Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 04, 2024, 02:38:55 AM

Quote from: Cipher on February 04, 2024, 02:08:12 AM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on February 04, 2024, 01:19:49 AM
Wouldn't a paladin who DOES NOT kill an undead be an oath breaker?

That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

The reasoning was that the vampire spawn is a person, since they have intelligence, feel emotions, cannot go against their Master's orders and suffer if slain. I maintained that they are undead monsters. A mockery of life and that it was actually a mercy to release this poor soul of its grotesque existence.

It seems more like a difference in what the undead actually are, which can vary from GM to GM, campaign to campaign, and even creature to creature.

Something the players and GM should discuss when it comes up.

Well, yes, but it seems to me like something that should be discussed before it comes up if it differs from the setting or genre the DM stated was to be used.  And of course discussed in a mature manner that doesn't begin with "You're a bigot!"

People also need to have some damn sense when it comes to these things.  If you sign up to play Kult, don't clutch your pearls when some horrific thing happens.  If you are running Magical Kitties Save the Day, maybe don't spring weird sex shit on players out of nowhere. 

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 04, 2024, 02:38:55 AM

Quote from: Cipher on February 04, 2024, 02:08:12 AM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on February 04, 2024, 01:19:49 AM
Wouldn't a paladin who DOES NOT kill an undead be an oath breaker?

That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

The reasoning was that the vampire spawn is a person, since they have intelligence, feel emotions, cannot go against their Master's orders and suffer if slain. I maintained that they are undead monsters. A mockery of life and that it was actually a mercy to release this poor soul of its grotesque existence.

It seems more like a difference in what the undead actually are, which can vary from GM to GM, campaign to campaign, and even creature to creature.

Something the players and GM should discuss when it comes up.

I can see that argument, but this was a D&D 5e game in the Forgotten Realms setting.

Both the Forgotten Realms wiki and the D&D 5e SRD list the Vampire Spawn as a Medium Neutral Evil undead. Which, as far as I understand, means that vampires are always evil unless specified.

I am not privy to recent changes to the lore, but as far as I know, Lathander, the Morninglord hates undead. So, as far as my character as a Paladin of Lathander and me as a Player know, vampires/undead are irredeemable monsters.

I said before in this thread that all the arguments levied where directed at me as a Player, not at my characters. I would have been 100% fine with their characters trying to convince my Paladin in character. Maybe I am just an old fart that has a different definition or roleplaying and metagaming but, alas, such was the way I left the game.

After reading all the discussions in this thread, I firmly believe I made the right call and I don't think I will miss that game. It seems this wasn't a fluke or an isolated one time incident. Most likely, there was going to be another sort of situation in the future as even though we had a Session 0 to discuss the tone of the game and their "trigger warnings", it appears I understood what was discussed in a way that is incompatible to the way the rest of the table understood it.

I bear them no ill will. But, it is apparent to me at this point in time that the way they are playing is not for me.

Quote from: yosemitemike on February 04, 2024, 04:40:46 AM
People also need to have some damn sense when it comes to these things.  If you sign up to play Kult, don't clutch your pearls when some horrific thing happens.  If you are running Magical Kitties Save the Day, maybe don't spring weird sex shit on players out of nowhere.

Indeed, Yosemitemike!

Even without a session 0 discussion, just a cursory knowledge about that game or even just perusing its pages and looking at the art gives a very strong idea on its themes and tone.

As far as I know, in D&D alignment is not just a word, there are planes of existence that embody the alignments, with a plane of Law for where the Inevitables come from. Same for Avernus and such. So being "Evil" or "Good" is not just how fuzzy you feel inside after helping the old lady cross the road. These are tangible forces.

Specially so in the Forgotten Realms, where the gods are very real and at different points in time walked across the land.

All of this tells me as a Player and as a Paladin of Lathander that undead are Evil. Not just "kicking your dog" evil but cursed foul creatures that are a mockery of life that feeds on the living. Someone else said in a previous comment, there is a reason why the "Turn Undead" and "Protection from Evil" powers and spells exist.

For me, the DM just suddenly saying "vampires are not always evil in my world" is metagaming. My character has absolutely no way to know this. As I said before, if the other Players had their characters make a case on why we should not attack on sight and perhaps apprehend/interrogate the vampire, I would have been absolutely fine.

Instead, the game stopped and we had an almost 2 hour Out of Character discussion that boiled down to: "You are a murderhobo and a bigot".

Quote from: Mishihari on February 04, 2024, 04:22:35 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on February 04, 2024, 02:38:55 AM

Quote from: Cipher on February 04, 2024, 02:08:12 AM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on February 04, 2024, 01:19:49 AM
Wouldn't a paladin who DOES NOT kill an undead be an oath breaker?

That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

The reasoning was that the vampire spawn is a person, since they have intelligence, feel emotions, cannot go against their Master's orders and suffer if slain. I maintained that they are undead monsters. A mockery of life and that it was actually a mercy to release this poor soul of its grotesque existence.

It seems more like a difference in what the undead actually are, which can vary from GM to GM, campaign to campaign, and even creature to creature.

