Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 03, 2024, 03:03:50 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 02:52:28 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 03, 2024, 02:46:38 PM
Well, if people are getting 'triggered' over a fictional game then there is something wrong on their side. So perhaps RPGing isn't a hobby for therm. that or they could just stick to 'cosy' rpgs instead.

"Having something wrong" is neither a personal failing, nor rare. People on this board get triggered by shit all the time. I've been role-playing for nearly four decades. Your estimation of who should be playing role-playing games strikes me as remarkably unworldly.

Now your changing the scope of the argument. We are talking about playing 'imaginary elf-games' and the zero damage they can do - unless someone is mentally ill or damaged. And if that's the case they should do another activity.

So what do you mean by mentally ill or damaged?

Quote from: BadApple on February 03, 2024, 03:07:29 PM
Trigger warnings are to prevent further damage to people that have deep trauma.  If you need trigger warnings for things might bring up in conversation then you are not in the mental health place to engage in normal social activities, let alone to play in TTRPGs.

Ah, yes, the classic "you should live in a basement with no social interaction" approach to improving mental health.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 03:09:20 PMAh, yes, the classic "you should live in a basement with no social interaction" approach to improving mental health.

You're right, 1 damaged person's desires trump 5-6 other people's desire to not have their game trashed and lives upended with BS.

Quote from: BadApple on February 03, 2024, 03:07:29 PM
Trigger warnings are to prevent further damage to people that have deep trauma.  If you need trigger warnings for things might bring up in conversation then you are not in the mental health place to engage in normal social activities, let alone to play in TTRPGs.

This is a disingenuous answer.  Indeed, a straw man attack.  Most people using the "trigger warning" meme are using as a form of social control.  You know this and are engaging in open dishonesty.

A person suffering from residual psychological trauma, PTSD, so bad that conversations would trigger them do need hospitalization and isolation from the general populous.  This is an acute medical emergency level problem and needs to be treated as such.  PTSD is a treatable condition that doesn't permanently debilitate someone.  Also, we've already had the conversation about what my credentials are on this topic.

A person that simply doesn't like the material being used for game play, no matter how extreme, doesn't need a trigger warning and can simply get up and walk away. 

 I think I need a clear, concise definition as to exactly what triggered means...because it looks like the goal posts are moving around so much that anytime you make a remark of disagreement you were "triggered"?   Thing I hate about marxists is their constant and consistent manipulation of language to always try to have a word or two than can be a "catch all".

Quote from: oggsmash on February 03, 2024, 03:29:15 PM
I think I need a clear, concise definition as to exactly what triggered means...because it looks like the goal posts are moving around so much that anytime you make a remark of disagreement you were "triggered"?   Thing I hate about marxists is their constant and consistent manipulation of language to always try to have a word or two than can be a "catch all".

Being triggered means that the individual in question suffers from PTSD and has had a flashback to the trauma event "triggered" by some form of stimuli.  This stimuli can be noises, smells, or a series of small events they are witnessing that seem to mirror the events leading up to the trauma.  Sometimes flashbacks can be triggered by visuals but this is kind of rare.

It's generally accepted that PTSD is caused when an event happens that puts a person on a high response level fight or flight reaction with no apparent options and then internalizes the experience.  This in turn can lead to depression, paranoia, and exacerbating other mental health issues.

Treating PTSD effectively is done with two things.  First, teaching the person how to actually respond to the type of event that caused the PTSD.  The second is walking the person through the events over and over until they process things and become desensitized to the stimuli.  (For God's sake, don't do this at home.  Seek a professional.)

The nutjobs that use the term "trigger warning" are generally aware of PTSD and it's effects and are using it as social leverage. 

There are plenty of healthy, capable people out there, who, nonetheless, when encountering certain material in a role-playing context, can go from "this is a fun activity I find personally enriching" to "this is an upsetting situation where I am no longer having the fun I wanted to, and continuing to deal with this situation is going to evoke real-world re-traumatizations, instead of the fun experience of an imaginary set of experiences." This is not a failure to distinguish reality from fantasy; this is an acknowledgement that role-playing games are supposed to be a fun experience, shared by engaged and self-determined adults, and not a situation where someone is distracted by harm and distress they have suffered or been threatened with in the real world.

