Quote from: Omega on January 30, 2024, 12:20:13 AM

Quote from: Brad on January 28, 2024, 08:13:30 PM
A paladin wanting to kill a vampire is now a bigot?

What the fuck...

Also NOT the PALADIN, the PLAYER. The PLAYER is a bigot because his paladin PC wants to kill a fucking vampire. Sounds like these clowns need a lobotomy.

I was told once on BGG deadly serious, that "Dwarves liking beer was racist." There is no limit on how stupid these nuts can get. NO LIMIT. That exploring Africa in a board game was "Promoting Genocide." and the poor guys game got cancelled. Someone else claiming they would not play any game that had leather in it because they were vegans. NO LIMIT.

You're right about the no limit thing.  They think being on time for work, drinking milk, and math are all indicators of a white supremacist mindset.  They LOOK for shit to complain about.  I mean, check this crap out:

https://theconversation.com/why-are-so-many-robots-white-213336

Yes, plastic white robots trigger them too.  But if we made them black or red or yellow or brown, they'd claim that was racist because the robots are servants of a sort and therefore we'd be projecting our racist ideas of servitude.  It's like the "words are violence" thing, but also "silence = violence."  There's no way to win with these people.  Which is kind of the point:  they revel in being victims, and complaining is their main joy in life. 

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 29, 2024, 08:44:55 PM
My pet theory about why the 5e player base is so bad is that a lot of the problem trickles down from bad DMs. From buzz around the internet I get the impression that the average caliber of the DMs who started with 5e is substantially lower than for any previous edition.

One thing about 5e D&D is that the 5e DMG is really bad at instructing new GMs how to GM D&D. It's basically indecipherable to them, and gets ignored. Instead they look to Youtube examples like Matt Mercer, and to the WoTC-published hardback adventures. I recall Justin Alexander pointing this out. The 5e authors, Mearls & Crawford I guess, didn't understand the 'cultural information' they needed to transmit, basic* stuff like starting small, keying a dungeon (including stuff like monster & treasure placement), building your setting out from an initial kernel of dungeon + starter town. The Starter Set & (much moreso) the Essentials Kit are better in giving examples of a basic campaign setup, but there are no real instructions on how to do it. And WoTC seem deathly afraid of simply telling people what to do. And it has of course gotten much worse over time.

*Mentzer Red Box Basic D&D from 1983 still seems the best guide to actually getting started GMing. Mentzer's tone can be patronising, but better that than being afraid to give functional instructions.

Quote from: I on January 30, 2024, 01:32:28 AM

Quote from: Omega on January 30, 2024, 12:20:13 AM

Quote from: Brad on January 28, 2024, 08:13:30 PM
A paladin wanting to kill a vampire is now a bigot?

What the fuck...

Also NOT the PALADIN, the PLAYER. The PLAYER is a bigot because his paladin PC wants to kill a fucking vampire. Sounds like these clowns need a lobotomy.

I was told once on BGG deadly serious, that "Dwarves liking beer was racist." There is no limit on how stupid these nuts can get. NO LIMIT. That exploring Africa in a board game was "Promoting Genocide." and the poor guys game got cancelled. Someone else claiming they would not play any game that had leather in it because they were vegans. NO LIMIT.

You're right about the no limit thing.  They think being on time for work, drinking milk, and math are all indicators of a white supremacist mindset.  They LOOK for shit to complain about.  I mean, check this crap out:

https://theconversation.com/why-are-so-many-robots-white-213336

Quote from: S'mon on January 30, 2024, 02:30:24 AM
One thing about 5e D&D is that the 5e DMG is really bad at instructing new GMs how to GM D&D. It's basically indecipherable to them, and gets ignored. Instead they look to Youtube examples like Matt Mercer, and to the WoTC-published hardback adventures. I recall Justin Alexander pointing this out. The 5e authors, Mearls & Crawford I guess, didn't understand the 'cultural information' they needed to transmit, basic* stuff like starting small, keying a dungeon (including stuff like monster & treasure placement), building your setting out from an initial kernel of dungeon + starter town. The Starter Set & (much moreso) the Essentials Kit are better in giving examples of a basic campaign setup, but there are no real instructions on how to do it. And WoTC seem deathly afraid of simply telling people what to do. And it has of course gotten much worse over time.

*Mentzer Red Box Basic D&D from 1983 still seems the best guide to actually getting started GMing. Mentzer's tone can be patronising, but better that than being afraid to give functional instructions.

There are instructions in the DMG. But they are buried under pages of useless gibbering half the time. As I keep saying. They spend alot of time saying very little.

