some proto-arguments for some drama and rules creep going back to Dragonlance, then lateral-moving to Vampire, and such like, all essentially focusing more on narrative, story gaming, and comprehensive rules-lawyering than a more fast-moving, dice rolling, chomping game of action led by a DM coordinating the action spontaneously and authoritatively.

It is a very different mind set and philosophy. Again though, I encourage you to zealously embrace it like a roaring barbarian warrior! The game has always--or at least for 20 years now--become bogged down and slow, and eventually boring, because the game's traditional focus on speed, fun, action, and DM's foundation philosophy of "Rulings NOT Rules!" has been attacked or otherwise eroded and sent to the back 40.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The deadliness can be an issue.  There are also various effects where a character can get incapacitated but not dead for an entire session.  Not fun for the victim's player.  My preferred solution has always been to have each player go in with two characters.  That way if one gets killed/paralyzed/wraithed/turned to stone/banished to another plane/captured/imprisoned/polymorphed into a newt/ ... (you get the idea) ... then the player can just use the other character and can still play.  Splitting the party is generally a very bad idea, but sometimes it just has to be done, and if each player has a character in each group then no player gets sidelined for half the game.  If your players are new to roleplaying in general, I wouldn't do this - there's kind of a lot to get used to just running one character - but would implement it as soon as they're comfortable for the game.  For true newbies, I would have each roll up a couple of backups, and if a character gets killed then it's time to head back to the staging area to rest, regroup, and pick up the new guy,

I like Hommlet a lot as a home base, but the Moathouse is very deadly for level 1 if run as written. Maybe scatter some less deadly dungeons around, or do what I did and modify encounters a bit - eg I initially had the giant frogs ignore the PCs. I also included a friendly Cleric at the Welcome Wench along with all the untrustworthy NPCs, and Fulnok of Ferd became a reliable henchman IMC.

Update: Thanks again for the feedback. If it would matter, it looks like the actual final confirmed group for this game wound up being pretty small. Only 3-4 folks total, if that would matter. Still, plan on pressing ahead. Does this change things? Likewise, should I consider stuff like the challenge modules from 2e, since I hear those work for lower numbers of players at low level?

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 14, 2023, 03:11:40 PM
Update: Thanks again for the feedback. If it would matter, it looks like the actual final confirmed group for this game wound up being pretty small. Only 3-4 folks total, if that would matter. Still, plan on pressing ahead. Does this change things? Likewise, should I consider stuff like the challenge modules from 2e, since I hear those work for lower numbers of players at low level?

Four players is pretty normal.  If there's only two I would add some followers or run multiple PCs per player.  It's a lot easier to get a TPK with 2.  If someone goes down, you want at least two friends present, one to heal you or carry you out, and another to hold off the baddies while your friend is helping you.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 14, 2023, 04:00:23 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 14, 2023, 03:11:40 PM
Update: Thanks again for the feedback. If it would matter, it looks like the actual final confirmed group for this game wound up being pretty small. Only 3-4 folks total, if that would matter. Still, plan on pressing ahead. Does this change things? Likewise, should I consider stuff like the challenge modules from 2e, since I hear those work for lower numbers of players at low level?

Four players is pretty normal.  If there's only two I would add some followers or run multiple PCs per player.  It's a lot easier to get a TPK with 2.  If someone goes down, you want at least two friends present, one to heal you or carry you out, and another to hold off the baddies while your friend is helping you.

Sorry, should clarify. 3-4 people in the group counting me, 2-3 players. So that latter advice may well be relevant.

Quote from: KindaMeh link=topic=46124.msg1250540#msg1250540
Sorry, should clarify. 3-4 people in the group counting me, 2-3 players.

I ran a 1e game for 2-4 players for a long time. The party size was almost always 2x because they usually hired a few burly zero-level locals to fight with them, a porter or two and a torch bearer. After a few locals died, replacements started wanting more money up front and I think eventually no one would work with them until they moved to a new town. It was pretty funny! I think once a dead one's brother maybe tried to assassinate a PC in the bar while they were drunk? You can take it in some fun directions. One or two we advanced to level one fighters after a couple of badass 20s. They can also serve as PC replacements if desired.

Ado, Beedo and Cron were the first three they hired, lol. I think Cron advanced?

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 09, 2023, 10:13:59 PM
Go the full Gygax (all are from Gygax), I'm currently doing it for a 5E modified group.  Read all of the modules and find a way to link them.  I used Professor Dungeonmaster's take on Keep on the Borderlands as my baseline.

