whew... this thread is... something.

my two cents:

Quote from: blackstone on February 08, 2024, 08:16:51 AM
When they started attacking you personally, that's when they crossed the line.

that^ is the crux of the matter. the rules can be changed, stuff can be poorly communicated, new player may not be up to speed on everything, a lot of different shit can happen in a game - or any other group activity for that matter - and all of that should have been fixed in the game via tools available to players and the DM, at least an attempt should have been made. that is, if the goal was to play a game among decent people willing to recognize their differences and resolve misunderstandings in order to have fun together.

instead the motherfuckers started attacking Cipher personally. fuck that, just find another group.

p.s. voted "Unecessary but harmless: Don't care either way." - whatever is happening between consenting adults that is not illegal is fine by me. communication is key.

Over on Reddit there was a recent thread about a DM with troublesome player. They tried talking to them in private and it did not pan out. So the DM confronted them with the group present and the player eventually had to leave.

Some of the posters dogpiled the guy for "Ganging up on the player" and that was "triggering".

I kid you not.

Quote from: Omega on February 12, 2024, 07:57:25 PM
Over on Reddit there was a recent thread about a DM with troublesome player. They tried talking to them in private and it did not pan out. So the DM confronted them with the group present and the player eventually had to leave.

Some of the posters dogpiled the guy for "Ganging up on the player" and that was "triggering".

I kid you not.

The prog mindset is that the majority needs to dance like marionettes to the whims of the ultra minority, while the minority has zero responsibility to the majority. This is just that in game form.

The group has a Cleric, Paladin and Druid? Well I want to introduce a Necromancer, stop making it awkward for me to roleplay my character!

Late to this party, as usual!
As I've mentioned before, not only are X-cards open to abuse they also mirror a specific from of spousal/SO abuse. The victim is given the silent treatment and then vilified for not fixing their behaviour - despite having no idea what they've done wrong (they haven't actually done anything wrong, it's a form of control). So the mere presence of an X-card can be triggering to those people.

I'm not in favour of safety tools, but I haven't seen/experienced any issues with them personally. At con games I put up a warning about adult themes, at my home/club games I either know the players or let them know the sort of things that will come up. If they're unhappy, they don't join the game. I tend to avoid excessive nastiness anyway.

On Cipher's specific problem, it sounds like he avoided a bullet. A complete mismatch of expectations - the rest of the group was on one hymn sheet, Cipher was at a completely different church, playing metal tunes.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 12, 2024, 11:21:04 PM
The prog mindset is that the majority needs to dance like marionettes to the whims of the ultra minority, while the minority has zero responsibility to the majority. This is just that in game form.

The group has a Cleric, Paladin and Druid? Well I want to introduce a Necromancer, stop making it awkward for me to roleplay my character!

I agree that the group should conform to whatever the majority want. In Cipher's case, he was playing his paladin as kill-on-sight a figure that that he thinks is a vampire, while all the other players wanted to confront and confirm the figure that they thought was a vampire. As spon just put it:

Quote from: spon on February 13, 2024, 10:50:49 AM
On Cipher's specific problem, it sounds like he avoided a bullet. A complete mismatch of expectations - the rest of the group was on one hymn sheet, Cipher was at a completely different church, playing metal tunes.

Yeah, that's how I see it. Nothing wrong with hymns, and nothing wrong with heavy metal -- but they don't mix well singing side-by-side.

It sounds like he should have called for a ruling from the DM earlier, rather than allowing the DM to sit silent for two hours. Once he had the DM ruling, he could decide to leave the game for one that's more open to kill-on-sight play.

I've got a couple sticking points with jhkim's last post.

Quote from: jhkim on February 14, 2024, 09:26:50 PM
I agree that the group should conform to whatever the majority want.

First, no. A ttrpg table shouldn't be run by the majority, it's run by the DM. If the DM wants to bend to will of the majority, that's his perogative, but fundamentally the table isn't a democracy, it's an autarchy.

Quote from: jhkim on February 14, 2024, 09:26:50 PM
In Cipher's case, he was playing his paladin as kill-on-sight a figure that that he thinks is a vampire, while all the other players wanted to confront and confirm the figure that they thought was a vampire.

Second, I don't think this is an accurate portrayal of what went down. Per Cipher's original post

Quote from: Cipher on January 28, 2024, 05:32:23 PM
The other Players derided me as a murderhobo for not trying to reason with the vampire spawn, saying that he could be doing all of this against his own will, as the spawns must obey their Masters. I said that be that as it may, there is no way to cure vampirism so I was giving this poor creature mercy, by freeing them from their shackles.

They didn't start to stuggle session him because he assumed it was a vampire spawn, they did it because he was trying to kill what they all knew was a vampire spawn.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 14, 2024, 10:29:16 PM
I've got a couple sticking points with jhkim's last post.

Quote from: jhkim on February 14, 2024, 09:26:50 PM
I agree that the group should conform to whatever the majority want.

First, no. A ttrpg table shouldn't be run by the majority, it's run by the DM. If the DM wants to bend to will of the majority, that's his perogative, but fundamentally the table isn't a democracy, it's an autarchy.

Quote from: jhkim on February 14, 2024, 09:26:50 PM
In Cipher's case, he was playing his paladin as kill-on-sight a figure that that he thinks is a vampire, while all the other players wanted to confront and confirm the figure that they thought was a vampire.

Second, I don't think this is an accurate portrayal of what went down. Per Cipher's original post

Quote from: Cipher on January 28, 2024, 05:32:23 PM
The other Players derided me as a murderhobo for not trying to reason with the vampire spawn, saying that he could be doing all of this against his own will, as the spawns must obey their Masters. I said that be that as it may, there is no way to cure vampirism so I was giving this poor creature mercy, by freeing them from their shackles.

