Hi everyone,
I was really inspired by the recent thread in damage reduction, and I wanted to know if anyone knew the history of the troll Regeneration ability. From what I recall in folklore and Tolkein, trolls never regenerated. That's seems like a Gygax idea. Is it?
I've always enjoyed regeneration as a mechanuc, either in MTG or RPG's. The idea that something is basically impossible to kill except with extreme measures really captures my imagination. Does anyone else like troll Regeneration? I've put it into alomost every iteration of my homebrew RPG.
Sometimes I even make regenerating necros.
Let's talk about the glorious and never ending history of troll Regeneration!!!
Quote from: Ashakyre;938743Hi everyone,
I was really inspired by the recent thread in damage reduction, and I wanted to know if anyone knew the history of the troll Regeneration ability. From what I recall in folklore and Tolkein, trolls never regenerated. That's seems like a Gygax idea. Is it?
I've always enjoyed regeneration as a mechanuc, either in MTG or RPG's. The idea that something is basically impossible to kill except with extreme measures really captures my imagination. Does anyone else like troll Regeneration? I've put it into alomost every iteration of my homebrew RPG.
Sometimes I even make regenerating necros.
Let's talk about the glorious and never ending history of troll Regeneration!!!
The D&D troll is from Poul Anderson's novel
Three Hearts and Three Lions. The Paladin class is pretty much taken verbatim from that novel as well.
Jesus wept.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938771Jesus wept.
I dont think thats how trolls started regenerating? :confused: ( :D )
Closest in mythology is an ogress called Dzunukwa. She regenerated from any damage except fire. But it took ALOT of fire to finally kill her. The description is vaugly like the D&D troll. Probably a coincidence?
I think regeneration is both interesting and difficult to do in a way that satisfies my desire for things to make sense and also withstand clever players. Trolls were an early example for me where I saw people getting into discussions such as:
A: "What happens if you cut a troll up into tiny pieces and separate them over great distances? ... bury the pieces? ... keep cutting them up as they regenerate?"
B: "Well the rules say they keep gaining hit points, so I guess even if there's only one little toe left, it keeps regrowing forever at that rate..."
So I tend to want to detail the mechanics, and prefer them making sense and seeming plausible to being difficult to overcome. The result has been that my trolls almost always die and only really enjoy a brief amount of extra toughness due to healing during combat.
My reading of regeneration was that the center mass was what regenerated and stuff that was cut off didnt. What happened to that cut off stuff. No clue! Too busy running away cause we used up our supplies killing the last two!
Mainly based on the comments in the books about the limb regrowing but no mention of the lost limb growing a new body. So more like a Geko than a planarian or worm. And worms cant double if not cut at specific points.
In my campaign, I have an evil wizard who sells Troll Jerky, since it's essentially a self-replenishing form of meat.
Stolen from the hilarious movie TerrorVision, where there is a survivalist grandfather who does the same thing with lizards.
Hmm, actually thanks to this thread, I'm starting to think of some interesting troll variations and situations where there could be some interesting play around them, but in general, my players have always managed to hack anything that might be a troll to bits with weapons and then burn the remains. Me being an impartial GM tends not to lead to situations where they have much difficulty doing that unless the combat itself is difficult - as with many situations in my games, the tactical situation tends to be the main deciding factor, rather than a particular monster ability.
Some versions of D&D introduce variations, mutations that occur from regenerating a limb.
Like two arms grow instead of one. Or the new head that grows is smarter.
Also though unstated is that trolls eat alot and that is probably to sustain that regeneration. You could probably starve a troll to death.
In my olwn RPG way back Trolls were one of the variations of lizard men which included Trogs and kobolds. Trolls there could regrow limbs. But not loss of the head or catastrophic damage like being cut in half. But they could regrow or heal relatively fast as long as they had a food source.
In an old AD&D campaign we had one DM who played trolls as corrupt tre-ents. Which explained why they could regrow a head since the brain, such as it was, wasnt housed there, and why they were killable by fire.
Pre-3e D&D left things pretty wide open to make of monsters whatever you wanted. And people did as evidinced by the singing troll and other oddities.
Seems like trolls would be well advised to avoid all situations where they can't escape somehow if in danger of losing a fight. Perhaps they could favor places with cliffs or rivers because if they start to be defeated, they could cast themselves off a cliff or into a river and be relatively sure of eventual survival, unlike what tends to happen if they're just lying on the floor with a bunch of humans with a source of fire.