1st) Keep on the Borderlands levels 1-3. 
-evil clerics of Thazirdun are using evil red dust mined by kobolds and turned into a brew by goblins and used to enslave the orcs and gnolls who will be used to raid the Red Keep and spread Thazirdun's will.
-find a club on a competing group to kill the party, the club is an elemental weapon used in temple of elemental evil.

2nd) Village of Homlett Levels 3
-Clerics had a map of a new target Homlett
-Fight moat house and find out Lareth is serving some evil called Temple of Elmental Evil

3rd) Temple of Elemental Evil  Levels 1-10
-Do the elemental nodes.  They are fully built out in the goodman games 5E conversion, its honking huge and is for 5E but can be used for 1E.
-The stones in the nodes used to travel, when they flub and don't go to a node, they time travel back to the temple (ancient caves of old elementals, current before temple was cleared, far in the future its now filled with undead, let party know that they are travelling time.
-After the players kill Zugg, have the relevant gods show up and help to push Thazirdun away
-Put in some elemental weapons that are used to destroy the elemental stones, slightly cursed, but mostly good.  The curse can be entertaining.

4th) Against the Giants 11-12
-When the players leave the nodes, let them know they temple seems extremely old and unkempt.  Its an undead mad house and they are trying to flee from it. 
-When players get out, they see lights in the distance (Nulb).  The town of Nulb's inhabitants are now working in fields with Hobgoblin task masters giving them red porridge (red spice from earlier, mind altering drug used to enslave)
-Nulb is bigger with a wood fence and a hill giant troll mayor.  The players find out that the Giant Empire has taken over the entire area
-Players then go to Homlette and see the future keep was destroyed, the town is enslaved and the Hill Giants steading is there.
-Players then go through the module hit the teleport to the Frost and Fire giants.  They find out its Thazirdun worshipping Dark Elves behind all of this and are trying to bring back Thazirdun for power

5th) Descent into the Depths of the Earth and Vault of the Drow 13-14
-Gygax flubbed this one, read some youtube videos to fix this one.
-Do NOT run that megacavern.  Break it up into a couple of encounters.  That lich should be special.  Maybe he's down there trying to extend his life because he fucked up his lichdom or maybe a halfling named golum stole his phylactory and is become an undead abomination and he's weakening and need the party to find it for him and will give them treasure.
-The KuoToa temple is a bit boring, read up on the tokens to be a pilgrim.  Perhaps have a party member be the high honor member being fed and treated as a god.  And the Kuo Toa are treating him as a god seed to become the new demi-god for them.
-Put in a Duegar Keep maybe acting as a toll check point OR it could be a neutral area with the duergar running a merchant area where all underdark races can trade its neutral.  Anyone breaking the law is kiilled
-The vault of the drow is weak.  read up on Drow and figure out some plots.  Maybe the party met a merchant clan loyal to lloth and they want to aid the party and send them against the house following Thazirdun to steal something (plot twist, the merchant house if following thazirdun and want to kill the other house to use their blood to summon thazurdon).
-Ultimately the players realize that lloth is the last demon standing and she intends to consume their world so they go to the Demonwebs to stop her.

6th) Queen of the Demonweb Pits 15
-Don Sotherland (artist of 1E cover books - not a module designer) took Gygax's notes and put out the module.  The encounters aren't great.  Make some new ones.
-There are doors to other planes not explained, have some adventures ready.
-Try Gary Gygax's Hall of Many Panes to fill out the various planes if you want to put them in.  I was really only planning on running the module where the players get transformed into nuts being chased by squirrels, I haven't read it yet, but saw a review mentioning it.
-Put in a lot more demons, and less trolls.  When trolls are present give them cool mutations.  Perhaps troll demon hybrids.
-The spider robot isnt' for everyone.  Dungeon Delver I believe on dragonfoot put out a small cavern that you could try or simply make a better ruling area for lloth to consume.

Decent quest path, all Gygax based, you'll have to do a bit of thinking ahead because most of these have little to no thought in linkage, or goals, its a funhouse.  That being said, you can read on the net to get some ideas.

All great recomendation is this thread, but this one is something I need to try 

Linking classic mods into an adventure path could be fun, just make sure everyone's on board and isn't expecting a sandboxier feel.

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 09, 2023, 08:28:57 PM
1. Does anybody have any recommendations or ideas on what might be a good module or approach to try? Likewise, I'm not always the best DM without prep, particularly of the published type, so tips and tricks are always appreciated. (This is also my first real foray into what I think may count as OSR gaming beyond just reading about different systems/supplements and trying to convince people to try it, so...)

