This is not a question as to "would you play it" or not, I don't really care if you do or don't, there's something to be said for both options.
However. If you are presented with this text (which, if I'm being honest, is extremely lazy writing), how would you go about toppling this thing? For context: I will be taking the party to it, either to topple it themselves, or to be a catalyst for an army to topple it. As you can see, even though it's lazy writing, they did take in accordance the possibility of people wanting to attack it.
"The Radiant Citadel's location within the Deep Ethereal makes it difficult to assault. It keeps no standing army, but its council for defense has contingency plans it frequently refines based on intelligence from the Court of Whispers.
The city's primary protection is a powerful ward that can be activated by the Speakers for the Ancestors. When all fifteen are assembled in the council room at the center of the Preserve, by unanimous consent they can erect a diamond sphere that envelops the entire city. The diamond sphere resembles the Auroral Diamond in texture and color and deflects all attacks. Nothing can pass or teleport through it.
If the diamond sphere cannot be erected for any reason, the Radiant Citadel is not helpless. Due to its many mysteries and its magical properties, the city attracts an unusually large number of powerful adventurers and spellcasters. If the citadel is attacked, no fewer than a dozen archmages and twenty mages led by Sholeh rally. If required, Arayat, commander of the Shieldbearers, also mobilizes his Shieldbearer veterans, while the other Speakers for the Ancestors call on the citizenry to bolster the city's defense.
The Auroral Diamond's illumination also provides strong protection. It radiates bright light throughout the city and dim light 1,000 feet beyond the city's borders. This light is akin to sunlight, which many natives of the Ethereal Plane and evil Undead abhor."
I have put the most important pieces in bold. So, they are dependent on this court of whispers. I haven't yet found out what it is, having only skimmed through it, but eventually, a false whisper could lead to a false rumour or lead. If all fifteen of these speakers give consent (of course, agreeing doesn't sound special enough) they can erect this wondershield that blocks everything. So, maybe one of the party could impersonate one of said speakers and not give authorisation to raise that shield. With that shield down, defense of the city comes down to adventurers, spellcasters, shieldbearers and normal citizens. Using undead would not work, because of the light from that diamond thing.
But: how would YOU go about assailing this so-called impregnable fortress?
What's your timetable like? Do you have time to slowly infiltrate and destroy it from within over a few generations?
It should be setting an example.
So real life: three sessions of three hours TOPS
In-game: over the course of a day or so, it should be a surprise attack
Come to think of it, it is conceivable that someone who has read the book could write an "Attack on the RC" module and publish it in the DMs Guild.
If it is good, you could make some money and make fun of WoTC at the same time...
Unfortunately, I don't plan to read this anytime... So anyone feel free to make some money with that!
To respond the OP: this consensus of 15 people is an extreme weakness. It gives you 15 opportunities of simply capturing someone so they can't consent (not to mention blackmail, intimidation, seduction, betrayal, bribery, etc.).
But, nowadays, the best warfare is probably psi-ops: plant dissent within the citadel, denounce these powerful mages as having undeserved magical powers, turn the citizenry against them. Make them believe they can get rich by plundering the powerful. Demand equal representation for the large amount of visitors such citadel must have.
Divide and conquer.
The Speakers are the fortress's weakness. They need to be legitimately elected by the remnants of one of a set of host civilizations, and then confirmed by the soul-agglomeration thingys. And if you are ever missing any...
Quote
Once a Speaker no longer holds office, they lose the powers related to their position. If a Speaker steps down before the end of their term or dies while in office, all basic necessities in the Radiant Citadel gradually cease to function. Unless a suitable replacement for that Speaker is elected and approved by the Dawn Incarnates within thirty days, plants in the Radiant Citadel stop growing, wells run dry, and lighting ceases to function. Similarly, a Speaker cannot leave the Radiant Citadel for more than thirty days before the city's basic utilities begin to fail.
So you identify the most vulnerable of the ethnic ancestor groups. You move in your strike forces and keep them quiet and concealed. Then you murder your target Speaker, and either massacre or suborn their ethnic group. You keep up a targeted campaign of mayhem and make full use of magical nondetection, and once you hit the month point, people will have to start evacuating the Citadel en masse.
You can be really creative with this if you want. Like, if you have a Simulacra or succubus impersonator on hand, you could theoretically impersonate a Speaker for most of the month grace period without anyone knowing what happened. You'll need to manufacture a reason to stay out of the area that the sparkle-ghosts that appoint the Speakers, because they can almost certainly pick out your imposter, but if you can kill off more than one and hide both, you can absolutely set up a lot of paranoia among the other Speakers about who the imposters are, and what ethnicities they need to re-elect from.
Heck, a hilarious wrinkle to add to that scheme is the language listed above. If you assassinate a Speaker, Raise them, and Modify Memory them so they forget that they were temporarily dead...well, they died in office. One month later, the shit starts turning off.
You can also rile up the outsiders against the citadel. Encourage envy - why should the inhabitants of the citadel have all this wealth and sunlight while the rest of the multiverse suffers? Soon you'll have the proverbial barbarians at the gates.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 14, 2022, 10:54:02 AM
You can also rile up the outsiders against the citadel. Encourage envy - why should the inhabitants of the citadel have all this wealth and sunlight while the rest of the multiverse suffers? Soon you'll have the proverbial barbarians at the gates.
