Quote from: Scooter on October 13, 2023, 09:41:54 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:37:24 PM

This comment was less than worthless. 

Space commerce would most definitely take on a lot of characteristics of maritime trade.  How much?  Dunno, there's a lot of new tech and techniques that could be developed beyond our ability to predict.  However, what happens now is an excellent model to work from to make an educated guess.

Wrong brainless git.  It is an axiomatic comment.  Now rent at least a 5th grade education.

At this point I believe that you are only here to insult people and start fights.  You really don't contribute in any meaningful way.

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:45:37 PM

Quote from: Scooter on October 13, 2023, 09:41:54 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:37:24 PM

This comment was less than worthless. 

Space commerce would most definitely take on a lot of characteristics of maritime trade.  How much?  Dunno, there's a lot of new tech and techniques that could be developed beyond our ability to predict.  However, what happens now is an excellent model to work from to make an educated guess.

Wrong brainless git.  It is an axiomatic comment.  Now rent at least a 5th grade education.

At this point I believe that you are only here to insult people and start fights.  You really don't contribute in any meaningful way.

At this point you are an idiot.  Thinking that interstellar trade is going to be like trade across our oceans.  Why would you think that?

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:37:24 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on October 13, 2023, 07:13:36 PM
Is there a book (fiction or otherwise) or website you recommend that gives a realistic-ish idea of your work?

There's a few books I'd recommend. 

   Two Years Before the Mast - Richard M. Dana
   Ashley's Book of Knots - Clifford W. Ashley
   U-Boat 977 - Heinz Schaeffer
   Any book by Captain Frederick Marryat
   USN Basic Military Requirements NAVEDTRA 14325
   Merchant Marine Officer's Handbook

Oooh! Thank you very much. I've been reading a lot about PT Boats. https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/CloseQuarters/index.html

Quote from: Scooter on October 13, 2023, 09:47:13 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:45:37 PM

Quote from: Scooter on October 13, 2023, 09:41:54 PM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 09:37:24 PM

This comment was less than worthless. 

Space commerce would most definitely take on a lot of characteristics of maritime trade.  How much?  Dunno, there's a lot of new tech and techniques that could be developed beyond our ability to predict.  However, what happens now is an excellent model to work from to make an educated guess.

Wrong brainless git.  It is an axiomatic comment.  Now rent at least a 5th grade education.

At this point I believe that you are only here to insult people and start fights.  You really don't contribute in any meaningful way.

At this point you are an idiot.  Thinking that interstellar trade is going to be like trade across our oceans.  Why would you think that?

Let me find my pack of Crayola so I can make this easy for you.

Interstellar trade is going to be about moving a product from a source to a customer.  Those doing it are going to be motivated to fill a demand in return for a reward; one could assume that the reward would be that of a financial return. 

The source location would have a vested interest in not allowing anything that is demanded locally from leaving in an unfettered way therefore it can be assumed that there will be some form of authority to ensure this by inspecting out-bound stuff.  They would also be interested preventing contraband from leaving to keep local crime from turning into criminal enterprise and to prevent diplomatic problems.  Finally, they would have an interest in preventing out bound items from ending up in the hands of those that the source location feel are a threat to them.  The customer location will have a vested interest in making sure that inbound items are safe, from reliable sources, and will not have a negative impact locally.  Both locations will be well served if they have the ability to communicate their locations requirements and demands about any material going between them.  They will also be well served by taking measures to ensure that the products going between them are not tampered with by a third party in transit.  In this interest, it can be assumed that there will be a process of inspections, documentation, containerization, and validation to ensure the whole process is done properly.

The actual conveyance of product will most likely be done with some form of long range vehicle.  This vehicle will most likely be of some level of complexity necessitating skilled individuals to operate it and maintain it.  Some of these individuals will most likely have to go on this trip with the vessel to ensure it gets to it's destination properly.  These individual will most likely have to be vetted for both competency and security.  The vehicle will have to accommodate the living requirements of these skilled individuals taking the trip.

The vehicle will most likely need some way to identify itself to locations it visits so that the locations know that they are trustworthy and to know how to accommodate the vehicle properly.  There may be multiple vehicles with individually differing requirements.  Locations will have to have facilities, equipment, and supplies to support these vehicles.  Different products will probably have different handling needs as well.

So with all of this, I can either reach up my ass and pull something out to explain how all this works in setting or I can look at some RL activity that looks like this.  In RL, two things look a lot like what I've described above; sea cargo and air cargo.  You know what?  Both sea cargo and air cargo are nearly identical in so many important ways.  Why don't we look at where they over lap and use that as a pattern to make an educated guess as to how interstellar trade might be done.