Even in legends of trolls and ogres the trick is sometimes in outsmarting them.
D&D trolls tend to be depicted as really stupid. Usually with less of a society than ogres who tend to be depicted none too bright either.
Theres been instances where they will try to flee to water. But more often they jump the PCs well away from anything that can save them. Though check out the D&D illustration of the troll fleeing from the fighter.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938771Jesus wept.
"Dad, what was the name of that band Paul McCartney was in before Wings?"Quote from: Omega;938952Closest in mythology is an ogress called Dzunukwa. She regenerated from any damage except fire. But it took ALOT of fire to finally kill her. The description is vaugly like the D&D troll. Probably a coincidence?
Sounds like Gullveig from Norse mythology. Anyway, there are a bunch of creatures from old stories who can't be hurt by manmade weapons, or will regenerate if they are -up to and including the gods themselves. Prometheus' liver grows back no matter how much a giant eagle eats it. Chronos has to use a blade made of "adamant" to castrate Ouranos, and Perseus needs a similar blade to behead Medusa.
Quote from: Omega;939374Even in legends of trolls and ogres the trick is sometimes in outsmarting them.
D&D trolls tend to be depicted as really stupid. Usually with less of a society than ogres who tend to be depicted none too bright either.
Theres been instances where they will try to flee to water. But more often they jump the PCs well away from anything that can save them. Though check out the D&D illustration of the troll fleeing from the fighter.
Hop-O-My-Thumb tricked an ogre into slitting the throats of his own daughters:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]874[/ATTACH]
Quote from: elfdart;956105"dad, what was the name of that band paul mccartney was in before wings?"
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! I'm old!
QuoteThe D&D troll is from Poul Anderson's novel Three Hearts and Three Lions. The Paladin class is pretty much taken verbatim from that novel as well.
Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!
I'm glad to see this thread recusitate itself.
Quote from: Skarg;939362Perhaps they could favor places with cliffs or rivers because if they start to be defeated, they could cast themselves off a cliff or into a river and be relatively sure of eventual survival, unlike what tends to happen if they're just lying on the floor with a bunch of humans with a source of fire.
That's why many of them live under bridges.
Quote from: Skarg;939104I think regeneration is both interesting and difficult to do in a way that satisfies my desire for things to make sense and also withstand clever players. Trolls were an early example for me where I saw people getting into discussions such as:
A: "What happens if you cut a troll up into tiny pieces and separate them over great distances? ... bury the pieces? ... keep cutting them up as they regenerate?"
B: "Well the rules say they keep gaining hit points, so I guess even if there's only one little toe left, it keeps regrowing forever at that rate..."
So I tend to want to detail the mechanics, and prefer them making sense and seeming plausible to being difficult to overcome. The result has been that my trolls almost always die and only really enjoy a brief amount of extra toughness due to healing during combat.
In our DCC game, the Referee had a giant who was afraid of the sun and regenerated, but fire didn't prevent that. It turned out that he was regenerating from the heart out, so when we pulled the nearly undestructible heart out, the body stopped being a problem.
Then we boiled it in a big bucket until the sun rose, periodically cutting off the excess growing meat. Our priestess ate it, and since she was serving a Chtulhoid anyway, nobody was even mightily surprised:D!
And then the sun rose and destroyed the heart.
In other campaigns it might not be the heart, or all parts might be regenerating, but all such creatures should have a weakness;).
Quote from: Ashakyre;956134I'm glad to see this thread recusitate itself.
It regenerated ...
Quote from: soltakss;956140It regenerated ...
(http://www.geeksofdoom.com/GoD/img/2015/11/troll-blu-ray-movie-review-530x288.jpg)
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938771Jesus wept.
Someone's been playing in a VR machine too long
[video=youtube;z4FGzE4endQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4FGzE4endQ[/youtube]
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938771Jesus wept.
What? It's no longer the hobby you knew, how is this surprising?
Quote from: Elfdart;956105"Dad, what was the name of that band Paul McCartney was in before Wings?"
Dad, What's "Wings"?
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;956185Dad, What's "Wings"?
It was that sitcom with Monk and The Sandman, right?
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956126Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! I'm old!
I think I officially hit Old Fart status sometime last year as I did a double-take when one of the young punks at work referred to Kate Winslet as a MILF.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;956188It was that sitcom with Monk and The Sandman, right?
