Comic Book Resources published two articles on what they consider to be the top ten super-hero role-playing games of all time. Part one here (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=47270), and part two here (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=47407).
Here's the shorthand:
10. Villains & Vigilantes
9. Aberrant
8. Wild Talents
7. Marvel Heroic Roleplaying
6. Mutants & Masterminds
5. Champions
4. DC Heroes
3. Underground
2. Necessary Evil
1. Marvel Super Heroes
Since neither BASH! nor ICONS made the list, I call shenanigans.
Any list that doesn't have V&V, Heroes Unlimited, and Champions in the top three spots in some order or another is full of shit.
In particular this guy condems V&V for requiring a table reference to make an attack while putting Marvel Super Heroes in the number one spot.
I like MHRPG, but it should be lower on the list than at least V&V and possibly Aberrant (I don't know Wild Talents) by any reasonable criteria for "Top Ten"-ness.
The only games from that list I've played are MSH, Underground, and Mutants & Masterminds, and if given the choice I'd pick them in that order, every time - MSH is brilliant.
Haven't had a chance to play Marvel Heroic yet though.
Hmmm D&D 4E didn't make the list. Even in its own niche it got snubbed.
That's a tough one. I like ICONS, really enjoyed Truth & Justice love Marvel FASERIP (still king IMO), and games like Supers! and BASH have their finer points. But then you have a game like Triumphant! SHRPG, from Beyond Belief Games, which I just reviewed and has potential to be near the very top of the list (needs more playing first).
I wouldn't hazard a Top 10, but my Top 5 would likely be:
#1 FASERIP
#2-5 (in no particular order): ICONS, Truth & Justice, BASH, and either Supers! or Triumphant! rounding things out.
Meh. My list would be, in approximate order (ask me tomorrow and I'll give you a different one):
1) DC Heroes
2) Mutants & Masterminds
3) Champions/HERO
4) Marvel FASERIP
5) Icons
I can see the argument for V&V. In fact, had it been a smidgen better supported, I might say I like it better than Marvel FASERIP. But Heroes Unlimited? It had its cute bits but lacked a level of playability.
#1 - FASERIP
#2 - DC Heroes
#3 - Mutants and Masterminds 3e
#4 - Champions/Hero
5-10 - doesn't really matter to me.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;683465Hmmm D&D 4E didn't make the list. Even in its own niche it got snubbed.
It really was universally loathed. RIP.
Sadly, I've never read nor played Marvel Super Heroes, so I'll leave that out of my list. That said, for me:
1. DC Heroes / Blood of Heroes
2. BASH!
3. Mutants & Masterminds / DC Adventures
4. ICONS
5. Villains & Vigilantes
Villains & Vigilantes will always have a place in my heart since I got a lot of good games out of that one in High School. I admit that the system hasn't withstood the test of time IMHO though.
Quote from: Celestial;683582Sadly, I've never read nor played Marvel Super Heroes...
Educate!
http://classicmarvelforever.com/cms/basic-game-and-modules.html (http://classicmarvelforever.com/cms/basic-game-and-modules.html)
http://classicmarvelforever.com/cms/advanced-game-and-modules.html (http://classicmarvelforever.com/cms/advanced-game-and-modules.html)
Quote from: Exploderwizard;683465Hmmm D&D 4E didn't make the list. Even in its own niche it got snubbed.
All kidding aside, I think 4E dnd could make a good supers game. They almost did that with 4E Gamma World. In fact, the 4E gamma world IS a supers game, just not with capes.
Quote from: Bill;683627All kidding aside, I think 4E dnd could make a good supers game. They almost did that with 4E Gamma World. In fact, the 4E gamma world IS a supers game, just not with capes.
Could? 4E D&D was a supers game in the same way that Star Wars was a martial arts movie.
1. Marvel Superheroes (FASERIP)
2. DC Heroes
3. Champions
4. Mutants & Masterminds
5. Everything else ( most of which is just a riff on 1,2, and 3)
Quote from: Bill;683627All kidding aside, I think 4E dnd could make a good supers game. They almost did that with 4E Gamma World. In fact, the 4E gamma world IS a supers game, just not with capes.
I'd disagree. There is a lot more to the superhero genre than superpowers.
Superhero: With great power comes great responsibility.
GW Character: With great power comes bigger loot!
