Quote from: SHARK on February 04, 2024, 02:26:26 PM
Greetings!

You did the right thing, Cipher. Stay away from Woke people running games.

The whole meta idea though that "Vampires are not always evil!" or "Undead are not always evil.", seems nice and all, but for roleplaying, again, why would a *Character* that is a inhabitant of that world, why would they even believe such? Beyond that, to a *Character*, why would it even matter? KILL THEM ALL!

Somewhere out there, there *might* be a more or less benevolent Rattlesnake.

Most people are smart enough to not give a damn about even contemplating such ideas. If they see a Rattlesnake, the correct response is to either move away quickly--or attack and kill it.

Undead creatures are an abomination. Beyond any such theological ideas, they are animated corpses, whether Ghouls, Zombies, Skeletons, or Vampires. These Undead creatures all typically slaughter, terrorize, and EAT human beings, and humanoids.

That is the essence of what Undead are. Evil, human-eating monsters that live on blood, souls, and spreading darkness and terror. There is not really much ground or merit in making a bunch of Undead "Not Evil"--they would not by essence then, really be "Undead." If they are truly noble and good, then their state of Undeathness itself is inconsistent. Redeem them, and they die and depart the mortal world properly. Whatever. Undeath, as a state of being, at its very core, is unnatural, dark, and evil.

Righteous Paladins and Clerics need to hunt these monsters down ruthlessly!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Indeed, Shark!

This has always been my understanding of undead, specially in games like D&D where "Good" and "Evil" are not just words, but actual planes of existence.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:11:41 PM
So what I'm gathering is, if you're ever in a game where you encounter absolutely unacceptable material to you, you must not use the X-card, like a manipulative psychopath, but instead get up and leave the gaming group, never to return, like a completely normal person with mature interpersonal and communication skills.

Thats certainly one way to handle it. Another is to be a reasonable person and address the issue in the moment by speaking up or after the session rather then say. Screaming, blowing a whistle, breaking a chair over someone's head, pressing a panic button or repeatedly smacking a card and then not explaining yourself. As the key feature of X Cards is no explanation required to create a safe space free of judgment.

I can't speak for others in this thread, but as a I've said in my last post and implied in my other posts. Halting the game to communicate discomfort isn't an issue for me. I'd like to know if my player's are enjoying themselves or not. What I dislike is a blanket "stop this now" button then not communicating. As theirs no communication occuring, no progress is made. Which then opens the door for bad actors.

Quote from: Kahoona on February 04, 2024, 10:20:13 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:11:41 PM
So what I'm gathering is, if you're ever in a game where you encounter absolutely unacceptable material to you, you must not use the X-card, like a manipulative psychopath, but instead get up and leave the gaming group, never to return, like a completely normal person with mature interpersonal and communication skills.

Thats certainly one way to handle it. Another is to be a reasonable person and address the issue in the moment by speaking up or after the session rather then say. Screaming, blowing a whistle, breaking a chair over someone's head, pressing a panic button or repeatedly smacking a card and then not explaining yourself. As the key feature of X Cards is no explanation required to create a safe space free of judgment.

I can't speak for others in this thread, but as a I've said in my last post and implied in my other posts. Halting the game to communicate discomfort isn't an issue for me. I'd like to know if my player's are enjoying themselves or not. What I dislike is a blanket "stop this now" button then not communicating. As theirs no communication occuring, no progress is made. Which then opens the door for bad actors.

See, you're sounding very reasonable to me right here. Communication is key.

The X-card is an emergency tool, it's not a communication tool. I'm not completely sold on the X-card specifically, but whether you have one or not, the game session can blow up. The reason the X-card isn't supposed to invite questions is because it's because it's not very nice to put someone on the spot and confess the bad things that have happened in their life to justify not continuing down that road. In my mind, it's probably better, on balance, to have it and not need it, and then to need it, and not have it. But maybe it's not such a great idea to put the veto power in the hands of someone who may not appreciate it, especially in the presence of strangers.

But I'm also not that optimistic about having mature, sensitive, reasonable discussions with people who might be near-strangers, either.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:25:10 PM

Quote from: Kahoona on February 04, 2024, 10:20:13 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:11:41 PM
So what I'm gathering is, if you're ever in a game where you encounter absolutely unacceptable material to you, you must not use the X-card, like a manipulative psychopath, but instead get up and leave the gaming group, never to return, like a completely normal person with mature interpersonal and communication skills.

