I got the Transformers RPG last night. Is anyone interested in a first reactions, and maybe a review post?
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 11, 2022, 04:20:15 PM
I got the Transformers RPG last night. Is anyone interested in a first reactions, and maybe a review post?
Definitely. Early reports on G.I. Joe and Power Rangers suggested some system design issues, but Transformers is the franchise I actually have some interest in, so I'd like to see if they've gotten things tuned up.
Alrighty First Impressions:
Lots of art. Between the CCG, the comics and the toy lines, there's a big art pool for them to draw from, and a few illustrations created for the RPG. (Like size comparison charts)
Layout seems ok. The text is legible and laid out well. I'd say it's comparable to 5th ed or Pathfinder in quality.
I'm flipping through the system, and some of the things that jumped out at me.
Alt modes (what your character transforms into) are highly abstract and the names are not very intuitive. "Champion" is a car of any type. "Monolith" is a big bruiser, like Optimus Prime's truck mode. "Lookouts" can be a flyer or a ground vehicle. Beasts are not in this version of the game, but they mention that they're planned for a future supplement. You can make a Beast mode with the current system (and they have stats for Ravage, the panther casette Deception) they just say the future rules will be more comprehensive.
Making an "Object" mode requires a specific perk in the Perks section, not the Alt mode section.
Weapons are mid-crunch, with a very low damage rating system. Like the average attack does 1 point of damage. Maybe increased by a very good attack roll, to x2 or x3, but for the most part, you're doing a flat 1 or 2 points of damage per attack.
Average mooks have less than 10 Health, with named Decepticons getting more like 11-24.
The system's got an Energon currency for doing really impressive feats, a Story Point currency for buying re-rolls and there's lots of mentions of how everyone is collaborating to tell a story, not play out a scenario. A bugagoo for me, since I dislike RPGs that try to tell a story, over setting up a situation. Thankfull, you can ignore most of this.
Core mechanics. Hoo boy. It's a D20 roll over target number or opposed test system, but there's a lot of stuff tacked on.
If you are unskilled, you roll with a "Snag", which means roll 2D20 and take the lower result.
If you are skilled, you roll a single D20 plus your level of skill gives you a bonus dice, from 1D2 to 1D12. (More with Shifts) Which you add to the D20 roll to get your final result.
If you are specialized in a skill, you roll a single D20, plus ALL the bonus dice from your skill level.
So a character with specialization and a D12 skill dice rolls 1D20 then rolls a D12, D10, D8, D6, D4 and D2, and picks the highest result from all the skill dice to add to the D20 roll.
*breath*
If you have Edge, you roll 2D20 and take the higher result.
So.
If you are specialized in a skill, and have Edge, you roll: 2D20 and take the higher result, then roll all your skill dice and add the highest result to your D20 roll.
You can also "shift" your skill dice up and down the skill ladder. So a 1 Up Shift will raise a D2 to a D4.
I have to wonder if they should have stuck with just a D20 roll, maybe with Edge and Snag, or maybe with skill ranks, but both seem to be a lot of shit to roll.
Weaons and equipment are assigned by requisition. So at the start of and adventure, you get average weapons and equipmment, and can roll for better but restricted gear.
Characters have 4 Hardpoints, and 2 hands (Called External Hardpoints) to slot weapons.
Size shifts attack and damage rolls up or down, depending on how big or small the attacker and defender are.
There's a dice ladder to keep track of all the dice shifting. from 1D2 to 1D12 for skill ranks, and shifts can take the bonus dice all the way from Auto Fumble, to Auto Fail, through the dice, up to Auto Success, and Auto Crit.
Character creation.
You have 4 "Essences" (I think I dislike that term) Strength, Speed, Smarts and Social. Stats range from 1-15, with starting characters getting 16 essence points to distribute between their stats.
Then pick your Influence, which is your background. Former Senator, Gladiator, etc. This will give your character a Perk related to their background.
Then pick an Origin, which will give you your character's Chassis (alt-mode) and starting Health and an Essence bonus.
Then pick your Role, which is your class. Warrior, Scientist, ModeMaster (Triple changers and characters who have built in minions like Soundwave)
Then pick skills. You get a skill for every Essence, so a Strength Essence of 4 would give you 4 Strength based skills, etc.
Then ick your default weapons and gear, though you're not locked into your choices until the adventure starts.
The back sections got stuff on how to run adventures, generic baddies, some named Decepticon baddies, some stats on humans and non-Transformer vehicles, and a short starter adventure.
There's some fluff, some short stories and exerpts, but it's thankfully brief. There's a lot of Transformers lore after 40 years of cartoons, comics and movies, and locking themselves into one vesrion would not be a wise decision, IMO.
Sum up, it's crunchier than I expected, but not as crunchy as I'd like. Some concepts are very fuzzy, and others are very specific. The dice rolling system looks clunky as hell. I think this is going to be a shelf-warmer. It's a niche (Transformers) genre for a niche (TT RPGs) hobby, with nothing to really stand out and make me want to run this system specifically.
Except.
It's an official, published game. And if I wanted to play Transformers, instead of introducing a group to some homebrew, they can get the offical RPG, read it at their lesiure, make characters on their own, etc. There's a certain legitimacy to a published game.
Accessories:
There are Transformers themed dice, including the D2 (A coin with Autobot and Decepticon faces) two D20's and the rest of the polyhedral shapes, and a dice bag available. I got both.
