GeekyBugle brought up this point in another thread, and I thought it would make an interesting discussion of its own.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1134998Once more, travel was dangerous in the real medieval times, and they didn't had to deal with Dragons, Krakens and other big monsters, or roving bands of smaller monsters. Which would make traveling orders of magnitude more dangerous.

Let's discuss HOW travel - especially long distance travel - would work in a D&D world. Feel free to discuss issues specific to your game world or specific to certain settings.

In OD&D, we've got 1D6 damage from weapons corresponding to 1D6 per hit die from monsters and the lower ACs than later editions, thus 10 men-at-arms with spears against even two 5HD monsters is a fair fight. If you bring 20 men-at-arms, those two monsters are going down swiftly. So in OD&D, long distance travel requires the merchant band to have a large number of men-at-arms which increases costs significantly. Thus making trade goods more expensive...

Also, to survive multiple battles, those men-at-arms need armor. More expenses, and leads to a culture where being armed and armored 24/7/365 is actually normal because...monsters everywhere. And the expense of trade would lead to thinking that trade in magic items would be normal too. As they are highly valuable, bringing a couple of +1 items, scrolls and potions from town A to town Z would make the journey profitable.

What expensive / dangerous travel also does is make bards invaluable as sources of information. They exist as far more than entertainers, but lifeblood of communication. As they can memorize lyrics and stories, they can also memorize lengthy amounts of news. Thus, granting them an exalted place in society.

Your thoughts?

Just a quick post, might think about some more of this later but...

Gygax claims money in AD&D (DMG, I forget exactly where) is based on a frontier economy with $20 eggs or whatever. That would make perfect sense in the context of a fantasy gaming world as anyone who lives anywhere near "the monsters" is going to be paying exorbitant prices for pretty much anything due to some of the things you bring up. If we assume wizards are rare, high level ones would be seriously banking as guards for merchants if they so chose. Hell, even a 5th level wizard who can cast Fireball can probably make enough money in a couple weeks as a guard to fund his research for the rest of the year.

Magic items, especially weapons, would be essential. Which is why they're not sold anywhere: once a merchant family or guild gets its hands on a +1 sword and can adequately defend its caravans from gargoyles or whatever, that shit is NEVER leaving their possession. So, no magic shops. Kings would hire high level wizards and clerics to make special items for their own use, probably to ensure their armies cold travel more safely. PCs would need to basically offer the modern equivalent of billions of dollars to even get a wizard to pay attention to them. Boeing isn't going to sell an individual an F-18 for whatever the US Government pays, he'd need to pay like 100x that to justify breaking the exclusive contract.

Hmmm...lots to consider about this. Maybe Gygax wasn't as retarded as people try to make him out to be.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1135153More expenses, and leads to a culture where being armed and armored 24/7/365 is actually normal because...monsters everywhere.

The question really is, are monsters everywhere? A handful of mid-level adventurers could clear out a monster nest easily and wizard guilds would fund monster hunts to retrieve their valuable components. The average peasant living in the civilized parts of a D&D world would never even see a single monster in his entire life. Only those living on the edges of civilization would be affected by monsters whereas those in the interiors would be more likely to be attacked by human bandits.

It's all a matter of scale, both of the world (distance traveled) as of the commerce (amount being moved) and the people protecting the cargo.

Given we have wizards and clerics I would say those are the best suited to travel with the goods and protect them, especially high level wizards and clerics, add a few men-at-arms and a bard to travel with the news.

How much does each of those charge you? Do you have any reliable fortune tellers?

First order of business (if I were in charge), is to build a series of forts along the land routes, not too far away from each other, roads and clear the forests around the roads, not a single tree or bush in a few hundred yards from the road.

Study the monster's patterns if they have any, and do some cleansing of the smaller pests.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1135158The question really is, are monsters everywhere? A handful of mid-level adventurers could clear out a monster nest easily and wizard guilds would fund monster hunts to retrieve their valuable components. The average peasant living in the civilized parts of a D&D world would never even see a single monster in his entire life. Only those living on the edges of civilization would be affected by monsters whereas those in the interiors would be more likely to be attacked by human bandits.

But to travel 5 kingdoms away to bring those precious spices would still be needed no? If the people in the edges of civilization are in danger... Ho much more are those who go even further to do commerce? How about diplomats? What if you want to conquer the kingdom next to yours for reasons?

Yes, in the capital you may be assured you're in danger of human bandits, but going from Kingdom A to Kingdom E?

This is all going to be different depending on the setting. Are monsters rare and only really found when you go way off the beaten track? In that case, maybe you lose a few more people in the wilderness, but most people and trade routes should be as safe as in history (which also varies a lot). Are they common and everywhere? Probably travel is going to be heavily impacted then, as will everything else. Are some monsters common and others uncommon? Okay, now it depends again. If orcs are common and dragons rare, then it will probably be more like passing through hostile lands in the real world. Bring guards and bribes, or pay tribute for safe passage to the orc leaders or whatever.

Magic of course rears its head here too. The Fantasy Trip for instance has magical gates, and mentions that some cities are never reached by land or sea, only gates. D&D 5e has Teleportation Circles that can link cities and other sites together. Old D&D can have this kind of stuff as well.

Quote from: Blankman;1135171This is all going to be different depending on the setting. Are monsters rare and only really found when you go way off the beaten track? In that case, maybe you lose a few more people in the wilderness, but most people and trade routes should be as safe as in history (which also varies a lot). Are they common and everywhere? Probably travel is going to be heavily impacted then, as will everything else. Are some monsters common and others uncommon? Okay, now it depends again. If orcs are common and dragons rare, then it will probably be more like passing through hostile lands in the real world. Bring guards and bribes, or pay tribute for safe passage to the orc leaders or whatever.