You have to dig through to get the useful bits and it is not helped that platforms like Reddit keep telling DMs they do not need the DMG. Or bad advice on how to DM. Especially Matt Colville whom I stopped following as it became very apparent alot of his DMing advice is really bad. Railroading is good. Storygaming is good. Cheating is good. and on and on.

My vampires are always gonna be 30 Days of Nights bloodthirsty savages who rip and tear demihuman flesh in a gory revel of feasting.

Your paladin would be welcome at my table. It is right to destroy creatures of darkness.

Quote from: Brad on January 28, 2024, 08:13:30 PM
A paladin wanting to kill a vampire is now a bigot?

What the fuck...

Also NOT the PALADIN, the PLAYER. The PLAYER is a bigot because his paladin PC wants to kill a fucking vampire. Sounds like these clowns need a lobotomy.

This is probably the most fundamental principle of RPG.  You are portraying someone else.  It's like the movie poster for Forrest Gump that says, "Tom Hanks IS Forrest Gump".  That poster is a lie.  He's playing a role.  Ralph Waite played a slave trader in Roots.  That does not mean he's a racist.  Before the era of wokeness, no one was so dumb that we had to explain this to anyone.  Keifer Sutherland is not really a government agent who tortures people to get information out of them.  We role-play characters that do things we never would in real life, because we're CHARACTER ACTING in a FICTICIOUS SETTING.  Why don't these people let us game, and go cancel all the people who played the part of Hollywood villains for all the atrocities they've committed.

I said this in another thread and I'll say it here. Trigger warnings, X Cards, and consent forms all exist to police the people who came up with them or think it's a good idea. They have no emotional intelligence or control. They are bad people with childish attitudes who think other people are like them. They need to be TOLD not to be sexually inappropriate, told not to make rape jokes, told to be empathetic. Because they might actually do all those bad things unless they are told not to by an authority figure. They can not understand that other people might be smarter and more mature than them to the point of not needing to be told how to behave. Intuitively understanding the social contract so those bad things you shouldn't do go without saying.  These people never grew up and frankly they feel they can get away with the things they tell us not to do when they think no one is looking. Or even worse see those things as perfectly fine for them to do but not others because they're morally right. As we saw with Adam Koebol. 

That's exactly what I'm seeing from the stories posted in this thread. Do not game with those people. Let them have their little DnD. Just by virtue of playing ANY OTHER GAME (including earlier editions of DnD) you're going to repel those people. Because they were TOLD 5e was the most heckin valid game. And weren't TOLD anything about any other game so those are scary.

Quote from: Omega on January 30, 2024, 07:02:31 AM

Quote from: S'mon on January 30, 2024, 02:30:24 AM
One thing about 5e D&D is that the 5e DMG is really bad at instructing new GMs how to GM D&D. It's basically indecipherable to them, and gets ignored. Instead they look to Youtube examples like Matt Mercer, and to the WoTC-published hardback adventures. I recall Justin Alexander pointing this out. The 5e authors, Mearls & Crawford I guess, didn't understand the 'cultural information' they needed to transmit, basic* stuff like starting small, keying a dungeon (including stuff like monster & treasure placement), building your setting out from an initial kernel of dungeon + starter town. The Starter Set & (much moreso) the Essentials Kit are better in giving examples of a basic campaign setup, but there are no real instructions on how to do it. And WoTC seem deathly afraid of simply telling people what to do. And it has of course gotten much worse over time.

*Mentzer Red Box Basic D&D from 1983 still seems the best guide to actually getting started GMing. Mentzer's tone can be patronising, but better that than being afraid to give functional instructions.

There are instructions in the DMG. But they are buried under pages of useless gibbering half the time. As I keep saying. They spend alot of time saying very little.

You have to dig through to get the useful bits and it is not helped that platforms like Reddit keep telling DMs they do not need the DMG. Or bad advice on how to DM. Especially Matt Colville whom I stopped following as it became very apparent alot of his DMing advice is really bad. Railroading is good. Storygaming is good. Cheating is good. and on and on.

I still think the AD&D 1e DMG is the absolute best guide to being a dungeon master. Clear instructions in plain English that demystify so much. And it's applicable to any other game. Including 5e. One of the kids from the group I GM has really gotten into the old school mentality so I gave him my Dad's well loved and well worn 1e DMG to have a read through. And only a week later  he ran a game that I would say was better than anything a 5E GM could come up. I'm very proud of this kid and I think he's going to be a better GM for having read the 1e DMG. Which speaks to the power of that book. And how utterly shit the 5E DMG is.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 29, 2024, 09:41:52 PM
Summary of argument:

• disagree with ancillary statement (x-cards in a thread about triggers)
• uses personal anecdotes as if they preclude the general statement from being true
• ends with a rejection of dichotomy (it's not this or that; it's both!)