The dice are neat, and worth getting if you're a TF fan. The bag is... not so good. The bag is rigid and hard to close, and the vinyl Autobot logo looks like it will flake and rip with wear.
Do not reccomend the bag at all.
I got the Deluxe Edition of this rulebook direct from Renegade. I had preordered it and most of the other Essence20 products in March. They have been trickling in since.
My feelings are still conflicted on this game. It was the one of the three Essence20 games I had the highest hopes for.
I have not put up a personal commentary on this game yet. I'm not sure when I will.
Who's it by? I'm guessing Modiphius (hey, here's an rpg based off that thing you like- wait, what do you mean "play it?" Just give us money, put it on a shelf and wait for next product based off of something else you like."
Renegade Game Studios is who made it. They were allowed several Hasbro properties to make games from. The first three were Power Rangers, G.I. Joe, and Transformers. With My Little Pony next in line.
Threat
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/18/28/c5/1828c59023da78fd1cc0aea1a7f8160f.jpg)
The TF RPG uses Threat Level for building combat encounters. A Threat Level X bad guy is roughly a match for a party of four characters of the same level.
Does this mean the defenses of the bad guy are scaled to a level 10 attacker? That would mean all the opponents are scaled to be a kind of video game Raid Boss encounter.
Guys. Please stop doing this. I hardly ever want to have exactly one bad guy, and I might not have exactly four players, and while I can reverse-engineer your CR system, I shouldn't have to. Just give them a Level and I can take it from there.
Wow . . . this sounds painful from your description.
I'd much rather play the free fan RPG that James Kerr made for Transformers years ago -- you could actually use the stats that they used to put on the back of the toys with it. James posts here sometimes as Panjumanju.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on November 11, 2022, 04:36:24 PM
Definitely. Early reports on G.I. Joe and Power Rangers suggested some system design issues, but Transformers is the franchise I actually have some interest in, so I'd like to see if they've gotten things tuned up.
G.I. Joe goes into too much detail on certain aspects. Like actually requiring parachuting rolls. getting into the miniutia a bit too much. When the game should be a more cinematic affair. And handwave that sort of things. People aren't playing Twilight 2000. They are playing G.I. Joe.
The system focuses too much on real-world weapons. And in a game like Power Rangers, that's just unnecessary and out of place. But as for other issues? No more than any other first-printing game. And that's really true of all of the Essence20 games.
Transformers is the exception. Beast modes, and proper explanation of combiners are absent. Where instead there exists a completely unnecessary weapons requisition system.
Quote from: Thondor on November 12, 2022, 10:55:43 PM
Wow . . . this sounds painful from your description.
I'd much rather play the free fan RPG that James Kerr made for Transformers years ago -- you could actually use the stats that they used to put on the back of the toys with it. James posts here sometimes as Panjumanju.
I've got my own homebrew if it came to that.
It looks like they went through far too much effort to put things on a five foot grid, with ranges for the guns absurdly short and the movements absurdly tiny, even in alt modes. It's only wearing transformers as a skin, underneath it's some tactical medieval game.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on November 11, 2022, 11:38:19 PM
Who's it by? I'm guessing Modiphius (hey, here's an rpg based off that thing you like- wait, what do you mean "play it?" Just give us money, put it on a shelf and wait for next product based off of something else you like."
LOL. So very, very true.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 12, 2022, 06:13:46 PM
Threat
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/18/28/c5/1828c59023da78fd1cc0aea1a7f8160f.jpg)
The TF RPG uses Threat Level for building combat encounters. A Threat Level X bad guy is roughly a match for a party of four characters of the same level.
Does this mean the defenses of the bad guy are scaled to a level 10 attacker? That would mean all the opponents are scaled to be a kind of video game Raid Boss encounter.
Guys. Please stop doing this. I hardly ever want to have exactly one bad guy, and I might not have exactly four players, and while I can reverse-engineer your CR system, I shouldn't have to. Just give them a Level and I can take it from there.
Sounds like a
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Spot_the_cow.gif)
I made a character.
I started easy. An Autobot car. If the system can't handle that...
Most Transformer-ey names have already been taken at this point, so I picked Highbeam, an obscure G2 toy. I think we can say that Transformers can have the same name, like Bob or Sally. Just pick an obscure character and not name your character Optimus Prime...
A neat trick I picked up from Metal Wars is a three word descriptive. So he's Highbeam, Reckless Autobot Gambler.
Most G1 Autobot cars are armed with some kind of rifle or pistol, and a shoulder mounted rocket or missile. Most Transformers also have some kind of ability. Like stealth or specialized sensors or a hologram projector. A kind of tech superpower. I want Highbeam to have the ability to dazzle his opponent's sensors with a blast of light from his car headlights.
I picked Champion for the car alt mode. His role is Gunner.
I placed all 16 stat points, since I knew he'd get 12 plus four from role and origin. But keep an eye on the bonus 4 stat points. Skills linked to those stat points are limited to certain selections.
I put 3 in Strength, he's not especially strong. 5 in Speed, he's a fast car, and Speed is used for ranged attacks. I put 3 in Smarts. He's not particularly intelligent. And 5 in Social. He is a bit of a fast talker.
I then picked out skills, Athletics so he can do adventurey-things like jumping and climbing. I put 1 in conditioning, giving him an extra Health point, and 1 in Might in case he gets in melee combat.
