Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 29, 2024, 07:27:55 AM

Quote from: Cipher on January 28, 2024, 07:12:01 PM
I am just that desperate. I don't even like D&D anymore, but agreed because at least that table was looking for players to run a heroic game, instead of a morally grey our outright villainous campaign.

Let's refocus the conversation for a moment to fix the underlying problem.  Which do you think is the easier lift:

1. Run a game yourself for some friends/acquaintances who you already know to be normal people, though not experienced gamers.
2. Find a way to have a fun game with the stark raving loons who already know the rules.

In the first option, you have to run the game. It's more work but also rewarding.  You need to teach new players that you already enjoy being around how to play.  Which means that the game might not be exactly what you want at first, because learning to play is a skill just like any other.  New players fall of the bike a few times before they get their balance.  You'll have some that aren't interested.  Some will drop out.  If you stick with it, eventually you'll find enough that enjoy it to keep going, and then build from there.  In other words, all you need from other people is the willingness to try it.

In the second option, you either have to adjust your thinking to accommodate things you already know are wrong, or you have to change a whole group of other people by getting them to examine their entire view of the world--which will touch on their deepest insecurities, assuming they are not blatantly lying in order to manipulate others.   The chances of success are negligible, and every step of the way will be frustrating to the Nth degree even if you did get some minor success. Assuming they don't toss you out first.

I would run a game, for sure!

The problem is, none of my friends IRL are playing TTRPGs anymore. And, as I said in another post, the local scene where I am is pretty dead. Only like a couple of stores have a local scene and their tables are filled with the "tumblr" crowd. I already tried that approach but it ended very very badly, as I described in a previous post in this thread.

This is why I had to turn online. But, the places where I see the most traffic online in terms of LFG always have specific requirements that I don't meet, like "must have LGBT representation" or "Must acommodate romance and interparty sexual expression".

This group, at least, said they wanted a vanilla enough type of game. Playing the 'Good Guys', no sexual stuff, no racism, no bullying and no bigotry.

When I said "I am that desperate to play" I meant it literally. To play. Either run the game or be a Player.

I already tried running the game online with the "we require queer representation" crowd and it went terribly. It was like being back at that store with the tumblr crowd.

And its always, always D&D 5e. So I took the time to prep and run a game I didn't like and still got shit on for not having enough diversity and queerness in the NPCs the party was meeting.

That was like three years ago. I just stopped altogether. But, I've been wanting to get back into the hobby for a while. This is my jam. My favorite hobby out of all. I really, really like it.

The problem is that you need a group. And finding people online seems to be a needle in a haystack ordeal.

I guess I'll just have to keep my head up and try again until I find a group that is at least not as crazy about demands or trigger warnings to play. Even if its just going to be 5e always, all the time.

But, thanks for your reply. I know you meant well and I do appreciate you taking the time to provide a perspective that would help me solving the problem.

Maybe 5e is the problem. I live in one of the most left-leaning cities in North America and I've never had the problems you're describing. I only run old school games so it does take a bit to get a group together.

Quote from: Lythel Phany on January 29, 2024, 11:32:19 AM
But my player had trauma from a bomb exploding in her vicinity, and thats a shit you'll never experience unless you live in a third world country

Hey! I grew up in Belfast! I resent that remark! 

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 29, 2024, 02:08:36 PM
Maybe 5e is the problem. I live in one of the most left-leaning cities in North America and I've never had the problems you're describing. I only run old school games so it does take a bit to get a group together.

D&D went kinda mainstream. Great for WotC:s bank account, less so for the traditional fans of the game and those of us that never really liked it and want to play other systems.

I actually managed to find a sane group online for WFRP one-shot that we are likely making into a campaign or at least more sessions, but looking for games online today is a bit like shopping for a struggle session with all the [5E] and [LGBTQIA+] tags 😂 .

It's all going to hell I tell ya'.

Quote from: Cipher on January 29, 2024, 01:59:01 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 29, 2024, 07:27:55 AM

Quote from: Cipher on January 28, 2024, 07:12:01 PM
I am just that desperate. I don't even like D&D anymore, but agreed because at least that table was looking for players to run a heroic game, instead of a morally grey our outright villainous campaign.

Let's refocus the conversation for a moment to fix the underlying problem.  Which do you think is the easier lift:

1. Run a game yourself for some friends/acquaintances who you already know to be normal people, though not experienced gamers.
2. Find a way to have a fun game with the stark raving loons who already know the rules.