Who let the jhkim AIbot in the thread?

I always just thought he was a sycophant, but now that you're pointing it out, it is fucking ridiculously suspicious he just ALWAYS has a specific anecdote that disputes a general point. Like always. Say most of the trans people you've met are mentally ill? Welp, jhkim plays with two of them who are paragons of society and have PhDs in particle physics, hardly mentally ill!

Quote from: Brad on January 30, 2024, 08:50:56 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 29, 2024, 09:41:52 PM
Summary of argument:

• disagree with ancillary statement (x-cards in a thread about triggers)
• uses personal anecdotes as if they preclude the general statement from being true
• ends with a rejection of dichotomy (it's not this or that; it's both!)

Who let the jhkim AIbot in the thread?

I always just thought he was a sycophant, but now that you're pointing it out, it is fucking ridiculously suspicious he just ALWAYS has a specific anecdote that disputes a general point. Like always. Say most of the trans people you've met are mentally ill? Welp, jhkim plays with two of them who are paragons of society and have PhDs in particle physics, hardly mentally ill!

He doesn't have a single actual argument and everything he says boils down to the most anemic "both sides" fence sitting bullshit. It contributes nothing to any forum discussion. It just takes up space.

Also anyone who defends mentally ill people not getting the help they need to make themselves feel more moral are not the good people they think they are. And they always get pissed off when you point this out because they're more concerned with looking good than being good.

Quote from: S'mon on January 30, 2024, 02:30:24 AM
And WoTC seem deathly afraid of simply telling people what to do. And it has of course gotten much worse over time.

I think you're confusing "deathly afraid" with "intentionally keeping its customers dependent on an endless flow of published adventures".

Quote from: Cipher on January 29, 2024, 11:45:49 PM

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on January 29, 2024, 10:42:18 PM
I think you've got an interesting idea here. To that point, something I noticed reading the AD&D DM's guide was that it specifically noted how as the Dungeon Master you're expected to have a keen understanding of the rules a good base of experience to work off of. Sure, you could pick up the guide and start DMing from there, but it's pretty much implied that you have played at least a little bit before picking up the DM mantle.

However, like you mentioned, I think it comes from being taught how the game runs wrong. A lot of newer DMs are picking up the mantle with the mindset that the game is a thespian's game with grandiose stories. Most of them are mediocre story tellers, and when you combine that with little experience running the game you get a high school creative writer's take on Lord of the Rings.

It's like wanting to learn how to draw anime characters, and not learning the basics first: you end up skipping a lot of important drawing fundamentals to jump ahead and it ends up stunting your abilities in the long run. Then consider most will go on to teach others what they know and you get crappier results as that knowledge base propagates.

I believe the "thespian's game" idea is what is called the "Critical Role effect". They forget critical role is a show. Its produced to the gills to create those moments, much like so called "reality tv". It is not truly representative of how a gaming session will go down.

Although, I would also believe such ideas are juvenile naivete. I remember when I was 14 and I wanted to create a great plot for my Players and they did praise the "story" of our AD&D campaign as something that would make me rich if I wrote it and sold it as a book series. "The Next Tolkien!" they called me.

As I got older, I understood that the medium is at its best when the GM creates situations, not plots. Seeds and hooks, not stories. Create movers and shakers and a setting. Then, let the Players run wild. As a GM now I find much more enjoyment in being an audience. I want to be surprised by their actions. If they get themselves on a jam, I won't save them. I want to see how they get themselves out of that jam or perish.

And people told me how much better the games were then without realizing that its because I grew out of the idea of "creating the greatest story never told!" and started to play to the strengths of the medium.

I believe, as you said, so many of those DMs want to be writers or become rich with "the next Critical Role" show and so they focus on that instead on what makes roleplaying game adventures memorable.

Exactly! It's as if as DM you're pretty much just there to run the game and see what happens. When I first started running games like that, I found that it was a lot more exciting for me since I didn't have to plot and plan a bunch of contingencies. The players liked it because they had the freedom to do whatever they want without being tied to a plot. D&D, at its core, is all about adventure and the ordeals and ambitions that come with it. The moment you strip that away, the game gets weaker.

I had a similar train of thought when I started running games around the same age. I tried to come up with basic plotted stories and played around with those ideas, but when I ran Temple of Elemental Evil I found that the players enjoyed that style of game a lot more. They had all the choice in the world in where to go in the dungeon, how they wanted to tackle problems, and when they wanted to do just about anything. All I had to do was read the rooms and logically think how monsters would behave. It was really fun for both parties and I haven't turned back since.