I put a point into Driving, which is used when a character is making skill tests in car mode, 1 point into Initiative so I'm not rolling with a Snag for init, and 3 points into Targeting, the skill used for ranged combat.
1 point into Alertness, and 1 point into culture.
2 points into persuasion and 3 points into streetwise.
At 1st level, I don't get access to cool powers, or a shoulder mounted rocket, so I arm him with a Blaster Rifle and a pair of Blaster Pistols. I figure for range, he'll use the rifle, for close in combat, he'll dual wield pistols (at a penalty).
I'm... not sure if I can load down on armor kits or not, so I skip that bit of equipment, even though I've technically got slot for it. The requisition system isn't very clear.
I list my perks from role and origin and get Armament (an extra hardpoint), Pistol Whip, Rapid Reload and Quick Draw.
He gets 3 health plus 1 for the skill pick, and his Energon value is equal to the lowest stat, so 3 Energon.
I fill in his defenses, Toughness, Evasion, Willpower and Cleverness, which are target numbers when being attacked or intimidated, etc...
(https://i.imgur.com/1amyvta.png)
Interestingly, the rules don't mention making Decepticon characters, but it's an option to fill out on the offical character sheet. (I've tweaked it here for room for the character picture)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 11, 2022, 04:20:15 PM
I got the Transformers RPG last night. Is anyone interested in a first reactions, and maybe a review post?
A YouTube vid.
I like the Essence20 system and there is a gem of game design in the core system but it's marred by a few things...
It's forced into a class and level structure when it probably would be better as a point buy character build system and instead of gaining levels it had a point cost for different abilities.
It has no character Advancement rules in any of the 3 games. Like nothing. It doesn't say to use story, or milestone, and certainly no XP. Just not mentioned. No advice on building higher level characters.
No GM chapter. No tools for building encounters. No tools for making your own threats. No adventure building. No structure. It does have a lot of pre-built threats to pick from though.
Characters start at level 1, but majority of pre-built threats are way over level 1.
It's too shoehorned into the class and level structure due to the licensing from Hasbro.
The actual dice system is really cool. Each has some nice gear customization tools. The character creation system is versatile and is varied enough between the 3 games that they do seem to fit the universes in question.
I just think what they made is a better fit for a XP character build game where everything after character creation costs XP to advance instead of leveling up.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on November 13, 2022, 11:34:48 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 11, 2022, 04:20:15 PM
I got the Transformers RPG last night. Is anyone interested in a first reactions, and maybe a review post?
A YouTube vid.
I don't think I'd be very good at making a youtube video review.
Quote from: RebelSky on November 13, 2022, 04:43:13 PM
I like the Essence20 system and there is a gem of game design in the core system but it's marred by a few things...
It's forced into a class and level structure when it probably would be better as a point buy character build system and instead of gaining levels it had a point cost for different abilities.
It has no character Advancement rules in any of the 3 games. Like nothing. It doesn't say to use story, or milestone, and certainly no XP. Just not mentioned. No advice on building higher level characters.
No GM chapter. No tools for building encounters. No tools for making your own threats. No adventure building. No structure. It does have a lot of pre-built threats to pick from though.
Characters start at level 1, but majority of pre-built threats are way over level 1.
It's too shoehorned into the class and level structure due to the licensing from Hasbro.
The actual dice system is really cool. Each has some nice gear customization tools. The character creation system is versatile and is varied enough between the 3 games that they do seem to fit the universes in question.
I just think what they made is a better fit for a XP character build game where everything after character creation costs XP to advance instead of leveling up.
Yeah, I've been holding off on some comments since I haven't scoured the book cover to cover, but there does not seem to be any system or even guidelines on how to level up in a level based system.
Quote from: Thondor on November 12, 2022, 10:55:43 PM
Wow . . . this sounds painful from your description.
I'd much rather play the free fan RPG that James Kerr made for Transformers years ago -- you could actually use the stats that they used to put on the back of the toys with it. James posts here sometimes as Panjumanju.
I, too,would prefer using the real tech-specs (G1). I made a prototype for a Transformers CCG, and I used the characters' real stats. I someday must revise that game and play it for my own amusement.
Reading through the book is an adventure. Things in other Essence20 books are not in the same place as this one.
It was blind luck that I found the section on playing characters above 1st level last night.
The Essence20 books really need a good index.
I dowloaded the free PDF of pregen characters from Renegade's website. A bunch of named Autobots like Jazz and Arcee and Bumblebee.
All the characters have the expected health of a starting character. this cements my opinion that the named Decepticons are meant to be solo bosses, with their 10+ health.
I see that this, as well as the GI Joe and Power Rangers games, have a spot on the character sheet for pronouns. Is that the extent of it or are there any other signs of wokeness in the book? I'm mostly interested in the GI Joe game. If that's as far as that shit goes it's fine, but that is a big warning sign these days.
Quote from: rgalex on November 14, 2022, 07:48:14 AM
I see that this, as well as the GI Joe and Power Rangers games, have a spot on the character sheet for pronouns. Is that the extent of it or are there any other signs of wokeness in the book? I'm mostly interested in the GI Joe game. If that's as far as that shit goes it's fine, but that is a big warning sign these days.
PRONOUNS:BAH!!!
In the comic universe, Transformers don't even have genders, because they're robots.
In the expanded cartoon universe (fan comic Dojinshi #2, set in the cartoon universe), there are genders (exactly 2, like humans) because non-first gen TFs have half a key to Vector Sigma, and both half-keys are required to make new TF life.