In the first option, you have to run the game. It's more work but also rewarding.  You need to teach new players that you already enjoy being around how to play.  Which means that the game might not be exactly what you want at first, because learning to play is a skill just like any other.  New players fall of the bike a few times before they get their balance.  You'll have some that aren't interested.  Some will drop out.  If you stick with it, eventually you'll find enough that enjoy it to keep going, and then build from there.  In other words, all you need from other people is the willingness to try it.

In the second option, you either have to adjust your thinking to accommodate things you already know are wrong, or you have to change a whole group of other people by getting them to examine their entire view of the world--which will touch on their deepest insecurities, assuming they are not blatantly lying in order to manipulate others.   The chances of success are negligible, and every step of the way will be frustrating to the Nth degree even if you did get some minor success. Assuming they don't toss you out first.

I would run a game, for sure!

The problem is, none of my friends IRL are playing TTRPGs anymore. And, as I said in another post, the local scene where I am is pretty dead. Only like a couple of stores have a local scene and their tables are filled with the "tumblr" crowd. I already tried that approach but it ended very very badly, as I described in a previous post in this thread.

This is why I had to turn online. But, the places where I see the most traffic online in terms of LFG always have specific requirements that I don't meet, like "must have LGBT representation" or "Must acommodate romance and interparty sexual expression".

This group, at least, said they wanted a vanilla enough type of game. Playing the 'Good Guys', no sexual stuff, no racism, no bullying and no bigotry.

When I said "I am that desperate to play" I meant it literally. To play. Either run the game or be a Player.

I already tried running the game online with the "we require queer representation" crowd and it went terribly. It was like being back at that store with the tumblr crowd.

And its always, always D&D 5e. So I took the time to prep and run a game I didn't like and still got shit on for not having enough diversity and queerness in the NPCs the party was meeting.

That was like three years ago. I just stopped altogether. But, I've been wanting to get back into the hobby for a while. This is my jam. My favorite hobby out of all. I really, really like it.

The problem is that you need a group. And finding people online seems to be a needle in a haystack ordeal.

I guess I'll just have to keep my head up and try again until I find a group that is at least not as crazy about demands or trigger warnings to play. Even if its just going to be 5e always, all the time.

But, thanks for your reply. I know you meant well and I do appreciate you taking the time to provide a perspective that would help me solving the problem.

I run games on Roll20 and I've not really had a problem. Indeed when I did have a campaign crash due to special snowflake wokery type stuff, it was an online game but the lead instigators were IRL recruits. That they were actors may be significant.

Roll20 has a ton of people desperate to play an RPG. It's not hard to filter, eg my latest game is a Basic Rules 5e D&D game, which excluded the min-maxers, and I don't seem to have got any dangerhairs either. I guess the Hungarian girl is far left by Hungarian standards, ie normal by Anglo standards. 

Quote from: daft on January 29, 2024, 02:33:48 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 29, 2024, 02:08:36 PM
Maybe 5e is the problem. I live in one of the most left-leaning cities in North America and I've never had the problems you're describing. I only run old school games so it does take a bit to get a group together.

D&D went kinda mainstream. Great for WotC:s bank account, less so for the traditional fans of the game and those of us that never really liked it and want to play other systems.

I actually managed to find a sane group online for WFRP one-shot that we are likely making into a campaign or at least more sessions, but looking for games online today is a bit like shopping for a struggle session with all the [5E] and [LGBTQIA+] tags 😂 .

It's all going to hell I tell ya'.

Another one that worked well for me on Roll20 was running Mini Six. I think anything except 5e D&D and niche SJW games is probably safe enough. Honestly though I've not really seen SJWs even in my 5e Roll20 recruitment, it's more the maladjusted munchkin types you need to look out for.

Quote from: S'mon on January 29, 2024, 02:37:31 PM

Quote from: daft on January 29, 2024, 02:33:48 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 29, 2024, 02:08:36 PM
Maybe 5e is the problem. I live in one of the most left-leaning cities in North America and I've never had the problems you're describing. I only run old school games so it does take a bit to get a group together.

D&D went kinda mainstream. Great for WotC:s bank account, less so for the traditional fans of the game and those of us that never really liked it and want to play other systems.

I actually managed to find a sane group online for WFRP one-shot that we are likely making into a campaign or at least more sessions, but looking for games online today is a bit like shopping for a struggle session with all the [5E] and [LGBTQIA+] tags 😂 .

It's all going to hell I tell ya'.

Another one that worked well for me on Roll20 was running Mini Six. I think anything except 5e D&D and niche SJW games is probably safe enough. Honestly though I've not really seen SJWs even in my 5e Roll20 recruitment, it's more the maladjusted munchkin types you need to look out for.