I think B2 is easily one of the best modules period, without qualifications. It's not a lot of text to read, but it can easily provide months worth of weekly play. But on top of that, I think it is a good, representative taste of old-school play.

Quote2. Also, between UA, OA, and the survival guides, what have you allowed in your own campaigns, and what seems reasonable/gamebreaking supplements-wise?

I don't like UA or OA. The survival guides are okay for bringing some extra ambiance. It's not about game-breaking in a balance sense. The uber power classes do have counterbalancing considerations. The problem is, I don't think they're great for group play. Hard to have a magic-user in a party with a barbarian that hates magic. Or a cavalier who's always charging into every battle, committing the entire party to fights they don't want to pick. Or drow elves who don't like the sun but the rest of the group wants to do adventuring outside of a dungeon.

Quote3. As a separate question, which of those and what story approaches are most in the style of "traditional" 1e AD&D as it might have been played back in the day?

So we really didn't need a "story" per se. I remember when I was a kid. I grew up in a city, but back then before everything became over developed, there were still plenty of patches of wooded areas. Me and my friends didn't need any reason at all to go exploring in the woods. It's like, woods, cool. Let's go explore. And I think that may have translated to how we played D&D, as well. Oh, there's caves? Cool. Let's go explore.

Nowadays, it's like people don't go out unless they can hop on line and find out what's going on. Everything is more purpose-driven, and people have lost all sense of exploration. Even gamers who were there back in the day seem to have lost it. I could get together with the same cats I gamed with back in the day, and it would be like pulling teeth. They may not care at all about the improvisational theater aspect of RPGs, but are still essentially asking, "Excuse me, what's my motivation here?"

What it took for me to re-discover old school exploration is sitting down to a solo adventure using 1E DMG Appendix A. Go through it a few times (a few more times after you've gotten the hang of the system). Give yourself a 4th level guy if you have to to not get killed right away. Take note of how you feel as you're going through it, especially during those times when the dice aren't turning up a whole lot of monsters or traps or treasure. When you start to find those dead zones of low content density more fun than fighting stuff, when you find yourself curious about what's around the next corner, when you're looking at your map so far and asking yourself "What is this place?" and when you actually start to see something that makes some sense emerge, that's when you'll understand old school exploration.

Quote4. Are there any unspoken rules or houserules that were common back then that folks have used and  would firmly recommend?

Other than the DM is god, not really. Just like the $500 on Free Parking in monopoly was not as universal as some blogger tried to make it out to be just to make a greater point about something else. You're probably going to hear people that insist there were. But I don't think there really was. It's not that people didn't use house rules. I just don't think any of them were all that universal.

Quote5. Should I worry about authenticity more in rules or in style if they say they want to try 1e AD&D, and I have said I'll try to look into giving them an OSR-esque experience?

One thing about authentic old school that I think isn't talked about enough or appreciated enough is the fact that we couldn't just hop on line and order every last book we wanted or every last book to complete our collections. Most groups had to play with what books we could find. When I first started playing AD&D, I didn't even have a Monster Manual, but I had a Fiend Folio. Think of what that means for the standard/stock monsters of the game world. Understand how diverse the authentic experience is.

For the most part, though, everyone did have the core books, PHB, DMG, and MM. Those were the books most groups had the most in common. And so I regard just those three books as being real AD&D, with everything else being icing on the cake. You want an authentic experience? Limit yourself to those three. Then add, at random, 1 or 2 of the hardbacks or World of Greyhawk box set, and work with what you've got. If your random selection is Manual of the Planes, that's going to be a very different campaign from if you randomly add Dragonlance Adventures.

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 09, 2023, 08:28:57 PMSo, Happy Easter! I recently picked up some 1e AD&D materials. Finally got some folks interested in maybe trying some old school (?) gaming with said set of rules just to try it out, so I sprung for the edition they said they were curious about.

Very nice!  Hopefully you and your players have a lot of fun with it.  Some quick questions back to you about your group:

1. How experienced are they at RPGs and D&D in general, and with old-school sensibilities?
2. What kinds of game play do they like?---combat, puzzles, exploration, NPC interaction, etc.?
3. What kinds of adventure sites do they like?---dungeons, wilderness (land vs. sea), planar, urban, etc.?

FYI, if you and/or your players are looking for 1e AD&D and don't want to spend a lot, you can also download OSRIC for free at https://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/ and you can order nice hardcovers from Black Blade Publishing (that's me and my business partner) or from Lulu (in particular you are outside of North America, since shipping is cheaper for Lulu via local printing in the EU). 

