Quote from: oggsmash on February 02, 2024, 09:30:57 PM
   Regarding X cards and such...I would never sit at a table where they made an appearance.   I play mostly with family and friends.  If I sat down and got any sort of speech about X cards/trigger warnings I would wonder 2 things...am I about to be in a game with a Gm and players who are going to get into their grotesque kinks at the table, or am I at a table with people too weak to talk about hitting things with an axe.  Either way I am out.

I play my regular games with family and friends, but I also go to about 4 or 5 local game conventions a year when I often play with strangers. Mostly from these, I've played in somewhere around 15-20 games that have used the X-card. I also have one friend who has used it in some of their home games, and I've sometimes GMed _Bluebeard's Bride_ where the X-card is written into the rules, so I've used it when I GMed that game in conventions.

Thus far, I haven't encountered either of these extremes in games with the X-card. In general, people have treated it like safety instructions in case of airplane crash. They'll shrug and go on with playing the game.

I did once encounter a player in a convention horror game where I didn't have an X-card, who freaked out and stopped the game over a seemingly minor issue. I've also encountered some players who make the game awkward by bringing their kinks to the table. So I see the concern. Maybe I'd encounter those a little more frequently if I more regularly had X-card games, but it seems rare in either case.

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Quote from: WERDNA on February 02, 2024, 09:38:19 PM
It's an observation that what you're saying sounded similar to the manner of things that come out of the mouths of politicians when they blame violent crimes on whatever video games with violence are in vogue. What does it matter if a party acts like bandits or if someone plays Grand Theft Auto?

Basically everyone has their lines about what is out-of-bounds in a game. For example, oggsmash suggests "players getting into their grotesque kinks at the table" as going too far, but in practice, people have a different line about what constitutes unacceptable behavior.

I don't like referring to this as "harm" because it seems really fuzzy to me the line between what is uncomfortable versus harmful. That presumably takes a degree of psychological expertise. On the other hand, it also doesn't seem significant. I want all the players to have fun, not be made uncomfortable by grotesque kinks or the like.

I'm not convinced that the X-card is a superior way to get that, but I do think there should is acceptable and unacceptable in-game behavior, and people's lines about that vary from person to person and game to game.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2024, 02:54:48 AM
I'm not convinced that the X-card is a superior way to get that, but I do think there should is acceptable and unacceptable in-game behavior, and people's lines about that vary from person to person and game to game.

And in any case, the players can talk it out like adults instead of antisocial fuckwits.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2024, 02:54:48 AM...and I've sometimes GMed _Bluebeard's Bride...

Quote from: pawsplay on February 02, 2024, 09:44:23 PM

Quote from: WERDNA on February 02, 2024, 09:38:19 PM

I asked you to elaborate for a reason. In what "sense" is it dangerous to deal in fictional violence, take inspiration from history, engage in human interaction, etc ?

"In the sense that it involves inter-personal interaction (words), (fictional) violence, various historical contexts (in a fictional world), and so forth." That is the sense of "dangerous" I was using. I stated the parameters which make it "dangerous" and I am not relying on other definitions.

Quote
It's not a thesis. It's an observation that what you're saying sounded similar to the manner of things that come out of the mouths of politicians when they blame violent crimes on whatever video games with violence are in vogue. What does it matter if a party acts like bandits or if someone plays Grand Theft Auto?

What the fuck are you talking about? I don't care if you play Grand Theft Auto 8: Skull-fuck Your Granny.

Bolding is stuff I wrote.

You're either mentally ill and can't differentiate between fiction and reality (which is my bet), or a disingenuous fucktard (which is also a strong possibility) or both (highly likely).

If you feel that sitting at a table to play pretend in a fictional world with fictional characters exerting fictional violence against other fictional creatures is "dangerous" you don't need "safety" tools, what you need is a padded room and a straight jacket.

They are not really needed, surely?
Like a movie, you tell the players that this game has mature themes. But specific 'trigger' warnings are for mental babies of the more modern era.

