Well, I'm using my copy of the 40K Rogue Trader RPG to help prop up my monitor... but I've been thinking about the simulation of trading in games.
Even in games that mention trade, it's not existent. Like, zero basic business model at all. I guess there's one in Traveler, but I haven't played it. (I sort of played the shooty version (2300AD), with the Kafers, but that's it. No trading.)
This would include Mercenary companies in MechWarrior/BattleTech (I have the latest Mercenaries book for Total War, but that also has ZERO about actually running a Mercenary company)... Space truckers in the ALIEN RPG... and anything with Free Traders, really.
(As I recall, 40K Rogue Trader isn't actually about trade. It's about going out to stupid places full of chaos/evil, and shooting them in the head.)
Has anyone seen a GOOD system for trading in RPGs? Space accountants = kind of boring, I know, but there's just jack squat.
...
Like, for ALIEN (also, Free League's CORIOLIS), you'd want to consider:
- Debt (how much they owe before the authorities try to impound their space truck, including how much is their regular P&I and at what interval (monthly or annual, most likely))
- Wages/Pay (how much the crew is owed... is it salary? Is it paid per share of the haul/load?)
- Docking and Transit Fees (how much do you pay the local government, and how much does it cost to transit between systems)
- Onloading and Offloading (how much do you pay the longshoremen)
- Tariffs and Customs
- Licensing/Guild Membership
- Gas and routine maintenance
- Unexpected Maintenance
Of course, player characters have sh!t for personal expenses (like: wife, ex-wife, ex-ex-wife, kids, private school (so the kids don't get fkd up by public school), personal taxes, personal lawyers, etc.)... so a lot of this is also just plain irrelevant wankery in some respects.
How would you play a long-term Free Trader/Space Trucker if you had zero for your economic model?
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Also, I was looking up the World's busiest ports.
Of the top 10 ports, how many were in California (where the worst of the Supply Chain issues are)? ZERO.
7/10 of the busiest ports are in China, 0/10 in the United States.
I am not a fan of roleplaying business management, but I would consider adapting MicroGame #20 - Trailblazer to run the underlying space economy and use my system of choice for the actual game.
The core Classic Traveller trading system is pretty basic, but the GURPS Traveller Merchants book has something more substantial.
IRRC SJG also published Isaac Asimov's Star Traders board game in the early nineties.
My Galaxies In Shadow system has some trading rules but they're mainly skill roll results. Personally, space merchants should be hauling biomass and nutrient rich soil and might be restricted from providing free samples in public restrooms because in terraforming and colonization baterial cultures are the real treasures.
Cepheus Deluxe, which is Traveller adjacent, is pretty good stuff for trading and smuggling with rules/tables for brokers, commodities, modifiers for planet (supply), mods for port type (traffic and safety), complications for the dealer, and complications with the cargo. All that is followed up with a nice example of play.
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If I were to run a Trav/CE trader game, Cepheus Deluxe would be my first pick. Second pick might be Space Opera. not that it has a deep trading system, but for the nostalgia factor and it has rules and an adventure about asteroid mining.
Here I thought this was going to be a thread about people trading RPGs with each other and I came here to see what obscure RPG I'd never heard of was being traded for what other obscure RPG I'd never heard of.
Quote from: Mistwell on June 13, 2022, 10:35:33 AM
Here I thought this was going to be a thread about people trading RPGs with each other and I came here to see what obscure RPG I'd never heard of was being traded for what other obscure RPG I'd never heard of.
That's why I clicked it too.
As for trade in the game, my Srar Wars players got a patron and Droid to handle that. They just wanted to be space truckers getting into trouble (Big Trouble in Little Coruscant style).
Maybe I'll pick up Cepheus Deluxe, then. I don't need the full Traveler license.
For me, what I need to construct is the cost structure, which then drives the actual price of goods. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a balance. I've read that the cost and downside risk side is what makes Traveler and Cepheus work. Otherwise, a riskless model means there's the possibility of arbitrage, which shouldn't exist (or else everyone would be infinitely rich).
As far as obscure rpgs go... So much is available as PDF, it would have to be archaic print stuff, which only the dinosaurs would want. I do have old AD&D 2e things like Dark Sun and Birthright, and some niche things like Tribe 8 (and the entire metaplot campaign), but I'm not about to trade those off.
Send me your address, I will mail you an extra copy of Cepheus Deluxe and Classic Traveller.
Orbital Blues works off a Debt and Credit system.