Something the players and GM should discuss when it comes up.

Well, yes, but it seems to me like something that should be discussed before it comes up if it differs from the setting or genre the DM stated was to be used.  And of course discussed in a mature manner that doesn't begin with "You're a bigot!"

Exactly.

There has always been a 'safety tool' in old school games - The GM using common sense.

And if you're playing with a dickhead GM then just leave. It's really not complicated.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 04, 2024, 06:23:08 AM
There has always been a 'safety tool' in old school games - The GM using common sense.

And if you're playing with a dickhead GM then just leave. It's really not complicated.

This!

Greetings!

You did the right thing, Cipher. Stay away from Woke people running games.

The whole meta idea though that "Vampires are not always evil!" or "Undead are not always evil.", seems nice and all, but for roleplaying, again, why would a *Character* that is a inhabitant of that world, why would they even believe such? Beyond that, to a *Character*, why would it even matter? KILL THEM ALL!

Somewhere out there, there *might* be a more or less benevolent Rattlesnake.

Most people are smart enough to not give a damn about even contemplating such ideas. If they see a Rattlesnake, the correct response is to either move away quickly--or attack and kill it.

Undead creatures are an abomination. Beyond any such theological ideas, they are animated corpses, whether Ghouls, Zombies, Skeletons, or Vampires. These Undead creatures all typically slaughter, terrorize, and EAT human beings, and humanoids.

That is the essence of what Undead are. Evil, human-eating monsters that live on blood, souls, and spreading darkness and terror. There is not really much ground or merit in making a bunch of Undead "Not Evil"--they would not by essence then, really be "Undead." If they are truly noble and good, then their state of Undeathness itself is inconsistent. Redeem them, and they die and depart the mortal world properly. Whatever. Undeath, as a state of being, at its very core, is unnatural, dark, and evil.

Righteous Paladins and Clerics need to hunt these monsters down ruthlessly!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: yosemitemike on February 04, 2024, 04:40:46 AMIf you are running Magical Kitties Save the Day, maybe don't spring weird sex shit on players out of nowhere.

Why must you limit my creative solutions like this?

Sometimes only a good Cleveland Steamer can save Princess Germania.

Quote from: Cipher on February 04, 2024, 02:08:12 AM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on February 04, 2024, 01:19:49 AM
Wouldn't a paladin who DOES NOT kill an undead be an oath breaker?

That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

The reasoning was that the vampire spawn is a person, since they have intelligence, feel emotions, cannot go against their Master's orders and suffer if slain. I maintained that they are undead monsters. A mockery of life and that it was actually a mercy to release this poor soul of its grotesque existence.

When it was ruled that if I went through it I would lose my powers as a Paladin of Lathander, I decided to leave the game.

I still maintain that I acted 100% in line with my character's alignment, backstory and religion.

Honestly, after reading some responses here, I am very happy I actually left that game before wasting more of my time. It seems that kind of crowd was not going to be a fun time sooner or later.

I am a DM. At my table, you would have gotten inspiration, assuming the Cleric hasn't clobbered the spawn already.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 04:14:18 PM

Quote from: Brad on February 03, 2024, 04:12:28 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 03:54:29 PM
There are plenty of healthy, capable people out there, who, nonetheless, when encountering certain material in a role-playing context, can go from "this is a fun activity I find personally enriching" to "this is an upsetting situation where I am no longer having the fun I wanted to, and continuing to deal with this situation is going to evoke real-world re-traumatizations, instead of the fun experience of an imaginary set of experiences."

Yeah, and they either say something about it, or don't play with that group anymore. No "healthy, capable people" need an X-card, it's a crutch for the mentally deficient who should probably be spending their time doing something more valuable with their time like getting counseling.

I just hope, if you're ever in a bad place, someone is kind to you.

Guess what? Life isn't like that all of the time.

Sometimes you have nobody to rely on but yourself...and yes I have personal experience.

Those are the times where you go deep inside, find the courage to say "fuck it" , and move past the adversity facing you.

That exact adversity builds character, makes you stronger emotionally, and gives you confidence.

Which are the things woke culture is against.

Sure, we'd like to have help from time to time, but it's not always the case.

You have to face adversity in your life. Otherwise, you'll never grow as a person.

You'll end up has someone who "Triggered" by everything and playing the x-card the rest of your life.

And there's a whole generation of them.

Quote from: blackstone on February 04, 2024, 08:20:23 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 03, 2024, 04:14:18 PM
I just hope, if you're ever in a bad place, someone is kind to you.

Guess what? Life isn't like that all of the time.

Sometimes you have nobody to rely on but yourself...and yes I have personal experience.

Those are the times where you go deep inside, find the courage to say "fuck it" , and move past the adversity facing you.

That exact adversity builds character, makes you stronger emotionally, and gives you confidence.

Which are the things woke culture is against.

Sure, we'd like to have help from time to time, but it's not always the case.

You have to face adversity in your life. Otherwise, you'll never grow as a person.

You'll end up has someone who "Triggered" by everything and playing the x-card the rest of your life.