Magic of course rears its head here too. The Fantasy Trip for instance has magical gates, and mentions that some cities are never reached by land or sea, only gates. D&D 5e has Teleportation Circles that can link cities and other sites together. Old D&D can have this kind of stuff as well.

Don't you have to know the place before hand to be able to teleport there? Who built the gates/circles? Wouldn't wizards need to travel to a city to be able to link it with their city of origin? What about when those linked kingdoms get into war with each other? What's the capacity of those gates? One person? ten? a hundred? A whole cargo ship?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135172Don't you have to know the place before hand to be able to teleport there? Who built the gates/circles? Wouldn't wizards need to travel to a city to be able to link it with their city of origin? What about when those linked kingdoms get into war with each other? What's the capacity of those gates? One person? ten? a hundred? A whole cargo ship?

Again, depends on the setting. Cidri in TFT is basically the remains of a magitech empire created by a dimension-hopping family that built some sort of giant terrestrial planet (maybe, maybe something other than a planet) in what is basically Earth's orbit in a world with no Earth. Then they retired and the empire fell apart. A lot of gates are ancient, or at least the connections are. Gates fail, from time to time, but you can build backup gates. But sure, sometimes disaster might strike and you have to send a gate repair Wizard out to fix a connection. Gates can be set with conditions as well, and are probably set in defensible areas. If you come into a kill zone when passing through, invasion through gate won't be particularly feasible.

As for teleportation circles, you only need to know the sigil of the circle you're teleporting to. You can learn it by showing up and studying the circle, or it can be taught to you. At some point someone has to make those journeys, but the more magic heavy you get, the less often you'd need them.

Quote from: Blankman;1135175Again, depends on the setting. Cidri in TFT is basically the remains of a magitech empire created by a dimension-hopping family that built some sort of giant terrestrial planet (maybe, maybe something other than a planet) in what is basically Earth's orbit in a world with no Earth. Then they retired and the empire fell apart. A lot of gates are ancient, or at least the connections are. Gates fail, from time to time, but you can build backup gates. But sure, sometimes disaster might strike and you have to send a gate repair Wizard out to fix a connection. Gates can be set with conditions as well, and are probably set in defensible areas. If you come into a kill zone when passing through, invasion through gate won't be particularly feasible.

As for teleportation circles, you only need to know the sigil of the circle you're teleporting to. You can learn it by showing up and studying the circle, or it can be taught to you. At some point someone has to make those journeys, but the more magic heavy you get, the less often you'd need them.

Yes, my contention is that with so many different monsters plus normal bandits you'd need magical travel, but you still leave one point to be addressed:

Are those gates/circles capable of moving a whole cargo ship? What's their volume or weight capacity?

A point I hadn't think about: Aren't those methods gonna end up creating a monopoly?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135159First order of business (if I were in charge), is to build a series of forts along the land routes, not too far away from each other, roads and clear the forests around the roads, not a single tree or bush in a few hundred yards from the road.

Study the monster's patterns if they have any, and do some cleansing of the smaller pests.

Thats actually in AD&D and I think maybee BX. Travel along patrolled roads was fairly safe with a pretty low chance of an encounter. And not all encounters were hostile so there is that too. I'd have to break out the DMG to get the exact numbers.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135178Yes, my contention is that with so many different monsters plus normal bandits you'd need magical travel, but you still leave one point to be addressed:

Are those gates/circles capable of moving a whole cargo ship? What's their volume or weight capacity?

A point I hadn't think about: Aren't those methods gonna end up creating a monopoly?

Don't remember offhand now, but gates can get fairly large, and don't really have a cost for going through them. Teleportation circles in 5e are ten feet in diameter. That may seem small, but multiple strips with smaller cargo may be more cost effective than a cargo ship. Again, it depends. As for monopolies, sure. So? That kind of stuff happens all the time in real history too. Monopolies tend to form naturally. Then you might get someone else trying to break the monopoly, either with their own gates or circles, or through other means. Now you have a setup for conflict.

Quote from: Blankman;1135182Don't remember offhand now, but gates can get fairly large, and don't really have a cost for going through them. Teleportation circles in 5e are ten feet in diameter. That may seem small, but multiple strips with smaller cargo may be more cost effective than a cargo ship. Again, it depends. As for monopolies, sure. So? That kind of stuff happens all the time in real history too. Monopolies tend to form naturally. Then you might get someone else trying to break the monopoly, either with their own gates or circles, or through other means. Now you have a setup for conflict.

So a monopoly affects the prices of goods. Speaking of verisimilitude you need to take that stuff into account.

Since the monopoly would be magic based it would also probably affect the social standing of wizards, probably making them the rulers.

Geeky makes a good point and I pretty much agree with the OP. Though, some posters also bring a fair observation that this is bound to vary depending on how rare or common monsters are in the campaign world. But it does set an interesting case for consideration, since even in a world where monsters are rare their mere existence can throw a wrench at commerce, particularly trading across vast distances, which could bring a lot of opportunities for adventurers, but inevitably inflate the prices of goods and limit interaction between distant lands.

Normal wild animals can be a threat too. Bears, wolves, even wild boars and the like.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135184So a monopoly affects the prices of goods. Speaking of verisimilitude you need to take that stuff into account.

Since the monopoly would be magic based it would also probably affect the social standing of wizards, probably making them the rulers.

Not at all necessary or even probable. Without engineers, our entire modern society would fall apart. Yet engineers don't run society.