Quote from: David Johansen;941799One part of death in character creation people miss is that it's how you get rid of a useless character.  If I get 222222 then I'm going belter.  If I get CCCCCC then I'm going merchant.  Indeed, scouts with their 7+ survival roll has freed me from many a bad character.  One of T4's faults is that with four skills per term, personal development could easily outstrip aging rolls.  Another option people don't use enough is the one where the referee collects dead characters to use as adversaries.

Again: why can't I, the player, just look at those shitty 222222 characters and chose not to waste my time trying to fail survival rolls, and just start over?  This is just an inverse of the 'this is how we prevent awesome 80 year olds from breaking the game' arguement from yesterday.

Quote from: Spike;941822Again: why can't I, the player, just look at those shitty 222222 characters and chose not to waste my time trying to fail survival rolls, and just start over?  This is just an inverse of the 'this is how we prevent awesome 80 year olds from breaking the game' arguement from yesterday.

You certainly can do that that.
You can also put him in a service, be surprised when he survives and musters out with some interesting skills, wonder "Who is this guy?", and then follow him into play to find out what will happen and how he'll conduct himself in order to survive while pursuing wealth and power on the fringes of society.

How he will conduct himself will, by definition, provide interesting roleplaying and memorable moments that can't be gained by simply plowing through circumstances with an average and powered up PC.

Note two things:

I'm not saying put such a character through a service to kill him. (If that's all your doing the crumple the numbers up and toss them.) I'm saying put him through the process to find out what happens.

I'm saying the game was built to provide a range of kinds of characters, inspiring roleplay through both strengths and weaknesses. Again, CT is built on a "play the hand you are dealt philosophy." Your guy, until he dies, has characteristics of 222222. Okay, now what are you going to do with that?

The answer to that question is part of what Classic Traveller is about.

That's all well and good and reasonable, and though I may have taken issue with some of your comments I haven't actually argued against you, sir.

Note that I haven't actually said dying in creation is objectively bad.  Its a mechanic, and while I am arguing that it is objectively good (it.is.a.mechanic.), I'm mostly pissy with people who sneeringly dismiss any version of Traveller that doesn't include as standard as somehow... wimpy.  

Its probably one of the most pointless and pissant grog fights in all of RPG fandom, certainly it seems to have more legs than any others.  Decending AC purists aren't this reliably obnoxious.

For what it's worth I don't think we're arguing and fighting. I assume we're simply exchanging ideas and points of view. (And I'm getting a chance to clarify my point of view to myself. Writing is how I clarify my thoughts!)

So, yeah -- no harm; no foul. Like I've said I completely see why some people would not want to use the rules as written. I'm just explaining why I find them so compelling and like them.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;941831For what it's worth I don't think we're arguing and fighting. I assume we're simply exchanging ideas and points of view. (And I'm getting a chance to clarify my point of view to myself. Writing is how I clarify my thoughts!)

So, yeah -- no harm; no foul. Like I've said I completely see why some people would not want to use the rules as written. I'm just explaining why I find them so compelling and like them.

Yeah, I may disagree with ChristopherKubasik on death in Traveller chargen, but it is a polite disagreement. For me, at age 13, deciding that a rule in a game wasn't serving me and changing it was an important developmental moment in my RPG hobby timeline - that others did the same thing makes me think that it was the right choice.

He demonstrated his viewpoint in a detailed rational manner and was quite convincing. I just may not choose to adhere to Traveller RAW when I want a specific character profession in use.

Back about sixth grade, we had a joke about D&D that players who didn't like what they rolled would need to roll to kill themselves before being allowed to roll up another character, using the to-hit table and damage rolls, taking into account their presumably-low Dexterity. Yes, we were TFT point-buy snobs.

On the notion that a surviving belter must've been great, is there anything to back that up other than the skills they get for surviving each term? It seems odd that the stats and skills themselves wouldn't be taken into account in the survival and skill rolls, in an ideal system, of course. I don't really remember how CT makes use of character attributes - when I ran it briefly decades ago, I think I made success rolls roll-under relevant-stat-plus-skill, but that might've been a house rule coming from TFT.

Having noticed how asteroid mining and prospecting actually pay out in Traveller... I'd say that NOT allowing a Belter character to survive one term is due to the 13 Megacorporations of the IMperium actually assassinating all of them to prevent the rise of a fourteenth Mega.... then a fifthteenth and so on and so forth.

Not.One.Allowed.

QuoteAgain, CT is built on a "play the hand you are dealt philosophy." Your guy, until he dies, has characteristics of 222222. Okay, now what are you going to do with that?

I couldn't help myself. I started with characteristics of 222222 and rolled some dice.

I imagined a damaged orphan on the streets of a low gravity mega-city. The wealthy have technology and drugs to help their bodies stave off the affects of the low gravity. The poor have no such help.

He was the runt of his family, and the youngest, often beaten or forgotten. He ran away from home, living on the streets. The violence didn't stop and he spent most of his time trying to survive and dealing with the stress of the streets.

