GeekyBugle brought up this point in another thread, and I thought it would make an interesting discussion of its own.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134998Once more, travel was dangerous in the real medieval times, and they didn't had to deal with Dragons, Krakens and other big monsters, or roving bands of smaller monsters. Which would make traveling orders of magnitude more dangerous.
Let's discuss HOW travel - especially long distance travel - would work in a D&D world. Feel free to discuss issues specific to your game world or specific to certain settings.
In OD&D, we've got 1D6 damage from weapons corresponding to 1D6 per hit die from monsters and the lower ACs than later editions, thus 10 men-at-arms with spears against even two 5HD monsters is a fair fight. If you bring 20 men-at-arms, those two monsters are going down swiftly. So in OD&D, long distance travel requires the merchant band to have a large number of men-at-arms which increases costs significantly. Thus making trade goods more expensive...
Also, to survive multiple battles, those men-at-arms need armor. More expenses, and leads to a culture where being armed and armored 24/7/365 is actually normal because...monsters everywhere. And the expense of trade would lead to thinking that trade in magic items would be normal too. As they are highly valuable, bringing a couple of +1 items, scrolls and potions from town A to town Z would make the journey profitable.
What expensive / dangerous travel also does is make bards invaluable as sources of information. They exist as far more than entertainers, but lifeblood of communication. As they can memorize lyrics and stories, they can also memorize lengthy amounts of news. Thus, granting them an exalted place in society.
Your thoughts?
Just a quick post, might think about some more of this later but...
Gygax claims money in AD&D (DMG, I forget exactly where) is based on a frontier economy with $20 eggs or whatever. That would make perfect sense in the context of a fantasy gaming world as anyone who lives anywhere near "the monsters" is going to be paying exorbitant prices for pretty much anything due to some of the things you bring up. If we assume wizards are rare, high level ones would be seriously banking as guards for merchants if they so chose. Hell, even a 5th level wizard who can cast Fireball can probably make enough money in a couple weeks as a guard to fund his research for the rest of the year.
Magic items, especially weapons, would be essential. Which is why they're not sold anywhere: once a merchant family or guild gets its hands on a +1 sword and can adequately defend its caravans from gargoyles or whatever, that shit is NEVER leaving their possession. So, no magic shops. Kings would hire high level wizards and clerics to make special items for their own use, probably to ensure their armies cold travel more safely. PCs would need to basically offer the modern equivalent of billions of dollars to even get a wizard to pay attention to them. Boeing isn't going to sell an individual an F-18 for whatever the US Government pays, he'd need to pay like 100x that to justify breaking the exclusive contract.
Hmmm...lots to consider about this. Maybe Gygax wasn't as retarded as people try to make him out to be.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1135153More expenses, and leads to a culture where being armed and armored 24/7/365 is actually normal because...monsters everywhere.
The question really is, are monsters everywhere? A handful of mid-level adventurers could clear out a monster nest easily and wizard guilds would fund monster hunts to retrieve their valuable components. The average peasant living in the civilized parts of a D&D world would never even see a single monster in his entire life. Only those living on the edges of civilization would be affected by monsters whereas those in the interiors would be more likely to be attacked by human bandits.
It's all a matter of scale, both of the world (distance traveled) as of the commerce (amount being moved) and the people protecting the cargo.
Given we have wizards and clerics I would say those are the best suited to travel with the goods and protect them, especially high level wizards and clerics, add a few men-at-arms and a bard to travel with the news.
How much does each of those charge you? Do you have any reliable fortune tellers?
First order of business (if I were in charge), is to build a series of forts along the land routes, not too far away from each other, roads and clear the forests around the roads, not a single tree or bush in a few hundred yards from the road.
Study the monster's patterns if they have any, and do some cleansing of the smaller pests.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1135158The question really is, are monsters everywhere? A handful of mid-level adventurers could clear out a monster nest easily and wizard guilds would fund monster hunts to retrieve their valuable components. The average peasant living in the civilized parts of a D&D world would never even see a single monster in his entire life. Only those living on the edges of civilization would be affected by monsters whereas those in the interiors would be more likely to be attacked by human bandits.
But to travel 5 kingdoms away to bring those precious spices would still be needed no? If the people in the edges of civilization are in danger... Ho much more are those who go even further to do commerce? How about diplomats? What if you want to conquer the kingdom next to yours for reasons?