Must have been. ;)
Isn't troll regeneration when someone gets banned from The Big Purple and creates an account at TheRPGSite?
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;956472Isn't troll regeneration when someone gets banned from The Big Purple and creates an account at TheRPGSite?
Heh, you're like one post away from a permaban over there yourself.
Quote from: CRKrueger;956473Heh, you're like one post away from a permaban over there yourself.
I've learned a few things over at The Big Purple:
* don't post anything remotely related to ZWEIHÄNDER in any forum - even if other people are asking me about it (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?787145-Sell-Me-Unsell-Me-Zweihander-Kickstarter);
* don't post anything remotely related to ZWEIHÄNDER outside of the Hype Machine, despite having the
largest amount of views (https://forum.rpg.net/forumdisplay.php?9-The-Glamorous-Unrestrained-Hype-Machine&sort=views&order=desc) and replies (https://forum.rpg.net/forumdisplay.php?9-The-Glamorous-Unrestrained-Hype-Machine&sort=replycount&order=desc) ever made at RPG.net;
* don't post April Fool's jokes (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?801054-Games-Workshop-amp-the-makers-of-ZWEIH%C4NDER-Grim-amp-Perilous-RPG-partners-for-AGE-OF-SIGMAR-The-RPG);
* don't post, period (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?801078-Infraction-for-COREhammer-7)-Three-Week-Ban).
Well, this thread went sideways fast. :p
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;956472Isn't troll regeneration when someone gets banned from The Big Purple and creates an account at TheRPGSite?
I think it is when someone posts, their posts come back covered in blood (red text), and they still aren't banned. ;)
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;956483I've learned a few things over at The Big Purple:
* don't post, period (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?801078-Infraction-for-COREhammer-7)-Three-Week-Ban).
You're starting to catch on! ;)
As far as the OP goes: Traditional trolls are big and ugly. Andersen added regeneration and stupidity. Tolkien added susceptibility to sunlight. Gloranthan trolls are closer to orcs: Big, smart & crafty, and nocturnal. Though walktapi are regenerative, and someone used the miniature for "Octatrolls" is his ancient D&D campaign.
If I remember my Norse mythology correctly (and I freely admit I may not), I believe that Trolls were a form of Giant or Giant-kin. I think they were on the short end of the Giant spectrum, like being 9-10 feet tall, as opposed to 12-ish?
Here's some basic info worth checking out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll
IIRC, troll regeneration is a Gygaxian invention.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;956518If I remember my Norse mythology correctly (and I freely admit I may not), I believe that Trolls were a form of Giant or Giant-kin. I think they were on the short end of the Giant spectrum, like being 9-10 feet tall, as opposed to 12-ish?
Basically D&D gets it's giant types from Norse Mythology. There were Frost, Fire, Sea, Wind, Clay/Earth, and Mountain Giants at least, maybe more. The Rune Thurs is in many of their names like Hrimthursar (rime giants, ice giants or frost giants). All the giants generally are called Jotnar. Thurs is the root of the term Troll. So originally, Troll could have been a general term for giant and is used for all kinds of beings in the mythology.
Over time, Troll began to be more of an earth type giant, especially those with nature magic powers. This probably has to do with Christianization as the Pagans were slowly demonized.
So eventually, yeah, Trolls became a form of lesser giant, but earlier, the term was all over the place.
Quote from: Spinachcat;956527Here's some basic info worth checking out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll
IIRC, troll regeneration is a Gygaxian invention.
Well, Poul Anderson invention, like mentioned above.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;956484Well, this thread went sideways fast. :p
Or did it?
Quote from: CRKrueger;956530Basically D&D gets it's giant types from Norse Mythology. There were Frost, Fire, Sea, Wind, Clay/Earth, and Mountain Giants at least, maybe more. The Rune Thurs is in many of their names like Hrimthursar (rime giants, ice giants or frost giants). All the giants generally are called Jotnar. Thurs is the root of the term Troll. So originally, Troll could have been a general term for giant and is used for all kinds of beings in the mythology.
Over time, Troll began to be more of an earth type giant, especially those with nature magic powers. This probably has to do with Christianization as the Pagans were slowly demonized.
So eventually, yeah, Trolls became a form of lesser giant, but earlier, the term was all over the place.
Ah, good to know. My knowledge came from memory of some old Scandinavian poems and a retranslation of Beowulf, which may or may not have been accurate, because it was a school project.
