Supplement 4: Citizens of the Imperium added around half a dozen more careers.  Barbarian, Hunter, Scientist, Bureaucrat, Diplomat, Noble, Belter, am I missing any?

Anyhow, T5's character creation has some pretty broad careers with lots of options.  It's really neat but I miss the simple flow through chart sometimes.  I think that's part of why T4 will always be my favorite, despite its many issues, it had the cleanest character creation with the best range of skills and careers + schools.  T5 may be the ultimate manifestation of Traveller but it's got every dial turned to 11 and the distortion is distracting.

Quote from: DavetheLost;855097I specifically said three or more bodies require more than three points. Three or fewer will define a plane, more than three will not.  Facing and inertia do not change the fact that any three objects will define a plane. The plane may change (relative to a fixed arbitrary X,Y,Z axis system), but its existance will not.

But facing tells you whether the object in the plane with you is also in the 3D arc of your weapon or whether you are properly lined up with the docking bay on the ventral surface of the carrier ship or with the weapon hardpoints on the dorsal surface. Simplifying so that none of that matters does make 2D movement less unrealistic (by virtue of making other things more unrealistic).

QuoteI still remain unconvinced that tracking 3D motion is worth the extra work for game play. And, yes, I have played table top miniatures games with several systems of 3 dimensional movement.

OK. I don't need to convince you. I prefer 3D movement. And in my experience it is extremely rare to have space combat with only 2 or 3 objects involved. But whatever floats your grav-boat.

Quote from: GameDaddy;855193You mean you never stacked Traveller maps? I'd just stack them and add z-axis jump routes to create 3d space.

Nope. Never did that. How did you deal with jump routes from higher to lower maps?

One of the things I really liked about Space Quest (and otherwise pretty goofy D&D inspired space opera game) was the 3D star maps you created. 2D sectors and jump routes just don't work well for me. It always makes me think we are playing Wooden Ships and Iron Men or something. For hex maps, I liked the spiral up and down system from the board game Godsfire. Movement wasn't % accurate (but neither is hex movement) but it was more accurate while still being simple.

Traveller was my first RPG love in 1977. Unfortunately she never loved me back, and eventually I moved on. She still has a tender place in my heart - I can't stand to toss all those little black books, and they still take up space on my shelf - but like Pygmalion, I sculpted my own vision and fell in love with it. Skimmed the LBBs for about an hour a few years back, but I am not much of one for nostalgia, and there is nothing for me there now.

-clash

Quote from: Omega;855086Traveller hit a-lot of the right buttons and it was effectively the first to try things like the life path concept. Combined with its semi-hard fiction setting and you have something that just clicks for some players.

Whereas Megatraveller seems to have hit a few of the wrong buttons.

TNE came with more wrong buttons.
T4 had even more.
T5 was covered with wrong buttons.

Quote from: DavetheLost;855097I still remain unconvinced that tracking 3D motion is worth the extra work for game play. And, yes, I have played table top miniatures games with several systems of 3 dimensional movement.

Adding the third dimension seems like the way to do but actually isn't. Because in reality what matter in space combat is delta-vee.

Delta-vee is the total change in velocity at space can do before running out of fuel. It can also be looked as a change in velocity over time which is important for when your total is effectively unlimited.

Every maneuver in space require X delta-vee in Y time for it to happen. If the craft can't do that it can't do the maneuver. This particularly important when you near a significant gravitational source. For example you have two opposing starships in orbit around a planet.

If the orbit of the two starship are co-planar then that determines a list of viable manuevuers they can use against each other. If their orbits are out of plane with each then they are limited to another set of manuevuers. It is similar to the idea of energy management in dog fighting aircraft.

What does this mean for gaming? Well it can make for a much less involved form of starship combat. With the players tracking just a few numbers of a delta-vee budget. It especially works well with RPG starship combat where the focus is on on PC starship versus NPC enemy starships.

For me I do most of it in my help with the starship stats as a guide. This is because my other hobby is writing historically accurate spacecraft for space simulators (like this this list http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/). I flew hundreds of mission in testing out my add-ons. If you want exact number I will have to the math. But ballparkwise I know how thing work under circumstances in space.