It's like if you are having a snowball fight, and someone starts throwing snowballs full of ice. You get upset, and you don't want to play any more. You are not seriously, permanently injured. You will be more or less fine. But you aren't having fun. That doesn't mean you don't like snowball fights, or you can't handle being in a snowball fight. Being hit with hard ice isn't an assumed or accepted part of a snowball fight to most people. The experience sucks, and you want it to end. So you stand up and say, "Hey, guys. No more throwing ice or I'm out." So then it comes down to this: do the iceball throwers let you leave, or do you leave? Or are they the sort of people who keep throwing ice anyway, and laugh about it?

I don't think most of the posters here would assume r*pe is a normal part of the D&D experience. Nor do I think most of you would continue if, during an RPG session where someone starting describing r*pe or attempted r*pe, someone else said, "Hey, I'm a victim, I don't want to talk about that stuff during the game, ever." Most of you would recognize the topic could be over the line for a lot of people. Most of you would be willing to acknowledge legitimate trauma. It might seem to you this kind of behavior is unusual. But I have seen it. And I've heard about it plenty of times. I think it's worth noting that, sooner or later, a lot of end up being traumatized. Rates of sexual assault are disturbingly, staggeringly high. Many of us will get physically attacked. A lot of us will end up getting cancer. Half of us will be "mentally ill" in our lifetimes; about 20% of us will get mental health treatment this year.

So without squelching just anything bad that could happen in a game, I think it's worth having some consciousness that bad, real life things can intrude on an imaginary game, sometimes surprisingly. Sometimes, we should know better. Other times, it's like it's out of nowhere, and that's why communication is important.

I mean, I've been in plenty of games that have had kidnapping slavery. But let's say I was running a game, and something like that happened, and the player said, "Hey, look, I'm Somalian, and my cousin was kidnapped by pirates, and died escaping, could we not do human trafficking in this game?" I would do everything I could to accommodate them. I've met people who have fled violent genocide. It's important to remember that just because something is outside your experience, because it might be comparatively rare among people you know, doesn't mean it's not 100% real for the people who go through it. So before you say, "Well, no one at my table has those experiences," the odds are at least one person has had suffering beyond what they have ever told you. And they may have just bit their lip and said nothing to your face, while you dragged them through memories of the bad old days. Because they wanted to be considerate toward you. But that doesn't have to just happen.

There is flexibility for different people to have the different experiences they want. And there should be some way for someone to tell the group, "oh, hell no." Maybe not the X-card, for your group. But something. Time-out gesture, whatever. An opportunity to course-correct before the fun elf-game turns into a crisis call to their counselor.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 03:54:29 PM
There are plenty of healthy, capable people out there, who, nonetheless, when encountering certain material in a role-playing context, can go from "this is a fun activity I find personally enriching" to "this is an upsetting situation where I am no longer having the fun I wanted to, and continuing to deal with this situation is going to evoke real-world re-traumatizations, instead of the fun experience of an imaginary set of experiences."

Yeah, and they either say something about it, or don't play with that group anymore. No "healthy, capable people" need an X-card, it's a crutch for the mentally deficient who should probably be spending their time doing something more valuable with their time like getting counseling.

Quote from: Brad on February 03, 2024, 04:12:28 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 03:54:29 PM
There are plenty of healthy, capable people out there, who, nonetheless, when encountering certain material in a role-playing context, can go from "this is a fun activity I find personally enriching" to "this is an upsetting situation where I am no longer having the fun I wanted to, and continuing to deal with this situation is going to evoke real-world re-traumatizations, instead of the fun experience of an imaginary set of experiences."

Yeah, and they either say something about it, or don't play with that group anymore. No "healthy, capable people" need an X-card, it's a crutch for the mentally deficient who should probably be spending their time doing something more valuable with their time like getting counseling.

I just hope, if you're ever in a bad place, someone is kind to you.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 03:54:29 PM
There are plenty of healthy, capable people out there, who, nonetheless, when encountering certain material in a role-playing context, can go from "this is a fun activity I find personally enriching" to "this is an upsetting situation where I am no longer having the fun I wanted to, and continuing to deal with this situation is going to evoke real-world re-traumatizations, instead of the fun experience of an imaginary set of experiences." This is not a failure to distinguish reality from fantasy; this is an acknowledgement that role-playing games are supposed to be a fun experience, shared by engaged and self-determined adults, and not a situation where someone is distracted by harm and distress they have suffered or been threatened with in the real world.

It's like if you are having a snowball fight, and someone starts throwing snowballs full of ice. You get upset, and you don't want to play any more. You are not seriously, permanently injured. You will be more or less fine. But you aren't having fun. That doesn't mean you don't like snowball fights, or you can't handle being in a snowball fight. Being hit with hard ice isn't an assumed or accepted part of a snowball fight to most people. The experience sucks, and you want it to end. So you stand up and say, "Hey, guys. No more throwing ice or I'm out." So then it comes down to this: do the iceball throwers let you leave, or do you leave? Or are they the sort of people who keep throwing ice anyway, and laugh about it?