That's just it - the Barbarians ARE at the gates. Led by some orc that once was kicked out of the Citadel for doing what orcs do, that is, kill and pillage and underwent a ritual so he can't technically enter again as long as the magical countermeasures are active. He also can't technically kill and pillage in said city. But he wants revenge, so he amassed a horde (technically the orcs, goblins, ogres, hobgoblins and bugbears that revolted against Sintergoblin, a festive holiday in the city of Viroviacum and environs, where goblins are caught by man-catchers and are forced to throw candy towards the children of the city, only to be clubbed to death once they arrive on the market square), ransacked the city of Viroviacum, found a portal there and now led his troops to the outskirts of the Radiant Citadel but he can't enter, someone must disable the magic of the city.
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 14, 2022, 07:40:10 AM
This is not a question as to "would you play it" or not, I don't really care if you do or don't, there's something to be said for both options.
However. If you are presented with this text (which, if I'm being honest, is extremely lazy writing), how would you go about toppling this thing? For context: I will be taking the party to it, either to topple it themselves, or to be a catalyst for an army to topple it. As you can see, even though it's lazy writing, they did take in accordance the possibility of people wanting to attack it.
"The Radiant Citadel's location within the Deep Ethereal makes it difficult to assault. It keeps no standing army, but its council for defense has contingency plans it frequently refines based on intelligence from the Court of Whispers.
The city's primary protection is a powerful ward that can be activated by the Speakers for the Ancestors. When all fifteen are assembled in the council room at the center of the Preserve, by unanimous consent they can erect a diamond sphere that envelops the entire city. The diamond sphere resembles the Auroral Diamond in texture and color and deflects all attacks. Nothing can pass or teleport through it.
If the diamond sphere cannot be erected for any reason, the Radiant Citadel is not helpless. Due to its many mysteries and its magical properties, the city attracts an unusually large number of powerful adventurers and spellcasters. If the citadel is attacked, no fewer than a dozen archmages and twenty mages led by Sholeh rally. If required, Arayat, commander of the Shieldbearers, also mobilizes his Shieldbearer veterans, while the other Speakers for the Ancestors call on the citizenry to bolster the city's defense.
The Auroral Diamond's illumination also provides strong protection. It radiates bright light throughout the city and dim light 1,000 feet beyond the city's borders. This light is akin to sunlight, which many natives of the Ethereal Plane and evil Undead abhor."
I have put the most important pieces in bold. So, they are dependent on this court of whispers. I haven't yet found out what it is, having only skimmed through it, but eventually, a false whisper could lead to a false rumour or lead. If all fifteen of these speakers give consent (of course, agreeing doesn't sound special enough) they can erect this wondershield that blocks everything. So, maybe one of the party could impersonate one of said speakers and not give authorisation to raise that shield. With that shield down, defense of the city comes down to adventurers, spellcasters, shieldbearers and normal citizens. Using undead would not work, because of the light from that diamond thing.
But: how would YOU go about assailing this so-called impregnable fortress?
Take a meson gun spinal mount from
Traveller d20 and move the firing aperture through a
Gate to fire upon the
Radiant Citadel. Meson Guns do 16d20 damage and ignore all armor.
You need all fifteen in concurrence to erect the magic force shield? Wow. As people have noted, you suborn just ONE and you've eliminated their primary defense.
Also, the Ethereal Plane in general is not exactly super difficult to get to or travel in.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 14, 2022, 12:01:36 PM
Take a meson gun spinal mount from Traveller d20 and move the firing aperture through a Gate to fire upon the Radiant Citadel. Meson Guns do 16d20 damage and ignore all armor.
The gate/teleport interdiction would put a crimp on that. Unless you sneak attacked them. Put Dessler at the helm and maneuver behind the citadel for backstab bonus when you fire the Mega Smasher. 8)
heh-heh.
As for toppling the Citadel? Why? If it were a problem location that would be a different story. But theres a bazillion forts and domains in the astral and etherial that are in more need of getting put down.
Now there could be the twist that the Citadel is just another Witchlight Carnival. A pretty face hiding a malevolent core. The problem then becomes not that of toppling the place. But of cutting out the cancer without killing the patient. Preserve the positive. Put to the sword the negative.
As a DM I see the biggest weakness of the Citadel being the need for 100% agreement to erect the barrier. Which reads like a low end elven Mythal. Those things are capable of that and far more. So as long as you can get the drop on them any attacker could do alot of damage before anyone could gather and shut it down. And by then you could have a small army inside the gates.
This one flaw alone makes one question how the place is still standing. Its not like Sigil which which has a god keeping an eye on things 24/7.
Quote from: robertliguori on August 14, 2022, 10:43:34 AM
The Speakers are the fortress's weakness. They need to be legitimately elected by the remnants of one of a set of host civilizations, and then confirmed by the soul-agglomeration thingys. And if you are ever missing any...