For example if the two starships are out of plane while orbit around a planet it is very difficult for one to get a shot or approach the other craft. This is because it takes a lot of energy over a short time to shift the plane of your orbit and if you are not co-planar you will be approaching each other at a very high rate of speed without any effective way of meaningfully slowing down relative to each other.

However if you are close to the orbital plane of your enemy then it is possible to approach him at whatever speed you think best. The maneuvering will be mostly about fighting for the right time to take the best shop by raising and lowering the orbit so that the two crafts intersect in such a way that is best for the shot.

Quote from: Bren;855238But facing tells you whether the object in the plane with you is also in the 3D arc of your weapon or whether you are properly lined up with the docking bay on the ventral surface of the carrier ship or with the weapon hardpoints on the dorsal surface. Simplifying so that none of that matters does make 2D movement less unrealistic (by virtue of making other things more unrealistic).

What important especially around a planet is the path of your orbit. For example if your orbit is not close to the plane of your target orbit there no way for even most fictional spacecraft to slow down fast enough to approach without going too fast. Even if you time your orbit right for an interception.

Facing is not that important as most spacecraft can be built to rotate quickly around their center of mass. It not like aircraft where they have to point forward in order to remain airborne.

Quote from: estar;855282Facing is not that important as most spacecraft can be built to rotate quickly around their center of mass. It not like aircraft where they have to point forward in order to remain airborne.

Like pretty much everything, that depends. Rotating quickly around your center of mass is a problem if it turns the crew's brains to jelly in their seat,  tosses them around the ship like broken straws because no one was strapped in, or stresses the ship's frame.

Quote from: estar;855282What important especially around a planet is the path of your orbit. For example if your orbit is not close to the plane of your target orbit there no way for even most fictional spacecraft to slow down fast enough to approach without going too fast. Even if you time your orbit right for an interception.

Facing is not that important as most spacecraft can be built to rotate quickly around their center of mass. It not like aircraft where they have to point forward in order to remain airborne.

Exactly. Spacecraft are essentially big turrets.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;855268TNE came with more wrong buttons.
T4 had even more.
T5 was covered with wrong buttons.

For me it's just that too many of the buttons still put out the wrong results when they're pushed.  I love it in principle but it still gives odd results.  They're all things that can be fixed but then they're house ruled and unofficial.

For instance if you assume the Heavy class makes vehicle mounts twice as large as the ones listed in Vehicle Maker then you can make a tank with a gun that can penetrate another tank's armor.  As written you can't.  Not only that but the weapon mounts on an ultra light flier have the exact same limitations as the tank.

If I had to guess it'd be a case of I just write them I don't user or play them.

Quote from: flyingmice;855285Exactly. Spacecraft are essentially big turrets.

They can be pretty slow tracking turrets, especially with large ships.  But Traveller has always assumed that ships rotate to bring guns to bear.  It's also favoured abstract combat over mapped combat.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;855268TNE came with more wrong buttons.
T4 had even more.
T5 was covered with wrong buttons.

They might be the wrong buttons for you, but they're the right buttons for me.

One thing I think hasn't been really touched on in this thread is the "Feel" of traveller.

I'd call it "Medium Sci-Fi" as opposed to hard or soft sci-fi. The official 3rd Imperium setting that is. It's inspired buy Golden Age Science Fiction. It's Imperial/Colonial in theme. Is definitely pre "New-Wave" Sci-Fi. And to me always felt like the year 1850 (pre-telegraph) in space. The Age of the Great Empires is very much alive, travel to the far flung parts of the empire is slow and arduous. There is no faster than light travel or communications.

I was just writing up on my own by chance,  a list of things that make "Traveller" Sci-Fi feel different than other Sci-Fi settings. I'll paste below what I have so far.