I jumped the Roll20 ship years ago. Prefer not to use it, but beggars can't be choosers I suppose.

Quote from: BadApple on January 29, 2024, 10:56:32 AM
I was in a game back in the mid 90s that was going heavy handed with the whole grimdark derp derp thing that was popular at the time.  I wasn't enjoying it.  In the last session of that particular campaign I was in, the GM was going into graphic detail about a murder scene the party discovered.

I just told the table the game wasn't to my taste and excused myself.  Later, I talked to two of the players because they were worried about the status of our relationship.  I let them know that I'm not really into the sex and gore the game was.  We parted on good terms and I even played other games with some of those guys latter.

The difference is, I understood that I, the player, could only determine my own behavior.  I did not use my personal take on the material as an excuse for telling other people how to behave.

I think it's worth communicating "This part makes the game not fun for me." Through discussion, the answer could be "we can find a way to game where we all enjoy it" versus "everyone else really enjoys that part, so we should game separately". When I'm at a game, I want to know if someone else isn't having fun because of how I'm playing. Maybe I can accommodate them, maybe not, but if they don't say anything, I can't help them.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 29, 2024, 09:16:12 AM
The difference is that the X-card is an unquestionable veto that can be invoked at any time for any reason with no need for justification or explanation and no questioning or discussion allowed.  It's so easy to abuse that part of me suspects that it was designed to be abused.  You would have to be a fool to not anticipate that such an easy to abuse tool will be abused.  If something can be abused, it will be and these tools are very, very easy to abuse.

I'm sure that abuse has happened - but I've played in maybe 20 or so games - mostly at Bay Area conventions - where the X-card was introduced. In practice, no one ever touched it - and this includes in horror games with sexual content. It came across like pointing out the fire extinguisher. Maybe someone was reassured by it being there, but it wasn't something invoked. The one time I saw it invoked was at a home game where a friend of mine was GMing, and they (the GM) touched it and reined in a player's behavior.

I'm sure there are players who would abuse the X-card, but they seem rare even in conventions in the most liberal area of the country.

I'm not convinced about the benefits of it, but it's not like it instantly turns any game into My Little Pony or players constantly abuse it.

Quote from: I on January 29, 2024, 11:44:09 AM
GM at the start of a game:  OK, you set out into the wilderness.  It's going to be about a 3-day journey to the Dungeons of Doom, so...

Player 1:  NO!  *taps X card*  I'm agoraphobic!  *Starts shaking; tears well up*  Don't mention the outdoors!

GM:  OK, sorry.  We'll just say you're at the dungeon already.  The entrance is narrow, and steep steps lead down into pitch black darkness.  You can...

Player 2:  NOOOO!  I'm claustrophobic.  I'm not going in there.  I'll wait outside.

GM:  Alright, you can wait outside under the trees.  Meanwhile -

Player 3:  "TREES?  You didn't say anything about trees being in this game!  I'm dendrophobic.  No trees!"

GM:  *sigh*  Fine.  You're on the open steppe then, and -

Player 1:  You mean there's nothing but open sky above us?  Well that doesn't help me!  I'm agoraphobic, remember!

GM:  OK, let me rethink this.... Right then, you're all aboard ship, sailing for the, uh, Place of Doom.  You claustrophobes can stay on deck, and you agoraphobes can stay below deck.  There's no trees anywhere in sight."

Player 4:  *pounds X card furiously*  I'm thalassophobic!  I'm not gonna play unless you swear not to mention large bodies of water!"

GM:  You know, maybe I should just scrap this adventure and we'll play something else.  I have this one I found on the internet, set in a sort of a fantasy Starbuck's called "No Tears Over Spilled Coffee."  How does that sound"

This almost made me spill my coffee!

Indeed. I see it now as a very slippery slope. When does the line end? I understand this was hyperbolic for comedic effect but it does point out the problem. How much is too much? I like that your example uses different trigger warnings voiced by different players. As unlikely as this 'perfect storm' could be, its still a situation where the creativity of the game as a medium is being shackled by the idea of making sure no one gets triggered.

After reading the comments on this thread, I am leaning more and more towards thinking there is more harm than good and that, even though some people do find content warnings in game books useful, it seems trigger warnings never provide value to a game and have too many downsides to justify their existence, inclusion and usage.

Quote from: daft on January 29, 2024, 02:33:48 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 29, 2024, 02:08:36 PM
Maybe 5e is the problem. I live in one of the most left-leaning cities in North America and I've never had the problems you're describing. I only run old school games so it does take a bit to get a group together.