As for the OP, if it were down to just about personal preference, ICONS would top the list for me. It just hits all the right notes. But even I appreciate it does not have the influence and stature in the hobby as a whole as Champions or Mutant & Masterminds
Quote from: Soylent Green;683715I'd disagree. There is a lot more to the superhero genre than superpowers.
Superhero: With great power comes great responsibility ...
If you mean that there's a lot more to the "Golden Age," four-color era than superpowers, I'd agree with you.
But you can't be ignorant of the fact that from Marvel 1960s to Dark Knight and on forward, the landscape got a lot broader.
Given that supers games still aren't as big as fantasy, I'm not sure there's a point in listing the 10 "best" when there's not much more than 10 to begin with. ;)
JG
Quote from: Ravenswing;683742If you mean that there's a lot more to the "Golden Age," four-color era than superpowers, I'd agree with you.
But you can't be ignorant of the fact that from Marvel 1960s to Dark Knight and on forward, the landscape got a lot broader.
Okay, Deadpool could be a Gamma World character as an insane mutant mercenary. And I'm sure there a bunch of other edge characters that fit the profile because as you say it is a broad genre. But still, these are not the most representative superheroes. The majority of superheroes are out trying to make things better, even when they go about it the wrong way or end just making things worse.
Or don't you don't think that the Dark Knight isn't in his own twisted way more of "with great power comes great responsibility" character than a "kill monsters and take their stuff" character?
The "take their stuff" real serves to underline the prfoundly different attitude of GW and a superhero game. Superheroes don't loot corpse as a rule. In 4eGW loot is so central they even collectable cards out for them.
Quote from: James Gillen;683754Given that supers games still aren't as big as fantasy, I'm not sure there's a point in listing the 10 "best" when there's not much more than 10 to begin with. ;)
JG
That's true. It's inexplicable, unjustifiable, and tragic, but it's true.
Stupid elves.
Quote from: James Gillen;683754Given that supers games still aren't as big as fantasy, I'm not sure there's a point in listing the 10 "best" when there's not much more than 10 to begin with. ;)
JG
I can list over 60...Might be able to manage 100.
That list reads like someone has a good working knowledge of using Wikipedia.
I know, Superhero 2044 doesn't even get a mention? Wank.
But online top ten lists are always wank. They are utterly meaningless, the only service they might provide is alerting someone to a game/film/book they hadn't heard of, but "top ten" generally means "10 everyone talks about most frequently".
Quote from: Lynn;683768That list reads like someone has a good working knowledge of using Wikipedia.
I'd say
Underground was enough of a wild card inclusion to suggest the author actually does know the games they're writing about.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;683465Hmmm D&D 4E didn't make the list. Even in its own niche it got snubbed.
Quote from: jeff37923;683556It really was universally loathed. RIP.
Really, guys? Really?
Quote from: Bill;683627All kidding aside, I think 4E dnd could make a good supers game. They almost did that with 4E Gamma World. In fact, the 4E gamma world IS a supers game, just not with capes.
It would, actually. I very nearly used it for an X-Men campaign at one point, but it fell through due to school commitments.
Quote from: LibraryLass;683871Really, guys? Really?
4e was a better Superhero emulator (both mechanically and genre) than it ever was at D&D...
Quote from: LibraryLass;683871It would, actually. I very nearly used it for an X-Men campaign at one point, but it fell through due to school commitments.
My point exactly...
Quote from: Celestial;683443Here's the shorthand:
10. Villains & Vigilantes
9. Aberrant
8. Wild Talents
7. Marvel Heroic Roleplaying
6. Mutants & Masterminds
5. Champions
4. DC Heroes
3. Underground
2. Necessary Evil
1. Marvel Super Heroes
Since neither BASH! nor ICONS made the list, I call shenanigans.
I'm sorry, but Marvel Heroic has no place on this list... Cortex in all its forms is the biggest pile of donkey shit to come out of the gaming industry... And it lasted, what? a year?! Hell, both Marvel Universe and Marvel Saga lasted longer! And both were better games than fucking Marvel Heroic...
God... I fucking hate Cortex....
Quote from: YourSwordisMine;6838924e was a better Superhero emulator (both mechanically and genre) than it ever was at D&D...
My point exactly...
It's (arguably) better-suited for it, but that's not what it
is.
Hey, I'm just hoping Tim's "Heart & Souls 2E" makes the list, next year! ;)
I have played Basic, 1E, 2E, 3X, and 4E. Extensively. I am old :)
All are dnd, and I play them the same way.