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 09, 2023, 08:28:57 PM
1. Does anybody have any recommendations or ideas on what might be a good module or approach to try? Likewise, I'm not always the best DM without prep, particularly of the published type, so tips and tricks are always appreciated. (This is also my first real foray into what I think may count as OSR gaming beyond just reading about different systems/supplements and trying to convince people to try it, so...)

Depending on your answers above, the classic AD&D starter modules are, in my order of preference:  T1, DMG Monastery Sample Dungeon (but you'll need to key most of it yourself), L1, B1, N1, B4, B5, B2.  The B modules are technically not AD&D (they're B/X Basic, mostly), although B1 was placed in the World of Greyhawk and early printings had some AD&D notes in them too, as I recall.  T1 is, however, as Simon mentioned, deadly, especially for new players to old-school (and L1 may be a bit too wide-open).  B1 is likely a better start in that case. 

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 09, 2023, 08:28:57 PM2. Also, between UA, OA, and the survival guides, what have you allowed in your own campaigns, and what seems reasonable/gamebreaking supplements-wise?

I disallow weapon specialization from UA for sure (although I've been toying with allowing it beginning at Level 7, for just fighters---not rangers, paladins, cavaliers, et al).  I don't allow MUs to learn named spells without a connection to the creator, and I don't allow a lot of the UA spells without some form of special access earned through play.  I'd skip everything other than the PHB, DMG, and MM1 to start (this also aligns with the OSRIC rulebook contents, FYI, in case that's of interest). 

Anthony Huso also wrote a nice synopsis for new players on his blog, see https://www.thebluebard.com/post/running-your-first-ad-d-campaign   It's long, but a good intro to DMing AD&D.

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 09, 2023, 08:28:57 PM3. As a separate question, which of those and what story approaches are most in the style of "traditional" 1e AD&D as it might have been played back in the day?

I'm not following this Q, sorry. 

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 09, 2023, 08:28:57 PM4. Are there any unspoken rules or houserules that were common back then that folks have used and  would firmly recommend?

Many houserules.  I think it's best to start out playing mostly by the book, then to learn what kinds of house rules suit you and your players based on your games and how they go. 

That said, many of AD&D's sub-systems are listed as optional, including all non-core/sub-classes, Weapons vs. AC, material spell components, encumbrance, etc.   The problem is, that each of the systems do add value to the game, but it's hard to understand the value if you handwave them away at the beginning without giving them a fair shake of the dice. 

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 09, 2023, 08:28:57 PM5. Should I worry about authenticity more in rules or in style if they say they want to try 1e AD&D, and I have said I'll try to look into giving them an OSR-esque experience?

I think that if you're playing the game you want to play, and you're all having fun, then you're good to go.  Authenticity to what make your games fun at your table is what you want to focus on. 

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 11, 2023, 07:58:39 PMIt sounds like it's important to acknowledge player abilities and choices outside of just the x percent to whatever, so I'll do what I can to give reasonable outcomes to their decisions, as best I can. As well as trying to aim for player engagement through some of the methods y'all had suggested.

Some good player advice appears in the back of the PHB ("Successful Adventures") and in Matt Finch's articles, "Quick Primer for Old-School Gaming" (free at https://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/ebook/product-3159558.html?page=1&pageSize=4 and helpful for getting 3.x+ edition players into a 1e mindset), as well as his even-better "Megadungeon Tactics: Mission-Based Adventuring" from Knockspell #4 at https://grodog.blogspot.com/2017/05/knockspell-magazine-master-index.html#issue4

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 11, 2023, 07:58:39 PMDeadliness being acknowledged, I may suggest folks have rolled up  backup characters or hirelings? Thoughts on that?

With just 2-3 players (plus you DMing), I think having each player create two primary PCs and 1-2 backup PCs is a good idea.  That way they can try out a variety of races and classes, some demi-humans with multi-classing, some humans single-classed, etc.

Quote from: KindaMeh on April 11, 2023, 07:58:39 PMAlso, it sounds like Keep on the Borderlands, Secret of Saltmarsh, and Hommlet are all strong contenders for a starting module. I'm currently on the fence as to which. What do you think has the best chance of getting the players hooked on 1e? Do you think (depending on the module in question) I should make any key changes?

Likewise, do you think it would make sense to roll up dungeon additions if that's a big part of how the system traditionally plays and the like?

You can certainly customize the modules, in particular to whatever local setting/flavor you want to use for the game, and toward your players tastes/preferences (if they like riddles/puzzles, you can add more, etc.). 

I hope some of that helps

Allan.