Gronan, and Jeff you are both wrong as to what the problem is.

@Jeff the problem is not the math but rather the wrong math is being applied. And frankly the right math in this situation is just that hard and convoluted especially for constant acceleration. Even with all the experience I have with writing realistic simulation of historical spacecraft, ultimately I rely on the genius of a half dozen wunkerking who not only know the math but can right a useful software utility to calculate what i need to know based on the situation at hand.

@Gronan sure we can make up shit and use our Bergenholms and Spindizzies. But just like some if not the majority of D&D settings don't have rivers flowing uphill. It would be nice to describe and adjudicate space travel as it is actually is. Even if the actual math is not done.

Quote from: jeff37923;859725OK, we got it. You are a highly educated twat who thinks his opinion should be respected, but math scares you.

Naw, I'm with Gronan. My degree and background are solidly in science but when I sit down to a scifi game I'm not looking for a bunch of guys who can't resist spending the entire session warbling on about the technicalities of what's going on.
Unfortunately that's too often been my experience of what hard/firm/barely erect scifi RPGs fall into. During the last session of Shadowrun I played in, the OCD player, who'd worked for six months hawking cell phones, brought everything to a halt because he had a mentally painful disconnect with the inaccuracy of the setting's assumptions about telecommunications.

'Hard' scifi games seem to attract guys with inner Sheldons who can't keep their slide-rule in their pants.
It's functionally no different than the jerks who ruined a zombie apocalypse game I was in by ranting at the GM because he'd gotten the layout of the Denver airport wrong... or the guy in our current Traveller game who keeps bringing up his stint in 'Special Forces' to point out why our plans suck.
For whatever reason I don't run into that crap nearly as much in non-modern fantasy games (even though our plans there also suck).

Quote from: Bren;859731Dick Seaton would like a word with you on that exact point. Hold on a moment while he puts down his slide rule.

I have a small lathe and milling machine over here, you can cut the cams for your ship's robot brain.

Quote from: estar;859734@Gronan sure we can make up shit and use our Bergenholms and Spindizzies. But just like some if not the majority of D&D settings don't have rivers flowing uphill. It would be nice to describe and adjudicate space travel as it is actually is. Even if the actual math is not done.

But we don't know what actual FTL would be like.

A one-time table of times is all that's needed.  It takes * poit * three days to get to Naboo from Alderaan, and *poit * four days from Alderaan to Tatooine.

And if your ships are fast enough sub-light to travel in-system in hours instead of months, navigation between planets is going to be more like driving a car than anything else.  Just roll dice to see if the planet happens to be close or far away when you come out of Aetherwarp.

Quote from: estar;859734@Jeff the problem is not the math but rather the wrong math is being applied. And frankly the right math in this situation is just that hard and convoluted especially for constant acceleration. Even with all the experience I have with writing realistic simulation of historical spacecraft, ultimately I rely on the genius of a half dozen wunkerking who not only know the math but can right a useful software utility to calculate what i need to know based on the situation at hand.

I got that, but the math is close enough for most Traveller players. Sonofabitch, it is basic algebra that was taught in Middle School. If that is too much for someone then they are probably playing the wrong game for their  enjoyment.

Quote from: Simlasa;859735Naw, I'm with Gronan. My degree and background are solidly in science but when I sit down to a scifi game I'm not looking for a bunch of guys who can't resist spending the entire session warbling on about the technicalities of what's going on.
Unfortunately that's too often been my experience of what hard/firm/barely erect scifi RPGs fall into. During the last session of Shadowrun I played in, the OCD player, who'd worked for six months hawking cell phones, brought everything to a halt because he had mentally painful disconnect with the inaccuracy of the setting's assumptions about telecommunications.

'Hard' scifi games seem to attract guys with inner Sheldons who can't keep their slide-rule in their pants.
It's functionally no different than the jerks who ruined a zombie apocalypse game I was in by ranting at the GM because he'd gotten the layout of the Denver airport wrong... or the guy in our current Traveller game who keeps bringing up his stint in 'Special Forces' to point out why our plans suck.
For whatever reason I don't run into that crap nearly as much in non-modern fantasy games (even though our plans there also suck).

What you just described is not a game problem, it is a player problem. You knew this guy was OCD, so why let him damage the game you are running?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859736I have a small lathe and milling machine over here, you can cut the cams for your ship's robot brain.

Maybe you could build a ghost writer for your book.....

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859737But we don't know what actual FTL would be like.

A one-time table of times is all that's needed.  It takes * poit * three days to get to Naboo from Alderaan, and *poit * four days from Alderaan to Tatooine.