It varies. There's a wiki page about female transformers: https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Female_Transformer
Earthspark just introduced Nightshade, a non-binary transformer.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on November 14, 2022, 08:32:49 AM
In the comic universe, Transformers don't even have genders, because they're robots.
There are a bunch of timelines, and there's been varying (or no) justification given for the presence, absence, or rarity of, "female" transformers. In some timelines transformers have something akin to sexual reproduction, in others they do not. In the most popular and long lasting recent timeline, basically one of the original ancient transformers was "female", and since every transformer kind of "comes from" one of those, then you end up with some that are "female" in that same proportion. This was a reasonable explanation that didn't push any politics and tried to adeptly handle the rarity and the existence. That same company later would go on to reboot everything a couple years ago, in the most recent and hated timeline, they did all manner of gender crap. This timeline has been shitcanned (probably not for that reason) when IDW lost the license. Here they actually went through the effort of having "male" and "female" as an aspect of the spark, specifically so that Arcee could have been "born a male" and then transed over to female, complete with body reconstruction. That, of course, is totally absurd- even if you believe that people can be "born in the wrong body" or whatever, it seems pretty ludicrous to assume that it is a top narrative priority to move this idea over to fictional toy robots that come out of energy souls or something.
Anyway, even if you are playing in that defunct timeline, you still wouldn't end up with "pronouns" being how to represent that- you would have sex or gender (ironically, this being the only time out of all their games where "gender" might be appropriate). This is entirely an issue with Renegade, and is present in all their products.
The people working on transformers patterned them after human men in terms of facial structure and voice, then added female characters later and gave them human-like relationships. None of this made sense. Why do transformers neatly conform to the physical profiles that what we associate with men and women? I know it's because humans can't help but imagine non-humans as being exactly like humans even though it makes no sense, but in this case they set themselves up to be caught in the gender craze.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 14, 2022, 04:16:31 PM
...in this case they set themselves up to be caught in the gender craze.
I mean, yes and no. Remember, many of the movers and shakers in this were actually lefty types even in the 80s, but they couldn't get away with much yet. So to some degree, yes, certainly- there was no reason to have the robots ever seem like they had anything analogous to a human sex.
...but once they did, they definitely didn't need to have anything analogous to sexual relationships (brought about as near as I can tell specifically so that they could introduce a homosexual relationship), or to have the idea that the body you were fated to have was the "wrong gender" and you needed to be a trans
2former. Nothing in the idea of "lets make a pink one to see if girls buy the toys too" equates to any of that.
Anyway, while "pronouns" is definitely the stupidest and most offensive piece of that character sheet, a close second has gotta be "animal handling". This is a race of million year old robots, and like a good chunk of their potential "social" powers is how to ride a horse or whatever? That has to be totally ridiculous. I'd expect something to the effect of diplomacy with non-cybertronians would be the order of the day there- that would also help you if you were gonna run these Autobots anywhere but Earth, given that their universe is full of various robotic and non-robotic life.
Also, my impression is that you want to specialize in whatever gun you actually plan on using. Unless I'm reading it wrong (and I could be), this lets you roll a pile of dice and take the highest, on every single to-hit roll using your chosen weapon. If that's legal, then wouldn't everyone do it? It's actually one of my pet peeves with skill-based games (which this kind of is) that level based games usually pass on. Is it cheesy to specialize in your blaster pistol or whatever? If you were like a factory worker on cybertron or something suitably autobotty? I feel it is not, it's like one single pip of speed point or whatever for a huge boost to-hit, wouldn't you be doing that basically at level 1, or did I miss a rule blocking that?
Quote from: rgalex on November 14, 2022, 07:48:14 AM
I see that this, as well as the GI Joe and Power Rangers games, have a spot on the character sheet for pronouns. Is that the extent of it or are there any other signs of wokeness in the book? I'm mostly interested in the GI Joe game. If that's as far as that shit goes it's fine, but that is a big warning sign these days.
Can't speak to the GI Joe game, but the pronouns spot on the character sheet is all the identity politics I've seen in the TF game so far.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on November 14, 2022, 08:32:49 AM
Quote from: rgalex on November 14, 2022, 07:48:14 AM
I see that this, as well as the GI Joe and Power Rangers games, have a spot on the character sheet for pronouns. Is that the extent of it or are there any other signs of wokeness in the book? I'm mostly interested in the GI Joe game. If that's as far as that shit goes it's fine, but that is a big warning sign these days.
PRONOUNS:BAH!!!
In the comic universe, Transformers don't even have genders, because they're robots.
Robots that evolved though natural selection.
(https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/thumb/e/e6/Marvel_issue_1_Cybertron.jpg/800px-Marvel_issue_1_Cybertron.jpg)
(https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/f/f1/Pulleys.jpg)
Until they retconned it into a divine origin by the Transformer God Primus. Hallelujah! Amen.
(https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/7/7f/Primus_original.jpg)
If Transformers "evolved" this implies some kind of self replication analagous to organic beings. If they were created by Robot God, then he could make them male and female as he sees fit.
In either (and more) cases, Transformers definitley present as gendered.
Quote from: Venka on November 14, 2022, 04:30:25 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 14, 2022, 04:16:31 PM
...in this case they set themselves up to be caught in the gender craze.
I mean, yes and no. Remember, many of the movers and shakers in this were actually lefty types even in the 80s, but they couldn't get away with much yet. So to some degree, yes, certainly- there was no reason to have the robots ever seem like they had anything analogous to a human sex.