I too have an as....er opinion on this matter. X-cards were just another method the left used to gatekeep rpg's. And then they bullied and mocked you if you didn't. Anecdotally, they've never been needed in my games cause I'm, you know, like a respectful person, and don't want to ruin the fun for anyone.

The only "trigger" word I need to associate with is if my trigger control is good when shooting firearms.....LOL

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 03, 2024, 08:10:49 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2024, 02:54:48 AM
I'm not convinced that the X-card is a superior way to get that, but I do think there should is acceptable and unacceptable in-game behavior, and people's lines about that vary from person to person and game to game.

And in any case, the players can talk it out like adults instead of antisocial fuckwits.

Sure. Still, I think it's pretty normal to have social anxiety over saying "I have a problem with how you're playing". So there's a genuine problem that is at issue here. I'm not saying that the X-card is the best solution, but knowing and having played with some people who use it, it is basically for dealing with incidents like what BadApple described earlier in the thread:

Quote from: BadApple on January 29, 2024, 10:56:32 AM
I was in a game back in the mid 90s that was going heavy handed with the whole grimdark derp derp thing that was popular at the time.  I wasn't enjoying it.  In the last session of that particular campaign I was in, the GM was going into graphic detail about a murder scene the party discovered.

I just told the table the game wasn't to my taste and excused myself.  Later, I talked to two of the players because they were worried about the status of our relationship.  I let them know that I'm not really into the sex and gore the game was.  We parted on good terms and I even played other games with some of those guys latter.

This worked out fine - but I could also see some people who would prefer to wait, but don't want to drive people away with it. So they play with "We'll have some grimdark, but if it's too much for you, we'll tone it down."

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2024, 02:13:22 PM
So they play with "We'll have some grimdark, but if it's too much for you, we'll tone it down."

Not that I play splatter punk sex gore games.

But if a game is too much for a player, then they can always find another game to suit their taste. A GM or player can always leave. Personally I don't like the idea of having to 'tone down' a game or change it because someone has a fear of spiders.

okay, I might do that for a very good friend of mine but not for some bod on the internet. Basically it's best to start off with the right people.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2024, 12:45:55 PM
You're either mentally ill and can't differentiate between fiction and reality (which is my bet), or a disingenuous fucktard (which is also a strong possibility) or both (highly likely).

If you feel that sitting at a table to play pretend in a fictional world with fictional characters exerting fictional violence against other fictional creatures is "dangerous" you don't need "safety" tools, what you need is a padded room and a straight jacket.

Do you think people have one set of real feelings, in the real world, and then a different set of imaginary feelings, which only exist in imaginary worlds? There's nothing mentally ill about, you know, having feelings, and if that's a problem for you, maybe you should talk to a counselor.

I don't know how you can go off on tangents like this and then have the gall to call someone else disingenuous.

With my story particularly, we were a bunch of guys in out late teens and early 20s feeling out what our limits were.  I didn't know, they didn't know.  When I hit that limit, then I knew and I bowed out as graciously as I could.  I wasn't trying to ruin anyone else's time, I just came to a point where I realized that this form of game play wasn't for me. 

We were a bunch of geeks in the early 90s so of course there was some socially awkwardness to it all.  That said, we were all friends and all had enough maturity to accept this and talk out anything important.  With a few uncomfortable conversations and a few board game parties we all came to terms with it.

What I didn't say (because I thought it was irrelevant to the point) was that the campaign in question fell apart a few sessions later with the guys telling me that they had come to a communal understanding that the game really had gone too far into being explicit to be much fun.  We continued to experiment with difficult and mature content at the table until we found a balance that seemed to work and I carry that with me now as to where I draw my own lines today.  Hell, the GM felt ashamed about it until we kind of messily worked out with him that we thought he was doing a good job over all. 

There was no x-card or consent-in-gaming contract needed.  Even as a bunch of barely legal adults, we had enough maturity and humanity to treat each other with respect outside of our usual juvenile humor and social takes.  Honestly, if someone is too damaged to just talk to people as friends and equals rather than with passive-aggressive tools and talking down to people from a bullshit moral position, then they shouldn't be playing make believe in a TTRPG to begin with. 