Quote
Once a Speaker no longer holds office, they lose the powers related to their position. If a Speaker steps down before the end of their term or dies while in office, all basic necessities in the Radiant Citadel gradually cease to function. Unless a suitable replacement for that Speaker is elected and approved by the Dawn Incarnates within thirty days, plants in the Radiant Citadel stop growing, wells run dry, and lighting ceases to function. Similarly, a Speaker cannot leave the Radiant Citadel for more than thirty days before the city's basic utilities begin to fail.
So you identify the most vulnerable of the ethnic ancestor groups. You move in your strike forces and keep them quiet and concealed. Then you murder your target Speaker, and either massacre or suborn their ethnic group. You keep up a targeted campaign of mayhem and make full use of magical nondetection, and once you hit the month point, people will have to start evacuating the Citadel en masse.
You can be really creative with this if you want. Like, if you have a Simulacra or succubus impersonator on hand, you could theoretically impersonate a Speaker for most of the month grace period without anyone knowing what happened. You'll need to manufacture a reason to stay out of the area that the sparkle-ghosts that appoint the Speakers, because they can almost certainly pick out your imposter, but if you can kill off more than one and hide both, you can absolutely set up a lot of paranoia among the other Speakers about who the imposters are, and what ethnicities they need to re-elect from.
Heck, a hilarious wrinkle to add to that scheme is the language listed above. If you assassinate a Speaker, Raise them, and Modify Memory them so they forget that they were temporarily dead...well, they died in office. One month later, the shit starts turning off.
Yes, let's show them their idea is terrible...by promoting PCs engaging in ethnic cleansing of the "most vulnerable." That sounds worse than playing RC straight.
Greetings!
Genghis Khan would gather together naked citizens from amongst the captured population, and send them against remaining defending troops in human waves, so that they soak up defender's fire and resources--as well as promoting emotional and psychological trauma as the defenders are forced to fire upon their fellow citizens, friends, and family.
As progress in the conquest of the city is made, slaughter every male citizen that stands taller than a wagon wheel. Take every woman as a slave. Plunder them all. Lay waste to the young and old. Stack the dead bodies up in heaps, and form mountains of severed skulls, to bask in the unnatural light.
Ruthlessly plunder the city of all wealth and everything of value. Purposely seek out and destroy every shrine, temple, library, and government building. Take extra efforts to destroy any memory of culture the city had, and turn the entire place into a charnel house of blood, fire, and blackened ruins. Have long rows of thousands of people, crucified at the gates of the city, and the walls stretching outward.
Settle the ruins as desired, to remake the place entirely into something new, or let the fires and rage of conquest utterly devour the city, giving the warriors free reign to slaughter and plunder as they desire. Leave the blackened ruins to stand, adorned with the mountains of skulls, the crucified enemies, and the stacks of bodies, and the utter imagery of devastation and conquest as a testimony to the might of the conquerors, and the pathetic weakness of the defenders.
That is what Genghis Khan would have done.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Omega on August 14, 2022, 12:26:25 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 14, 2022, 12:01:36 PM
Take a meson gun spinal mount from Traveller d20 and move the firing aperture through a Gate to fire upon the Radiant Citadel. Meson Guns do 16d20 damage and ignore all armor.
The gate/teleport interdiction would put a crimp on that. Unless you sneak attacked them. Put Dessler at the helm and maneuver behind the citadel for backstab bonus when you fire the Mega Smasher. 8)
heh-heh.
As for toppling the Citadel? Why? If it were a problem location that would be a different story. But theres a bazillion forts and domains in the astral and etherial that are in more need of getting put down.
Now there could be the twist that the Citadel is just another Witchlight Carnival. A pretty face hiding a malevolent core. The problem then becomes not that of toppling the place. But of cutting out the cancer without killing the patient. Preserve the positive. Put to the sword the negative.
As a DM I see the biggest weakness of the Citadel being the need for 100% agreement to erect the barrier. Which reads like a low end elven Mythal. Those things are capable of that and far more. So as long as you can get the drop on them any attacker could do alot of damage before anyone could gather and shut it down. And by then you could have a small army inside the gates.
This one flaw alone makes one question how the place is still standing. Its not like Sigil which which has a god keeping an eye on things 24/7.
Well, if you want to be realistic about it........ :p
Just sit back and wait for them to eat themselves, as all woke seem to do. Or you could accelerate the process by introducing some succubus' to seduce the male governing population and thus cause mayhem, which is also something that seems to happen a lot to the woke.
Quote from: SHARK on August 14, 2022, 02:19:10 PM
Greetings!
Genghis Khan would gather together naked citizens from amongst the captured population, and send them against remaining defending troops in human waves, so that they soak up defender's fire and resources--as well as promoting emotional and psychological trauma as the defenders are forced to fire upon their fellow citizens, friends, and family.
As progress in the conquest of the city is made, slaughter every male citizen that stands taller than a wagon wheel. Take every woman as a slave. Plunder them all. Lay waste to the young and old. Stack the dead bodies up in heaps, and form mountains of severed skulls, to bask in the unnatural light.