...but once they did, they definitely didn't need to have anything analogous to sexual relationships (brought about as near as I can tell specifically so that they could introduce a homosexual relationship), or to have the idea that the body you were fated to have was the "wrong gender" and you needed to be a trans2former. Nothing in the idea of "lets make a pink one to see if girls buy the toys too" equates to any of that.
Anyway, while "pronouns" is definitely the stupidest and most offensive piece of that character sheet, a close second has gotta be "animal handling". This is a race of million year old robots, and like a good chunk of their potential "social" powers is how to ride a horse or whatever? That has to be totally ridiculous. I'd expect something to the effect of diplomacy with non-cybertronians would be the order of the day there- that would also help you if you were gonna run these Autobots anywhere but Earth, given that their universe is full of various robotic and non-robotic life.
Also, my impression is that you want to specialize in whatever gun you actually plan on using. Unless I'm reading it wrong (and I could be), this lets you roll a pile of dice and take the highest, on every single to-hit roll using your chosen weapon. If that's legal, then wouldn't everyone do it? It's actually one of my pet peeves with skill-based games (which this kind of is) that level based games usually pass on. Is it cheesy to specialize in your blaster pistol or whatever? If you were like a factory worker on cybertron or something suitably autobotty? I feel it is not, it's like one single pip of speed point or whatever for a huge boost to-hit, wouldn't you be doing that basically at level 1, or did I miss a rule blocking that?
Worse, if you roll maximum on any of those skill dice, except the D2, your roll is a critical. That gives a character with two pips in any skill, or any character rolling a specialized skill with two or more pips, a 25% chance to crit. :o
Quote from: rgalex on November 14, 2022, 07:48:14 AM
I see that this, as well as the GI Joe and Power Rangers games, have a spot on the character sheet for pronouns. Is that the extent of it or are there any other signs of wokeness in the book? I'm mostly interested in the GI Joe game. If that's as far as that shit goes it's fine, but that is a big warning sign these days.
Pronouns on the PC Sheet? Nope, fuck that product then. This isn't twitter, these are robots. Stop that nonsense.
Can someone link the fan project instead as this product seems to be doing 5E without calling it 5E.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 15, 2022, 12:33:42 AM
Worse, if you roll maximum on any of those skill dice, except the D2, your roll is a critical. That gives a character with two pips in any skill, or any character rolling a specialized skill with two or more pips, a 25% chance to crit. :o
Oh boy, that's Savage Worlds probability weirdness rearing its head. With a low skill ranking in SWADE (d4 or d6), you have less of a chance to succeed conventionally, but your chance to explode the dice is a LOT greater.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 15, 2022, 12:26:03 AM
If Transformers "evolved" this implies some kind of self replication analagous to organic beings. If they were created by Robot God, then he could make them male and female as he sees fit.
In either (and more) cases, Transformers definitley present as gendered.
Interesting. I wasn't into Transformers, but my son had a Beast Wars phase growing up. Evidently female Autobots were first introduced in the second season cartoon episode "The Search for Alpha Trion", to which Shockwave commented: "Female Autobots? I thought they were extinct."
There were a bunch of new transformers created in the shows by different ways. The Dinobots were directly built by Wheeljack and Ratchet, but in Beast Wars there's a spark that starts with a "protoform", and apparently in the comics new transformers are created by budding. They never seem to be created from mothers and fathers, though.
So it would seem like transformers definitely present as gendered, but they don't have sex in a physical sense even as analogy to biological life.
Quote from: jhkim on November 15, 2022, 12:34:28 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 15, 2022, 12:26:03 AM
If Transformers "evolved" this implies some kind of self replication analagous to organic beings. If they were created by Robot God, then he could make them male and female as he sees fit.
In either (and more) cases, Transformers definitley present as gendered.
Interesting. I wasn't into Transformers, but my son had a Beast Wars phase growing up. Evidently female Autobots were first introduced in the second season cartoon episode "The Search for Alpha Trion", to which Shockwave commented: "Female Autobots? I thought they were extinct."
There were a bunch of new transformers created in the shows by different ways. The Dinobots were directly built by Wheeljack and Ratchet, but in Beast Wars there's a spark that starts with a "protoform", and apparently in the comics new transformers are created by budding. They never seem to be created from mothers and fathers, though.
So it would seem like transformers definitely present as gendered, but they don't have sex in a physical sense even as analogy to biological life.
(https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/thumb/2/2b/KillAllCons_ScorponokWithLilBaby.jpg/332px-KillAllCons_ScorponokWithLilBaby.jpg)
Depends on the continuity. More importantly, it depends on whose writing the continuity at the moment.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Reproduction
In any case, the Transformers are definitley gendered. Their body and facial dimorphism matches biological, specifically human dimorphism far too much. Kind of like Star Trek's "bumpy forehead" aliens, Transformers look and act like human beings more than robots.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 15, 2022, 12:49:41 PM
In any case, the Transformers are definitley gendered. Their body and facial dimorphism matches biological, specifically human dimorphism far too much. Kind of like Star Trek's "bumpy forehead" aliens, Transformers look and act like human beings more than robots.
It depends on the writer (unsurprisingly).
I'll give IDW credit for coming up with a rather interesting explanation as to why some Transformers have normal articulated hands and faces, while others do not: it's the result of a punishment called 'empurata' (a nod to the old Roman punishment of ampurata), where they forcibly modify a Cybertronian.
