Greetings!

I have several different shamanistic traditions in my Thandor world, essentially large regional/Ethnic traditions, from which the different shaman traditions have some differentiation in skills, some spells, different magical abilities, foci, and talents, as well as Philosophy and Cosmology.

It definitely provides reinforcement of different cultural talents and philosophies, and as a kind of magical tradition, something that is at least somewhat different from a more civilized religious pantheon served by Clerics, and of course Schoos of Arcane Wizardry.

How do you characterize and detail Shamanism in your own campaigns?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My equivalent to shaman traditions is broken up and spread through more than the shaman distinctly, and in some cases a part of the standard rules. 

I have 4 magic traditions, Celestial, Faerie, Primeval, and Wizardry.  Any class of caster can be from any tradition. A shaman is not a class, but an option that any class could take.  So a celestial adept  shaman is a different slant than a primeval sorcerer shaman.  Likewise different than a celestial adept skald or celestial adept mage.  Each piece qualifies the character further.

Then the shaman path is focused on spirits and how you interact with them.  You learn from a shaman that venerates ancestors, then your spirits appears as either your actual ancestors or at least the mystical ancestors of your family/clan/tribe/etc.  Or you could learn from someone that has animal totems as their spirits.  Or could be guardian spirits, which can be almost anything. 

Shamanism isn't really a thing in my setting. The closest would be the Old Faith, but it's strictly monotheistic with "primal spirits" acting as Biblical angels within the setting. They mostly exist in less developed regions of the post-apocalyptic world, having been exiled from the polytheistic urban regions before the Cataclysm.

There exist three main traditions/sub-groups of the Old Faith (the Promised, the Remnant, and the Eldritch), but their religious leaders are called Speakers (an alternate translation of the Hebrew word for Prophet) who brings the concerns of the community to The Source and, in turn, instruct the community in The Source's laws and mysteries.

There also exist Mystics (roughly analogous to the more supernaturally gifted Biblical Judges) and Gifted (those with lesser divine charisms), but they are not automatically religious leaders, just heroes of the Old Faith.

They also don't choose to be Mystics or Gifted... the supernatural gifts just manifest in whom they will. Someone who spends a lifetime contemplating the mysteries and nature of The Source could never receive that grace while a non-believer with the potential to become a believer and in the right place to aid The Source's plan might receive mighty supernatural abilities.

Also of note is that, Speakers don't automatically have magic, unless they also happen to be a Mystic or Gifted (which arise seemingly at random in the moment, and sometimes not even in believers, but with a clear purpose to the gifts in retrospect).

Similarly, the polytheistic faiths have no magic of their own, but both they and members of the Old Faith can study magery; a "sufficiently advanced technology" based 'magic'; in the same way priests and religious can study the sciences today.

Now, there are secretive groups that wield supernatural abilities more akin Shamen and their interactions with spirits. They are the Diabolists; who forms pacts with or even allows fallen primal spirits to possess them; and the Necromancers; who tear out a piece of their own souls and allow the power of The Shadow World (ie. Hell) to seep into the wound.

But these aren't really suitable for use as PCs because both corrupt and enslave the free will of their users... and being a slave to evil is the antithesis of the setting's superversive nature (PCs are expected to be virtuous heroes, champions and protectors of the realms of Men against the powers of darkness).

Quote from: SHARK on June 19, 2023, 08:42:24 AM
It definitely provides reinforcement of different cultural talents and philosophies, and as a kind of magical tradition, something that is at least somewhat different from a more civilized religious pantheon served by Clerics, and of course Schoos of Arcane Wizardry.

How do you characterize and detail Shamanism in your own campaigns?

I've never had shamans in my D&D campaigns.

In my RuneQuest campaigns like my Vinland game, I made a big deal of shamans. Interacting with spirits was really important in the setting, so a shaman was vital. The authority to deal with spirits was arguably the most important power of shaman characters. There were a few times when a powerful spirit became involved in the adventure, and then the shaman became crucial. Otherwise, the shaman was handy on the battlefield - mostly by granting luck/unluck to other fighters - but not a powerhouse.

The big deals for a shaman was divination and making deals with spirits.

Mine come from Gary's Lejendary Adventure RPG expansion on Shamanism.

There are a couple of different things to look at. First, is the grouping of different powers are done according three different ceremonies or observances of Shamanism--Natural Pathways (Nature Priests), Thwarting Evil (Bane Fighters), and Unseen Forces (Spirit Workers). There is a fourth area for for powers all three traditions share in common.

Secondly, there are different ways Shamans order themselves. The Medicine Order (medicine men) is one type of order. Specific medicine orders may pursue any one, any combination, or all three of the ceremonies. The next most common is the Wycce Order, these are generally urban practitioners of shamanistic magic, and while they may too study multiple ceremonies of shamanism, their first path is always the Observance of Thwarting Evil. Beyond that there are less common types of organizations. As GM I call upon them as I need them. Wood witches  (nature priests & spirit workers) and mystics (spirit workers) are probably most common. And as a nod to the 1E Ranger, there is a lodge of elite foresters who follow the Natural Pathways observance of shamanism. And sometimes you get proper priests following certain nature deities or else follows a particular ethos which have a lot of crossover with some of the Shamanistic traditions. And then, finally, yes, I've got druids, too, which are primarily shamans but also dabble in elemental magic.

