I've been eyeballing the Absolute Power RPG. And it uses Tri-Stat.
Anyone here have some experience with it? I know BESM is run on it. How does it handle? Pitfalls? What does it do well? How does task-resolution work? Is it good for long-term campaigning? Sandbox?
Short answer to remind myself to give you a longer/better one later. I played Silver Age Sentinels quite a bit, a lot of BESM (mostly the robot one) and the Tekumel game, so I've seen the system in action in various genres. It's a good system for anime, the original implementation. It is not a good universal system, in my opinion. Much like how HERO is really good for making supers and GURPS is excellent for gritty fantasy, TriStat is anime focused at its roots. It is definitely serviceable for other genres, but the underlying system lends to a certain style that might not be fully applicable. What it does well is allow for running games quickly with characters that are easily understood and defined and easy to run for newbies. Larger dice for rolls is intuitive to understand.
Stopping here because I need to think about this a bit more, but honestly if you like Savage Worlds I don't think TriStat is going to do much for you unless you want to run a Voltron or Power Rangers style game.
Less stats make it easier to build a strong character by focusing on one stat rather than 2-3 stats and conversely it makes it harder to have a dump stat that you can attack as a DM.
It's been a while. I really wanted to like Tri-stat DX, but it just didn't work out.
The Good (?)
At the time, it was liter than the other two supers games (M&M and Hero.)
It was sort of like Gurps on a diet. Roll-under, active dodge rolls, point-buy, advantages and disadvantages.
The 2d10 curve is a nice mechanic.
It combines Powers and Advantages into one list, which is interesting (What's your superpower? I'm rich.)
Unlike Gurps or Hero, there are no personality flaws, so you don't get extra points for "overconfident and curious."
The Bad (?)
Didn't like the three attribute concept, especially Body combining STR and AGI, a dichotomy which is a big thing in supers games. They created a "less capable" defect, where characters like the Hulk have a "High Body, but less capable in Agility" and Daredevil has a "High Body, but less capable in Strength." It seemed contrived and annoying.
Powers can be augmented with a universal Power Modifier Table, to increase their range, duration, targets, etc. We never played around much with this, but it looked highly abuse-able. Given that the game preface contains a manifesto that preaches "there are no problem rules, only problem players" they no doubt anticipated abuse.
Damage is a flat value, and then you roll dice to see if you do 100%, 75%, 50%, etc. of that. Felt sort of weird.
The dice scaling for genres seemed like a gimmick (2d6 for human level, 2d8 for action adventure, 2d10 for supers.) Seems like it would have been easier just to pick one dice mechanic and set different max levels for the traits.
Yeah, agreeing with Aglondir's Cons: having only three stats felt wrong. I'm in the "more Abilities is better" camp. Which sucks 'cuz I really wanted to like The Authority RPG after the Bryan Hitch art reeled me in. Probably need to convert it to Marvel Super Heroes at some point ::)
Huh, body/mind/soul sounds bad... STR/AGI/INT would be much better, but I think four stats is about the minimum for me.
My main exposure to Tri-stat was from one of my players who was into their BESM RPG and so had a look at it.
Pros: Very flexible system. BESM had books covering all sorts of genres.
Cons: Very flexible system. Like gurps you need to both know the system well to get it to do what you want, and know what branches to prune from player access.
Would adding relevant stats help?
Quote from: tenbones on May 18, 2023, 05:05:21 PM
Would adding relevant stats help?
Maybe, but it's going to cascade downwards. I started an attempt:
1. Body -> STR and DEX
2. Mind -> INT and PER
3. Soul - > CHA and WIL
4. Attack Value... Instead of explaining it, I will just quote the game's mumbo-jumbo:
QuoteIncreased skill in combat can only be achieved through harmony of the Complete Self. Lack of self-unity through weakness of any facet of the character will restrict his or her ability in combat. Consequently, the Body, Mind, and Soul are all of equal importance to the combat master: Body Stat for a forceful attack and defence, Mind Stat for quick wit, knowledge of combat techniques and anticipation of an opponent's actions, and Soul Stat for the winning spirit and good fortune.
Basically your Attack Value = (B+M+S)/3. if you like that concept, then the new way would be (sum of all atts)/6. If you want a more classic approach, your AV for close combat = STR, and AV for ranged combat = DEX.
5. Defense Value (AV-2) stays the same if you like the mumbo-jumbo, or becomes DEX-2 if you like a classic approach.
6. HP (previously B+S*5) becomes STR + WIL * 5.
At this point, I think it's a different game. Better? Worse? You decide.
Quote from: Theory of Games on May 18, 2023, 11:09:19 AM
Yeah, agreeing with Aglondir's Cons: having only three stats felt wrong. I'm in the "more Abilities is better" camp. Which sucks 'cuz I really wanted to like The Authority RPG after the Bryan Hitch art reeled me in. Probably need to convert it to Marvel Super Heroes at some point ::)
I have
The Authority! Love the art and the stories behind the comics. Yeah, an MSH version would rock. I also have their cyberpunk game,
Ex Machina. It's got some cool ideas for campaigns. Might be dated by now, it's been a while.