I don't think most of the posters here would assume r*pe is a normal part of the D&D experience. Nor do I think most of you would continue if, during an RPG session where someone starting describing r*pe or attempted r*pe, someone else said, "Hey, I'm a victim, I don't want to talk about that stuff during the game, ever." Most of you would recognize the topic could be over the line for a lot of people. Most of you would be willing to acknowledge legitimate trauma. It might seem to you this kind of behavior is unusual. But I have seen it. And I've heard about it plenty of times. I think it's worth noting that, sooner or later, a lot of end up being traumatized. Rates of sexual assault are disturbingly, staggeringly high. Many of us will get physically attacked. A lot of us will end up getting cancer. Half of us will be "mentally ill" in our lifetimes; about 20% of us will get mental health treatment this year.

So without squelching just anything bad that could happen in a game, I think it's worth having some consciousness that bad, real life things can intrude on an imaginary game, sometimes surprisingly. Sometimes, we should know better. Other times, it's like it's out of nowhere, and that's why communication is important.

I mean, I've been in plenty of games that have had kidnapping slavery. But let's say I was running a game, and something like that happened, and the player said, "Hey, look, I'm Somalian, and my cousin was kidnapped by pirates, and died escaping, could we not do human trafficking in this game?" I would do everything I could to accommodate them. I've met people who have fled violent genocide. It's important to remember that just because something is outside your experience, because it might be comparatively rare among people you know, doesn't mean it's not 100% real for the people who go through it. So before you say, "Well, no one at my table has those experiences," the odds are at least one person has had suffering beyond what they have ever told you. And they may have just bit their lip and said nothing to your face, while you dragged them through memories of the bad old days. Because they wanted to be considerate toward you. But that doesn't have to just happen.

There is flexibility for different people to have the different experiences they want. And there should be some way for someone to tell the group, "oh, hell no." Maybe not the X-card, for your group. But something. Time-out gesture, whatever. An opportunity to course-correct before the fun elf-game turns into a crisis call to their counselor.

So we're talking about mentally ill people who you want to redefine as normal.

Plus you're also pushing the idea that everybody should have "safety" tools in their table...

Counterpoints:

If playing pretend elfgames puts your mental/emotional wellbeing at risk you shouldn't be playing elfgames.

If someone feels my table isn't for them there's the original way for someone to tell the group, "oh, hell no."... You get up and fuck off.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 03:54:29 PM
Blah, blah, blah...  I make up my own world and you better follow it's rules or else.

Shut up and go home.

Quote from: BadApple on February 03, 2024, 05:02:48 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 03:54:29 PM
Blah, blah, blah...  I make up my own world and you better follow it's rules or else.

Shut up and go home.

Did you just X-card me?

As a GM and a creator you've no obligation to sanitize your table for anyone's fee fees. It's not as if you are holding a gun to their heads and saying 'you got to play my game'.

Bottom line is don't play with people who can't handle a mature game. It's really that simple.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 03, 2024, 06:46:22 PM
As a GM and a creator you've no obligation to sanitize your table for anyone's fee fees. It's not as if you are holding a gun to their heads and saying 'you got to play my game'.

Bottom line is don't play with people who can't handle a mature game. It's really that simple.

Exactly.  I may not like your game but I can get up and walk away.  I'm also mature enough, and was at 19, to ask about the content. 

Any human that can't do this needs to grow or heal until he or she can or wave off games completely.

Quote from: BadApple on February 03, 2024, 07:09:21 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 03, 2024, 06:46:22 PM
As a GM and a creator you've no obligation to sanitize your table for anyone's fee fees. It's not as if you are holding a gun to their heads and saying 'you got to play my game'.

Bottom line is don't play with people who can't handle a mature game. It's really that simple.

Exactly.  I may not like your game but I can get up and walk away.  I'm also mature enough, and was at 19, to ask about the content. 

Any human that can't do this needs to grow or heal until he or she can or wave off games completely.

This is it, mate. And a bit of communication beforehand goes a long way to see if a player (or GM) is the right fit.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 04:14:18 PM
I just hope, if you're ever in a bad place, someone is kind to you.

Imagine thinking I've never been in a "bad place". Just imagine that. Never used an X-card, though, so at least I have my dignity!