With this, I'm done with you.  You're combative and insulting when you don't need to be.

I've always had the impression that Traveller rules and physics were written to make the game emulate the 1800s colonial/imperial era, but in space.  So of course there are similarities between Traveller commerce and maritime commerce, though perhaps less so in the modern age.  In light of BadApple's input, If I were concerned with making this idea as realistic as possible (which I'm actually not very) I might set it sometime between 1950 and 1970.

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 10:36:49 PM
So with all of this, I can either reach up my ass and pull something out to explain how all this works in setting or I can look at some RL activity that looks like this.  In RL, two things look a lot like what I've described above; sea cargo and air cargo.  You know what?  Both sea cargo and air cargo are nearly identical in so many important ways.  Why don't we look at where they over lap and use that as a pattern to make an educated guess as to how interstellar trade might be done.

Kinda unfortunate how this exchange as gone especially since you've brought up a very interesting comparison. I wonder if perhaps both might be taken into consideration.

Sea cargo definitely has a longer deliver time and, you can ship more at one time and generally accept losses a bit easier.

Air cargo better be worth it because space in a much, much faster delivery schedule comes at a premium (perhaps also with greater security).

It might be interesting to consider if the differences in methodologies cannot be simulated somehow in space - that some things can be 'hauled' that massively out mass a space ship but experience greater risk, like transporting giant hunks of ice, vs specialty goods that have to be contained within protective storage bays.

Quote from: Lynn on October 14, 2023, 02:35:32 AM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 10:36:49 PM
So with all of this, I can either reach up my ass and pull something out to explain how all this works in setting or I can look at some RL activity that looks like this.  In RL, two things look a lot like what I've described above; sea cargo and air cargo.  You know what?  Both sea cargo and air cargo are nearly identical in so many important ways.  Why don't we look at where they over lap and use that as a pattern to make an educated guess as to how interstellar trade might be done.

Kinda unfortunate how this exchange as gone especially since you've brought up a very interesting comparison. I wonder if perhaps both might be taken into consideration.

Sea cargo definitely has a longer deliver time and, you can ship more at one time and generally accept losses a bit easier.

Air cargo better be worth it because space in a much, much faster delivery schedule comes at a premium (perhaps also with greater security).

It might be interesting to consider if the differences in methodologies cannot be simulated somehow in space - that some things can be 'hauled' that massively out mass a space ship but experience greater risk, like transporting giant hunks of ice, vs specialty goods that have to be contained within protective storage bays.

Depends on the science in the universe, I guess. Meaning, if the real-world speeds are close enough to the same and so are the FTL speeds, then you might as well send everything by the cheapest route.

You have small Serenity, delivering small, high value items and talent quickly. [Shipped by Air]
And then you have the Nostromo delivering literally mountains of whatever (plus biological impurities). [Shipped by Container Vessel]

I would guess the smaller ship is easier to bribe or get in "under the radar" with.
While the larger ship would definitely be a paperwork shuffle to smuggle with.

Quote from: Lynn on October 14, 2023, 02:35:32 AM

Quote from: BadApple on October 13, 2023, 10:36:49 PM
So with all of this, I can either reach up my ass and pull something out to explain how all this works in setting or I can look at some RL activity that looks like this.  In RL, two things look a lot like what I've described above; sea cargo and air cargo.  You know what?  Both sea cargo and air cargo are nearly identical in so many important ways.  Why don't we look at where they over lap and use that as a pattern to make an educated guess as to how interstellar trade might be done.

Kinda unfortunate how this exchange as gone especially since you've brought up a very interesting comparison. I wonder if perhaps both might be taken into consideration.

Sea cargo definitely has a longer deliver time and, you can ship more at one time and generally accept losses a bit easier.

Air cargo better be worth it because space in a much, much faster delivery schedule comes at a premium (perhaps also with greater security).

It might be interesting to consider if the differences in methodologies cannot be simulated somehow in space - that some things can be 'hauled' that massively out mass a space ship but experience greater risk, like transporting giant hunks of ice, vs specialty goods that have to be contained within protective storage bays.

It is unfortunate that the exchange with Scooter went the way it did.  A lot of interactions with him go that way and it's not just me.

There is so much overlap in how things are done between air travel and sea travel in the modern world. 

The technologies are very similar, particularly where they are trying to solve the same problems.  Navigation is identical and use variants of the same equipment, though aircraft have the added element of altitude.  Communication and identification are the same technologies just running on different frequencies.  I could go down the line.  In most cases where their needs overlap the difference between what is used on a ship and what's used on an aircraft comes down to weight, size, and material and not in function.  A radio is a radio, a GPS receiver is a GPS receiver.  Both move through fluids, both use control surfaces, both use similar structural design concepts. etc. etc.