(Also, there is a running gag of at least one Autobot with a mask-face complaining about how he can't make a 'pfft' sound.)
Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 15, 2022, 01:28:57 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 15, 2022, 12:49:41 PM
In any case, the Transformers are definitley gendered. Their body and facial dimorphism matches biological, specifically human dimorphism far too much. Kind of like Star Trek's "bumpy forehead" aliens, Transformers look and act like human beings more than robots.
It depends on the writer (unsurprisingly).
I'm talking about their physicality, which is not affected by writers due to them being based on toys. With only a little interpretation in the beginning since the toys were from various toy lines imported from Japan.
QuoteI'll give IDW credit for coming up with a rather interesting explanation as to why some Transformers have normal articulated hands and faces, while others do not: it's the result of a punishment called 'empurata' (a nod to the old Roman punishment of ampurata), where they forcibly modify a Cybertronian.
I'd have to read the story, but that would mean that almost all Transformers suffered this punishment, including their important leaders. A small amount of Transformers have more "robotic" features, like a claw for a hand, or a head without a human-like face.
Quote(Also, there is a running gag of at least one Autobot with a mask-face complaining about how he can't make a 'pfft' sound.)
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/291/937/807.png)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 15, 2022, 12:49:41 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 15, 2022, 12:34:28 PM
There were a bunch of new transformers created in the shows by different ways. The Dinobots were directly built by Wheeljack and Ratchet, but in Beast Wars there's a spark that starts with a "protoform", and apparently in the comics new transformers are created by budding. They never seem to be created from mothers and fathers, though.
So it would seem like transformers definitely present as gendered, but they don't have sex in a physical sense even as analogy to biological life.
(https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/thumb/2/2b/KillAllCons_ScorponokWithLilBaby.jpg/332px-KillAllCons_ScorponokWithLilBaby.jpg)
Depends on the continuity. More importantly, it depends on whose writing the continuity at the moment.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Reproduction
Are we disagreeing? The wiki entry you link says "Although the vast majority of Transformers universes feature both male and female Transformers with an understanding of love, the vast majority of Transformers do not reproduce sexually, and indeed regard this kind of procreation as something entirely alien to their mechanical worldview." That's what I was trying to say.
The quoted comic image is from Scorponok's Frankensteinian attempt to create a organic-mechanical hybrid being, and isn't presented as how new Transformers are normally created. There are a lot of different ways that new transformers are created in different continuities, but I can't see even one example where a new transformer is created by having a female transformer mother and a male transformer father. There are verbal references to parents, but those could easily be references to creators or nurturers. i.e. Wheeljack and Ratchet are the parents of the Dinobots.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 15, 2022, 12:49:41 PM
In any case, the Transformers are definitley gendered. Their body and facial dimorphism matches biological, specifically human dimorphism far too much. Kind of like Star Trek's "bumpy forehead" aliens, Transformers look and act like human beings more than robots.
Agreed.
Quote from: jhkim on November 15, 2022, 01:53:49 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 15, 2022, 12:49:41 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 15, 2022, 12:34:28 PM
There were a bunch of new transformers created in the shows by different ways. The Dinobots were directly built by Wheeljack and Ratchet, but in Beast Wars there's a spark that starts with a "protoform", and apparently in the comics new transformers are created by budding. They never seem to be created from mothers and fathers, though.
So it would seem like transformers definitely present as gendered, but they don't have sex in a physical sense even as analogy to biological life.
(https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/thumb/2/2b/KillAllCons_ScorponokWithLilBaby.jpg/332px-KillAllCons_ScorponokWithLilBaby.jpg)
Depends on the continuity. More importantly, it depends on whose writing the continuity at the moment.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Reproduction
Are we disagreeing? The wiki entry you link says "Although the vast majority of Transformers universes feature both male and female Transformers with an understanding of love, the vast majority of Transformers do not reproduce sexually, and indeed regard this kind of procreation as something entirely alien to their mechanical worldview." That's what I was trying to say.
The quoted comic image is from Scorponok's Frankensteinian attempt to create a organic-mechanical hybrid being, and isn't presented as how new Transformers are normally created. There are a lot of different ways that new transformers are created in different continuities, but I can't see even one example where a new transformer is created by having a female transformer mother and a male transformer father. There are verbal references to parents, but those could easily be references to creators or nurturers. i.e. Wheeljack and Ratchet are the parents of the Dinobots.
I'm just pointing out that the comics tend to go in whacky directions. I would not be shocked if some writer made up "robosex" and "robopregnancy". They've done plenty of analagous types of organic reproduction for Transformers so far.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 15, 2022, 02:03:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 15, 2022, 01:53:49 PM
Are we disagreeing? The wiki entry you link says "Although the vast majority of Transformers universes feature both male and female Transformers with an understanding of love, the vast majority of Transformers do not reproduce sexually, and indeed regard this kind of procreation as something entirely alien to their mechanical worldview." That's what I was trying to say.
I'm just pointing out that the comics tend to go in whacky directions. I would not be shocked if some writer made up "robosex" and "robopregnancy". They've done plenty of analagous types of organic reproduction for Transformers so far.
Fair enough. I would not be shocked either, but the wiki doesn't make mention of it - and it seems pretty thorough. There have been a bunch of times that new transformers were created in the original series and subsequent series. I'm not even a fan and I remember the Dinobots being made and the Beast Wars episode where a protoform was released.