At the end of each session players total up things like 'did the ship get any repairs', 'did you fly between planets/systems', 'did you use a weapon with limited ammo', 'did someone require medical treatment', etc. Each 'yes' incurs a point of Debt on the crew.
Then you look at things like completing jobs, bringing in a bounty, transporting goods, possible illegal operations completed. Depending on the difficulty you accrue X Credits for each one. Roughing up a few local criminals doesn't pay as well as taking out a mob boss. Moving goods from one side of the planet to the other vs moving it between systems pays different.
Once that's done you compare. If your Debts are higher than your Credits you roll on (or choose from) a chart to see what happens. If they are 3+ more than your Credits you roll/pick twice. Results are things like 'take out a Loan from an amenable contact', 'lose Savings', 'gain an unfriendly contact' or 'sell something important'.
If you have more Credits than Debt then you use a different chart where the options are beneficial in nature.
It's a nice way to streamline the whole affair. You still have to worry about money in/money out but it's abstract enough to not bog things down to the exact penny.
An abstracted Debit/Credit system does sound good.
Strict values are kind of weird, aside from the need to have an accounting system.
The Coriolis RPG... You're expected to owe 50% of your starting ship's value, with 5% (fixed, I assume) due on a monthly basis. (you can extrapolate for the Alien rpg, although ship costs are about 10x higher in the Alien universe.) is this principal? What's the interest rate? What's the term on the loan?
A ten year term, with a fixed payment at 5% of the 50% balance each month... That's a high interest rate.
Figuring out the sweet spot isn't impossible, though... But an abstracted method would be easier than wild ass guess methodology.
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 13, 2022, 01:18:41 PM
Send me your address, I will mail you an extra copy of Cepheus Deluxe and Classic Traveller.
If I weren't very paranoid about my identity online (for a variety of reasons, including my day job), i would be more than appreciative of the generosity.
As it is, I'll just be very thankful that generous people still do exist in these troubled times.
Quote from: bromides on June 13, 2022, 08:19:35 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 13, 2022, 01:18:41 PM
Send me your address, I will mail you an extra copy of Cepheus Deluxe and Classic Traveller.
If I weren't very paranoid about my identity online (for a variety of reasons, including my day job), i would be more than appreciative of the generosity.
As it is, I'll just be very thankful that generous people still do exist in these troubled times.
I understand.
The offer will remain open.
I would like to elaborate slightly on the Micro Game Trailblazers in case it may be of value...
Quote
3.0 Game Sequence
A. Product Purchase Phase: Players determine the number of products at a given world on a system-by-system basis. Then, for each world, they bid for those products, determine product purchase and determine whether production of each good will increase or decrease on the next turn. After purchase/production for all goofs at all worlds has been resolved, play proceeds to the next phase.
B. Movement Phase: Players each roll a die: high roller moves first. He may move any or all his fleets. Once his movement is completed, play passes to the player on his right. Once all players have moved, the next phase begins.
C. Exploration Resolution Phase: If any scouts are in squares that do not contain Stars, the players determine whether a Star with exploitable planets is present. If so, a Star Counter is drawn for each such square and the Exploration Tables are referenced to determine whether any newly-discovered systems produce or consume goods. The players enter goofs consumes or produced and their initial production and demand levels on the Star Chart.
D. Product Sales: For each world player sell any goods they wish. After goofs have been sold at a given world players determine whether demand changes for each good. Foods are then sold at another world. Once all goofs which the players wish to sell have been sold and demand fluctuations for all worlds have been determined, players begin the next phase.
E. Maintenance: The players must pay maintenance cost for their Home Offices, Factors, and ships.
F. Game-Turn Record: The players note the end of one Game0-Trun and the begging of the next.
Ashen Stars does have some thoughts on starship maintenance and upgrade, but not purchase and is particular to freelance detectives in space as opposed to space trucking. It does have a nice feature of using Big Creds at starship scale, as opposed to regular creds for personal equipment. I like the space combat mechanics too, but they will get stale if the only space action is hijack and resist hijack.
Holy crap, I nearly forgot about this gem by Robert Conley! It is focused on OSR fantasy merchant trading, but it is also very good!
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Merchant%20Adventures%20Rev%2004.pdf
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 13, 2022, 09:50:02 PM
Quote from: bromides on June 13, 2022, 08:19:35 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 13, 2022, 01:18:41 PM
Send me your address, I will mail you an extra copy of Cepheus Deluxe and Classic Traveller.