And there's a whole generation of them.

I just hope, if someone is ever in a bad place, you are kind to them.

Quote from: jhkim on February 04, 2024, 02:19:17 AM

Quote from: Kahoona on February 04, 2024, 01:13:21 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 02, 2024, 01:50:09 PM
In fact, I am not aware of any game being played anywhere where the X-card has been used like some people seem to think it is, like some kind of red-light-green-light sub-game. If that ever happened, that game would be over pretty quickly. It's an oops button. It means, dump the warp core.

This has been my sole experience using X-Cards every bloody time.  What's worst is that sometimes the people using it don't even mean to be dickwads and genuinely just don't like what's going on in the game because it's not living up to their expectations.  Thus, becoming a tool to ensure the game doesn't enter areas they dislike. Functionally,  this kills the game.

and then

Quote from: Kahoona on February 04, 2024, 01:13:21 AM
When I first noticed X cards at some cons nothing really happened besides annoying trolls here and there and maybe one snowflake. But as the years went by, more and more snowflakes would abuse these cards and worsr, some people would basically hold games hostage and shame GMs and other players if they dared to question them.

Kahoona - these two statements seem contradictory, as I note with my bolding. According to your latter statement, when X-cards first turned up, nothing really happened - and frequent abuse only came later. But your first statement is that they have been abused every time.

How many games do you think you've played with the X-card? I don't use it in games I run, with the rare exception of a game where it's written into the rules. So I've GMed with it available three times, and played in convention games that used it maybe ten times, and played in five or six home games where the GM used it.

Again, I can imagine the X-card being abused, but I've never seen it happen. Actually, I've almost never seen it used. The one time I saw it invoked was when a player was taking a bunch of called shots to the groin on enemies, and the GM invoked the X-card, then explained that it as too close to sexual violence (which we had previous said was out of bounds).

I can believe that there are communities where it is being abused, but it's also clearly possible for it to be used in a non-abusive way. Notably, I don't play online except occasionally with people I already know face-to-face, so I have no experience with online communities.

I see what people mean by you nitpicking as I clarified my experiences rather then leaving just a hyperbolic comment. Anywho, to give a proper response.

Quote from: jhkim on February 04, 2024, 02:19:17 AMHow many games do you think you've played with the X-card?

A weirdly worded question. Are you implying I don't know my own experiences? If so, that's a heck of a leap.

Assuming this is just a weirdly worded thought, I've played somewhere in the ball park of 60 In person games with X Cards, this is including One Shots and Multi Session games. I've also ran about 5 In person games with X Cards 4 of them one shots, one of them several sessions. Online I've been in somewhere around 20 games with X Cards and I've run 2 online games with them.

When they first came up, they where not called X cards. Instead they where called Safety Cards at the cons that that used them. But they functioned the same way. They got used for two or three years.  Then stopped being used before resurfacing as X Cards. At which point they felt problematic.

Quote from: jhkim on February 04, 2024, 02:19:17 AMI can believe that there are communities where it is being abused, but it's also clearly possible for it to be used in a non-abusive way.

Good to hear you've had a better track record then me with X Cards. But for me, I've been burned to many times by strangers and acquaintances to view X Cards as anything but negative. Especially in Online games where every single one of those online games resulted in abuse of the X-Card.

Additionally, I think it's prudent to mention that the fact your GM who used the Card and then explained themselves goes against the "Usage" of the X-Cards. In an scenario exactly like that, these tools function as a crutch for someone to say "Yo. This is getting out of hand" which Im sure most gamers have experience.

Unfortunately, I've noticed that the usage of X-Cards and other tools like them rarely get used in that reasonable manner. Instead they get wielded like a hammer to force something to stop. And boy, is this even worst in online games where there's no social pressure to make someone behave themselves. As what I keep on experiencing is people using the X cards to stop negative outcomes, to control player actions they dislike and to control the game.

It's to the point where I avoid games that advertise Safety Tools,  as I feel the people drawn to those sorts of games are not there to have a collaborative experience but instead their to have a power fantasy. And for me, I play ttrpgs for the collaborative story.

So yea. The vast majority of my experiences with X-Cards has been poor. Resulting in my stance that they hurt games. If people have a problem during play, they should instead say something like an adult and talk it out or wait till after the session to address it. Having a talking stick/panic button/danger whistle to stop everything without an explanation. Doesn't really help address anything and it opens the door for bad actors to take advantage of accommodating people.

So what I'm gathering is, if you're ever in a game where you encounter absolutely unacceptable material to you, you must not use the X-card, like a manipulative psychopath, but instead get up and leave the gaming group, never to return, like a completely normal person with mature interpersonal and communication skills.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 04, 2024, 10:11:41 PM
So what I'm gathering is, if you're ever in a game where you encounter absolutely unacceptable material to you, you must not use the X-card, like a manipulative psychopath, but instead get up and leave the gaming group, never to return, like a completely normal person with mature interpersonal and communication skills.

You're not great at constructing arguments.
'You don't like the X-card, therefore you must put up with all unacceptable behavior at a table'.

Makes sense LOL