Yes, in the capital you may be assured you're in danger of human bandits, but going from Kingdom A to Kingdom E?
This is all going to be different depending on the setting. Are monsters rare and only really found when you go way off the beaten track? In that case, maybe you lose a few more people in the wilderness, but most people and trade routes should be as safe as in history (which also varies a lot). Are they common and everywhere? Probably travel is going to be heavily impacted then, as will everything else. Are some monsters common and others uncommon? Okay, now it depends again. If orcs are common and dragons rare, then it will probably be more like passing through hostile lands in the real world. Bring guards and bribes, or pay tribute for safe passage to the orc leaders or whatever.
Magic of course rears its head here too. The Fantasy Trip for instance has magical gates, and mentions that some cities are never reached by land or sea, only gates. D&D 5e has Teleportation Circles that can link cities and other sites together. Old D&D can have this kind of stuff as well.
Quote from: Blankman;1135171This is all going to be different depending on the setting. Are monsters rare and only really found when you go way off the beaten track? In that case, maybe you lose a few more people in the wilderness, but most people and trade routes should be as safe as in history (which also varies a lot). Are they common and everywhere? Probably travel is going to be heavily impacted then, as will everything else. Are some monsters common and others uncommon? Okay, now it depends again. If orcs are common and dragons rare, then it will probably be more like passing through hostile lands in the real world. Bring guards and bribes, or pay tribute for safe passage to the orc leaders or whatever.
Magic of course rears its head here too. The Fantasy Trip for instance has magical gates, and mentions that some cities are never reached by land or sea, only gates. D&D 5e has Teleportation Circles that can link cities and other sites together. Old D&D can have this kind of stuff as well.
Don't you have to know the place before hand to be able to teleport there? Who built the gates/circles? Wouldn't wizards need to travel to a city to be able to link it with their city of origin? What about when those linked kingdoms get into war with each other? What's the capacity of those gates? One person? ten? a hundred? A whole cargo ship?
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135172Don't you have to know the place before hand to be able to teleport there? Who built the gates/circles? Wouldn't wizards need to travel to a city to be able to link it with their city of origin? What about when those linked kingdoms get into war with each other? What's the capacity of those gates? One person? ten? a hundred? A whole cargo ship?
Again, depends on the setting. Cidri in TFT is basically the remains of a magitech empire created by a dimension-hopping family that built some sort of giant terrestrial planet (maybe, maybe something other than a planet) in what is basically Earth's orbit in a world with no Earth. Then they retired and the empire fell apart. A lot of gates are ancient, or at least the connections are. Gates fail, from time to time, but you can build backup gates. But sure, sometimes disaster might strike and you have to send a gate repair Wizard out to fix a connection. Gates can be set with conditions as well, and are probably set in defensible areas. If you come into a kill zone when passing through, invasion through gate won't be particularly feasible.
As for teleportation circles, you only need to know the sigil of the circle you're teleporting to. You can learn it by showing up and studying the circle, or it can be taught to you. At some point someone has to make those journeys, but the more magic heavy you get, the less often you'd need them.
Quote from: Blankman;1135175Again, depends on the setting. Cidri in TFT is basically the remains of a magitech empire created by a dimension-hopping family that built some sort of giant terrestrial planet (maybe, maybe something other than a planet) in what is basically Earth's orbit in a world with no Earth. Then they retired and the empire fell apart. A lot of gates are ancient, or at least the connections are. Gates fail, from time to time, but you can build backup gates. But sure, sometimes disaster might strike and you have to send a gate repair Wizard out to fix a connection. Gates can be set with conditions as well, and are probably set in defensible areas. If you come into a kill zone when passing through, invasion through gate won't be particularly feasible.
As for teleportation circles, you only need to know the sigil of the circle you're teleporting to. You can learn it by showing up and studying the circle, or it can be taught to you. At some point someone has to make those journeys, but the more magic heavy you get, the less often you'd need them.
Yes, my contention is that with so many different monsters plus normal bandits you'd need magical travel, but you still leave one point to be addressed:
Are those gates/circles capable of moving a whole cargo ship? What's their volume or weight capacity?
A point I hadn't think about: Aren't those methods gonna end up creating a monopoly?