Quote from: tenbones on May 17, 2023, 09:29:22 PM
I've been eyeballing the Absolute Power RPG. And it uses Tri-Stat.
Anyone here have some experience with it? I know BESM is run on it. How does it handle? Pitfalls? What does it do well? How does task-resolution work? Is it good for long-term campaigning? Sandbox?
If point-buy character and ability creation is your thing ala GURPS, M&M, or HERO, Tri-Stat falls within the same camp.
Never have played Absolute Power RPG, but I think it's like a second edition of Silver Age Sentinels. The switch from 2d6 to 2d10 seemed nonsensical, especially since BESM (the original Tri-Stat game) went roll-over from 3e onwards.
I also suspect that the abilities between Absolute Power and BESM 4e are nearly identical. If that's the case, then modifying abilities is pretty easy: each modifier will effectively lower the level of the ability (if beneficial) or raise the level of the ability (if detrimental) in lieu of modifying its cost.
Other than that, I'd suspect that it has a very similar amount of viability towards long-term campaigns as either HERO, GURPS, or M&M (if it still uses 2d10 due to the larger number range). But then again, we're talking about supers, which are notorious for being largely static in ability and reactive and status-quo oriented.
My experience with Tri-Stat (BESM, SAS) is that while technically you can make any character with the building blocks provided, in practice it isn't obvious how you should do it. The old GoO boards were full of posts asking how to stat up a particular character concept. I don't know if there's an active community helping people realize build concepts with Tri-Stat nowadays.
Quote from: migo on May 19, 2023, 03:19:03 AM
My experience with Tri-Stat (BESM, SAS) is that while technically you can make any character with the building blocks provided, in practice it isn't obvious how you should do it. The old GoO boards were full of posts asking how to stat up a particular character concept. I don't know if there's an active community helping people realize build concepts with Tri-Stat nowadays.
Mark MacKinnon (the creator of Tri-Stat and the product lines that use it) is most likely a great contributor to the lack of a community of people rralizong build concepts with Tri-Stat due to his notoriety for not paying freelancers who worked for him in the past.
Quote from: ronwisegamgee on May 19, 2023, 06:02:41 AM
Mark MacKinnon (the creator of Tri-Stat and the product lines that use it) is most likely a great contributor to the lack of a community of people rralizong build concepts with Tri-Stat due to his notoriety for not paying freelancers who worked for him in the past.
Ah, I forgot all about that shit!
The most recent version of Tri-Stat was released with SAS as a generic game last year. (Disclaimer: DTRPG links are affiliate links.)
Gone are the different dice for scaling. Everything uses 2D6 now. Instead of modifiers, you have;
Major Obstacle = Roll 4d6, take two lowest results.
Minor Obstacle = Roll 3d6, take two lowest results.
Normal Roll = Roll 2d6 + Stat + Skill (if used)
Minor Edge = Roll 3d6, take two highest results.
Major Edge = Roll 4d6, take two highest results.
You can see a screenshot of the target numbers and margin of success in this Google Drive (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FVIlziOMlkqmEbjH5sc4Ohf4ewnYifRk?usp=sharing).
The Tri-Stat PDF (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/388500/TriStat-Core-RolePlaying-Game-System--JPG840?affiliate_id=6962) is cheap (7.95) and the printed book is 14.95 on the Dyskami Publishing (https://www.dyskami.ca/index.html) site.
It's not a super complicated game. The most complicated is customizing Attributes (powers). Skills are essentially Attributes and default to groups in the base game. The new BESM Extras (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/340607/BESM-Extras-Big-Eyes-Small-Mouth?affiliate_id=6962) book (compatible with Tri-Stat and Silver Age Sentinels) has tons of options within, including the skill list and costing options from the previous edition.
I like the Attributes. They remind me of HERO but WAY less fidgety and complicated. The character sheet obscures a little of the complexity. I built a Google Sheets (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/15S29oH2pX2o_3agpEF8MLm-wRPKaPd0j?usp=sharing) version inspired by a fan-made sheet on the InterTubes. It includes room for the optional Skills system (which I prefer).
You can see a list of Attributes (screenshot) in the google drive linked above.
I think this would work fine as a generic system. Especially if you show up with the generic Tri-Stat game and reference BESM or SAS when you need other options or Attributes. I have not played the new edition. After my move, I would be interested in running a game online and see how it plays. It reads as if it plays fast.
Other News: Mark doesn't seem to have a lot of love in the industry, but the game seems to be doing ok. Not a lot of buzz out there about it (actual plays, discussion, or reviews). It has a program you can publish on DTRPG with it and freely downloadable assets to use for that program. Only one real release thus far; three cyberpunk books that comprise a generic primer on the genre.