Putting that aside, you could compare the operational parts.  Customs and customs compliance operates exactly the same for both.  Both broadly use the same procedure for obtaining legal permission for international travel.   Both broadly use the same procedures for coming into and leaving port.  (Yes, there are harbor traffic control centers that operate nearly identical to air traffic control centers.)

Modern sea cargo routes and schedules are very comparable to commercial aviation routes and schedules.  Obviously, business jets and special transport aircraft (super guppy) don't have regular routes and neither do specialty ships like the ones I mentioned before.

There are small specialty boats for use in remote locations like island chains just like there's bush planes in Alaska. 

I believe that all of this would inform how interstellar travel and trade would operate.  New technologies and new techniques are needed to handle challenges unique to operating in a vacuum and being weightless but why reinvent the wheel when there's already functional ways to handle mundane things.  Who knows how communication, navigation, and tracking tech will evolve with it but it will still serve the same purposes.  I am certain that we currently have the ability to do traffic control for a star system similar to how we do air traffic control and maritime traffic control.  As such, I believe that interactions between spacecraft and the system authorities would look a lot like what happens with international travel today. 

Between major populated systems, large liner ships would carry passengers and cargo.  From the major systems, feeder ships would take spur routes to lesser populated worlds where liner service would be under utilized.  Specialty ships would operate where some types of cargo would pose unique challenges and therefore would also unlikely be committed to a regular scheduled route.  (Maybe pre-built starport pieces or processed uranium fuel for the 50 year refuel of the local reactors?)  I could also see the need for something like exclusive business transport of VIPs, dignitaries, couriers, and specialists.  In the same ways that remote islands and remote wilderness locations have special transportation needs, I could see remote locations like frontier worlds having specialty ships service them.   

It doesn't need to be locked down hard.  Even today there are people that use privately owned aircraft and privately own boats for business purposes.  There are independent push pilots that own and operate their own bush plane.  There are guys with 60ft landing craft that earn a living in island chains around the world.  Not to mention excursion trips, hunting trips, charters, and all manner of activities that aren't suitable for being integrated into large commercial operations.   
     

Quote from: BadApple on October 14, 2023, 10:07:31 AM
There is so much overlap in how things are done between air travel and sea travel in the modern world. 

That's true, and I think more convergence in space based solutions.

Quote from: BadApple on October 14, 2023, 10:07:31 AM
Putting that aside, you could compare the operational parts.  Customs and customs compliance operates exactly the same for both.  Both broadly use the same procedure for obtaining legal permission for international travel.   Both broadly use the same procedures for coming into and leaving port.  (Yes, there are harbor traffic control centers that operate nearly identical to air traffic control centers.)

Modern sea cargo routes and schedules are very comparable to commercial aviation routes and schedules.  Obviously, business jets and special transport aircraft (super guppy) don't have regular routes and neither do specialty ships like the ones I mentioned before.

There are small specialty boats for use in remote locations like island chains just like there's bush planes in Alaska.

I believe that all of this would inform how interstellar travel and trade would operate.  New technologies and new techniques are needed to handle challenges unique to operating in a vacuum and being weightless but why reinvent the wheel when there's already functional ways to handle mundane things.  Who knows how communication, navigation, and tracking tech will evolve with it but it will still serve the same purposes.  I am certain that we currently have the ability to do traffic control for a star system similar to how we do air traffic control and maritime traffic control.  As such, I believe that interactions between spacecraft and the system authorities would look a lot like what happens with international travel today.

I think for consistency sake and in a highly regulated and controlled system, that would be true. But I think also, if you wanted to run a smuggler campaign, as a GM you'd want to have campaign region that's less locked down (or more variable security in which one 'end point' is less regulated than another) or, has special needs or obstructions like you suggest.

There are merchant vessels today that transport or engage is sketchy commerce and, they've figured out a way to turn a profit. For example in Japan, auto regulations are really extreme so, people tend to replace their cars quite often, even if their old cars are perfectly good. You'd have these really intensive inspections that would end up costing you a rather high rate as compared to the  book value of the car.  After you've gone through a couple of these, your cumulative inspection costs make it less worth while to use it in major cities or, keep them at all. Cars would often be sold to folks in the country where there were slightly lighter regulations. But also, Russian black marketeers would go to ports and pick up loads of cars to haul back to Vladivostok. The 'space' of a car is rather large but, they'd use these ships which were just about worthless themselves and pick up the cars for next to nothing, and the markup was enough to justify doing it.