In my current game I wanted shamanism to be one of the major forms of magic.  I studied the various types of real world shamanism to get a starting point, but had to make quite a few compromises to get something I thought would play well.

I decided to go with a Ghibli style world of spirits, mainly Spirited Away and Totoro, which I would guess is derived from Shintoism (It doesn't matter enough for my purposes for me to need to go find out).  Every living thing has a spirit, and there are quite a lot of free spirits roaming about.  The free spirits range from things as small and harmless as a mouse to terrifying ones reminiscent of Shiva or Ifrit from Final Fantasy.  There is no way for casters to force spirits to cooperate, but there are spells to attract their attention, communicate with them, strike a binding Bargain, and various other interaction.  Cooperation can be obtained by speaking with a spirit to find out what it wants followed by a Bargain to seal the deal.  Spirit magic can work on the spirit/mind of living beings as well, but in a fairly narrow area, mainly communication.  Things like charm person are specifically excluded from the game.

Shamanistic magic is practiced in all societies and races in the game.  In a few it is very prestigious, with the practitioners given respect and influence.  Common people can sometimes interact with spirits as well, giving offering or asking favors.  This can look religious, but it is not a form of worship - just folks looking for favors from mysterious beings that they know are there.

Necromancy would be an interesting type of shamanism and would fit, but I decided that that would be more work than I want to do right now.  Maybe I'll add it later.

Greetings!

Very interesting, my friends! I think that Shamans and Shamanism certainly provides a campaign with a strong form of gravitas and verisimilitude, in light of the fact that virtually all historical religions began initially within some kind of Shamanistic tradition. Furthermore, most every primitive tribal or barbarian culture embraces some kind of Shamanism. I have always believed that Shamanism should be provided with a much stronger game foundation within a campaign, with a broad selection of traditions, spells, and mystical abilities. It is good, I think, for a campaign to have variety, as we as being historically rooted.

How have your players responded to Shaman options within the campaign?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on June 20, 2023, 04:14:49 AM
How have your players responded to Shaman options within the campaign?

It's mixed.  More shaman interest than I normally get, but not as much as you might expect from it being more prominent.  Plus, the setting is deliberately set at the tail end of long a dark age, with elves capping out at the most long-lived at around 250 years old.  There is oral history, and occasional written records of when shamanistic traditions were not the dominant thing, but no living memory.  Meanwhile, the alternatives are either "new and fresh" or exotic for most of the population.  Shamans are the core, main thing, and everyone else is the exception. 

Net effect is the players that like to go against the grain are not going to play shamans, but the players that want to be part of the established order are more attracted to that.  Most of my powerful healers so far have been shamans, for example.  Don't know if that will remain true during the latest rules revision, since the shaman part became more spread through the rules, even though the setting conceits are the same.  About to find out how much is responding to setting versus how much is responding to rules.

I basically crib the shaman from the Hyperborea game.  Shamans are found in distant, primitive human societies such as jungle islands, steppes, and other wilderness areas and amongst humanoid tribes.  They are interchangeable with Witch Doctors.  So they draw upon arcane and divine magic.  Not too original, but definitely fun to play.  We've had a few over the years, the most memorable being a shamaness modeled after Inuit peoples who was a follower of Ithaqqua.

Is there ANY really good Shaman build/rules? I haven't found one I'm happy with, which has caused one of my games to take a lot more work and time to make.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 20, 2023, 10:17:35 PM
Is there ANY really good Shaman build/rules? I haven't found one I'm happy with, which has caused one of my games to take a lot more work and time to make.

RuneQuest3 has decent shamanic rules as far as published RPGs. However, I'm not a fan of almost all published RPG magic systems as far as evoking any sort of mystic or magical flavor.

I have preliminary notes on the magic for my old Vinland game, but since I only ended up with one magic-using PC, I never developed a variety of paths. I just developed options for the one PC.

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/vinland/magic/

I'd be curious if anything is available for D&D-like systems. There was the rune caster in the AD&D2 "Vikings" supplement, which wasn't shamanic per se, but had some flavor of historical Norse magic. I will see if I can dig that up.

Quote from: jhkim on June 21, 2023, 12:43:28 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 20, 2023, 10:17:35 PM
Is there ANY really good Shaman build/rules? I haven't found one I'm happy with, which has caused one of my games to take a lot more work and time to make.

RuneQuest3 has decent shamanic rules as far as published RPGs. However, I'm not a fan of almost all published RPG magic systems as far as evoking any sort of mystic or magical flavor.