Books that heavily inspired the original authors
E.C. Tubb -  The Dumarest of Terra novels (The Winds of Gath)
H. Beam Piper - Space Viking, Uller Uprising, Terro-Human

Books that almost for sure inspired the original authors
Bertram Chandler - John Grimes series (Scout service, then Merchant, then Pirate)
Bertram Chandler - Rim World series
Issac Asimov - Foundation series
Poul Anderson - Polysotechnic/Technic League, Flandry novels, Van Rijn novels
Heinlein - Rocket Ship Calileo, Space Cadet
Niven & Pournell - Mote in Gods Eye, CoDominion series
Jerry Pournelle - Falkenburgs Legion, War World, Jannisaries series
Jerry Pournelle - King Davids Spaceship (3rd empire re-expansion period)
Larry Niven - Ringworld stories, Neutron Star, Tales of Known space stories.
David Drake - Hammers Slammers (though more 2300AD leaning)

Traveller 3rd Imperium tropes
Imperial Science Fiction
More Golden Age Sci-Fi though with some advances.
Hard’ish Sci-Fi.
Definitely not Science Fantasy like Star Wars
Not at all New Wave Sci-Fi. (No psychodelia)
More Noir and shades of grey then Black & White morality of Star Wars
Hard Boiled sentiments, criminal activity and easy violence
Space version of the Great Age of Empires (1850’s to 1914)
Space 1889 themes and feels are common. Just not the steam tech feel.
Feudal, Imperial, Colonial governments as travel/com times are so long
1945-65 (Pre-Star Wars) view of what future tech would be like
Libertarian themes (Sword Worlds)
No faster than light travel or communications
No Mechs
Artificial Gravity exists, but only at higher tech levels
Floating Cities, Grav cars, Grav tanks at higher tech levels
Varying Tech levels across worlds. Some stone age, some pre-industrial, some almost at the level of the Ancients.
Robots may be common but AI is not
Asimov’s I-Robot though would fit in the setting
Computers can be powerful but are always large by todays standards.
VR might exist? but not the focus of the game.
Holograms exist but are not the focus of the game.
Small tablets exist but must be slaved to static computer.
No smart phones, instead Dick Tracy watches.
No internet, but sort of with the Library Data databases. 1000’s of planetary DB’s
Not focused on Bionics but does exist. No Cyborg Commandoes.
Not focused on Genetic Engineering but it does exist. No Juicers.
Cyberpunk is anathema to the setting. Not what it’s about.
Not Transhumanisim. Galactic Imperial Sci-Fi.
Many Sapient Aliens, some very bizarre, but few with space empires of their own.
Varying tech levels across space.
Psionics exist though are very rare and are more subtle than Marvel Comics powers.
Characters are Conquistadores, Mercenaries, Freebooters, Explorers, Merchants, Salvagers, Entrepreneurs, Adventurers, Rogues, Troubleshooters, Spies, Archeologists, Smugglers, Criminals, Scientists, Contractors for Hire.
Often the players will be doing criminal acts, be it for their own purposes or as Robin-hoods.
Action and Adventure more than High Concept or Morality plays
Patrons are the adventure givers, hiring the players for some task.
Mega Corporations more powerful than small stellar states exist.
Modelled after the British East India company or the Hudson's Bay company.
Mega Corps are the Government, Police, Army, Medical services in many systems.
The “Ancients” seeded the nearby galactic arm with uplifted sonphonts.
Several varieties of Human exist because of this.
Vargr and Aslan also exist as a result of this.

Quote from: Bren;855283Like pretty much everything, that depends. Rotating quickly around your center of mass is a problem if it turns the crew's brains to jelly in their seat,  tosses them around the ship like broken straws because no one was strapped in, or stresses the ship's frame.

Yes but what are talking about here in terms of time scales? Most starship combats games the turns are in terms of units like 15 minutes, 1 hours, etc. Not seconds like melee combat.

Traveller ship to ship combat has always been pretty slow paced and long ranged.  100 000s of kilometers, Gs of acceleration, hours of nail biting while trying to pick the enemy ship out of the background radiation.  Yes I know, infrared cameras totally invalidate that.  Be very very quiet, I'm hunting submarines.

Quote from: Gwarh;855302One thing I think hasn't been really touched on in this thread is the "Feel" of traveller.