Thats certainly one way to handle it. Another is to be a reasonable person and address the issue in the moment by speaking up or after the session rather then say. Screaming, blowing a whistle, breaking a chair over someone's head, pressing a panic button or repeatedly smacking a card and then not explaining yourself. As the key feature of X Cards is no explanation required to create a safe space free of judgment.

I can't speak for others in this thread, but as a I've said in my last post and implied in my other posts. Halting the game to communicate discomfort isn't an issue for me. I'd like to know if my player's are enjoying themselves or not. What I dislike is a blanket "stop this now" button then not communicating. As theirs no communication occuring, no progress is made. Which then opens the door for bad actors.

See, you're sounding very reasonable to me right here. Communication is key.

The X-card is an emergency tool, it's not a communication tool. I'm not completely sold on the X-card specifically, but whether you have one or not, the game session can blow up. The reason the X-card isn't supposed to invite questions is because it's because it's not very nice to put someone on the spot and confess the bad things that have happened in their life to justify not continuing down that road. In my mind, it's probably better, on balance, to have it and not need it, and then to need it, and not have it. But maybe it's not such a great idea to put the veto power in the hands of someone who may not appreciate it, especially in the presence of strangers.

But I'm also not that optimistic about having mature, sensitive, reasonable discussions with people who might be near-strangers, either.

An "emergency tool" needed when a player encounters a woke sex pest (they all are) or when a player wants to disrupt the game.

Take it and shove it up your woke ass.

I love how the idea that when 5 people at a table are cool with the game, and 1 isn't, the 1 person calmly quitting is a human rights violation, but the 5 should suck it up and dance to the tune of the minority.

"Emergency tool," like the game is on fire, or sinking in water and you need to break the windshield.

I understand the theory behind X-cards but like most, if not all, woke concepts, it's the unintended consequences that ruin it.

I personally assume people are generally selfish and depraved, in varying degrees.  Most become well adjusted adults, and even though selfish at heart, they understand it is important to temper their base feelings for the betterment of the whole.  Then there are the woke, who revel in their selfishness and look forward to express their nature in every possible situation.  X-cards cannot work as long as there are people who will exploit its use.  And those few who do exploit it ruin it for the rest who might actually use the cards as intended.

But see, if everyone used the cards as intended, the irony is, you don't need X-cards.  Because everyone would be well adjusted stable individuals who are able to communicate in a rational manner so that everyone can have a good time at the table.  X-cards would be redundant.

And I agree that if you have severe trauma where certain roleplay can set off terrible thoughts and pain, then you should seek help resolving those issues before partaking in a hobby that can trigger it.  It's like the whole world needs to babysit and tippy toe around everyone who have issues.  I'd think it's more polite and courteous for said individual to treat the trauma than expect others to cater to your needs all the time.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 05, 2024, 12:24:48 AM
I love how the idea that when 5 people at a table are cool with the game, and 1 isn't, the 1 person calmly quitting is a human rights violation, but the 5 should suck it up and dance to the tune of the minority.

"Emergency tool," like the game is on fire, or sinking in water and you need to break the windshield.

Agreed. I have no words for the contempt I feel for people who equate "comfort" with "safety."

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 04, 2024, 10:14:07 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:11:41 PM
So what I'm gathering is, if you're ever in a game where you encounter absolutely unacceptable material to you, you must not use the X-card, like a manipulative psychopath, but instead get up and leave the gaming group, never to return, like a completely normal person with mature interpersonal and communication skills.

You're not great at constructing arguments.
'You don't like the X-card, therefore you must put up with all unacceptable behavior at a table'.

Makes sense LOL

Greetings!

*Laughing*! Ahh, Rob! So true, my friend!

Your observation had me rolling!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: blackstone on February 04, 2024, 08:20:23 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 04:14:18 PM

Quote from: Brad on February 03, 2024, 04:12:28 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 03:54:29 PM
There are plenty of healthy, capable people out there, who, nonetheless, when encountering certain material in a role-playing context, can go from "this is a fun activity I find personally enriching" to "this is an upsetting situation where I am no longer having the fun I wanted to, and continuing to deal with this situation is going to evoke real-world re-traumatizations, instead of the fun experience of an imaginary set of experiences."