Quote from: BadApple on October 14, 2023, 10:07:31 AM
Between major populated systems, large liner ships would carry passengers and cargo.  From the major systems, feeder ships would take spur routes to lesser populated worlds where liner service would be under utilized.  Specialty ships would operate where some types of cargo would pose unique challenges and therefore would also unlikely be committed to a regular scheduled route.  (Maybe pre-built starport pieces or processed uranium fuel for the 50 year refuel of the local reactors?)  I could also see the need for something like exclusive business transport of VIPs, dignitaries, couriers, and specialists.  In the same ways that remote islands and remote wilderness locations have special transportation needs, I could see remote locations like frontier worlds having specialty ships service them.   

It doesn't need to be locked down hard.  Even today there are people that use privately owned aircraft and privately own boats for business purposes.  There are independent push pilots that own and operate their own bush plane.  There are guys with 60ft landing craft that earn a living in island chains around the world.  Not to mention excursion trips, hunting trips, charters, and all manner of activities that aren't suitable for being integrated into large commercial operations.

That fits also with my previous point about expensive / fast delivery requirements (air) vs 'it gets here when it gets here' (sea), and having to shift between them when unforeseen events happen make for greater risk. A good example of this in Oregon was when a labor union effectively stopped international shippers from visiting Portland. Importers had to scramble and, decide what they'd risk by the increased (but faster) shipment by air and, the additional cost of having to 'truck' from the ports up in the Seattle area down to Portland.

And of course, what everyone experienced in shipping during COVID.

Quote from: Tod13 on October 14, 2023, 09:58:35 AM
Depends on the science in the universe, I guess. Meaning, if the real-world speeds are close enough to the same and so are the FTL speeds, then you might as well send everything by the cheapest route.

In that case, the less cost effective means would cease to exist.

But in real life, it seems that clever monkeys often figure out other ways that may not necessarily be illegal at first, but simply unregulated and kept below the radar of authority (for a limited time).

Something to consider along with the technology of the setting is whether or not the shipping is interplanetary or interstellar. It should also be considered what amount of realism you want in the setting.

Using Traveller as an example, interstellar shipping costs about 1000 credits per ton - the profit from this is dependent upon the economies of scale in that larger ships have lower overhead per ton shipped than smaller ships. However, larger ships tend to have fixed routes between destinations which ensure a certain level of profit margin. Smaller ships usually have a wider range of destinations because the higher overhead for shipping demands a more selective decision be made so that the cargo gets the most profit for the ship.

Still using Traveller, once you get to interplanetary shipping the above goes out the window. Just using lifters or contragravity, like those in an Air/Raft, you can loft a cargo with a tug to world escape velocity quite easily. The cargoes may take months to reach their destination via Hohmann transfer orbits and will thus be low value per ton relative to interstellar shipping, but things like mined common raw materials or bulk common foodstuffs can be packaged for the trip and provide a regular cycle of supply. It gets even cheaper once Repulsors become available because you can leave your maneuver drive at home and just launch the payloads directly from the ground.

Now I can easily see how this can find parallels with modern air transport and sea transport depending on the cargo, its urgency, and the environment of the destination. Looking at Antarctica, McMurdo Sound can handle container ships during a few months out of the year dependent on seasonal weather, but other research stations and luxury resort camps* can only be accessed by airplane due to their location inland and seasonal weather conditions.

*Yes, luxury resort camps. See below.

https://white-desert.com/our-camps/

Hmmm, you know how players love to be pirates? Some of those cargoes launched on Hohmann transfer orbits would make tempting targets. Low value perhaps, but if the buying price is theft then the selling price is pure profit.

Now all of the above only works in a medium hard science fiction setting like Traveller. None of this would work at all in the Star Wars universe because the technological assumptions are different. For example, sewage treatment on Coruscant isn't nearly as cost effective as just shipping the stuff offworld. You could even make it profitable by having the liquid waste recycled and ship back the water, treat the solids and seperate out the rare metals for industrial worlds and the treated organic solids sold to agricultural worlds ass fertilizer. Think about it, if Coruscant has a population of 1 trillion sentients, then that world is producing 125 million tons of poop alone per day and 1.5 billion tons of wastewater (of which 1.4 billion tons can be recovered as water) per day. Having dirt cheap interstellar travel like they do in Star Wars makes you really have to rethink the economics.

Quote from: Lynn on October 14, 2023, 02:35:32 AM
Air cargo better be worth it because space in a much, much faster delivery schedule comes at a premium (perhaps also with greater security).

