Quote from: RPGPunditMy point is that I really don't think that there's anything better in JUST doing something that screws up the character on the level of attributes, when you could do something that has a more obvious physical/mental effect for roleplaying purposes AND screws up your attributes in some way.  It was the distinct lack of flavour that bugged me.

RPGPundit

I get ya. The idea reminds me of void magic from sovereign stone, but the execution needs some jazzing up for sure. I'm hesitant to add too blatant of effects though... I want my corrupted evil villians to be able to pose as ordinary folks.... makes it easier to totally screw the goody-two-shoes over.

Quote from: SigmundI get ya. The idea reminds me of void magic from sovereign stone, but the execution needs some jazzing up for sure. I'm hesitant to add too blatant of effects though... I want my corrupted evil villians to be able to pose as ordinary folks.... makes it easier to totally screw the goody-two-shoes over.

:devil: I like the way you think Sigmond... long cloaks/robes help a lot as well.

Well as it is, I don't think the current Blue Rose rules allow for much subterfuge either... if the Magic Deer's Venison Guard want to find people who've been using sorcery, they just have to round up anyone who's limping or coughing, all the cripples, etc...

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWell as it is, I don't think the current Blue Rose rules allow for much subterfuge either... if the Magic Deer's Venison Guard want to find people who've been using sorcery, they just have to round up anyone who's limping or coughing, all the cripples, etc...

I believe this was corrected already.  The stat penalties only apply if you don't embrace the corruption.  Once you do, then you have no penalties, and your corruption points are substituted for your primary stat in casting sorcerous Arcana.  The one telltale sign of embracing corruption is that you cannot be healed by the normal Cure arcana by a non-corrupt healer.  So, in principle they could check for sorcerers by cutting them and curing them (though there's some room for deception there if the sorcerer has Cure and cures himself at the same time).  

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/srd/srd_true_romantic/Arcana.html#Chapter%204:%20Arcana%20-%20Sorcery:%20The%20Shadow%20Art

The main broken part of the system is that it's easy to become super-powerful by accumulating tons of Corruption points.  This is pretty easily fixed by adding your current Corruption to your Fortitude save.  This forces sorcerers to delve into even more heinous deeds to increase their Corruption score.

Quote from: RPGPunditWell as it is, I don't think the current Blue Rose rules allow for much subterfuge either... if the Magic Deer's Venison Guard want to find people who've been using sorcery, they just have to round up anyone who's limping or coughing, all the cripples, etc...

RPGPundit

Well, we've already said to actually have fun in the setting we'd have to drop the deer and his little flower stick. Give Aldis a normal fallible government, with real fallible human beings who don't have to worry about some omnipotent furry looking over their shoulder. Drop the Dolphin, Horsey, and Kitty PCs. Insert more darkfiends, more undead, more corruption-loving sorcerers. All of this is pure flavor, but the nature of the darkfiends and the tendancy for any corrupt people to rise as undead and plague the living makes what's left pure fantasy horror gold. So screw the magic deer... bring on the darkness.

Quote from: jhkimThis forces sorcerers to delve into even more heinous deeds to increase their Corruption score.

Even if the normal corruption rules weren't broken, this alone would be more than reason enough to institute this little revision :evillaugh:

Mayhem rules.  :maniac:

Quote from: jhkimThe one telltale sign of embracing corruption is that you cannot be healed by the normal Cure arcana by a non-corrupt healer.  So, in principle they could check for sorcerers by cutting them and curing them (though there's some room for deception there if the sorcerer has Cure and cures himself at the same time).  

I'd be tempted to rule that for a light-aligned individual, this procedure might trigger a corruption check.... causing harm to a possibly innocent being is at best a twilight act, if not outright shadow. Beautiful isn't it?

:devil:

Quote from: SigmundI'd be tempted to rule that for a light-aligned individual, this procedure might trigger a corruption check.... causing harm to a possibly innocent being is at best a twilight act, if not outright shadow. Beautiful isn't it?

:devil:

I have little patience for GMs who adopt edge interpretations of Alignment to try to screw over players, but more importantly you clearly don't understand Corruption: Corruption doesn't come from evil, it comes from magical evil.  You only gain Corruption if you:

1. Use certain magic that is inherently corrupt.
2. Use magic to perform evil.
3. Perform an evil act in a location tainted by supernatural evil, or when touching an object tainted by supernatural evil.

Quote from: hgjsI have little patience for GMs who adopt edge interpretations of Alignment to try to screw over players,

IMHO it's not screwing them over if they knew the GM's take on the rules at the start of the game, but I can see your point.  

Quote from: hgjsYou only gain Corruption if you:

1. Use certain magic that is inherently corrupt.

Not owning a copy of BR I'll ask, what kinds of magic are inherently corrupt offhand?