If I weren't very paranoid about my identity online (for a variety of reasons, including my day job), i would be more than appreciative of the generosity.
As it is, I'll just be very thankful that generous people still do exist in these troubled times.
I understand.
The offer will remain open.
Just because I like thinking about solutions, what about using your local game store as a mail drop (with their permission)?
Quote from: zircher on June 14, 2022, 11:55:57 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 13, 2022, 09:50:02 PM
Quote from: bromides on June 13, 2022, 08:19:35 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 13, 2022, 01:18:41 PM
Send me your address, I will mail you an extra copy of Cepheus Deluxe and Classic Traveller.
If I weren't very paranoid about my identity online (for a variety of reasons, including my day job), i would be more than appreciative of the generosity.
As it is, I'll just be very thankful that generous people still do exist in these troubled times.
I understand.
The offer will remain open.
Just because I like thinking about solutions, what about using your local game store as a mail drop (with their permission)?
That could work from my end.
This site's @amacris was the "Lead Designer" on ACKS, which has a quite nice trade system tied into the worldbuilding. Settlements have a market class (how much trade goes on) driven by their size, and some supply and demand modifiers (which categories of goods are relatively cheap or expensive there) driven in part randomly and in part by their location / history / status. The math behind it all seems to work.
One of the classes in the Player's Companion is the Venturer, meant to represent an adventuresome trader: thief-like, but charisma based. Exploiting a safe trade route gets PCs nothing but a little gold, but going on a risky caravan with exotic goods to a novel destination can yield really nice XP; the higher the character level, the more risk and greater profit they need to continue to advance. (This is much like Alex's approach to domain rulership, where first-level characters might get decent xp just for keeping a small farming village safe, but at tenth level they'll need to be ruling a duchy or principality to advance further _from rulership as distinct from adventuring_.)
(Aha, the MW Merchant Adventures linked to earlier (https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Merchant%20Adventures%20Rev%2004.pdf) is an open content reworking of the ACKS trade rules, more OD&D than B/X. I've heard rumours there are OSE versions of a lot of the ACKS systems but haven't seen them.)
QuoteThis site's @amacris was the "Lead Designer" on ACKS, which has a quite nice trade system tied into the worldbuilding.
I was just going to post this. I've always wanted him to take a shot at a Traveller type game where he could expand some of his work to scifi gaming. Sometimes his stuff is a bit more detailed than I need, but it always well thought out and easy to sift for great ideas.
I think the Basic D & D Gazetteer "The Republic of Darokin" had some sort of trading system in it. I don't own it so can't comment too much, but a friend owned it and was quite impressed with it, so much so that his character became a merchant and established a trading route. I've read other good comments about it over the years.
space merchants should be hauling biomass and nutrient rich soil and might be restricted from providing free samples in public restrooms because in terraforming and colonization baterial cultures are the real treasures.
All of the RPG trading systems I've seen have been some variation of "buy low, sell high" where the players buy the product and hope to sell it later at a profit. It is easy to implement as all you need is a price list but not very realistic. Imagine in today's world buying something from China and then sailing over there to pick it up.
I was wondering if any games had a more "Space Trucker" system. Where you get paid just for delivery. It would be more complicated because you'd need some method of determining destination and corresponding price point and you'd need a method to generate multiple deliveries for the players to chose. You would probably want some sort of complication system to add something to do along the way.
Has anyone seen anything like this?
Quote from: I on June 16, 2022, 02:05:15 PM
I think the Basic D & D Gazetteer "The Republic of Darokin" had some sort of trading system in it. I don't own it so can't comment too much, but a friend owned it and was quite impressed with it, so much so that his character became a merchant and established a trading route. I've read other good comments about it over the years.
I wasn't too impressed. The system requires a lot of judgment calls from the DM, and the modifiers are wonky. For instance, there's a "broker bonus" that ranges from +1 to +5, and which is applied to everything from 1d6 to 1d100 rolls, without any seeming awareness of the vast disparity in effect. There's also a similar system in the Minrothad Guilds.
The maps and trading routes may be useful, tho:
https://mystara.thorfmaps.com/gaz11-major-trading-routes/
https://mystara.thorfmaps.com/gaz9-major-trading-routes/
Since the ancient times, I've just used the Book 3 Traveller Merchant trading charts in a modified form for any OD&D trading expeditions. But I steer away from those because Conan doesn't give a shit about trading sheep for wood. Conan wants a cargo of gems, magic and piles of gold!