Ruthlessly plunder the city of all wealth and everything of value. Purposely seek out and destroy every shrine, temple, library, and government building. Take extra efforts to destroy any memory of culture the city had, and turn the entire place into a charnel house of blood, fire, and blackened ruins. Have long rows of thousands of people, crucified at the gates of the city, and the walls stretching outward.
Settle the ruins as desired, to remake the place entirely into something new, or let the fires and rage of conquest utterly devour the city, giving the warriors free reign to slaughter and plunder as they desire. Leave the blackened ruins to stand, adorned with the mountains of skulls, the crucified enemies, and the stacks of bodies, and the utter imagery of devastation and conquest as a testimony to the might of the conquerors, and the pathetic weakness of the defenders.
That is what Genghis Khan would have done.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Tsar Bomba!
100,000 level 10 Godbound. The end.
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 14, 2022, 11:02:20 AM(technically the orcs, goblins, ogres, hobgoblins and bugbears that revolted against Sintergoblin, a festive holiday in the city of Viroviacum and environs, where goblins are caught by man-catchers and are forced to throw candy towards the children of the city, only to be clubbed to death once they arrive on the market square)
That's a really fun bit of worldbuilding!
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 14, 2022, 07:40:10 AM
"The Radiant Citadel's location within the Deep Ethereal makes it difficult to assault. It keeps no standing army, but its council for defense has contingency plans it frequently refines based on intelligence from the Court of Whispers.
The city's primary protection is a powerful ward that can be activated by the Speakers for the Ancestors. When all fifteen are assembled in the council room at the center of the Preserve, by unanimous consent they can erect a diamond sphere that envelops the entire city. The diamond sphere resembles the Auroral Diamond in texture and color and deflects all attacks. Nothing can pass or teleport through it.
If the diamond sphere cannot be erected for any reason, the Radiant Citadel is not helpless. Due to its many mysteries and its magical properties, the city attracts an unusually large number of powerful adventurers and spellcasters. If the citadel is attacked, no fewer than a dozen archmages and twenty mages led by Sholeh rally. If required, Arayat, commander of the Shieldbearers, also mobilizes his Shieldbearer veterans, while the other Speakers for the Ancestors call on the citizenry to bolster the city's defense.
The Auroral Diamond's illumination also provides strong protection. It radiates bright light throughout the city and dim light 1,000 feet beyond the city's borders. This light is akin to sunlight, which many natives of the Ethereal Plane and evil Undead abhor."
That whole passage just makes me think of a DM getting frustrated and going "Look, you just can't attack it, OK?!!!?!". If a DM put that in their homebrew game, the players' eyes would roll right out of their heads, but I guess that's the standard for official books now.
They were smart to put it in the Ethereal, instead of Astral plane, or else I would have said just notify the Ilithids or the Githyanki about it, and let them solve the problem for you. Or coax a couple of Astral Dreadnoughts into the area.
I don't know if "archmage" has an official definition in D&D now, but I assume it means "max-level wizard". If they behave the way wizards traditionally do (and the way they probably would if they existed), I feel like you could just wait for them to inevitably turn on each other. With how powerful high-level casters in 5e are, they'll probably nuke the whole place fighting each other.
EDIT: it reminds me of when they started giving the Gods statistics, and then acted surprised when players tried to kill them.
Wake the Tarrasque and lure it through a portal to the Citadel.
Repeat with Tiamat.
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 14, 2022, 06:51:21 PM
.... it reminds me of when they started giving the Gods statistics, and then acted surprised when players tried to kill them.
I remember that.
This is why in my homebrew setting, the gods while they have avatars that can be killed (which can take decades or centuries to reform depending on how powerful they are), gods themselves can't be slain by mortals. Killing an avatar not only puts you on that god's radar but also on their followers as well. Of course, killing all of that god's followers in my world will severely lessen their power but at the end of the day, they are still immortal beings of great power.
Quote from: Krugus on August 14, 2022, 07:10:26 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 14, 2022, 06:51:21 PM
.... it reminds me of when they started giving the Gods statistics, and then acted surprised when players tried to kill them.
I remember that.
This is why in my homebrew setting, the gods while they have avatars that can be killed (which can take decades or centuries to reform depending on how powerful they are), gods themselves can't be slain by mortals. Killing an avatar not only puts you on that god's radar but also on their followers as well. Of course, killing all of that god's followers in my world will severely lessen their power but at the end of the day, they are still immortal beings of great power.
There's a lot you can do with a world where the Gods are mortal. Dark souls is a perfect example, and there's some precedent in real world mythology as well, but its obviously not what the D&D designers intended. I personally really like the idea that a God's power waxes and wanes with the faith of their followers, but that sort of needs a world where the Gods don't directly intercede in human affairs. Divine magic kind of breaks it, since it means the Gods are constantly proving their own existence.
Taking the module at its word (that is, assuming that the happy clappy cooperation the whole thing stands on wouldn't immediately disintigrate), I do think your only real options are either internal sedition, or enlisting outside help. The Ilithids would still be good contenders, though they might not be organized enough. Same with the Neogi. Shoot, even the Drow might get the job done. However, the Radiant Citadel would be a pretty juicy target for either side of the Blood War. Personally, I'd try and enlist the Devils, since they're better organized. But you want a faction that can produce antimagic fields and still be useful fighting inside of them, so that might favor the more physically-oriented Demons.