I'd call it "Medium Sci-Fi" as opposed to hard or soft sci-fi. The official 3rd Imperium setting that is. It's inspired buy Golden Age Science Fiction. It's Imperial/Colonial in theme. Is definitely pre "New-Wave" Sci-Fi. And to me always felt like the year 1850 (pre-telegraph) in space. The Age of the Great Empires is very much alive, travel to the far flung parts of the empire is slow and arduous. There is no faster than light travel or communications.

...

Books that heavily inspired the original authors
E.C. Tubb -  The Dumarest of Terra novels (The Winds of Gath)
H. Beam Piper - Space Viking, Uller Uprising, Terro-Human

Books that almost for sure inspired the original authors
Bertram Chandler - John Grimes series (Scout service, then Merchant, then Pirate)
Bertram Chandler - Rim World series
Issac Asimov - Foundation series
Poul Anderson - Polysotechnic/Technic League, Flandry novels, Van Rijn novels
Heinlein - Rocket Ship Calileo, Space Cadet
Niven & Pournell - Mote in Gods Eye, CoDominion series
Jerry Pournelle - Falkenburgs Legion, War World, Jannisaries series
Jerry Pournelle - King Davids Spaceship (3rd empire re-expansion period)
Larry Niven - Ringworld stories, Neutron Star, Tales of Known space stories.
David Drake - Hammers Slammers (though more 2300AD leaning)

That's interesting, becuase I have always thought of Traveller as more Hard Sci-Fi, rather than Golden Age Sci-Fi.

Lots of these were inspirational for my earlier games, but so was plenty of hard Sci-Fi stories and artwork from Analog magazine and Isaac Asimov magazine as well as Terran Trade Authority illustrated starship books.

Also a few great sci-fi authors overlooked here...
Andre Norton - the Witchworld series (An inspiration for my early pre 1980's D&D/Traveller crossover game).

Fred Saberhagen's Beserker series...

Anything by Poul Anderson is still very hard SF. Everyone mentions David Falkayn and Nichlos van Rijn. No one remembers the Turing AI's. Almost no one remembers the Puppeteers with their Indestructible starship hulls... Well almost Indestructible. Louis Wu figured out that the tidal forces of a Neutron Star or Black hole are capable of reaching through a puppeteer starship hull to kill everything inside the hull and warped it. All of this. Total hard science. and added to my Traveller campaigns.

Arthur C Clarke - Rendezvous with Rama
Joe Haldeman - The Forever War (Also a war where Nuclear weapons were routinely issued to infantry platoons)
Greg Bear - Blood Music (A later sci-fi entry but good nonetheless)
Hal Clement - Mission of Gravity
Frederik Pohl - Gateway
The Blue World - Jack Vance
Starship Troopers - Robert A. Heinlein
Dune - Frank Herbert
A Canticle for Leibowitz - Walter M. Miller Jr.
Slan - A.E. van Vogt
The Rediscovery of Man - Cordwainer Smith
The Space Merchants - Frederik Pohl
Little Fuzzy - H Beam Piper
Triplanetary - E.E. Smith
Stand on Zanzibar - John Brunner
Babel-17 by Samuel R. Delany

This last is one of my personal favorites... During an interstellar war one side develops a language, Babel-17, that can be used as a weapon. Learning it turns one into an unwilling traitor as it alters perception and thought. The change is made more dangerous by the language's seductive enhancement of other abilities. This is discovered by the beautiful starship captain, linguist, poet, and telepath Rydra Wong. She is recruited by her government to discover how the enemy are infiltrating and sabotaging strategic sites. Initially Babel-17 is thought to be a code used by enemy agents. Rydra Wong realizes it is a language, and finds herself becoming a traitor as she learns it. She is rescued by her dedicated crew, figures out the danger, and neutralizes its effects.

The novel deals with several issues related to the peculiarities of language, how conditions of life shape the formation of words and meaning, and how the words themselves can shape the actions of people.

These are all hard science Sci-Fi books from the Classical Sci-Fi age 1940-1965 that completely fit in with Traveller, and from which Traveller was built.

You damn kids don't get off my lawn. Instead lay around on my lawn, and read some of the real sci-fi classics, and get truly inspired while I fire up the Barbecue grill for a right and proper outdoor party!