And if your ships are fast enough sub-light to travel in-system in hours instead of months, navigation between planets is going to be more like driving a car than anything else.  Just roll dice to see if the planet happens to be close or far away when you come out of Aetherwarp.

This is because you are talking science fantasy and not science fiction. It is the difference between Star Wars and The Martian. Both are good, but both approach the subject matter very differently.

Quote from: jeff37923;859739What you just described is not a game problem, it is a player problem. You knew this guy was OCD, so why let him damage the game you are running?

Yeah it's a Player problem... but that same guy had been mostly fine all through a long stretch of Earthdawn and Deadlands... but the near-future scifi skated just close enough to something he could lecture us on. And like I said, I seem to keep running into this... guys wanting to pontificate at the table about how they think this or that bit of the technology would work. The 'hard' scifi attracts them like flies.
The GM could just tell them to STFU but most of the time the GM engages with the rivet-counter in some long theoretical daisy chain.

Quote from: jeff37923;859742This is because you are talking science fantasy and not science fiction. It is the difference between Star Wars and The Martian. Both are good, but both approach the subject matter very differently.

... and The Martian would most likely be a very dull RPG at the table.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859736I have a small lathe and milling machine over here, you can cut the cams for your ship's robot brain.

You got my point.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859737A one-time table of times is all that's needed.  It takes * poit * three days to get to Naboo from Alderaan, and *poit * four days from Alderaan to Tatooine.

Personally I like having a star map rather than just a table. And a map looks nice on the transparent star plot in the navigation area.

I will agree that it is a problem is the math given is wrong. I am not a math person, so a table of travel times would suit me just fine. My starships tend to move at the speed of plot. But it is nice for the calculations to produce the right results for those who enjoy running them.

I have occasionally driven game designers up a tree by asking them about how exactly some point of the biology of their SF world works or similar.

If you are going to science in your game, make sure the science holds up.

I have played RPGs with gun bunnies who winced at every inaccuracy in the fire arms in game.

We may not all care if the ecology of a planet works, the orbital mechanics are correct, or the firearms have the proper ranges, but some of us will notice if they are wrong. For those who notice it can ruin the immersion.

Just because I do not play the game the way you do does not mean one of us is playing it wrong.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859553And there are these things called computers that would to all the math.

I can think of absolutely no fucking reason to do complex mathematical calculations in a SF game.  Just tell me how long it will take me to reach Alderaan from Naboo.  And if the imaginary number you pull out of your ass isn't "accurate" for an imaginary propulsion system in an imaginary universe, imagine I don't fucking care.

I was about to write the same thing, but now I don't have to. It's like concocting intricate weather systems for D&D when you could just roll one die for the type of weather; another for the time of day the weather hits. Or just make it up as you go, with whatever tickles your fancy:

"Late afternoon by the coast? Time for rain."

As much as I enjoyed fiddling with the ORBIS site, where you can calculate travel times in the Roman Empire, with variables such as weather, season, terrain and types of transport thrown in, I've found that creating such a thing for a D&D campaign is silly, since it is more pointlessly complex and still every bit as arbitrary as pure ass pull.

This is exponentially so in sci-fi settings like Traveller.

Quote from: DavetheLost;859761We may not all care if the ecology of a planet works, the orbital mechanics are correct, or the firearms have the proper ranges, but some of us will notice if they are wrong. For those who notice it can ruin the immersion.

Others of us see those things and choose to keep our gob shut for the sake of everyone else playing the game... that stuff happens all the time and it's better for everyone if you just roll with it. Yes, the GM said 'magazine' when what he meant was 'cartridge'... is it really worth stopping the game to point out?
When you're watching movies in a theater do you shout at the screen if an actor pumps a shotgun that already has a shell in the chamber?

QuoteJust because I do not play the game the way you do does not mean one of us is playing it wrong.

No, it just means I don't want to play games with you.

And generally I do keep my gob shut and roll with it. I don't know how to calculate orbital mechanics and don't care. I use "clip" and "magazine" interchangeably.

For many of us a large part of the appeal of Hard SF is that teh science is right, or as close to right as can be. So some players want accurate manuever drives and orbital mechanics, I like plausible ecosystems, some have already commented about the problems with the economic model, and of course there are the debates about computers.

When you starting premise includes "accurate science" don't be surprised when people who are science geeks show up and call out errors in the science.

It doesn't really bother me in the giant, flying, fire-breathing, hyper-intelligent lizard games, because those are not intended to be "realistic". "Magic" goes a long way to explain and excuse all the silliness.