I feel like the Drow would be dark horse contenders, as well. I don't know how big the Citadel is, but I suspect that if you could get the forces of one or two of the bigger houses of Menzoberranzan there, they could steamroll the place. The Drow are experts at assault after all, and with their wizards and clerics laying down anti-magic fields a few thousand elite Drow soldiers might be able to roll over the defenders in a few hours.
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 14, 2022, 07:55:11 PM
Personally, I'd try and enlist the Devils, since they're better organized.
That was my thought. Buy a nice home in the Radiant Citadel. Sell it to a devil that specializes in contracts. Now he's a property owner and has the right to be there. He starts making deals left and right, not for souls, but for voting rights. Then all you need is patience.
Drow assassins would make sure the first line of defense (the diamond sphere) would fail. Fifteen assassination attempts and only one of them has to succeed. I'm partial to trebuchet with anti-magic runes on the boulders. They can actually fire from outside of the ring of light. :D
Accuse one faction of being racists against another.
Accuse one other faction of being transphobic bigots.
Quote from: Quasquetonian on August 14, 2022, 04:01:03 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 14, 2022, 11:02:20 AM(technically the orcs, goblins, ogres, hobgoblins and bugbears that revolted against Sintergoblin, a festive holiday in the city of Viroviacum and environs, where goblins are caught by man-catchers and are forced to throw candy towards the children of the city, only to be clubbed to death once they arrive on the market square)
That's a really fun bit of worldbuilding!
It of course has parallels with todays feast of Sinterklaas of when I grew up (and still is a thing). I just grew tired of the discussions about it (both sides have good points, but it's been done to death and I think with the current climate it'll die out in a generation or two.
The festive holiday (Sintergoblin) goes like this:
- Men of the city of Viroviacum paint themselves green or whatever that colour of the goblins is, and go about hunting goblins in the forests and marshes surrounding Viroviacum and the Gnome kingdom (ruled by a queen) called Gnome Anne's Land or, in vernacular, Nomansland.
- The more "progressive" elements of the city accuse these men of greenface. The fact these men go and hunt and catch goblins, is not the worst thing in their eyes: THEY PAINT THEIR FACES GREEN!
- The men return with goblins (mostly in carts such as the ones seen in the first Shrek movie) and attach man-catchers to their necks.
- The goblins then have to march, with the men (and women) of the city whipping them, towards the city square, all the while being forced to smile and throw candy and treats to the children
- When they arrive at the city square, they are to partake in the celebration feast of the First Battle of Viroviacum, that is to say, they are herded to a pen and then beaten to death.
- Their corpses are thrown into a bonfire, around which the townpeople dance and sing and make merry.
- This is a festive holiday held on the anniversary of the last invasion of the goblins - they try every so much years. Now, there came orcs, ogres, hobgoblins, bugbears and the like who are smarter than goblins, contacted some of the more "progressive" elements of the city and convinced them to leave the city gates open, they came in, butchered a lot of people and as it is now they are holding the city. And they've found a portal to the radiant citadel, where the leader of the horde is banished from.
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 02:51:56 AM
The festive holiday (Sintergoblin) goes like this: <snip>
Wait, is this real lore from the RC book??
Are we sure that this wasn't written by a non-woke member of the crew (if such a thing would be allowed)? Or are they too narrowminded to see the implications of what they actually wrote?
So... the "progressives" were too triggered by greenface and presumably the poor treatment of goblins (which, let's be honest, is a brutally effective way of culling the goblin numbers and keeping the citizenry alert to another invasion) that they let in orc et al. marauders to take over the town? My gosh, this is precisely the right-wing argument AGAINST open borders. As horrible as this festival sounds on paper, it is a very sensible and practical thing to make sure the goblins aren't put in a position to make another invasion. The tradition of festival is actually the only thing preventing outright genocide, so it's really a "lesser of two evils" circumstance, where doing nothing would surely just be idiotic.
I'm not sure if this is actual "diversity of ideas" to inject some nuance into the book, or an epic failure of self-awareness.
As for toppling the citadel... I agree that the council is the weak link. Kill or abduct just a single member, keep it hidden for as long as possible, and the city will implode under its own weight. If you are constrained to three sessions of 3-4 hours each, remember, you can always abstract a week (or even a month) of game-time into a single roll and a couple sentences of narrative. Then just pickup when things in the citadel start failing and the panic sets in. :)
Quote from: Effete on August 15, 2022, 03:32:24 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 02:51:56 AM
The festive holiday (Sintergoblin) goes like this: <snip>
Wait, is this real lore from the RC book??
Are we sure that this wasn't written by a non-woke member of the crew (if such a thing would be allowed)? Or are they too narrowminded to see the implications of what they actually wrote?