I own Silver Age Sentinels, and BESM as well. Sentinels had amazing production values, but at the core of it, the three stats just didn't work for me.
Once I got my hands on Mutants & Masterminds, which did work for me, SAS was immediately shelved,
I think the best version of the Tri-Stat System was the Heaven & Earth version. It uses cards instead of dice and let the players make some interesting choices in how they used those cards. You had a hand of 3 and got to use one, discard one and keep one. It let them decide which actions were worth passing or failing and maybe save a card for the future where they would need it. It was a Twin Peaks like setting, but I could see it being used for something more heroic.
I also wanted to like the system yet found something distinctly unappealing about it. Then switched to M&M.
Not a fan of how they're super-inventionnpowr ( basically build any device) in game. They gave no real rules and expected the GM to handwaive everything. Combined with their every decreasing production values and inability to support their game lines at the time turned me off. I nicknamed the GONS. Guardians of non-support.
They thought no one would notice the decline in production values and really hated to hear any negative feedback. One of their final products a book on female superheroes called Country Matters art looked like it was doodled by some high schooler on his lunch breaks. Not to mention the bad name. Then Marc financial mismanagement came out and it killed any interest I had in the system. Made worse when other writers in the hobby made and keep making excuses for his past behaviour.
Quote from: trechriron on May 20, 2023, 01:16:29 AM
The most recent version of Tri-Stat was released with SAS as a generic game last year. (Disclaimer: DTRPG links are affiliate links.)
I wasn't aware there was a revised system... as such, most of my observations from the old system (in the posts above) are probably irrelevant.
Quote from: tenbones on May 18, 2023, 05:05:21 PM
Would adding relevant stats help?
Honestly no.
Why?
Because the system allows you to effectively make custom stats to cover whatever. It is remarkably flexible in that respect. But like with gurps it can be a boon or a bane or just a stumbling block.
Quote from: Abraxus on May 21, 2023, 08:35:04 AM
I also wanted to like the system yet found something distinctly unappealing about it. Then switched to M&M.
Not a fan of how they're super-inventionnpowr ( basically build any device) in game. They gave no real rules and expected the GM to handwaive everything. Combined with their every decreasing production values and inability to support their game lines at the time turned me off. I nicknamed the GONS. Guardians of non-support.
They thought no one would notice the decline in production values and really hated to hear any negative feedback. One of their final products a book on female superheroes called Country Matters art looked like it was doodled by some high schooler on his lunch breaks. Not to mention the bad name. Then Marc financial mismanagement came out and it killed any interest I had in the system. Made worse when other writers in the hobby made and keep making excuses for his past behaviour.
That is BESM's strength and weakness. It is really freeform. And it puts even more pressure on the DM than gurps it feels as its even more "do anything" a system.
The focused setting books tended to help alot by doing a bunch of the footwork.
I think that BESM 4E is a better game than BESM 2E or 3E. Tri-Stat Core RPG (the current version) has (almost) all the rules from BESM 4E and BESM Extras in one small inexpensive book without much art. Unfortunately it doesn't have the examples from BESM 4E and BESM Extras, which are quite useful in figuring out how to do things. Absolute Power replaces the anime trappings with superhero trappings and support material, but uses the same system. Note that Tri-Stat Core RPG is considerably closer to BESM 4E than Tri-Stat dX (the previous version) was to BESM 2E; revised mechanics make 2d6 work better at various power scales, so the change to 2d10 in Silver Sentinels and the arbitrary 2dX in Tri-Stat dX isn't necessary.
If you don't like the anime trappings of BESM, The Tri-Stat Core RPG book has all the rules you need without the anime trappings. Without those, it's pretty clear that it is a generic point buy effects based RPG suitable for anything. I don't think that using Tri-Stat (or even BESM) forces a game to be Anime, although it certainly works well for that. (I'm currently slowly working through converting Centauri Knights to BESM 4E, and I think that playing that need not be forced into a anime mold: a bit of cyberpunk, a bit of transhumanism, a bit of exploring alien civilization, with several different modes of play.)
I think that the current Tri-Stat based games are mechanically simpler than GURPS or Hero or Ascendant, so for me that makes it easier to build characters. I agree that the free form nature of character generation can be a problem; that's where the examples from the BESM 4E books help a lot. They essentially have templates for character archetypes and ancestries, which you can combine and have most of character creation done. The examples of Items (weapons, mecha, artifacts, etc.) are also useful in showing how things are built. I think that a BESM GM running a game would be well advises to spend some time selecting or building such templates to give to their players to make character creation easier, since combining templates will be enough for some players, and the ones who want to dig into the depths of character generation it shows both how things are done but also the kind of things that reasonable for the specific game they are to play.