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135159First order of business (if I were in charge), is to build a series of forts along the land routes, not too far away from each other, roads and clear the forests around the roads, not a single tree or bush in a few hundred yards from the road.
Study the monster's patterns if they have any, and do some cleansing of the smaller pests.
Thats actually in AD&D and I think maybee BX. Travel along patrolled roads was fairly safe with a pretty low chance of an encounter. And not all encounters were hostile so there is that too. I'd have to break out the DMG to get the exact numbers.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135178Yes, my contention is that with so many different monsters plus normal bandits you'd need magical travel, but you still leave one point to be addressed:
Are those gates/circles capable of moving a whole cargo ship? What's their volume or weight capacity?
A point I hadn't think about: Aren't those methods gonna end up creating a monopoly?
Don't remember offhand now, but gates can get fairly large, and don't really have a cost for going through them. Teleportation circles in 5e are ten feet in diameter. That may seem small, but multiple strips with smaller cargo may be more cost effective than a cargo ship. Again, it depends. As for monopolies, sure. So? That kind of stuff happens all the time in real history too. Monopolies tend to form naturally. Then you might get someone else trying to break the monopoly, either with their own gates or circles, or through other means. Now you have a setup for conflict.
Quote from: Blankman;1135182Don't remember offhand now, but gates can get fairly large, and don't really have a cost for going through them. Teleportation circles in 5e are ten feet in diameter. That may seem small, but multiple strips with smaller cargo may be more cost effective than a cargo ship. Again, it depends. As for monopolies, sure. So? That kind of stuff happens all the time in real history too. Monopolies tend to form naturally. Then you might get someone else trying to break the monopoly, either with their own gates or circles, or through other means. Now you have a setup for conflict.
So a monopoly affects the prices of goods. Speaking of verisimilitude you need to take that stuff into account.
Since the monopoly would be magic based it would also probably affect the social standing of wizards, probably making them the rulers.
Geeky makes a good point and I pretty much agree with the OP. Though, some posters also bring a fair observation that this is bound to vary depending on how rare or common monsters are in the campaign world. But it does set an interesting case for consideration, since even in a world where monsters are rare their mere existence can throw a wrench at commerce, particularly trading across vast distances, which could bring a lot of opportunities for adventurers, but inevitably inflate the prices of goods and limit interaction between distant lands.
Normal wild animals can be a threat too. Bears, wolves, even wild boars and the like.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135184So a monopoly affects the prices of goods. Speaking of verisimilitude you need to take that stuff into account.
Since the monopoly would be magic based it would also probably affect the social standing of wizards, probably making them the rulers.
Not at all necessary or even probable. Without engineers, our entire modern society would fall apart. Yet engineers don't run society.
Quote from: Omega;1135192Normal wild animals can be a threat too. Bears, wolves, even wild boars and the like.
Add the Hippogrifs, Griphons, Dire wolves, Giant everything, I bet even well maintained roads aren't of much use against flying threats. Long distance travel would be REALLY dangerous unless done by magic.
Quote from: Blankman;1135194Not at all necessary or even probable. Without engineers, our entire modern society would fall apart. Yet engineers don't run society.
Say, how many engineers can shoot lightning from their finger tips?
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135198Say, how many engineers can shoot lightning from their finger tips?
It's called an uzi. Anyway, Wizards in TFT are a lot more toned down than they are in any version of D&D. A powerful wizard can get taken down by a single crossbowman, if he gets a bit unlucky.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135197Add the Hippogrifs, Griphons, Dire wolves, Giant everything, I bet even well maintained roads aren't of much use against flying threats. Long distance travel would be REALLY dangerous unless done by magic.
Flying threats tend to also make great targets. Odds are any aerial predators would learn to avoid the roads too after a few arrows get short at or into them. Even bears learn to leave porcupines alone.
Quote from: Blankman;1135212It's called an uzi. Anyway, Wizards in TFT are a lot more toned down than they are in any version of D&D. A powerful wizard can get taken down by a single crossbowman, if he gets a bit unlucky.
But we have guys with guns to prevent the engineers from taking over, if the wizards decided to take over how would you stop them? Your army, guards, etc don't have the firepower.