So... the "progressives" were too triggered by greenface and presumably the poor treatment of goblins (which, let's be honest, is a brutally effective way of culling the goblin numbers and keeping the citizenry alert to another invasion) that they let in orc et al. marauders to take over the town? My gosh, this is precisely the right-wing argument AGAINST open borders. As horrible as this festival sounds on paper, it is a very sensible and practical thing to make sure the goblins aren't put in a position to make another invasion. The tradition of festival is actually the only thing preventing outright genocide, so it's really a "lesser of two evils" circumstance, where doing nothing would surely just be idiotic.
I'm not sure if this is actual "diversity of ideas" to inject some nuance into the book, or an epic failure of self-awareness.
As for toppling the citadel... I agree that the council is the weak link. Kill or abduct just a single member, keep it hidden for as long as possible, and the city will implode under its own weight. If you are constrained to three sessions of 3-4 hours each, remember, you can always abstract a week (or even a month) of game-time into a single roll and a couple sentences of narrative. Then just pickup when things in the citadel start failing and the panic sets in. :)
No, the invention is all mine. I'm Belgian and quite sick of the whole "sinterklaas" discussion. Can it be seen as problematic by some? Yes, I get that. However, I think, in today's current social climate, I give it about two generations for it to completely die out. Just let it die, I say.
Open a portal to the Abyss, and walk away.
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 04:07:51 AM
No, the invention is all mine. I'm Belgian and quite sick of the whole "sinterklaas" discussion. Can it be seen as problematic by some? Yes, I get that. However, I think, in today's current social climate, I give it about two generations for it to completely die out. Just let it die, I say.
Oh, okay.
Nevermind then.
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 02:51:56 AM
Quote from: Quasquetonian on August 14, 2022, 04:01:03 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 14, 2022, 11:02:20 AM(technically the orcs, goblins, ogres, hobgoblins and bugbears that revolted against Sintergoblin, a festive holiday in the city of Viroviacum and environs, where goblins are caught by man-catchers and are forced to throw candy towards the children of the city, only to be clubbed to death once they arrive on the market square)
That's a really fun bit of worldbuilding!
It of course has parallels with todays feast of Sinterklaas of when I grew up (and still is a thing). I just grew tired of the discussions about it (both sides have good points, but it's been done to death and I think with the current climate it'll die out in a generation or two.
The festive holiday (Sintergoblin) goes like this:
- Men of the city of Viroviacum paint themselves green or whatever that colour of the goblins is, and go about hunting goblins in the forests and marshes surrounding Viroviacum and the Gnome kingdom (ruled by a queen) called Gnome Anne's Land or, in vernacular, Nomansland.
- The more "progressive" elements of the city accuse these men of greenface. The fact these men go and hunt and catch goblins, is not the worst thing in their eyes: THEY PAINT THEIR FACES GREEN!
- The men return with goblins (mostly in carts such as the ones seen in the first Shrek movie) and attach man-catchers to their necks.
- The goblins then have to march, with the men (and women) of the city whipping them, towards the city square, all the while being forced to smile and throw candy and treats to the children
- When they arrive at the city square, they are to partake in the celebration feast of the First Battle of Viroviacum, that is to say, they are herded to a pen and then beaten to death.
- Their corpses are thrown into a bonfire, around which the townpeople dance and sing and make merry.
- This is a festive holiday held on the anniversary of the last invasion of the goblins - they try every so much years. Now, there came orcs, ogres, hobgoblins, bugbears and the like who are smarter than goblins, contacted some of the more "progressive" elements of the city and convinced them to leave the city gates open, they came in, butchered a lot of people and as it is now they are holding the city. And they've found a portal to the radiant citadel, where the leader of the horde is banished from.
I like it, though! Seems like a perfectly western fantasy holiday!
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 14, 2022, 06:51:21 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 14, 2022, 07:40:10 AM
"The Radiant Citadel's location within the Deep Ethereal makes it difficult to assault. It keeps no standing army, but its council for defense has contingency plans it frequently refines based on intelligence from the Court of Whispers.
The city's primary protection is a powerful ward that can be activated by the Speakers for the Ancestors. When all fifteen are assembled in the council room at the center of the Preserve, by unanimous consent they can erect a diamond sphere that envelops the entire city. The diamond sphere resembles the Auroral Diamond in texture and color and deflects all attacks. Nothing can pass or teleport through it.
If the diamond sphere cannot be erected for any reason, the Radiant Citadel is not helpless. Due to its many mysteries and its magical properties, the city attracts an unusually large number of powerful adventurers and spellcasters. If the citadel is attacked, no fewer than a dozen archmages and twenty mages led by Sholeh rally. If required, Arayat, commander of the Shieldbearers, also mobilizes his Shieldbearer veterans, while the other Speakers for the Ancestors call on the citizenry to bolster the city's defense.
The Auroral Diamond's illumination also provides strong protection. It radiates bright light throughout the city and dim light 1,000 feet beyond the city's borders. This light is akin to sunlight, which many natives of the Ethereal Plane and evil Undead abhor."
That whole passage just makes me think of a DM getting frustrated and going "Look, you just can't attack it, OK?!!!?!". If a DM put that in their homebrew game, the players' eyes would roll right out of their heads, but I guess that's the standard for official books now.
They were smart to put it in the Ethereal, instead of Astral plane, or else I would have said just notify the Ilithids or the Githyanki about it, and let them solve the problem for you. Or coax a couple of Astral Dreadnoughts into the area.