Quote from: cnath.rmNot owning a copy of BR I'll ask, what kinds of magic are inherently corrupt offhand?

Here is a list of corrupt spells:

Dominate, Dominate Beast, Drain Vitality, Flesh Shaping, Mind Probe, Pain, Psychic Blast, Sorcerer's Grasp (à la Darth Vader).

Here is a list of spells that have both corrupt and non-corrupt versions:

Heart Shaping: Corrupt except when used to produce positive emotions.
Mind Shaping: Corrupt if used for personal gain or to cause harm.
Suggestion: Corrupt if used to cause deliberate harm.

In general, spells that can only be used to harm people are corrupt.  There are non-corrupt spells capable of being used offensively, but they also have other uses (e.g. Fire Shaping).  Most mind-influencing spells are corrupt except for when used for benign purposes, and more severe forms of mind control are always corrupt.

So, controlling someone for a short time is bad, but brainwashing them is okay, as long as he's a better person afterwards? Bezoomny, I'd say...

Quote from: hgjsI have little patience for GMs who adopt edge interpretations of Alignment to try to screw over players, but more importantly you clearly don't understand Corruption: Corruption doesn't come from evil, it comes from magical evil.  You only gain Corruption if you:

1. Use certain magic that is inherently corrupt.
2. Use magic to perform evil.
3. Perform an evil act in a location tainted by supernatural evil, or when touching an object tainted by supernatural evil.

I have little patience for people who make snap judgements about other people based on messageboard posts. Just a few points:

1) I was actually using a little bit of tongue-in-cheek. If this wasn't clear enough for you, then I apologise for the misunderstanding and will try to make any touch of humor I attempt in the future more identifiable.

2) I don't adopt any interpretations of anything in order to "screw over" my players. I interpret rules and settings in way that allows me to most effectively, for me, use them to create obstacles and conflicts that the players can avoid/overcome in order to be entertained and advance the story. The interpretations vary according to my player's goals combined with the genre of the game. What I'm working on with Blue Rose/Aldis is not Romantic Fantasy, since IMO it fails miserably at that. I have changed it to fantasy horror, so my interpretations are certainly going to include rules changes. That said, see point 3.

3) In the Blue Rose rule book it states the following:

Corruption
The danger of sorcery is how it opens the wielder up to Corruption. Other heinous acts can cause Corruption as well, but sorcery is perhaps the easiest, and most seductive, path into Shadow.

4) The rules don't mention "evil" places and items, it mentions "corrupt" places and items. The distinction is that items and places can become corrupt by people aren't corrupt or evil themselves. Even Light aligned people can corrupt a thing through misguided acts motivated by misinformed intentions, as I see it.

4) Given #4, I would submit that if I wanted forcing people to endure being cut open, then healed simply to prove their innocence  to be a shadow-aligned action, then the place where it's done could develop corrupting properties over time.

Yes, it's a stretch, but then it was meant to be an exageration from the beginning anyway. So if this bothers you then feel free to pass on any game I might run in the future and forgive me if I'm no too upset about it.

Quote from: SigmundI have little patience for people who make snap judgements about other people based on messageboard posts. Just a few points:

1) I was actually using a little bit of tongue-in-cheek. If this wasn't clear enough for you, then I apologise for the misunderstanding and will try to make any touch of humor I attempt in the future more identifiable.

2) I don't adopt any interpretations of anything in order to "screw over" my players. I interpret rules and settings in way that allows me to most effectively, for me, use them to create obstacles and conflicts that the players can avoid/overcome in order to be entertained and advance the story. The interpretations vary according to my player's goals combined with the genre of the game. What I'm working on with Blue Rose/Aldis is not Romantic Fantasy, since IMO it fails miserably at that. I have changed it to fantasy horror, so my interpretations are certainly going to include rules changes. That said, see point 3.

3) In the Blue Rose rule book it states the following:

Corruption
The danger of sorcery is how it opens the wielder up to Corruption. Other heinous acts can cause Corruption as well, but sorcery is perhaps the easiest, and most seductive, path into Shadow.

4) The rules don't mention "evil" places and items, it mentions "corrupt" places and items. The distinction is that items and places can become corrupt by people aren't corrupt or evil themselves. Even Light aligned people can corrupt a thing through misguided acts motivated by misinformed intentions, as I see it.

4) Given #4, I would submit that if I wanted forcing people to endure being cut open, then healed simply to prove their innocence  to be a shadow-aligned action, then the place where it's done could develop corrupting properties over time.

Yes, it's a stretch, but then it was meant to be an exageration from the beginning anyway. So if this bothers you then feel free to pass on any game I might run in the future and forgive me if I'm no too upset about it.