Malnourished, with weakened bones, muscles and cardiovascular from the low gravity, he was often ill and never grew past 5'5" (short for the elongated bodies of his world) but retained the bird-features common to those around him. The stress of his life stunted his intellectual growth and he never had any chance for education.

His one touchstone for survival was looking up at the stars at the edges of the city. In those glittering lights he saw all the possibilities of a life that was impossible to him here.

When a scout ship made a stop on the starport he smuggled himself on board. He is a natural survivor and years of sneaking about and trying to remain out of sight of the city's predators had made him quite capable of hiding himself and slipping into spots where food or money might be kept.

He was found by the scouts as they did an inventory check between systems. They took pity on the little guy (no one appreciates the pluck and grit like the scouts). But when they examined him at a recruiting office they decided he wouldn't make the grade and taking him on would be a death sentence. [He failed his Scout Enlistment roll]

But a war was breaking out on the planet and the Marines needed warm bodies that could hold a weapon and increase the odds until proper reinforcements arrived. [Drafted: Marines] He joined gratefully. While the Scouts were worried about his fate, he was not. Something different was what he wanted, even with a strong possibility of death.

His unit was overrun, but he stayed true during the battle, having nothing else to lose. His wary nature, worked up over years of survival on the streets, helped him lead a small group of men to safety. For his efforts he was awarded a rank of Lieutenant [Successful roll for Commission]. He began working on his skill with a revolver in order to compensate for his body's lack of coordination [Skill Table: Revolver-1]. Through the opportunity of better food, medicine, and training he began to improve his health as well. [Skills rolls STR +1 and END +1]

In his second term he shipped off world and once again served admirably, but he had no natural knack for leadership and did not move up the ranks. He did, however, reveal a focused knack for Electronics [Skill Table: Electronics-1] -- a quiet place where he could work methodically and solve problems with looking over his shoulder all the time.

He would have done anything to stay in the Marines. But his ill health was a concern and the hot war had gone cold. He was forced to leave. He was heartbroken. Nowhere had he ever felt so much a part of something, nowhere did the loyalty he felt for his comrades in arms mean so much. But few men were as clearheaded about their limitations as he was about his, and he completely understood.

By the time he left the service his martial skills had increased through is diligent training and desire to improve himself. [Marines mustering out: Cutlass-1] [Marine Lt. mustering out: Revolver-1] Though his dexterity impaired his ability to handle a weapon as well as other soldier, his Revolver-2 removed that penalty. [DEX 2 penalty for Revolvers is a DM -2 to a Throw, but the Revolver-2 candles that out to a DM 0]

His time in the marines, as well as the structure, offered him a chance to start thinking more clearly and receive more education about the world. [Mustering out: INT +1, EDU +2] as well as a High Passage ticked to his next destination.

He began a course of study to improve his skills and now has an expertise of Electronics-2. [Normally if you choose to increase skills through the Experience System you get to pick two skills to improve. He only has one. I could have improved his physical stats by +1 each, but I saw him as seeing his Electronics skill as his ticket forward.]

He got a job at starport doing electronics repair. He's methodical and steady, never thinking out of the box and never handling the really complicated problems. But his work is solid.

His High Passage ticket burned a hole in his pocket. He could got to any world. But one jump would be only one of five destinations. And then what?

But as he watched the starship crews loading and unloading cargo and passengers he saw in some of them the same camaraderie and teamwork he'd seen in the marines. He knew what he wanted to do next.

He sold off his High Passage ticket [90% of face value] for Cr9000. Bought himself a revolver, ammunition, a cutlass, cloth armor, an electronic tool set of his own, and other supplies. He began introducing himself to the crews, having out in the starport bar. He wasn't a flashy man others who knew him from the starport spoke well of him and his work. By the age of 22 he was a man who never complained, did his work, and had the quality of a man wanting to find someone to be loyal to.

In time he signed on with a group of men who were heading out on a job to another world. His electronic skills, and his commitment to the group, would be an asset.

He has his Lieutenant's insignia, his most prized possion, in his jacket pocket. On the back of his thin neck is his unit's tattoo.

And now he is on his way....

A note about this one sentence:

QuoteHis wary nature, worked up over years of survival on the streets, helped him lead a small group of men to safety.

There is nothing mechanical there. I see this quality of his as being much like Tactics, but at a much smaller scale -- a small group of about six or so and no more. Moreover, he won't get the Surprise DM or Reaction Table DM that Tactics allows.

The reason introduced this is covered in this post where I talk about the bridge between Braunstein and RPG play.

The idea is that Classic Traveller (and I'm only talking about Classic Traveller here) has a limited number of skills. That means that all the other qualities and opportunities for action can be, and should be, adjudicated in a looser many.