Quote from: Omega;1135213Flying threats tend to also make great targets. Odds are any aerial predators would learn to avoid the roads too after a few arrows get short at or into them. Even bears learn to leave porcupines alone.
Or they could learn that in those things there's a constant stream of tasty things...
Most individual predators don't get a second chance to learn things; and it stands to reason, flying critters probably have very large hunting ranges. I assume it'd be a terrifying real possibility that they'd haunt an area... and ultimately get wiped out.
The Marco Polo's of the campaign world have balls of steel and lots of dead mercenaries; the guys that follow the trailblazers? They get decent stories. Some of the roads and valleys in my campaign world have names like 'Griffin's Hunt' and 'Three Roc Pass' when the threats are long dead and gone.
Quote from: LiferGamer;1135223Most individual predators don't get a second chance to learn things; and it stands to reason, flying critters probably have very large hunting ranges. I assume it'd be a terrifying real possibility that they'd haunt an area... and ultimately get wiped out.
The Marco Polo's of the campaign world have balls of steel and lots of dead mercenaries; the guys that follow the trailblazers? They get decent stories. Some of the roads and valleys in my campaign world have names like 'Griffin's Hunt' and 'Three Roc Pass' when the threats are long dead and gone.
Exactly, but some of those are supposed to hunt in groups, so either in a region they learned to avoid the towns and roads or were wiped out.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135224Exactly, but some of those are supposed to hunt in groups, so either in a region they learned to avoid the towns and roads or were wiped out.
No arguments here.
Relating to the topic in general: The obvious one, true answer is 'whatever the GM thinks works for his setting'
The rich will travel, see things you'll only hear of, and the rest of you? You might get to market in the nearest city once a year, or if you're called up, get the honor of serving in the lords fyrd/local militia yadda yadda yadda. I go out of my way to avoid Flintstones worlds - where its just 20th(21st) century earth but with dinosaurs (magic), so I HAMMER the point home, for the masses, life is overall at the same level on Folia or Oerth or any number of Fantasy RPG worlds as it would be in 10th-14th century earth.
That said, depending on your rules set and the available magic, there is likely less (conventional) mystery... but more wonder. (Greyhawk always did it for me, unfolding that map and having shit like the Land of Black Ice, Sea of Dust...)
I've always designed/planned my D&D and GURPS worlds where the rulers have (magical) access to the magical equivalent to awesome health care, long distance radio and spy satellites, and can travel, but it's limited, so the peons can't; what trickles down is knowledge and trinkets which means the maps are "Here be dragons... and here be orcs... and here be those gnome bastards..." where a lucky few have been there, but the rest of the world can treat it as something north of a rumor.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135165But to travel 5 kingdoms away to bring those precious spices would still be needed no? If the people in the edges of civilization are in danger... Ho much more are those who go even further to do commerce?
As I understand it, back in the medieval period, taking spices and silk from China and India to Europe took 2 years and at the other end they were worth their weight in silver... or more.
Of course, the real world has less silver and gold than the D&D world. I remember looking this up to think how things would go if the world went back to silver and gold currency. Supposedly the world has mined, since recorded history, some 190,000 tonnes of gold and 1.74 million tonnes of silver. Given our 7.8 billion people, that's 223g silver and 24g gold available as currency for each person in the world. If we call it a 1:10 conversion between the two, we get basically an old pound Sterling (pound of silver) per person in the world - assuming we used gold and silver for currency and nothing else.
If this were done, most people in the world would never see a coin for most of their lives. But D&D's not like that, because it's fantasy, and Smaug in The Hobbit movie had probably the Earth's worth of gold just in his hoard. There are buckets of gold out there, and platinum, too, and nobody bothers schlepping around copper after 1st level :)
Which is to say, like I said to a guy earlier today wondering about the molecular weight of the hydrogen in the reactionless drive spacecraft in Classic Traveller: don't think about it too much.
Quote from: LiferGamer;1135226No arguments here.
Relating to the topic in general: The obvious one, true answer is 'whatever the GM thinks works for his setting'
The rich will travel, see things you'll only hear of, and the rest of you? You might get to market in the nearest city once a year, or if you're called up, get the honor of serving in the lords fyrd/local militia yadda yadda yadda. I go out of my way to avoid Flintstones worlds - where its just 20th(21st) century earth but with dinosaurs (magic), so I HAMMER the point home, for the masses, life is overall at the same level on Folia or Oerth or any number of Fantasy RPG worlds as it would be in 10th-14th century earth.