They didn't start to stuggle session him because he assumed it was a vampire spawn, they did it because he was trying to kill what they all knew was a vampire spawn.

Exactly. Twice I have written a long post explaining this and twice it seems jhkim is either willingfully ignoring it or just trolling me so I waste my time writing those long posts.

Not anymore. It's very telling that you got that from the original post, letting me know I explained the situation very clearly from the beginning and no long posts were necessary. Indeed, there was no discussion of "wait, maybe he is not the vampire we are looking for!" or "wait, maybe he is not really a vampire, we need to confirm first!"

It was: "How dare you call a vampire a filthy bloodsucker! That's bigotry!" and "The vampire spawn is only obeying his Master. He is actually a victim!"

Thank you so much, Zenoguy3 for at least taking the time to actually read my post and accurately present the events as relayed. It's OK if you disagree with my actions, though process or choice of words(not saying you are), but I really dislike how jhkim has won an Olympic gold medal in mental gymnastics trying to twist the situation to make it so 'somehow' I was the only one sure that the merchant was the guy in the studio and that he was actually a vampire.

Quote from: Cipher on February 14, 2024, 11:55:46 PM
Thank you so much, Zenoguy3 for at least taking the time to actually read my post and accurately present the events as relayed. It's OK if you disagree with my actions, though process or choice of words(not saying you are), but I really dislike how jhkim has won an Olympic gold medal in mental gymnastics trying to twist the situation to make it so 'somehow' I was the only one sure that the merchant was the guy in the studio and that he was actually a vampire.

No problems. And for the record, the only action you took that I disagree with is bothering to try to make you case to those struggling you and trying to remain in the game, though I understand why and can't say I wouldn't do the same thing in the moment. In hind sight though, I agree with those saying you dodged a bullet. I hope you get into a new game that's worth your time.

Quote from: spon on February 13, 2024, 10:50:49 AM
Late to this party, as usual!
As I've mentioned before, not only are X-cards open to abuse they also mirror a specific from of spousal/SO abuse. The victim is given the silent treatment and then vilified for not fixing their behaviour - despite having no idea what they've done wrong (they haven't actually done anything wrong, it's a form of control). So the mere presence of an X-card can be triggering to those people.

A good point. A lot of these "safety tools" resemble Cluster B personality manipulation tactics. I don't think that's a coincidence.

jhkim is one more user that's joined my short but apparently growing list of people on my ignore list.  I just hit my limit with his dishonesty.

For those wishing to put someone on ignore, it is Profile - Modify Profile - Buddies/Ignore List.  If someone is consistently pulling you off topic then I suggest you use this feature.

Quote from: Cipher on February 14, 2024, 11:55:46 PM

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 14, 2024, 10:29:16 PM
I've got a couple sticking points with jhkim's last post.

Quote from: jhkim on February 14, 2024, 09:26:50 PM
I agree that the group should conform to whatever the majority want.

First, no. A ttrpg table shouldn't be run by the majority, it's run by the DM. If the DM wants to bend to will of the majority, that's his perogative, but fundamentally the table isn't a democracy, it's an autarchy.

Quote from: jhkim on February 14, 2024, 09:26:50 PM
In Cipher's case, he was playing his paladin as kill-on-sight a figure that that he thinks is a vampire, while all the other players wanted to confront and confirm the figure that they thought was a vampire.

Second, I don't think this is an accurate portrayal of what went down. Per Cipher's original post

Quote from: Cipher on January 28, 2024, 05:32:23 PM
The other Players derided me as a murderhobo for not trying to reason with the vampire spawn, saying that he could be doing all of this against his own will, as the spawns must obey their Masters. I said that be that as it may, there is no way to cure vampirism so I was giving this poor creature mercy, by freeing them from their shackles.

They didn't start to stuggle session him because he assumed it was a vampire spawn, they did it because he was trying to kill what they all knew was a vampire spawn.

Exactly. Twice I have written a long post explaining this and twice it seems jhkim is either willingfully ignoring it or just trolling me so I waste my time writing those long posts.

Not anymore. It's very telling that you got that from the original post, letting me know I explained the situation very clearly from the beginning and no long posts were necessary. Indeed, there was no discussion of "wait, maybe he is not the vampire we are looking for!" or "wait, maybe he is not really a vampire, we need to confirm first!"

It was: "How dare you call a vampire a filthy bloodsucker! That's bigotry!" and "The vampire spawn is only obeying his Master. He is actually a victim!"

Thank you so much, Zenoguy3 for at least taking the time to actually read my post and accurately present the events as relayed. It's OK if you disagree with my actions, though process or choice of words(not saying you are), but I really dislike how jhkim has won an Olympic gold medal in mental gymnastics trying to twist the situation to make it so 'somehow' I was the only one sure that the merchant was the guy in the studio and that he was actually a vampire.

I've come to the conclusion that jhkim through his responses is an NPC.

No living human can be so blind to the facts presented.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 15, 2024, 04:14:36 AM
A good point. A lot of these "safety tools" resemble Cluster B personality manipulation tactics. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Emphasis mine

I couldn't agree more. Another common such tactic is DARVO: Deny, Attack, Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender.

Quote from: blackstone on February 15, 2024, 08:12:30 AM
I've come to the conclusion that jhkim through his responses is an NPC.

No living human can be so blind to the facts presented.

I fear you underestimate the humans mind's capacity for delusion.