Thus, like Braunstein, we look at the qualities of the character. Is the character a Noble? Very well. He will be able to do "noble" things even if he has no particular skill or mechanics rating for "Noble." Was the character a gambler? Very well. He might be able to do slight of hand. Was the character a street urchin? Very well, he might be able to pick pockets?

Note that the character above was a street urchin, but I don't see him as a pickpocket. I don't see that he would ever have approached someone to steal something. He would have done it all on his own, when it was quiet, and he was alone, and he could sneak about as he wished.

In other words, one looks at all the details of the character that have been generated (characteristics, skills, service, number of terms, and other details the Player creates that go beyond the numbers). You look at all of these elements holistically and you see what sort of character you come up with. Some elements of this character will be in the numbers. But other details will be in the "soft" spots between the numbers, where the Player, the Referee, the fictional details, and the roleplaying meet.

Cool, but... the marines are admitting people with Strength 3, Endurance 2 now?

Quote from: Skarg;941863Cool, but... the marines are admitting people with Strength 3, Endurance 2 now?

Are you asking about the United States Marines?
Or a fictional space Marines which conscripted a young man during a heated attack on a world?

Because I'm not saying anything about actual Marines. Are you?

Edited to add: When he was conscripted his characteristics were only 222222. So he was even more pathetic. The higher values were earned during his time in the Marines.

Quote from: Skarg;941836Back about sixth grade, we had a joke about D&D that players who didn't like what they rolled would need to roll to kill themselves before being allowed to roll up another character, using the to-hit table and damage rolls, taking into account their presumably-low Dexterity. Yes, we were TFT point-buy snobs.

On the notion that a surviving belter must've been great, is there anything to back that up other than the skills they get for surviving each term? It seems odd that the stats and skills themselves wouldn't be taken into account in the survival and skill rolls, in an ideal system, of course. I don't really remember how CT makes use of character attributes - when I ran it briefly decades ago, I think I made success rolls roll-under relevant-stat-plus-skill, but that might've been a house rule coming from TFT.

The rule you were using was a house rule. Which I'm not admonishing you about. Just stating a fact.

As to your question about Belters....

Following the change in rules for Scouts skill acquisition in the 1981 edition of the rules, I assume that any service without ranks hands out two skills per term. Thus, if a Belter last three terms, he gets six rolls on the skills table. If he survives four terms he gets eight.

Moreover, using post #58 as an example, the "grit" I was referring to in my talking about Belters who survive is a quality the Player and the Referee get to create in play.

The specific quality of that grit cannot be discussed independent of the other qualities of the character (terms, skills acquired, age, and so on). But it is there, waiting to be sewn into play as the people at the table wish.

And, again, I'm not talking about skill-heavy, mechanically deterministic application of skills that came to dominate RPG design and play after the mid-70s. I'm speaking of a play style that, as far as I can tell, made perfect sense for OD&D, B/X D&D, and Classic Traveller. It was left behind in the dust, so clearly a lot of people had no use for it. But I find it compelling.

Quote from: Spike;941830Note that I haven't actually said dying in creation is objectively bad.  Its a mechanic, and while I am arguing that it is objectively good (it.is.a.mechanic.), I'm mostly pissy with people who sneeringly dismiss any version of Traveller that doesn't include as standard as somehow... wimpy.  

There does tend to be a natural inclination in online discussions to try and cast one's own RP preferences as more 'hardcore,' un-'wimpy,' or the kind of thing that turns boys into men or some-such. For the most part, it's not true. This board has its' fair share of that kind of stuff, but not more than anywhere else (I knew a few people at Dragonsfoot that I swear thought they were the true God's gift to roleplayers and everyone else was literally whining, mewling pretenders). I've said it before and I'll say it again--we are talking about a (collection of) game(s) we play to have fun. There are no real badasses in it and very few true fools in it (outside of people just learning, children, etc.). We could all use an occasional ego check at the door.

That said, this thread has been pretty darn respectful from beginning to end. I don't think anyone is dismissing the other versions of Traveller. As has been mentioned, aging mechanics and injury mechanics allow their character creation to create different, but still effective, ways of limiting players from making uber-characters. They certainly aren't 'CT, just on easy mode,' or something.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;941865Are you asking about the United States Marines?
Or a fictional space Marines which conscripted a young man during a heated attack on a world?

I'm fairly sure Skarg is referring to the minimum characteristic requirements (End 6+ in MgT1, I don't have Classic with me right now) to qualify for enlistment with the Marines.

Quote from: The Butcher;942165I'm fairly sure Skarg is referring to the minimum characteristic requirements (End 6+ in MgT1, I don't have Classic with me right now) to qualify for enlistment with the Marines.

Classic has no minimum requirements.

But neither does MgT. What you are referring to is the Qualifiction value. A roll of 6+ needs to be made, with the END characteristic modifier applied. (In this particular instance it would be DM -2. A roll of 8+ would allow a character of END 2 to enter the Marines in MgT.) The Qualification roll replaces the Enlistement Throw from CT.