That said, depending on your rules set and the available magic, there is likely less (conventional) mystery... but more wonder. (Greyhawk always did it for me, unfolding that map and having shit like the Land of Black Ice, Sea of Dust...)
I've always designed/planned my D&D and GURPS worlds where the rulers have (magical) access to the magical equivalent to awesome health care, long distance radio and spy satellites, and can travel, but it's limited, so the peons can't; what trickles down is knowledge and trinkets which means the maps are "Here be dragons... and here be orcs... and here be those gnome bastards..." where a lucky few have been there, but the rest of the world can treat it as something north of a rumor.
Flintstones worlds, LOL. But yes, nothing breaks immersion as inordinate amounts of current year standards of living inserted into a medieval-esque world.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135219But we have guys with guns to prevent the engineers from taking over, if the wizards decided to take over how would you stop them? Your army, guards, etc don't have the firepower.
No, guys with guns exist for lots of reasons, but preventing engineers from taking over is not really high on the priorities list. Almost all the guns were invented by engineers, if they wanted to take over, they would have kept the guns for themselves. But "engineers" are not a coherent group in the sense of wanting to take over the world anyway. There's no reason for Engineer A from Country X to feel more kinship with Engineer B from Country Y than other people from Country X. The same thing would be true for Wizards in a fantasy world.
And yes, most of the time, the firepower to take out Wizards is there, if you want/need to. Apart from other Wizards, as I said in TFT, even a mighty Wizard can be taken out by a lucky shot from a crossbowman. And a lightning bolt is more on the level of a powerful crossbow bolt, hitting one target and probably doing some massive damage, but after a few of those, your Wizard is out of oomph even if they've managed to avoid being killed in the mean time.
It varies wildly by setting. But in most sea travel is not much more dangerous than IRL and sea trade is perfectly viable with the occasional ship loss. Travelling to market in civilised realms is similar too - somewhere like Cormyr it is probably a lot safer than IRL!
In a wasteland setting like the Wilderlands or Arnor you will definitely see less routine long distance travel, and merchants will travel in convoys a la the 1e monster manual.
In Traveller, gold might be as common as in a D&D campaign because of asteroid mining, in the setting I'm working on, I have a D&D World in a Traveller setting using the T20 roles and D&D 3.5 and I thought why not wed these two settings together, thus was born the World Gaia, a copy of Earth transported from a parallel universe to the Alpha Centauri system, it has a 476 day year which is split I to 16 months, it is orbited by Ares - a fantastical version of Mars, and there are two other worlds orbiting the second star in a similar fashion, Aphrodite with Hermes as is moon. Aphrodite is a more primitive dinosaur planet with bronze Age technology and amazons, Hermes is full of thieves and merchants and is quite modern, Ares is a desert world with advanced ruins but reproducible technology equivalent to the late 19th century.
When gauging the effects of magic on travel and commerce keep in mind we do have a real world example, moving good by land versus sea. Transporting goods by sea is a least an order of magnitude more efficient in the medieval and ancient world.
As for information usable for a RPG campaign on medieval trade and travel there is no better source than Harn. Particularly the Pilot Almanac which is a product, and Harn Mercantylism which is free to download.
https://www.lythia.com/harnworld/guilds-trade/harnmaster-mercantylism/
Ars Magica has some useful campaign material for medieval life across its various editions.
What I do in my Majestic Wilderlands is start with various Harn rules for economics and then layer any use of magic on top of that. The main effect of which allow players to move good further and quicker and thus make more of a profit initially. The problem invariably are the capital costs which are considerably more than even a large ship. And also require skills that are much harder to find. Hence why mundane means of transportation has been driven out by magical equivalent in my settings.
The problem of long distance trip in any medieval setting is the gang mentality fostered by feudalism and local attitudes. In a setting emulating the medieval period the forces requiring cooperation at a national level are nearly non-existent. The king or sovereign at first is the person with the largest "gang". But as the medieval period progresses and the economy grows more sophisticated, kings and sovereign start to assert their authority at the national. Especially now they have more allies to make it happen.