Like you said, the Critical Role effect has had influence on how games are run. I also think part of it comes from the official modules too. Until recently, the modules that WotC have published are these massive level 1-15 or 1-10 mega-modules that have a vast overarching plot. A lot of newer DMs utilize these modules to learn how to make their own, and I think most new DMs feel pressured to match the plotlines and story presented in those large modules. That's not to say that older editions like AD&D or BECMI didn't have those story modules, but usually, as you mentioned, it's more of a scenario than a story.

Back in the 1990s, I had a friend who became a vegan.  He had always been kind of annoying, but after he became a vegan, he was insufferable.  If someone invited him over to eat, not only did he bring his fussy dietary restriction, but he would ask whether the food was cooked in a pan that had been used for meat, stuff like that.  One time, we went to the diner, and he ran the waitress ragged.  He had her go back to ask the cook all these questions about how and where the food was prepared. 

Watching him, I realized that the veganism wasn't actually the point.  The point was that he could use it to exert control over other people, and I realized that he had been trending in that direction the entire time I'd known him.  By which I mean he had always been bossy and fussy, but people mostly brushed him off or teased him about it.  But he discovered in veganism a way to make well-meaning people jump through hoops for him.  Not only that, but he could feel good about it, because it was all in the name of kindness.  (I stopped going out to eat with him, and people gradually stopped inviting him places.)

Trigger warnings, x-cards, and the like are, for the most part, ways for the same type of people to exert control over other well-meaning people, all in the name of kindness and empathy.

Quote from: daniel_ream on January 30, 2024, 09:15:38 AM

Quote from: S'mon on January 30, 2024, 02:30:24 AM
And WoTC seem deathly afraid of simply telling people what to do. And it has of course gotten much worse over time.

I think you're confusing "deathly afraid" with "intentionally keeping its customers dependent on an endless flow of published adventures".

I don't think they even make much money off those crappy adventures. I think they had PTSD from the 4e disaster. 4e took a strong stance on how to play, 5e wanted to be all things to everybody.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 30, 2024, 12:36:48 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 29, 2024, 09:48:52 PMThe idea that words are harmful is ridiculous on its face.

Well, that's not entirely true, as cyberbullying victims can attest. But like everything else about the issue, it's taking a contextual reality and twisting it into an absolute precept that can then be used as a club to morally browbeat anybody who says something one merely dislikes.

Words and speech can inflict real and significant psychological damage, but it takes time, repetition, and personalized malice, usually combined with a prisoning environment which the target is unable to escape for whatever reason.

Bullshit. You have a choice: either you let it or you don't. Simple as that. You choose to be a victim of verbal abuse or you don't.
I know this from personal experience, for me and others I know.

Those who CHOOSE to let it WANT to play the victim because of their narcissism.

Those who don't choose to let it get to them either put it behind them and move on OR they ask for help.

I'm sorry, but I can't abide by the "oh poor is me!" narrative.

It's all about choice.

Quote from: I on January 30, 2024, 01:32:28 AM

Quote from: Omega on January 30, 2024, 12:20:13 AM

Quote from: Brad on January 28, 2024, 08:13:30 PM
A paladin wanting to kill a vampire is now a bigot?

What the fuck...

Also NOT the PALADIN, the PLAYER. The PLAYER is a bigot because his paladin PC wants to kill a fucking vampire. Sounds like these clowns need a lobotomy.

I was told once on BGG deadly serious, that "Dwarves liking beer was racist." There is no limit on how stupid these nuts can get. NO LIMIT. That exploring Africa in a board game was "Promoting Genocide." and the poor guys game got cancelled. Someone else claiming they would not play any game that had leather in it because they were vegans. NO LIMIT.

You're right about the no limit thing.  They think being on time for work, drinking milk, and math are all indicators of a white supremacist mindset.  They LOOK for shit to complain about.  I mean, check this crap out:

https://theconversation.com/why-are-so-many-robots-white-213336

Yes, plastic white robots trigger them too.  But if we made them black or red or yellow or brown, they'd claim that was racist because the robots are servants of a sort and therefore we'd be projecting our racist ideas of servitude.  It's like the "words are violence" thing, but also "silence = violence."  There's no way to win with these people.  Which is kind of the point:  they revel in being victims, and complaining is their main joy in life.

That's hilarious, because I'm sure the REAL reason is that when it comes to plastics, the vast majority of them when adding a pigment, the cheapest and most accessible is white. I know this because I've worked in the electronics industry on and off for 20 years. Otherwise, injected molded plastics are either grey or.....black.