Yeah, and they either say something about it, or don't play with that group anymore. No "healthy, capable people" need an X-card, it's a crutch for the mentally deficient who should probably be spending their time doing something more valuable with their time like getting counseling.

I just hope, if you're ever in a bad place, someone is kind to you.

Guess what? Life isn't like that all of the time.

Sometimes you have nobody to rely on but yourself...and yes I have personal experience.

Those are the times where you go deep inside, find the courage to say "fuck it" , and move past the adversity facing you.

That exact adversity builds character, makes you stronger emotionally, and gives you confidence.

Which are the things woke culture is against.

Sure, we'd like to have help from time to time, but it's not always the case.

You have to face adversity in your life. Otherwise, you'll never grow as a person.

You'll end up has someone who "Triggered" by everything and playing the x-card the rest of your life.

And there's a whole generation of them.

Greetings!

Damn right, my friend! Just like a strike by a flight of A-10 Warthogs, man.

All these whining kiddies yammering about being "Triggered" because someone said or described something that hurt their feelings, or reminded them of some self-diagnosed fear, really demonstrate how soft and weak they are.

I'm sorry, the whole "I got triggered!" shrieking by these people is just so much BS. Becoming an adult means that you have to become tough, resilient, and self-reliant. Many of life's problems and challenges can be very difficult, and as you said, lots of times you must face it all by yourself. Either no one is around and able to help you, or no one else gives a fuck. Either way, you have to overcome it by yourself, and emerge victorious.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Cipher on February 04, 2024, 05:10:30 AM
All of this tells me as a Player and as a Paladin of Lathander that undead are Evil. Not just "kicking your dog" evil but cursed foul creatures that are a mockery of life that feeds on the living. Someone else said in a previous comment, there is a reason why the "Turn Undead" and "Protection from Evil" powers and spells exist.

For me, the DM just suddenly saying "vampires are not always evil in my world" is metagaming. My character has absolutely no way to know this. As I said before, if the other Players had their characters make a case on why we should not attack on sight and perhaps apprehend/interrogate the vampire, I would have been absolutely fine.

Instead, the game stopped and we had an almost 2 hour Out of Character discussion that boiled down to: "You are a murderhobo and a bigot".

There was a failure of communication which could well be the fault of the DM.

However, your demands about vampires is wrong. It is the DM's world, and he gets to decide about what the rules for undead are. If the DM says that heroic, good-aligned vampire exist like Blade (in Marvel) or Regis (in The Witcher), then that's the DM's ruling. From web search, there apparently are even canonical good vampires in Faerun - like Thibbledorf Pwent, who was eventually cured of his vampirism. From Pwent's bio:

QuoteIt was revealed that Pwent rose from his grave in Gauntlgrym. He was not dead, but nor was he alive. He had been turned into a vampire by Dor'crae. He hunted and fed off the blood of goblins and other monsters. However, he feared what he would become. After a brief talk with Drizzt in 1463 DR, Pwent decided to wait for the sun to rise in order to commit suicide. However, he never went through with the act. When Bruenor returned to Gauntlgrym to retrieve his axe, Pwent was discovered to have escaped back into the caves after his talk with Drizzt. He was now the leader of an undead band of drow. Bruenor vowed to return to free his friend from the curse of vampirism.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Thibbledorf_Pwent

It sounds like you and the DM disagreed about the true nature of undead in the game-world, as well as what a Paladin of Lathander would believe. That's not in-character discussion -- it's something that your character would know. But you're declaring here "The DM was wrong. I get to decide the nature of undead in the game-world."

Quote from: jhkim on February 05, 2024, 03:04:47 AM
It sounds like you and the DM disagreed about the true nature of undead in the game-world, as well as what a Paladin of Lathander would believe. That's not in-character discussion -- it's something that your character would know. But you're declaring here "The DM was wrong. I get to decide the nature of undead in the game-world."