D&D went kinda mainstream. Great for WotC:s bank account, less so for the traditional fans of the game and those of us that never really liked it and want to play other systems.

I actually managed to find a sane group online for WFRP one-shot that we are likely making into a campaign or at least more sessions, but looking for games online today is a bit like shopping for a struggle session with all the [5E] and [LGBTQIA+] tags 😂 .


It's all going to hell I tell ya'.

Indeed! Sadly, this has been my experience.

Unlike the literally shaking rn twitterati, I have real PTSD and real triggers thanks to an unhappy youth.  It's doors.  Specifically doors opening or closing with force, because if a door was opening fast or slamming shut, there was an angry person twice my size in the immediate vicinity.  And I can safely say that never once in my entire life has a description of a door in an RPG caused me a single jot of an issue, because real triggers aren't based off of the intellectual concept of a thing, they're based off of tangibles.  The sound a door makes when tugged open, the feel of the air pressure in the room changing, the weird little sticky noise of walls and ceiling flexing in the wake of it, those make my spine clench and my heart skip a beat and I find it distinctly uncomfortable.  But you can't replicate that by describing it.  I also don't become an incoherent sobbing mess who has to post about it on twitter, but that's maybe another thing entirely.

The theory behind a trigger warning is a polite one, and I can accept it for some media; someone who saw their parent gunned down in front of them may very fairly be unhappy if they're watching some otherwise-happy show and suddenly a character is gorily riddled with bullets onscreen with no warning that the episode would involve brutal murder.  But in that instance, the visual media can replicate the initial trauma.  For RPGs?  I can't conceive of how a written word or a verbal description of something is capable of simulating life well enough to actually hit a triggering stimulus.

Quote from: Lythel Phany on January 29, 2024, 04:29:04 AM
I had a player who was literally triggered by unexpected sudden loud noises with involuntary reaction. She would become unresponsive for a minute as she tried to regain control. We would roll the dice more slowly and be careful not to drop anything. Everyone in the group knew about her condition and tried not to get too heated during RP to not smack the table as a reaction.

One of my friends has arachnophobia. Its not something that comes up as often, but when a giant spider or something like bebilith became an encounter, he would panic so his GM would replace the encounter on the spot. And this was a very "anti-consent sheet" grognard group.

Another friend was going to start a game with underwater exploration. One player realy wanted to play a game for the first time, but he had some kind of accident as a kid and had fear of drowning so he was going to leave the group. GM did the unthinkable and vaporized the whole lake and changed the adventure into "why has it been vaporized" mystery.

None if these people had a session long discussions on what they want or dont want in a game. They just stated their real life fears and triggers to the party/gm. GMs tried their best to accomidate them so they wouldnt feel like coming to an hours long torture session. But when something slipped past our control they never blamed others. And we never spent more than 5 minutes on the issue after apologizing.

IMO, if someone is demanding no sexism/racism/slavery/etc. at all, they are not suited to have a meaningful conversation in or out game at all. You can ask the GM to not shove one in all the time but even the most kid friendly heartwarming game is going to have that "girls cant play/boys are icky" children who the party is going to prove wrong. The general expectation of kid friendly/pg13/18+ is useful to determine what is going to happen in game but even pg13 cartoons have their dark moments.

Also by their standards, rest of that oarty is bigoted against beast. Giant spiders have int score too and being a "beast" creature you can use speak with animals spells to talk with it, something far more accessable than a level 9 spell. Maybe they are innocent and forced to attack you due to that vampire spawn. Of course they never think of that angle.

Quote from: Valatar on January 29, 2024, 04:27:37 PM
Unlike the literally shaking rn twitterati, I have real PTSD and real triggers thanks to an unhappy youth.  It's doors.  Specifically doors opening or closing with force, because if a door was opening fast or slamming shut, there was an angry person twice my size in the immediate vicinity.  And I can safely say that never once in my entire life has a description of a door in an RPG caused me a single jot of an issue, because real triggers aren't based off of the intellectual concept of a thing, they're based off of tangibles.  The sound a door makes when tugged open, the feel of the air pressure in the room changing, the weird little sticky noise of walls and ceiling flexing in the wake of it, those make my spine clench and my heart skip a beat and I find it distinctly uncomfortable.  But you can't replicate that by describing it.  I also don't become an incoherent sobbing mess who has to post about it on twitter, but that's maybe another thing entirely.