Regarding the character sheet, this is a case where "sex" doesn't make much sense as a character label, since the characters don't seem to have biological sex, though they do have a gender identity.
Well, the fanfics certainly ran with the idea of transformers having naughty bits.
Quote from: jhkim on November 15, 2022, 02:51:28 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 15, 2022, 02:03:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim on November 15, 2022, 01:53:49 PM
Are we disagreeing? The wiki entry you link says "Although the vast majority of Transformers universes feature both male and female Transformers with an understanding of love, the vast majority of Transformers do not reproduce sexually, and indeed regard this kind of procreation as something entirely alien to their mechanical worldview." That's what I was trying to say.
I'm just pointing out that the comics tend to go in whacky directions. I would not be shocked if some writer made up "robosex" and "robopregnancy". They've done plenty of analagous types of organic reproduction for Transformers so far.
Fair enough. I would not be shocked either, but the wiki doesn't make mention of it - and it seems pretty thorough. There have been a bunch of times that new transformers were created in the original series and subsequent series. I'm not even a fan and I remember the Dinobots being made and the Beast Wars episode where a protoform was released.
Regarding the character sheet, this is a case where "sex" doesn't make much sense as a character label, since the characters don't seem to have biological sex, though they do have a gender identity.
Yep. In another time I wouldn't have raised an eyebrow at pronouns, but with the culture war I do.
Quote from: jhkim on November 15, 2022, 12:34:28 PM
They never seem to be created from mothers and fathers, though.
I'm really gonna recommend you stop trying to make "this is how it be" kinds of posts about this, because like I said there are a lot of timelines, and I really doubt you want me or anyone else motivated by completionism to shit the thread up with any of the few spots where there are families, or some kind of pregnancy equivalent. I want to emphasize that there are MANY transformer timelines at this point, and there is no attempt to line them up. Each timeline gives different details that often conflict, and the things they say in other timelines aren't retcons, they are separate universes entirely. Even statements you pull off a wiki may only be relevant to one, or many, timelines, allowing someone to go and pull up some crap you've never heard of. Is any of that particularly helpful?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 15, 2022, 02:59:02 PM
Well, the fanfics certainly ran with the idea of transformers having naughty bits.
I mean, it IS the internet...
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 15, 2022, 03:26:27 PM
Yep. In another time I wouldn't have raised an eyebrow at pronouns, but with the culture war I do.
Having a section for "gender" would probably be the most accurate thing, as transformers are generally depicted as having an assumed sex role of some sort (in some cases you could claim they are asexual for awhile, and then someone dumps a femme into the story and everything just proceeds like that's just normal now), but not usually depicted as having an actual physical sex (again, there are exceptions).
But having "pronouns" isn't even CORRECT. The entire idea of including a "pronoun" section is to create a situation where you, the shitlord chud, have to either bitch about it, thus setting yourself apart, capitulate, thus granting their mob religion power over you, or leave it blank, thus opening yourself to several crybully techniques ("decent people do it", "it's inclusive", "not doing it normalizes the evil bad past", etc.). It also is pretty centered about the English speaking world, and it extends that crap to all of the entire universe, including million year old societies of sentient robotst that turn into cool toys. It's completely inappropriate and insulting, and is done entirely for culture war reasons- because even if the idea was that you could have boy and girl robots, as well as gay and straight robots, as well as transtransformers, you'd STILL not have "pronouns" as an entry.
I've been playing this game online for several sessions now and we are having a blast. I even play as a Dinobot and it was fairly easy to do despite the game not yet having full rules out to do that, only some basic guidelines.
Here is a great YouTube review for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taWAUl9xL6o&ab_channel=DaveThaumavoreRPGReviews (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taWAUl9xL6o&ab_channel=DaveThaumavoreRPGReviews)
Quote from: Batjon on November 15, 2022, 07:23:49 PM
I've been playing this game online for several sessions now and we are having a blast. I even play as a Dinobot and it was fairly easy to do despite the game not yet having full rules out to do that, only some basic guidelines.
Hrm that's pretty good, I didn't give much thought as to how dinobots could work there either. Good to hear either way.
Quote from: Batjon on November 15, 2022, 07:23:49 PM
I've been playing this game online for several sessions now and we are having a blast. I even play as a Dinobot and it was fairly easy to do despite the game not yet having full rules out to do that, only some basic guidelines.
Here is a great YouTube review for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taWAUl9xL6o&ab_channel=DaveThaumavoreRPGReviews (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taWAUl9xL6o&ab_channel=DaveThaumavoreRPGReviews)
Well damn. It's good to see some positivity in the thread. I have a few questions if you don't mind.
1. How is your group handling xp/gaining levels?
2. How is the core mechanic? I'm especially interested in the crit system, as mentioned earlier.
3. How is combat "balance"? The damage system seems very simple to me.
4. Overall, does it feel Transformer-ey?
I ran a MSH campaign where I snuck the Transformers in. Puh-lenty of content out there.
https://transformers-msh-faserip.fandom.com/wiki/Transformers_(MSH_-_FASERIP)_Wiki
And since it's MSH - you know the system can easily handle anything you'd ever find in the Transformers universe. And of course the system *rocks*...
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 15, 2022, 02:59:02 PM
Well, the fanfics certainly ran with the idea of transformers having naughty bits.