Lathander is pretty canonically zealously anti-undead, e.g. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Lathander:

Quote
They were intolerant of evil, especially undead and inaction that caused evil to prosper.[28]

and

Quote
Though liked for his many positive qualities, Lathander also had a reputation for displaying the flaws common to the young, such as zealotry, vanity, and excess.[20] Though enthusiastically altruistic and only slightly vain, it was said by his critics that his aggressive do-gooder mentality often prevented him from taking more sensible courses of action. His headstrong conceit could blind him to the consequences of his actions as in his idealistic crusades he simply attacked directly and hoped for the best, ignoring the ramifications.[13]

If I were involved with anything approaching the canonical Forgotten Realms and wanted to change that, it's the sort of thing that the player of the Lathander-follower would need to know about in advance. The old scenario Murder in Baldur's Gate is full of racism, classism, etc...

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 09:34:12 PM

Quote from: blackstone on February 04, 2024, 08:20:23 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 04:14:18 PM
I just hope, if you're ever in a bad place, someone is kind to you.

Guess what? Life isn't like that all of the time.

Sometimes you have nobody to rely on but yourself...and yes I have personal experience.

Those are the times where you go deep inside, find the courage to say "fuck it" , and move past the adversity facing you.

That exact adversity builds character, makes you stronger emotionally, and gives you confidence.

Which are the things woke culture is against.

Sure, we'd like to have help from time to time, but it's not always the case.

You have to face adversity in your life. Otherwise, you'll never grow as a person.

You'll end up has someone who "Triggered" by everything and playing the x-card the rest of your life.

And there's a whole generation of them.

I just hope, if someone is ever in a bad place, you are kind to them.

I of course I would and I have, but you completely missed the point:

sometimes, just sometimes, you have to get past life's obstacles on your own.

In those moments, you have to find the strength of character to move past them.

In doing so, you become a better person.

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger."

Quote from: jhkim on February 05, 2024, 03:04:47 AM

Quote from: Cipher on February 04, 2024, 05:10:30 AM
All of this tells me as a Player and as a Paladin of Lathander that undead are Evil. Not just "kicking your dog" evil but cursed foul creatures that are a mockery of life that feeds on the living. Someone else said in a previous comment, there is a reason why the "Turn Undead" and "Protection from Evil" powers and spells exist.

For me, the DM just suddenly saying "vampires are not always evil in my world" is metagaming. My character has absolutely no way to know this. As I said before, if the other Players had their characters make a case on why we should not attack on sight and perhaps apprehend/interrogate the vampire, I would have been absolutely fine.

Instead, the game stopped and we had an almost 2 hour Out of Character discussion that boiled down to: "You are a murderhobo and a bigot".

There was a failure of communication which could well be the fault of the DM.

However, your demands about vampires is wrong. It is the DM's world, and he gets to decide about what the rules for undead are. If the DM says that heroic, good-aligned vampire exist like Blade (in Marvel) or Regis (in The Witcher), then that's the DM's ruling. From web search, there apparently are even canonical good vampires in Faerun - like Thibbledorf Pwent, who was eventually cured of his vampirism. From Pwent's bio:

QuoteIt was revealed that Pwent rose from his grave in Gauntlgrym. He was not dead, but nor was he alive. He had been turned into a vampire by Dor'crae. He hunted and fed off the blood of goblins and other monsters. However, he feared what he would become. After a brief talk with Drizzt in 1463 DR, Pwent decided to wait for the sun to rise in order to commit suicide. However, he never went through with the act. When Bruenor returned to Gauntlgrym to retrieve his axe, Pwent was discovered to have escaped back into the caves after his talk with Drizzt. He was now the leader of an undead band of drow. Bruenor vowed to return to free his friend from the curse of vampirism.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Thibbledorf_Pwent

It sounds like you and the DM disagreed about the true nature of undead in the game-world, as well as what a Paladin of Lathander would believe. That's not in-character discussion -- it's something that your character would know. But you're declaring here "The DM was wrong. I get to decide the nature of undead in the game-world."

Which BTW could have been avoided if the DM told the OP that Lathander in his version of FR was different.

AFAICT, he did nothing of the sort.

Fault is 100% on the DM.

Glad jhkim is once again twisting reality so that OP is in the wrong.

Quote from: Brad on February 05, 2024, 10:22:50 AM
Glad jhkim is once again twisting reality so that OP is in the wrong.

jhkim BOT: working as intended.