The alternative is the Byzantine or Roman model. In the eastern Roman Empire, the central authority never disappeared so long distance travel was a tad easier then in the fragmented west. So if your setting still has a roman style empire or a function remains of one then the limits of long distance travel are the limits of the technology (mundane or magical) of the times.
Anyway this came up in the last year while running the Majestic Wilderlands using my Swords & Wizardry variant. So I used the open content of Adventuer, Conqueror, King mixed in some of my own ideas, some material I learned from Harn and created Merchant Adventures (http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Merchant%20Adventures%20Rev%2004.pdf).
Quote from: S'mon;1135273It varies wildly by setting. But in most sea travel is not much more dangerous than IRL and sea trade is perfectly viable with the occasional ship loss. Travelling to market in civilised realms is similar too - somewhere like Cormyr it is probably a lot safer than IRL!
In a wasteland setting like the Wilderlands or Arnor you will definitely see less routine long distance travel, and merchants will travel in convoys a la the 1e monster manual.
Quote from: estar;1135294When gauging the effects of magic on travel and commerce keep in mind we do have a real world example, moving good by land versus sea. Transporting goods by sea is a least an order of magnitude more efficient in the medieval and ancient world.
What about sea monsters, like sahuagin, sea serpents, sea hags, kraken, creatures capable of summoning water elementals, giant sharks, harpies and other flying creatures that may nest in islands along travel routes, etc.? That's still a lot more dangerous than sea travel in the real world. D&D/fantasy worlds have a lot more things to throw at you than storms or lack of wind for your sails, which are bound to make sea travel a lot more interesting and precarious.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1135300What about sea monsters, like sahuagin, sea serpents, sea hags, kraken, creatures capable of summoning water elementals, giant sharks, harpies and other flying creatures that may nest in islands along travel routes, etc.? That's still a lot more dangerous than sea travel in the real world. D&D/fantasy worlds have a lot more things to throw at you than storms or lack of wind for your sails, which are bound to make sea travel a lot more interesting and precarious.
On the other hand, D&D also has wizards and priests who can fill your sails with wind and even control the weather. Those offerings at the sea god's temple become more than just a waste of resources now.
Quote from: S'mon;1135273It varies wildly by setting. But in most sea travel is not much more dangerous than IRL and sea trade is perfectly viable with the occasional ship loss. Travelling to market in civilised realms is similar too - somewhere like Cormyr it is probably a lot safer than IRL!
In a wasteland setting like the Wilderlands or Arnor you will definitely see less routine long distance travel, and merchants will travel in convoys a la the 1e monster manual.
I agree it's going to vary a lot by setting. I will say this: To many travellers, there's no real difference between a dragon and murderous bandits or pirates. Both will kill you just as dead. So depending on specific circumstances, it's possible that the presence of dragons means less bandits or pirates, and travel *isn't* more dangerous than in a no-monster world. It's just a different type of danger. But as you say, that depends on the world.
The 1e DMG random encounter tables, if statistically applied to all travellers, would make travel incredibly dangerous -- but then again, it's not any safer in the towns, given the City/Town encounter table. I think it's better to view the tables as a way to spice things up for the PCs rather than as a universal feature of the world.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1135300What about sea monsters, like sahuagin, sea serpents, sea hags, kraken, creatures capable of summoning water elementals, giant sharks, harpies and other flying creatures that may nest in islands along travel routes, etc.? That's still a lot more dangerous than sea travel in the real world. D&D/fantasy worlds have a lot more things to throw at you than storms or lack of wind for your sails, which are bound to make sea travel a lot more interesting and precarious.
Humans are history's worse monsters, pirates and corsairs were rife in the Mediterranean and north sea at various times. So monsters rule the waves which means little to no pirates or corsairs, or there are pirates and corsairs, or the coastal realms have it reasonably under control. So we can look to history for a baseline.
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PiracyThe Slavic piracy in the Baltic Sea ended with the Danish conquest of the Rani stronghold of Arkona in 1168. In the 12th century the coasts of western Scandinavia were plundered by Curonians and Oeselians from the eastern coast of the Baltic Sea. In the 13th and 14th century, pirates threatened the Hanseatic routes and nearly brought sea trade to the brink of extinction. The Victual Brothers of Gotland were a companionship of privateers who later turned to piracy as the Likedeelers. They were especially noted for their leaders Klaus Störtebeker and Gödeke Michels. Until about 1440, maritime trade in both the North Sea and the Baltic Sea was seriously in danger of attack by the pirates.