The theory behind a trigger warning is a polite one, and I can accept it for some media; someone who saw their parent gunned down in front of them may very fairly be unhappy if they're watching some otherwise-happy show and suddenly a character is gorily riddled with bullets onscreen with no warning that the episode would involve brutal murder.  But in that instance, the visual media can replicate the initial trauma.  For RPGs?  I can't conceive of how a written word or a verbal description of something is capable of simulating life well enough to actually hit a triggering stimulus.

^^Facts^^

This is what real PTSD is like when triggered.  Not that stupid temper tantrum white girls and tiktok trans do when they are trying to make people behave the way they want.

I do not like trigger warnings and have had a poor experience with players who have "triggers".

I started running 5e games at my local games store a few years ago because I was asked. I ran my games with the express idea that my games were P-13, ie LotR/Harry Potter. In both campaigns that I ran, I had players who out of the blue let me know that they were triggered by certain topics almost a year into the campaigns both times.

The first was "explosions". As in I could not have any explosions in the game. The reasoning was the Boston Marathon bombing. This was in 2023, ten years after the bombing, and the player was not even 21. No additional explanation was given, and I was expected to just accept it. Do you have any idea how hard DnD type rpg's are to run with "no explosions"?

The second was a man in his 70s who got angry that I questioned how often his character could cast "Magic Daggers", what he always referred to the magic missile spell as, and informed I me should just let him have his way rather because it was how he had fun rather than enforce the rules. This player also would routinely instigate combat and then have their character run away to leave the rest of the party to deal with. Resulting in multiple character deaths and then would have a toddler's tantrum if his character was negatively impacted in any way. Again I was expected to just accept it as it was "his fun". To hell with everyone else at the table and myself.

I no longer run or participate in long-term games with people I do not know. It is just not worth it. I will do a single session here and there to find people I am willing to reach out to. But there are way too many "gatekeepers" in the "hobby" these days who feel that every game needs to fit their exact preferences without compromise.

Sorry for a bit of a rant.

There are some good communities online where you can find like-minded people to game with without subjecting yourself to randos on the internet. My two recommendations are:

Dungeon Crawlers (DCC centric): https://discord.gg/GqccgBPh
Troll Lord Games (Castles & Crusades centric): https://discord.gg/trolllordgames

Quote from: S'mon on January 29, 2024, 02:37:31 PM

Quote from: daft on January 29, 2024, 02:33:48 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 29, 2024, 02:08:36 PM
Maybe 5e is the problem. I live in one of the most left-leaning cities in North America and I've never had the problems you're describing. I only run old school games so it does take a bit to get a group together.

D&D went kinda mainstream. Great for WotC:s bank account, less so for the traditional fans of the game and those of us that never really liked it and want to play other systems.

I actually managed to find a sane group online for WFRP one-shot that we are likely making into a campaign or at least more sessions, but looking for games online today is a bit like shopping for a struggle session with all the [5E] and [LGBTQIA+] tags 😂 .

It's all going to hell I tell ya'.

Another one that worked well for me on Roll20 was running Mini Six. I think anything except 5e D&D and niche SJW games is probably safe enough. Honestly though I've not really seen SJWs even in my 5e Roll20 recruitment, it's more the maladjusted munchkin types you need to look out for.

Yup. I've been playing on Roll 20 and Foundry for almost 3 years now, and have not had a single bit of SJW related trouble. All you have to do is avoid the most mainstream games (5e, Pathfinder 2, PBTA and WOD for the most part), and exercise a little common sense and reading between the lines before you join a game.

My pet theory about why the 5e player base is so bad is that a lot of the problem trickles down from bad DMs. From buzz around the internet I get the impression that the average caliber of the DMs who started with 5e is substantially lower than for any previous edition. This, I suspect, is down to several causes. Part of it is the ole RPG Pundit "They taught you to play D&D wrong on purpose", but I also think it's caused by the sudden glut of players in the 5e years. That means more groups of entirely new players, where in earlier years, most new players learned the game from a veteran. And then there's just the fact that zoomers are, on the whole, extraordinarily poorly socialized as a generation.

For better or worse, DMs have a leadership role at the RPG table, so if a scene is dominated by bad DMs, that changes the player base. I think 5e players are...well I won't say "traumatized", but let's say "made paranoid". As a generation, they've had proportionally more experience with bad DMs (and players), combine that with the generally sensitive nature of zoomer culture, and they're on a hair-trigger. They're expecting abuses of power at the table, and so they act out pre-emptively, making them the same kind of problem players they're probably afraid of. New Schoolers will talk constantly about the RPG Social Contract, but they ironically have zero faith in their fellow hobbyists.