I don't know if "archmage" has an official definition in D&D now, but I assume it means "max-level wizard". If they behave the way wizards traditionally do (and the way they probably would if they existed), I feel like you could just wait for them to inevitably turn on each other. With how powerful high-level casters in 5e are, they'll probably nuke the whole place fighting each other.
EDIT: it reminds me of when they started giving the Gods statistics, and then acted surprised when players tried to kill them.
This is my reaction. Why did they spend such effort to define it's defenses? Not every place has to have a ludicrous series of explanations for how it's virtually impregnable.
Even Sigil merely states The Lady keeps the neutrality. It's still possible to get up to all kinds of shenangians there. You just can't be stupid about it. Done, move on.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 15, 2022, 05:55:20 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 02:51:56 AM
Quote from: Quasquetonian on August 14, 2022, 04:01:03 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 14, 2022, 11:02:20 AM(technically the orcs, goblins, ogres, hobgoblins and bugbears that revolted against Sintergoblin, a festive holiday in the city of Viroviacum and environs, where goblins are caught by man-catchers and are forced to throw candy towards the children of the city, only to be clubbed to death once they arrive on the market square)
That's a really fun bit of worldbuilding!
It of course has parallels with todays feast of Sinterklaas of when I grew up (and still is a thing). I just grew tired of the discussions about it (both sides have good points, but it's been done to death and I think with the current climate it'll die out in a generation or two.
The festive holiday (Sintergoblin) goes like this:
- Men of the city of Viroviacum paint themselves green or whatever that colour of the goblins is, and go about hunting goblins in the forests and marshes surrounding Viroviacum and the Gnome kingdom (ruled by a queen) called Gnome Anne's Land or, in vernacular, Nomansland.
- The more "progressive" elements of the city accuse these men of greenface. The fact these men go and hunt and catch goblins, is not the worst thing in their eyes: THEY PAINT THEIR FACES GREEN!
- The men return with goblins (mostly in carts such as the ones seen in the first Shrek movie) and attach man-catchers to their necks.
- The goblins then have to march, with the men (and women) of the city whipping them, towards the city square, all the while being forced to smile and throw candy and treats to the children
- When they arrive at the city square, they are to partake in the celebration feast of the First Battle of Viroviacum, that is to say, they are herded to a pen and then beaten to death.
- Their corpses are thrown into a bonfire, around which the townpeople dance and sing and make merry.
- This is a festive holiday held on the anniversary of the last invasion of the goblins - they try every so much years. Now, there came orcs, ogres, hobgoblins, bugbears and the like who are smarter than goblins, contacted some of the more "progressive" elements of the city and convinced them to leave the city gates open, they came in, butchered a lot of people and as it is now they are holding the city. And they've found a portal to the radiant citadel, where the leader of the horde is banished from.
I like it, though! Seems like a perfectly western fantasy holiday!
Of course, it's partly a criticism of the holiday as well. There's butter on all of our heads on this one, as the saying goes.
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 09:14:54 AM
Of course, it's partly a criticism of the holiday as well. There's butter on all of our heads on this one, as the saying goes.
Butter on heads?
That must be a Belgian expression, probably similar to saying someone "has egg on their face."
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 14, 2022, 03:14:54 PM
Well, if you want to be realistic about it........ :p
Just sit back and wait for them to eat themselves, as all woke seem to do. Or you could accelerate the process by introducing some succubus' to seduce the male governing population and thus cause mayhem, which is also something that seems to happen a lot to the woke.
As presented I think the big problem is the temptation to abuse the power they have. They are one step away from Thought Police and mind control. Or going Murder Pacifist.
Top Ballista could have had the same problem. But how it is governed and the situation keeps the flying citadel from collapsing. And even the normally evil races like Nagpa and Gremlins are behaving for various reasons. And because everyone else would quickly band together and at the very least kick them out, or worse case scenario - put them to the sword. That and the gnomes are probably the only race able to safely dick around with Blackmoor magitech and not get atomized. The pieces mesh with the quirky ideals of the place.
Radiant Citadel could have been that too. A fun place to visit that is not a death trap waiting to happen. Or in the process of happening. Or somehow oppressive under the surface.
Then again Radiant Citadel would be a perfect cantidate for incarceration in my old "Demi-plane of Joy" where these sorts of broken utopias get pulled into. The counterbalance to Ravenloft.
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 02:51:56 AM
It of course has parallels with todays feast of Sinterklaas of when I grew up (and still is a thing). I just grew tired of the discussions about it (both sides have good points, but it's been done to death and I think with the current climate it'll die out in a generation or two.
The festive holiday (Sintergoblin) goes like this:
- Men of the city of Viroviacum paint themselves green or whatever that colour of the goblins is, and go about hunting goblins in the forests and marshes surrounding Viroviacum and the Gnome kingdom (ruled by a queen) called Gnome Anne's Land or, in vernacular, Nomansland.
- The more "progressive" elements of the city accuse these men of greenface. The fact these men go and hunt and catch goblins, is not the worst thing in their eyes: THEY PAINT THEIR FACES GREEN!