It might be interesting to consider if the differences in methodologies cannot be simulated somehow in space

I only learned this because of the pandemic shutting down much of aviation, coupled with a friend of mine being a customs broker - he told me that a large chunk of the world's air-freighted cargo comes in the bellies of passenger aircraft. When you buy a book or t-shirt from China on Amazon, its freight is subsidised by the 300 or so people sitting in the passenger cabin. Take those passengers away, and it gets much, much more expensive.

That's why when I was a kid in the 1970s (and obviously earlier), for overseas postage you had the two options of sea mail and air mail - with fewer passenger aircraft than now, and proportionally more dedicated cargo craft, air mail was much more expensive. Nowadays we have a lot more passenger flights happening, so most mail cargo goes by air.

Obviously you can think about how this works with interstellar flight...

Quote from: BadApple on October 14, 2023, 10:07:31 AMAs such, I believe that interactions between spacecraft and the system authorities would look a lot like what happens with international travel today. 

Awesome post! I'd just add that in a realistic setting, space traffic control would have an advantage because of the vast distances involved and how slow it is to change velocity. You could see a ship coming out of Jupiter orbit, calculate his trajectory, and know he's coming to Earth - whether to stay or get a gravitational assist might be another question, but he's coming here, and he's not going to suddenly stop, turn 90 degrees and go somewhere else.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 15, 2023, 12:55:43 AM
I only learned this because of the pandemic shutting down much of aviation, coupled with a friend of mine being a customs broker - he told me that a large chunk of the world's air-freighted cargo comes in the bellies of passenger aircraft. When you buy a book or t-shirt from China on Amazon, its freight is subsidised by the 300 or so people sitting in the passenger cabin. Take those passengers away, and it gets much, much more expensive.

Yes, in that example I gave also with importers, you also get this with time sensitive stuff. I know a Japanese book chain in the USA that gets magazine subscriptions for customers. Those magazines have to arrive soon, so they end up in those plane bellies. The airlines are very aware of how to make the most of any available capacity.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on December 09, 2006, 10:22:40 PM
People actually do take cruises on tramp freighters, paying around US$100 a day. I'm sure that among all the smuggling and piracy going on, there'll be the occasional person who'd like to disappear for a few weeks or months, then reappear in some foreign port, perhaps under a new name...

International travel via cargo ships follow the same rules as other modes of travel.  One isn't going to reappear in a foreign port under another name.  Unless prison is your desired destination.

Quote from: Scooter on October 15, 2023, 08:33:51 AM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on December 09, 2006, 10:22:40 PM
People actually do take cruises on tramp freighters, paying around US$100 a day. I'm sure that among all the smuggling and piracy going on, there'll be the occasional person who'd like to disappear for a few weeks or months, then reappear in some foreign port, perhaps under a new name...

International travel via cargo ships follow the same rules as other modes of travel.  One isn't going to reappear in a foreign port under another name.  Unless prison is your desired destination.

Regular travel for passengers by sea isn't a thing.  Modern international maritime treaty requirements are very strict on the part of the vessel and operator company.  As such, no major company maintains the ability to take passengers.  Riders (contractors, project specialist, company officials, etc.) are subject to multiple layers of identification verification, various permission slips for governments and the IMO, and a boat load of documentation.  In the end, it costs more to travel by ship than by aircraft.

You aren't sneaking aboard and pretending to be crew.  Ship's crews are much smaller than most people realize with most being about 20 people, all of whom are well documented by the ship and by the company.  Seamen also have three distinct and very difficult to forge documents that are easy to verify as well; a passport, a seaman's document, and a port access ID (TWIC in the USA).

By no means am I saying this is air tight, rules are broken all the time.  It's usually done in places where the risk and the profits for smuggling are very low.

If you're looking to run a smuggling game, there's three key ways it's done IRL successfully.  The first is use shipping containers and get the initial inspectors on board so that it has a good seal before entering the port and into the shipping system.  Shipping cocaine in coffee shipments is a common trope.  The second, is to have a shipping company; own the ships and trucks, control the port, bring the local officials on board with your operations.  The third is to have a clandestine operation as far away from the eyes of inspectors as you can.  The Colombian cartels are know to pursue submarine tech and use semi-submersible craft for smuggling into the US.  Mexican Cartels have been caught multiple times having dug tunnels under the southern boarder.

The bulk of contraband moved by ship and truck is done without the smuggler near by and the actual mover not knowing what's in the container they are moving. 

If you watch TV and see those shows where some person flying in gets caught with a fake can of chilies don't think that's how it's going down.  Mules like that are sacrifices to keep LEO eyes off the real shipments.