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 02:40:54 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2024, 12:45:55 PM
You're either mentally ill and can't differentiate between fiction and reality (which is my bet), or a disingenuous fucktard (which is also a strong possibility) or both (highly likely).

If you feel that sitting at a table to play pretend in a fictional world with fictional characters exerting fictional violence against other fictional creatures is "dangerous" you don't need "safety" tools, what you need is a padded room and a straight jacket.

Do you think people have one set of real feelings, in the real world, and then a different set of imaginary feelings, which only exist in imaginary worlds? There's nothing mentally ill about, you know, having feelings, and if that's a problem for you, maybe you should talk to a counselor.

I don't know how you can go off on tangents like this and then have the gall to call someone else disingenuous.

Well, if people are getting 'triggered' over a fictional game then there is something wrong on their side. So perhaps RPGing isn't a hobby for therm. that or they could just stick to 'cosy' rpgs instead.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 02:40:54 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2024, 12:45:55 PM
You're either mentally ill and can't differentiate between fiction and reality (which is my bet), or a disingenuous fucktard (which is also a strong possibility) or both (highly likely).

If you feel that sitting at a table to play pretend in a fictional world with fictional characters exerting fictional violence against other fictional creatures is "dangerous" you don't need "safety" tools, what you need is a padded room and a straight jacket.

Do you think people have one set of real feelings, in the real world, and then a different set of imaginary feelings, which only exist in imaginary worlds? There's nothing mentally ill about, you know, having feelings, and if that's a problem for you, maybe you should talk to a counselor.

I don't know how you can go off on tangents like this and then have the gall to call someone else disingenuous.

Wrongo bongo, some feelings can be sure sign of mental illnes:

You feel there's a secret cabal intent on genociding you and people like you despite no evidence of such genocide much less of the cabal being real.

You feel that playing pretend is "dangerous".

You feel that you're Napoleon.

You feel demons talking to you...

Now, if by "dangerous" you mean it might hurt your fee fees, then you're an idiot that can't explain himself and an emotional child.

BUT, if you really believe that playing pretend while sitting at a table, rolling dice and speaking IS dangerous then yes, you need a padded room and a straight jacket.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 03, 2024, 02:46:38 PM
Well, if people are getting 'triggered' over a fictional game then there is something wrong on their side. So perhaps RPGing isn't a hobby for therm. that or they could just stick to 'cosy' rpgs instead.

"Having something wrong" is neither a personal failing, nor rare. People on this board get triggered by shit all the time. I've been role-playing for nearly four decades. Your estimation of who should be playing role-playing games strikes me as remarkably unworldly.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 02:52:28 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 03, 2024, 02:46:38 PM
Well, if people are getting 'triggered' over a fictional game then there is something wrong on their side. So perhaps RPGing isn't a hobby for therm. that or they could just stick to 'cosy' rpgs instead.

"Having something wrong" is neither a personal failing, nor rare. People on this board get triggered by shit all the time. I've been role-playing for nearly four decades. Your estimation of who should be playing role-playing games strikes me as remarkably unworldly.

Now your changing the scope of the argument. We are talking about playing 'imaginary elf-games' and the zero damage they can do - unless someone is mentally ill or damaged. And if that's the case they should do another activity.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 02:52:28 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 03, 2024, 02:46:38 PM
Well, if people are getting 'triggered' over a fictional game then there is something wrong on their side. So perhaps RPGing isn't a hobby for therm. that or they could just stick to 'cosy' rpgs instead.

"Having something wrong" is neither a personal failing, nor rare. People on this board get triggered by shit all the time. I've been role-playing for nearly four decades. Your estimation of who should be playing role-playing games strikes me as remarkably unworldly.

Trigger warnings are to prevent further damage to people that have deep trauma.  If you need trigger warnings for things might bring up in conversation then you are not in the mental health place to engage in normal social activities, let alone to play in TTRPGs.