Quote from: CRKrueger;956531Well, Poul Anderson invention, like mentioned above.
Poul Anderson is Gygax's pen name!
Ya really gotta keep up CRK!! :)
BTW, do we know anything about Poul Anderson's inspiration for his trolls?
And are there any other authors who did cool stuff with trolls pre-D&D?
Quote from: Spinachcat;956546Poul Anderson is Gygax's pen name!
Ya really gotta keep up CRK!! :)
BTW, do we know anything about Poul Anderson's inspiration for his trolls?
And are there any other authors who did cool stuff with trolls pre-D&D?
In some places Troll is interchangable with Ogre or Giant so depending on who is referencing what you can end up with all sorts.
Some in litrature I've seen were...
Bogeyman type powers.
Spellcasting
Turned to stone by water.
Forget the name of the story. But there was one where the trolls had a sort of psionic invisibility power.
Another one where they had a psionic fear projection power.
And in Stand Still-Stay Silent they are mutated humans and animals. As they are in a few other PA settings.
In one they were lizard men. No clue why.
As with Ogres and most everything else. Theres been lots of variations that sometimes range into the really odd.
In my upcoming Lion & Dragon: Medieval Authentic OSR Roleplaying, Trolls turn to stone if exposed to sunlight.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;956543Ah, good to know. My knowledge came from memory of some old Scandinavian poems and a retranslation of Beowulf, which may or may not have been accurate, because it was a school project.
Seamus Heany's translation refers to Grendel's mother as a "troll-dam". I don't know how close that is to the Anglo-Saxon text, so you might be right.
Drudge skeletons was one of the first MTG cards that captured my imagination, for whatever reasons. The vision of this sort of unkillable horde that keeps returning - it appealed to me for some reason. Does anyone know - when did that idea get started? I think of the old "Cauldron Born" from Prydain, or even Bedknobs and Broomsticks. What's earlier?
Things that just keep coming back. Always interesting to me.
Trolls being turned to stone by sunlight has pre-Tolkien origins in folklore and myth. Stories vary as to if and when they turn back. Sundown and midnight are popular choices.
Skeletons that keep coming back, was it Rolemaster that had skeletons that drained Constitution (or hit points) and kept slowly regenerating unless the bones were boned? Man, that made minor undead scary again.
Quote from: RPGPundit;957650In my upcoming Lion & Dragon: Medieval Authentic OSR Roleplaying, Trolls turn to stone if exposed to sunlight.
I always loved this and should integrate it into my game. Not a huge Tolkein fan but the trolls sequence in The Hobbit is a highlight of the book for me.
Quote from: Ashakyre;960950Drudge skeletons was one of the first MTG cards that captured my imagination, for whatever reasons. The vision of this sort of unkillable horde that keeps returning - it appealed to me for some reason. Does anyone know - when did that idea get started? I think of the old "Cauldron Born" from Prydain, or even Bedknobs and Broomsticks. What's earlier?
Things that just keep coming back. Always interesting to me.
I will have to check my Chronicles of Prydain to see how the Cauldron Born were described. Were they explicitly animated skeletons (as clearly distinct from zombies), or was that a convention from the movie? I seem to recall some discussion of undead (it might have been GURPS Undead or something like that) that stated that, outside of a few isolated incidents, there weren't a lot of folklore animated skeletons as there are with animated corpses or incorporeal spirits. It seems their ease at being put into movies made them much more of a thing. I'm not sure of how much that is the case.
As to what is earlier,
Chronicles of Prydain started publication in '64,
Bedknobs and Broomsticks the movie was from '71. It was based on books starting in '43, but those books were not all that widespread. Both of them are relatively modern, and closer to the concept. However, the idea of an unstoppable force which keeps coming back (except perhaps with some specific triggered effect that will make it stop) goes back to antiquity. Think Heracles and the Hydra--sure all the heads are attached to the same creature, but roughly speaking it is a horde which gets worse the more you fight it, and keeps coming back unless you do some very specific thing (torch the heads).
The Cauldron Born were pretty much deadmen walking. The movie turned them into skeletons. In the book they were palid, silent warriors who could not die.
Quote from: Voros;961239I always loved this and should integrate it into my game. Not a huge Tolkein fan but the trolls sequence in The Hobbit is a highlight of the book for me.
Yes, though I took it not from Tolkien, but from the scandinavian medieval folklore he was also inspired by.