If the setting has monsters are out of control on land or sea then the situation the same for both which means the efficiency advantage of sea trade still remains. Obviously way less given the circumstances of the setting but land travel will be way less.
For example suppose one stipulates that beyond one day travel the odds being preyed on goes to near 100%. For land that means a 25 miles radius beyond the settlement. For a coastal settlement one day's travel means 150 mile radius to anywhere that reachable by sea. No matter how one narrows the safe zone, the reach of seafaring communities is considerably greater.
Quote from: Blankman;1135310On the other hand, D&D also has wizards and priests who can fill your sails with wind and even control the weather. Those offerings at the sea god's temple become more than just a waste of resources now.
Which are supposed to be rare, though, that also varies depending on the setting. But you know who else has wizards and spell casting priests? Pirates and intelligent seafaring creatures. I'm guessing Fireball to the mast is a standard wizarding pirate strategy to stop their prey on their tracks.
Quote from: estar;1135315Humans are history's worse monsters, pirates and corsairs were rife in the Mediterranean and north sea at various times. So monsters rule the waves which means little to no pirates or corsairs, or there are pirates and corsairs, or the coastal realms have it reasonably under control. So we can look to history for a baseline.
If the setting has monsters are out of control on land or sea then the situation the same for both which means the efficiency advantage of sea trade still remains. Obviously way less given the circumstances of the setting but land travel will be way less.
For example suppose one stipulates that beyond one day travel the odds being preyed on goes to near 100%. For land that means a 25 miles radius beyond the settlement. For a coastal settlement one day's travel means 150 mile radius to anywhere that reachable by sea. No matter how one narrows the safe zone, the reach of seafaring communities is considerably greater.
I suppose that's true. Unless those pirates are allied or have some sort of pact with seafaring intelligent creatures, though, that would still make things as interesting for them as they do for other sea travelers. But point remains that, even if sea travel is overall more efficient in terms of travel distance, travel by sea should still be potentially more perilous than in real life, which goes to Geeky's original point.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1135330Which are supposed to be rare, though, that also varies depending on the setting. But you know who else has wizards and spell casting priests? Pirates and intelligent seafaring creatures. I'm guessing Fireball to the mast is a standard wizarding pirate strategy to stop their prey on their tracks.
All of this depends on specific setting assumptions. I tend to dial the unreality up on an even keel though. So if there are a lot more monsters, there's a lot more magic as well. Whereas if magic is rare and most people have never seen it, then most people have probably never seen a monster either. Consider something like A Song of Ice and Fire. This is a setting that has wizards and sorcerers and priests that can bring people back from the dead, as well as dragons and giants and hordes of undead. But for most people, most of the time, none of that is relevant. Most travel isn't impacted by dragons or giants or undead, nor by blood magic or resurrection or shapeshifting assassins.
Compare this to something like The Forgotten Realms., A lot more monsters, but also a lot more magic. Now the average peasant may well have seen an orc or an ogre, but they've also probably seen a friendly cleric or wizard.
Quote from: Blankman;1135344All of this depends on specific setting assumptions. I tend to dial the unreality up on an even keel though. So if there are a lot more monsters, there's a lot more magic as well. Whereas if magic is rare and most people have never seen it, then most people have probably never seen a monster either. Consider something like A Song of Ice and Fire. This is a setting that has wizards and sorcerers and priests that can bring people back from the dead, as well as dragons and giants and hordes of undead. But for most people, most of the time, none of that is relevant. Most travel isn't impacted by dragons or giants or undead, nor by blood magic or resurrection or shapeshifting assassins.
Compare this to something like The Forgotten Realms., A lot more monsters, but also a lot more magic. Now the average peasant may well have seen an orc or an ogre, but they've also probably seen a friendly cleric or wizard.
Balancing the world, where's the fun then?
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135221Or they could learn that in those things there's a constant stream of tasty things...
Put the goal posts back where they were sonny.
Quote from: Omega;1135357Put the goal posts back where they were sonny.
I wasn't aware this was a debate.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135346Balancing the world, where's the fun then?