The Michael Bay movies don't count and you know it. ;D
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 18, 2022, 01:48:56 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 15, 2022, 02:59:02 PM
Well, the fanfics certainly ran with the idea of transformers having naughty bits.
The Michael Bay movies don't count and you know it. ;D
A song about Michael Bay that is very true
https://tinnitis.bandcamp.com/track/michael-bay-sucks-album-mix
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 11, 2022, 04:20:15 PM
I got the Transformers RPG last night. Is anyone interested in a first reactions, and maybe a review post?
I haven't picked up the TF RPG but when I read through the PR RPG I was so disgusted I am now actively making my own Sentai/Toku inspired RPG essentially out of spite. In general it's an under served niche despite being perfect for RPGs. The closest "good" sentai RPG is the anime and mecha splatbook for Mutants and Masterminds. And it's still not great.
As a more general rant, why do so many licenced games just want to be a regular RPG with a skin on as opposed to something that represents concepts and the feeling of a game through it's mechanics. It's a fun design challenge to figure out how morphing, megazords and so on would work in the context of an RPG but most don't go beyond crunch heavy tables and that's it.
Quote from: King Tyranno on November 19, 2022, 09:02:43 AM
As a more general rant, why do so many licenced games just want to be a regular RPG with a skin on as opposed to something that represents concepts and the feeling of a game through it's mechanics. It's a fun design challenge to figure out how morphing, megazords and so on would work in the context of an RPG but most don't go beyond crunch heavy tables and that's it.
I'm not sure, but I suspect there is a development time problem. Most of the licensed RPGs that I've seen have seemed very rushed, with a few exceptions like TSR's Marvel Superheroes.
I think the company can't be sure of getting a given license, and once they have the license, they are rushed to get the licensed RPG out the door quickly. Maybe the standard is that they pay for the license as soon as they have exclusive rights, not from when they start publishing? One of the worst cases I can recall was Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG, which clearly had no playtest of many parts.
Also, I getting licensing is a skill and specialty in itself. The companies that successfully do it aren't so much into custom design, plus they probably don't want to take risks with an expensive license. Certain companies would get a string of licenses once they got the expertise to do so, like West End Games and Decipher.
Quote from: King Tyranno on November 19, 2022, 09:02:43 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 11, 2022, 04:20:15 PM
I got the Transformers RPG last night. Is anyone interested in a first reactions, and maybe a review post?
I haven't picked up the TF RPG but when I read through the PR RPG I was so disgusted I am now actively making my own Sentai/Toku inspired RPG essentially out of spite. In general it's an under served niche despite being perfect for RPGs. The closest "good" sentai RPG is the anime and mecha splatbook for Mutants and Masterminds. And it's still not great.
As a more general rant, why do so many licenced games just want to be a regular RPG with a skin on as opposed to something that represents concepts and the feeling of a game through it's mechanics. It's a fun design challenge to figure out how morphing, megazords and so on would work in the context of an RPG but most don't go beyond crunch heavy tables and that's it.
The same reason why we get a glut of formulaic movies. Licenses aren't cheap, and coming up with something new and innovative is hard. The broader an audience you can reach, the more you make back that money to buy the rights to the IP. Thus, they go with adapting an existing system, with just a little innovation around the edges.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 19, 2022, 02:18:19 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on November 19, 2022, 09:02:43 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 11, 2022, 04:20:15 PM
I got the Transformers RPG last night. Is anyone interested in a first reactions, and maybe a review post?
I haven't picked up the TF RPG but when I read through the PR RPG I was so disgusted I am now actively making my own Sentai/Toku inspired RPG essentially out of spite. In general it's an under served niche despite being perfect for RPGs. The closest "good" sentai RPG is the anime and mecha splatbook for Mutants and Masterminds. And it's still not great.
As a more general rant, why do so many licenced games just want to be a regular RPG with a skin on as opposed to something that represents concepts and the feeling of a game through it's mechanics. It's a fun design challenge to figure out how morphing, megazords and so on would work in the context of an RPG but most don't go beyond crunch heavy tables and that's it.
The same reason why we get a glut of formulaic movies. Licenses aren't cheap, and coming up with something new and innovative is hard. The broader an audience you can reach, the more you make back that money to buy the rights to the IP. Thus, they go with adapting an existing system, with just a little innovation around the edges.
Also related to this, most people outside of the odd hardcore TTRPG gamer aren't willing to try out new and "innovative" systems, or even established systems that aren't the one that they already know. People outside the hobby are also difficult to draw in with odd systems that aren't D&D. They want established recognizable brands, which in TTRPGs means D&D or derived games.
Add that to the issues related to acquiring and retaining a license and you're gonna end up with a lot of derived games, specially given the popularity of 5e.
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 19, 2022, 05:54:28 PM
Also related to this, most people outside of the odd hardcore TTRPG gamer aren't willing to try out new and "innovative" systems, or even established systems that aren't the one that they already know. People outside the hobby are also difficult to draw in with odd systems that aren't D&D. They want established recognizable brands, which in TTRPGs means D&D or derived games.
But a lot of licensed games haven't used systems that were previously popular. Victory Games' James Bond 007 system, D6 for West End's Ghostbusters and Star Wars, Cinematic Unisystem for Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Army of Darkness, Decipher's CODA system for Star Trek and Lord of the Rings, Modiphius' 2d20, etc.
Licensed games can be a good gateway for newcomers to enjoy a new system outside of D&D. Non-gamers get drawn in by the license tie-in, not by having a system they recognize.