My favorite is 1E, perhaps due to being the 'first' rpg I played.
3X has started to make me ill.
But I have miraculously played and run 4E dnd games that feel like dnd.
I must have superpowers!
Quote from: LibraryLass;683931It's (arguably) better-suited for it, but that's not what it is.
All characters are special snowflakes that have powers.
The PCs are assumed to be heroes.
Neither of those are true for classic D&D.
So if 4E isn't supers with fantasy lipstick then what is it, because it certainly isn't D&D.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;684038All characters are special snowflakes that have powers.
The PCs are assumed to be heroes.
Neither of those are true for classic D&D.
So if 4E isn't supers with fantasy lipstick then what is it, because it certainly isn't D&D.
The game where two of the first three classes ever introduced are different kinds of magician doesn't include characters with powers?
The fantasy lipstick, I think, is another crucial distinction. Supers, to me, implies (relatively) modern. As far as I'm concerned something can't really be D&D-esque fantasy (that's not to say it can't be fantasy at all-- Wonder Woman, Thor, and Doctor Strange are all obvious evidence of that) and supers at the same time. And however different 4e is it's certainly D&Desque, in the sense that there are elves and dragons and beholders and stuff like that.
Quote from: LibraryLass;684041The game where two of the first three classes ever introduced are different kinds of magician doesn't include characters with powers?
The cleric
does have deity granted powers. The magic user has spells gained through study and understanding of magical formulae.
Quote from: LibraryLass;684041The fantasy lipstick, I think, is another crucial distinction. Supers, to me, implies (relatively) modern. As far as I'm concerned something can't really be D&D-esque fantasy (that's not to say it can't be fantasy at all-- Wonder Woman, Thor, and Doctor Strange are all obvious evidence of that) and supers at the same time. And however different 4e is it's certainly D&Desque, in the sense that there are elves and dragons and beholders and stuff like that.
Modern/ fantasy/etc. are just trappings. If Spiderman joined up with a 4E D&D party he would fit right in. A heroic do-gooder in costume joining others to fight evil. He wouldn't be any less a superhero because he wasn't in the modern world.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;684038All characters are special snowflakes that have powers.
The PCs are assumed to be heroes.
Neither of those are true for classic D&D.
So if 4E isn't supers with fantasy lipstick then what is it, because it certainly isn't D&D.
Does Classic dnd include 1E?
I could agree with you IF you were refering to a dm enforced low magic, gritty dnd setting with no spellcasters.
But I have seen a ton of 1E dnd games with super powered spell casters, fighters with flying carpets, helms of brillance, and intelligent magic swords swooping around :)
High fantasy IS supers.
As for assumed to be heroes, 4E reccomends 'good heroic' characters. But the 4e books do address evil characters; it's just not encouraged.
I feel much of this topic is just 'How the gm manages the setting'
Quote from: LibraryLass;684041And however different 4e is it's certainly D&Desque, in the sense that there are elves and dragons and beholders and stuff like that.
Ditto, I think folks are reaching.
4e is certainly in the same boat as D&D, or at least a nearby boat.
Kind of like (wait for it.....) (steady....) WoW is D&Desque ;) .
Quote from: Piestrio;684050Ditto, I think folks are reaching.
4e is certainly in the same boat as D&D, or at least a nearby boat.
Kind of like (wait for it.....) (steady....) WoW is D&Desque ;) .
Oh, surely. WoW is D&Desque as fuck. So's Elder Scrolls, Lodoss War, Slayers, lots of fun things.
Quote from: LibraryLass;684055Oh, surely. WoW is D&Desque as fuck. So's Elder Scrolls, Lodoss War, Slayers, lots of fun things.
When I saw Lodoss War it screamed 'I am dnd! look at me!'
Of all time? Why didn't they just call it a list of the superhero RPGs. Let me know when they do a top 10 of 100 superhero RPGs list.
I'm always amused by lists like these. Mostly, because when they're right based on the number of people who talk about, still play, or recall fondly a game that isn't this week's darling, or a specific fan's favorite, that means the whole list is invalid.
I have seen two different versions of a list like these in the past two weeks.
I find it interesting, that neither one really matches the other.
My lists of "Best of all Time" would include just my favorites, but games I don't much like, yet still would be considered "Best" by me, for a certain kind of gamers.