No, just having a generally consistent level of magic. Sure, there will be places where there are more trolls than wizards, and places where there are more wizards than trolls, but in general the more you increase the fantastic-ness, the more it increases.
Quote from: VisionStorm;1135300What about sea monsters, like sahuagin, sea serpents, sea hags, kraken, creatures capable of summoning water elementals, giant sharks, harpies and other flying creatures that may nest in islands along travel routes, etc.? That's still a lot more dangerous than sea travel in the real world. D&D/fantasy worlds have a lot more things to throw at you than storms or lack of wind for your sails, which are bound to make sea travel a lot more interesting and precarious.
Depends on your encounter tables of course. But I've seen more ships lost to storms than monsters. IRL weather and getting lost were usually bigger threats than pirates. And most monsters are less dangerous than pirates.
In my Thule game recently the PCs lost a 300 man war galley to some really bad weather rolls (and putting back out to sea during the storm for fear of enemies on land). Next time they put to sea they first had a bunch of priests do a ceremony to placate the sea goddess Tiamat.
Compared to their terror of the weather, the 10 headed sea hydra they butchered off Nimoth was nothing.
With overland travel, outside civilised areas you won't see many small, pc-group sized bands of travellers. If there are pilgrims or merchants they'll be in groups of 20-200 more likely than 2-20. But the monster threat is very similar to the brigand threat, very few settings have common monsters be super deadly.
Finally - travel was dangerous IRL! People and ships were often lost, killed, enslaved et al. People still did it.
To me, the biggest difference in a notably fantastical setting is that odds on the Russian Roulette that is travel become much more unpredictable. Or maybe more accurate to say that the overall odds are predictable (otherwise, trade wouldn't happen much), but the odds in any time and place are less predictable. Which is why the merchant caravan would think it a good idea if some adventurers wanted to travel with them for a ways--such a good idea that the caravan master might offer to pay adventurers.
In the real world or something close to it, the worries are weather, disease, logistics, hostile natives, bandits, people on your own side that aren't dependable or even traitors, and so forth. And margins on those light enough on average to make a profit. In the fantastical version, you've probably got most or all of those worries, plus much more powerful natural or semi-natural predators, outright monsters, plants that move and want to eat you or charm you or generally mess up your day, the unliving animated remains of prior caravans or the bandits that robbed them, and so on. You counter that with adventurers.
For the owner of the merchant corporation, that's just the cost of doing business. It's still traditional Russian Roulette for him, with the cost of failure being a lost caravan. For the caravan master, merchants, guards, and any adventurers going along, it's Russian Roulette where some trips have no effective rounds in the chamber at all. Spin it how much you want, the caravan can easily handle everything thrown at them. Sometimes, half the chambers are loaded. Sometimes, all but one are loaded.
Being the caravan master isn't as bad as being an Allied bomber pilot over Germany, circa 1943. But I would expect a certain degree of stoicism, fatalism, or the like to emerge in the breed.
I've been playing in Eberron, and the use of magical trains, (non-wind-powered) ships, and airships along with rarer but still accessible teleportation circles makes the world somewhat smaller...for those with deep pockets. Of course, in 5e, there's not all that much to spend gold on these days.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135159First order of business (if I were in charge), is to build a series of forts along the land routes, not too far away from each other, roads and clear the forests around the roads, not a single tree or bush in a few hundred yards from the road.
Maintaining a King's Road is expensive. That would require taxes and tolls which increase the price of trade.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135219But we have guys with guns to prevent the engineers from taking over, if the wizards decided to take over how would you stop them? Your army, guards, etc don't have the firepower.
Thus the trope of the Wizard-King in fantasy....and it requires a Conan to stop a Thulsa-Doom.
Quote from: jhkim;1135313So depending on specific circumstances, it's possible that the presence of dragons means less bandits or pirates, and travel *isn't* more dangerous than in a no-monster world.
This is a good point. Bandits and Pirates either need to be allied with monsters or the risk is even greater for them as they lack the safe harbor of a friendly town or port. Or they're just monster snacks too.
Quote from: S'mon;1135395Finally - travel was dangerous IRL! People and ships were often lost, killed, enslaved et al. People still did it.
It's the ROI. If you're a peasant who will see nothing but coppers at best their whole life, then maybe risking everything for a pouch of gold is worth the risk.