- The men return with goblins (mostly in carts such as the ones seen in the first Shrek movie) and attach man-catchers to their necks.
- The goblins then have to march, with the men (and women) of the city whipping them, towards the city square, all the while being forced to smile and throw candy and treats to the children
- When they arrive at the city square, they are to partake in the celebration feast of the First Battle of Viroviacum, that is to say, they are herded to a pen and then beaten to death.
- Their corpses are thrown into a bonfire, around which the townpeople dance and sing and make merry.
- This is a festive holiday held on the anniversary of the last invasion of the goblins - they try every so much years. Now, there came orcs, ogres, hobgoblins, bugbears and the like who are smarter than goblins, contacted some of the more "progressive" elements of the city and convinced them to leave the city gates open, they came in, butchered a lot of people and as it is now they are holding the city. And they've found a portal to the radiant citadel, where the leader of the horde is banished from.
Thanks for the extra detail. Given the name, I figured it was a riff on Sinterklaas. The image of terrified goblins being led through the streets and forced to throw candy to happy children was really vivid. Pretty fun.
Quote from: Effete on August 15, 2022, 10:28:17 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 09:14:54 AM
Of course, it's partly a criticism of the holiday as well. There's butter on all of our heads on this one, as the saying goes.
Butter on heads?
That must be a Belgian expression, probably similar to saying someone "has egg on their face."
I used to hear a variation on that many a decade ago. Butterhead. If the terms are the same then its something like. "Pot calling the Kettle Black" and similar. Basically to make a fool of yourself through accusation. Though more often just to make a fool of yourself.
Came across this in listing of Dutch Proverbs. So maybe the Pot-Kettle analogy is right?
QuoteProverb 112 "boter op z'n hoofd hebben"
Literally: to have butter on his head. The proverb is used to someone who is criticising others, while he himself could be blamed as well. The original proverb, a few centuries ago, was that one who had butter on his head should stay out of the sun. Because, the butter would melt.
That sure describes some of the writers for the book. But I believe some of the others are honest folk who have been roped into this by WOTC lies. Happens all too often.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 15, 2022, 07:45:49 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 14, 2022, 06:51:21 PM
That whole passage just makes me think of a DM getting frustrated and going "Look, you just can't attack it, OK?!!!?!". If a DM put that in their homebrew game, the players' eyes would roll right out of their heads, but I guess that's the standard for official books now.
EDIT: it reminds me of when they started giving the Gods statistics, and then acted surprised when players tried to kill them.
This is my reaction. Why did they spend such effort to define it's defenses? Not every place has to have a ludicrous series of explanations for how it's virtually impregnable.
Even Sigil merely states The Lady keeps the neutrality. It's still possible to get up to all kinds of shenangians there. You just can't be stupid about it. Done, move on.
I never got the impression that Zeb Cook regarded Sigil as some kind of aspirational utopia. You can just picture the writers' meeting for Radiant Citadel where some designer said "You know that bad, wicked, wrongthinking, cryptofascist players are going to want to destroy our wonderful socialist ideal, so we have to write into the module that its impossible to do that". Of course, the fact that they think writing something into the module makes it player-proof just shows that they don't understand how the game works.
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 15, 2022, 11:02:34 AM
I never got the impression that Zeb Cook regarded Sigil as some kind of aspirational utopia. You can just picture the writers' meeting for Radiant Citadel where some designer said "You know that bad, wicked, wrongthinking, cryptofascist players are going to want to destroy our wonderful socialist ideal, so we have to write into the module that its impossible to do that". Of course, the fact that they think writing something into the module makes it player-proof just shows that they don't understand how the game works.
You credit them with too much intelligence. What more likely happened is they just cribbed noted from FR's Mythals which as noted above can to far more than just put up a barrier like that.
Spheres of Annihilation
And if you're in the Forgotten Realms setting, call Entropy there. She/It hates mages and magic-users and would gladly obliterate everything and everyone there.
Quote from: Omega on August 15, 2022, 10:54:32 AM
Quote from: Effete on August 15, 2022, 10:28:17 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 09:14:54 AM
Of course, it's partly a criticism of the holiday as well. There's butter on all of our heads on this one, as the saying goes.
Butter on heads?
That must be a Belgian expression, probably similar to saying someone "has egg on their face."
I used to hear a variation on that many a decade ago. Butterhead. If the terms are the same then its something like. "Pot calling the Kettle Black" and similar. Basically to make a fool of yourself through accusation. Though more often just to make a fool of yourself.
Came across this in listing of Dutch Proverbs. So maybe the Pot-Kettle analogy is right?
QuoteProverb 112 "boter op z'n hoofd hebben"
Literally: to have butter on his head. The proverb is used to someone who is criticising others, while he himself could be blamed as well. The original proverb, a few centuries ago, was that one who had butter on his head should stay out of the sun. Because, the butter would melt.
That sure describes some of the writers for the book. But I believe some of the others are honest folk who have been roped into this by WOTC lies. Happens all too often.
To have butter on one's head means being culpable of the same thing someone either fights or accuses other people of. Boter op z'n hoofd hebben.