I have preliminary notes on the magic for my old Vinland game, but since I only ended up with one magic-using PC, I never developed a variety of paths. I just developed options for the one PC.

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/vinland/magic/

I'd be curious if anything is available for D&D-like systems. There was the rune caster in the AD&D2 "Vikings" supplement, which wasn't shamanic per se, but had some flavor of historical Norse magic. I will see if I can dig that up.

AFAIK all D&D (and probably every other system) Shaman is just the Magic User with a very thin coat of paint, including the Druids and other casters.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 21, 2023, 09:35:08 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 21, 2023, 12:43:28 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 20, 2023, 10:17:35 PM
Is there ANY really good Shaman build/rules? I haven't found one I'm happy with, which has caused one of my games to take a lot more work and time to make.

RuneQuest3 has decent shamanic rules as far as published RPGs. However, I'm not a fan of almost all published RPG magic systems as far as evoking any sort of mystic or magical flavor.

I have preliminary notes on the magic for my old Vinland game, but since I only ended up with one magic-using PC, I never developed a variety of paths. I just developed options for the one PC.

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/vinland/magic/

I'd be curious if anything is available for D&D-like systems. There was the rune caster in the AD&D2 "Vikings" supplement, which wasn't shamanic per se, but had some flavor of historical Norse magic. I will see if I can dig that up.

AFAIK all D&D (and probably every other system) Shaman is just the Magic User with a very thin coat of paint, including the Druids and other casters.

Mythras has fairly distinct Magical Traditions, with Animism (basically Shamanism) being significantly different from standard spellcasting. But it's BRP and kinda dense text, so I never really went deep into it and never played. Though, Animist abilities deal with interacting with the Spirit World through the Trance and Binding skills. Trance allows animists to see into the spirit world and sense the presence of spirits, etc. While Binding allows them to force spirits to do stuff or bind to them to fetishes, etc.

They go really in-depth into defining different types of spirits, their characteristics and what you can do with them and such. With rules for spirit combat and how to call upon them, negotiate with them, etc. and even how to design spirits. It's probably the most distinct take on shamanism I've seen in a TTRPG.

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 21, 2023, 11:15:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 21, 2023, 09:35:08 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 21, 2023, 12:43:28 PM
RuneQuest3 has decent shamanic rules as far as published RPGs. However, I'm not a fan of almost all published RPG magic systems as far as evoking any sort of mystic or magical flavor.

I have preliminary notes on the magic for my old Vinland game, but since I only ended up with one magic-using PC, I never developed a variety of paths. I just developed options for the one PC.

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/vinland/magic/

I'd be curious if anything is available for D&D-like systems. There was the rune caster in the AD&D2 "Vikings" supplement, which wasn't shamanic per se, but had some flavor of historical Norse magic. I will see if I can dig that up.

AFAIK all D&D (and probably every other system) Shaman is just the Magic User with a very thin coat of paint, including the Druids and other casters.

Mythras has fairly distinct Magical Traditions, with Animism (basically Shamanism) being significantly different from standard spellcasting. But it's BRP and kinda dense text, so I never really went deep into it and never played. Though, Animist abilities deal with interacting with the Spirit World through the Trance and Binding skills. Trance allows animists to see into the spirit world and sense the presence of spirits, etc. While Binding allows them to force spirits to do stuff or bind to them to fetishes, etc.

They go really in-depth into defining different types of spirits, their characteristics and what you can do with them and such. With rules for spirit combat and how to call upon them, negotiate with them, etc. and even how to design spirits. It's probably the most distinct take on shamanism I've seen in a TTRPG.

Cool. I don't know Mythras, but my understanding is that it's RuneQuest 6th ed -- so probably derives its shamanism rules from RuneQuest 3. Yeah, there's a lot about spirits. I never used the RQ3 shamanism rules directly, but I think it was inspirational for using RQ for my alternate-historical games.

There's a chapter on the Spirit World in the MRQ-SRD. I haven't looked in detail how it compares to RQ3.

http://b5quest.pbworks.com/f/MRQ-SRD.pdf

Quote from: jhkim on June 22, 2023, 01:17:31 PM

Cool. I don't know Mythras, but my understanding is that it's RuneQuest 6th ed -- so probably derives its shamanism rules from RuneQuest 3. Yeah, there's a lot about spirits. I never used the RQ3 shamanism rules directly, but I think it was inspirational for using RQ for my alternate-historical games.

There's a chapter on the Spirit World in the MRQ-SRD. I haven't looked in detail how it compares to RQ3.

http://b5quest.pbworks.com/f/MRQ-SRD.pdf

Mythras shamanism rules are the RQ 2/3 rules adapted to the MRQ I/II and Mythras ruleset.  They are meant to represent the same type of activities in the setting.  The biggest changes are probably in the interaction of the shaman with the core rule mechanics and the thresholds set by them.  I'd say that RQ 3 has the potential to be much more brutal than MRQ II, for example.  But it's not like the later versions are a walk through Candy Land.