Quote from: Pierce InverarityEverything has its place. Austere, cheapo Traveller LBBs = one kind of coolness. Luxurious full-color Artesia (3.x, Qin...) = another. If the customer senses that form and content are successfully matched, $$$ will fly the seller's way regardless of price (where price < 50 bucks, to be sure). I've no problem with that.

You have a point, but you gotta admit that nowadays the consumer prefers the latter to the former, and that most publishers have to ride that wave. It doesn't take much more convincing than looking a shelf that sells game books.

You know... I couldn't care much less about the cover. But I really like to have more or less ubiquitous illustrations... preferrably color, but B&W (as long as it's high-contrast) is cool too. I more or less got into RPGs because I was impressed with some of the illustrations in the MMII.

Quote from: BalbinusThat said, good art needn't be high production value, good sketches is quite sufficient.  That and many games with high production values still have frankly dreadful art.

That's my bad - I thought production values was about "look" but I see I'm wrong about that. It's more about quality of the output as a whole. :rolleyes:

I can live with softcovers, as long as the binding is good. I've been disappointed quite a few times while most hardcovers haven't let me down. And it avoids dog-ears for the covers. For some kind of reason, that evokes a "what-have-I-wrought" reflex in me. Books are sacred objects

And strangely enough, the rift between well-done books and utter crap is getting bigger every day. It's either all-out glossy graphics with a good layout or some dude's shoddy work with MS Word. Gone are the days where the mediocre books weren't exactly exciting, but at least got the job done. Scientific chapter numbering and lots of simple tables I could live with. But craptastic justification, awful headline fonts and the typographical feel of a blind asylum inmate? Nope, I'd rather pay double...

On the other hand, I barely notice color now. My senses have been overloaded by WotG, it will take a few years 'til I see the world as anything else than a murky, sepia-tinted collection of simple shades...

Quote from: JamesVYou have a point, but you gotta admit that nowadays the consumer prefers the latter to the former, and that most publishers have to ride that wave. It doesn't take much more convincing than looking a shelf that sells game books.

Well... there are several models existing side by side. There's the flash, but then there's also the GURPS and the Palladium. And then there's the indie, which admittedly doesn't sell a whole lot. But I think your statement would have been more true in 1998 (and, for D&D/d20, in 2000 through 2004 or so) than iit is n 2007.

But as for flash without any substance whatsoever--nobody can afford to publish something like the 7th Sea GM's Guide any more. There may still be some people who are trying, but they won't be around for long.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityThere's the flash, but then there's also the GURPS and the Palladium.

Well, GURPS has full-color hardcovers right now.

Cyberpunk 3rd.
What?
The Fuck.

Quote from: SettembriniCyberpunk 3rd.
What?
The Fuck.

That about sums up the production values of CP3.

Quote from: DrewPerhaps softcover is now seen as the poor relation. Hardbacks are commonly held to be more durable, whist pdf. has the advantages of printing and organising to taste.

Just a thought.

Obviosuly, I would say.

My favourite gaming book, in physical terms, is the M&M pocket players guide (which happens to be the complete game minus the rather unnecesary gm section). It's softcover, small (about the same size as AFMBE) and within that well made. The binding is good, the paper is good. I can carry it with me as something to read without busting my balls.

This to me is how rpg books should be made. Lugging around vast hardbacks is just inconvenient and frankly painful.

Quote from: Rob LangThat's my bad - I thought production values was about "look" but I see I'm wrong about that. It's more about quality of the output as a whole. :rolleyes:

Yeah, it's not just the pictures, but look of layout, design, non-picture artwork (for lack of a better word -- borders, headers, etc.), as well as things like paper quality and feel. It all adds up.

Quote from: Rob LangThat's my bad - I thought production values was about "look" but I see I'm wrong about that. It's more about quality of the output as a whole. :rolleyes:

I get rolleyes?  Harsh dude.

Anyway, I was thinking of AM5 when I wrote that.  It's full colour, hardback, good quality paper, but the art hurts my eyes.

Now, to be fair some people do really like the art so obviously opinions differ, but plenty also think it's awful.  That doesn't make it necessarily a bad choice, given some do like it, but for me it's a game with great production values but nonetheless dreadful art.

Does that help clarify what I was getting at?

Well, actually, this may be splitting a hair too far, but if you look at the Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG and its sister game, Angel, I think there's an example of production values that aren't to do with look.

Pretty simply, their graphic presentation is on the same level (as you'd expect). But the Angel book's cover has a smooth matte finish compared to the glossy varnished cover on BtVS, which (to me) actually made the Angel book much nicer just to hold and flip through.

Weird, almost inconsequential, but true.

I like art, I like full colour art. I think art plays a huge part in seeting the scene and telling the story. I just don't need for it to be always full colour and glossy.