You've adapted the game for a different use?  More power to you.  That said, in response to your statements about the game itself:

Yes, "other heinous acts" can give you corruption points -- if performed in a tainted location or when touching a tainted item.  That is explained in the sentence immediately following your quotation:

"Characters can become corrupt in two ways: by using  sorcery and by performing an act of Shadow nature in a corrupt place or while in contact with a corrupt item."

I feel that the word choice here is important: it's performing Shadow-aligned acts that allows you to be tainted.  Although Light-aligned people can perform Shadow-aligned actions, the difference between Light and Shadow is motivation.

Now, aside from the question of whether this action is Shadow-aligned, can performing Shadow-aligned actions repeatedly in the same place cause it to become tainted by Corruption?  The book only contains two sentences on how places become Corrupt: "Places can become tainted with Corruption over time.  This is particularly true of former strongholds of the Sorcerer Kings, the lairs of Shadow cults, and similar locales."  I will admit that this leaves it open to interpretation whether only Corruption-generating acts can make a place "tainted with Corruption," or if any Shadow-aligned acts can do this -- but that was never part of my criticism.

Quote from: hgjsYou've adapted the game for a different use?  More power to you.  That said, in response to your statements about the game itself:

Yes, "other heinous acts" can give you corruption points -- if performed in a tainted location or when touching a tainted item.  That is explained in the sentence immediately following your quotation:

"Characters can become corrupt in two ways: by using  sorcery and by performing an act of Shadow nature in a corrupt place or while in contact with a corrupt item."

I feel that the word choice here is important: it's performing Shadow-aligned acts that allows you to be tainted.  Although Light-aligned people can perform Shadow-aligned actions, the difference between Light and Shadow is motivation.

Just in case you missed it before... the first of my posts you quoted was meant to be an exageration. So you judged that I had little understanding of Corruption based an an exageration on my part, without taking into account how I had stated in a previous post that I was using the game for a different purpose than for which it was originally intended, and then used slightly inaccurate statements to try and prove your point. Just so we know where I'm coming from. Moving on...

Despite the next subsection mentioning items and places, if I wish to interpret the first statement in the Corruption section of Blue Rose as meaning any other heinous acts I want to label as such, then I can in my game (doesn't mean I do). Moving on...

Shadow-aligned actions can mean any that result from a character following their shadow natures. Blue Rose defines the difference between light and shadow as follows: "All intelligent creatures make moral choices, to  live according to their better nature or to give in to immoral impulses." It goes on to define "better nature" as a character's light nature, and "immoral impulses" as a character's shadow nature. Therefore, when even a light-aligned character is giving in to their shadow nature, they are performing shadow-aligned actions. Some shadow natures listed in Blue Rose that might result in such a program of cutting open people just to try to protect oneself follow: Reactionary, Overzealous, Obsessive, Impatient, Fearful, Intolerant, Hasty, Suspicious.

QuoteNow, aside from the question of whether this action is Shadow-aligned, can performing Shadow-aligned actions repeatedly in the same place cause it to become tainted by Corruption?  The book only contains two sentences on how places become Corrupt: "Places can become tainted with Corruption over time.  This is particularly true of former strongholds of the Sorcerer Kings, the lairs of Shadow cults, and similar locales."  I will admit that this leaves it open to interpretation whether only Corruption-generating acts can make a place "tainted with Corruption," or if any Shadow-aligned acts can do this -- but that was never part of my criticism.

And again I'd like to point out that regardless of what the game originally intends, in the context of Aldis being used in a fantasy horror genre game instead of a romantic fantasy genre game, having a place used for such purposes would be very in keeping with the theme... like the assylum for the criminally insane becoming a place of horror and corruption. The original intent of the place is to heal, but it fits the story to turn it into a place of horror and death... it adds atmosphere.

I concede that if I were to run Blue Rose as romantic fantasy, I would not make such an action corruption inducing as the tone and theme of the game would be different. However, IMC the higher-ups would never approve such a program. Plus, once again, exageration... You may critisize my post as humor all ya want, but to try and argue rules with me about an exageration seems kinda silly, so I'm going to stop the silliness now. If you'd like to continue along this vein, start a new thread about how and why different GMs assign corruption in their Blue Rose games and I'll post to it.

Quote from: SigmundShadow-aligned actions can mean any that result from a character following their shadow natures. Blue Rose defines the difference between light and shadow as follows: "All intelligent creatures make moral choices, to  live according to their better nature or to give in to immoral impulses." It goes on to define "better nature" as a character's light nature, and "immoral impulses" as a character's shadow nature. Therefore, when even a light-aligned character is giving in to their shadow nature, they are performing shadow-aligned actions.

In other words, it is exactly what I said.

QuoteAnd again I'd like to point out that regardless of what the game originally intends, in the context of Aldis being used in a fantasy horror genre game instead of a romantic fantasy genre game

Yeah, yeah.  You're running a variant.  I get it.