1. There's more then ten Superhero games? I keed, I keed.
2. MHR is Roleplaying game now?
3. Seriously, no ICONS is weaksauce.
Quote from: Silverlion;684105I'm always amused by lists like these. Mostly, because when they're right based on the number of people who talk about, still play, or recall fondly a game that isn't this week's darling, or a specific fan's favorite, that means the whole list is invalid.
I have seen two different versions of a list like these in the past two weeks.
I find it interesting, that neither one really matches the other.
My lists of "Best of all Time" would include just my favorites, but games I don't much like, yet still would be considered "Best" by me, for a certain kind of gamers.
"Ten things I like"
1. Cats
2. Watermelon
3. Silly hats
4. Macs
5. popping my back.
6. Lifting heavy things.
7. Movies, but only the good ones.
8. Books, some crappy ones.
9. having the TV on when I'm not really paying attention.
10. Cooking.
THIS LIST IS DEFINITIVE AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU'RE HITLER.
Quote from: Piestrio;684118"Ten things I like"
1. Cats
2. Watermelon
3. Silly hats
4. Macs
5. popping my back.
6. Lifting heavy things.
7. Movies, but only the good ones.
8. Books, some crappy ones.
9. having the TV on when I'm not really paying attention.
10. Cooking.
THIS LIST IS DEFINITIVE AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU'RE HITLER.
Nah, you did it wrong, "things I like" is personal so we can't disagree with you without suggesting you don't actually like cats. It needs to be a "best of all time" list.
Grymbok's Top 4 Best Things In Life (Of All Time)
1. Crushing my enemies
2. Seeing them driven before me
3. The lamentation of the women (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBGOQ7SsJrw&feature=player_detailpage#t=82)
4. Things which are free
Quote from: CRKrueger;6841081. There's more then ten Superhero games? I keed, I keed.
2. MHR is Roleplaying game now?
3. Seriously, no ICONS is weaksauce.
FASERIP is already on the list. Icons is just a copy with bad art, less support, and the dice mechanic swapped. Its had no discernable influence on the hobby, and really doesn't belong on a 'top ten list unless its jut 'top 10 one person likes. It'd be like insisting Blood of Heroes belongs on the list ( DC Heroes with generic, less supported system and bad art).
Never heard of Underground. I can't believe any list that includes Marvel Heroic Roleplaying.
Champions should be #1, and it's not even my favorite supers game. It was the game for almost two decades, though.
Underground was a satire game that was moderately clever at the time because of the Image virus of the 90s superhero industry ( sent this MMMS boy to Vertigo), and still holds amusement for anyone who was into comics at the time. Otherwise it was a typical 90s system that was functional if not pretty.
So, overall, its the Robocop of rpgs.
I always thought of Underground as the MARSHALL LAW Roleplaying Game. ;)
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;684702I always thought of Underground as the MARSHALL LAW Roleplaying Game. ;)
JG
Same thing basically. Marshall Law by way of Geoff Darrow
ICONS is number 1. Everything else is distantly behind.
RPGPundit
By the criterion of notability, I would include:
Superhero 2044 -- so dull, it inspired people to try to do better
(Supergame = FAIL, and too little known to make the list)
Villains & Vigilantes -- 'the' game in its time
Champions -- took the throne from V&V, pioneered comprehensive "points system"
Marvel Super Heroes -- from TSR, major license, easy intro, somewhat trend-setting design, popular enough to warrant a retro-clone
DC Heroes -- another major license, design admired by (among others) MSH designer Jeff Grubb
Golden Heroes -- the Games Workshop entry
Superworld -- the Chaosium entry
Heroes Unlimited -- the Palladium entry
Aberrant -- the White Wolf entry
Mutants & Masterminds -- leading D20 System entry, apparently very popular (except in my neighborhood)
Say, that's 10 there, eh?
DC Heroes is one of my favourites, taking the system pioneered in mSH, and extrapolating from it a much more measured, defined approach that also codified some of the 'emergent properties' of the earlier system. And then going with a much needed (but not overly complex or high buy-in) point based chargen. I really admire that game but...
2 f-ing charts to resolve Every Roll?? I play war games that resolve actions faster. Plus, there were a bit too many disassociative mechanics atop that.
Still think it deserved better than Blood of Heroes. But then MSH deserved better than Icons.
Quote from: Novastar;683935Hey, I'm just hoping Tim's "Heart & Souls 2E" makes the list, next year! ;)
And it's pathetic that Hearts and Souls iE didn't make this list! 2E should top it, if the world were just!