Quote from: RPGPunditBut wait, is D&D meant to cover all of D20?? Because to me, D&D and D20 are two different game systems; and if you separate them, then I'm willing to bet you easily have the number 1 and number 2 spots there, pushing WoD down to number 3...

Doubtful. An oft-repeated observation, as accurate as any you'll get, is "D&D has 50% of the market, WoD has 25% -- everybody else shares the rest."

And yes, that's D&D, not d20.

One thing that I noticed about the Amazon rankings is that the core book  was often not the current high seller.  To get a better perspective, try checking a few of the most recent releases.

Here are the September 2006 numbers...

1. Dungeons & Dragons
2. World of Darkness
3. Rifts
4. Shadowrun
5. Hero System 5th Edition
6. Castles & Crusades
7. Mutants & Masterminds
8. Serenity
9. GURPS
10.Dungeon Crawl Classics
11.Warhammer FRP
12.Sword and Sorcery
13.d20 Modern
14.All Flesh Must Be Eaten
15.Star Wars d20
16.Exalted
17.Conan
18.Ptolus
19.Dragonlance
20.Runequest

Market Share

Wizards of the Coast 59.79%
White Wolf 14.77%
Palladium 3.33%
Fantasy Productions 3.12%
Hero 2.81%
Troll Lord 2.82%
MWP 2.16%
Goodman Games 1.96%
Green Ronin 1.88%
Other 7.29%

Quote from: StuartHere are the September 2006 numbers...

From what?

Quote from: StuartHere are the September 2006 numbers...

From where?

But where ever they're from, it's good to see my mates working at C&C over at TLG are doing so well!  

Pundit:

I don't seperate "D20" from D&D for this purpose because 70% of "D20" products are aimed at D&D use--the others are a smattering of OGL products and support for them--plus you have to consider that "D20" is not single company behind it (despite WOTC top ranking while D&D is..)

Those numbers are from Comics & Games Retailer.

Quote from: SilverlionPundit:

I don't seperate "D20" from D&D for this purpose because 70% of "D20" products are aimed at D&D use--the others are a smattering of OGL products and support for them--plus you have to consider that "D20" is not single company behind it (despite WOTC top ranking while D&D is..)

Umm... ok....

So you're saying that Mutants & Masterminds is really just D&D; or that it should be lumped in as "the same as D&D" when it comes to sales.  Do people buying M&M 2e think that they're buying a D&D product? ditto with D20 modern? Conan? True20? Star Wars?

They're all just D&D?

RPGPundit

Intersting other numbers would be for someone to break all of this down by how many are using d20 as the "core" rule set.  I mean, I know D&D is not d20, but it uses d20.  So does d20 Modern and such.  So how many on that list use d20?  How much market share doe d20 have, starting with all D&D, D20 Modern, etc. products, and then including all of the products put out by all of the other market share vendors mentioned? How has d20 permeated the market?

I think you'd find that a huge portion of the market (mostly due to D&D influence) is based on d20.  What does that tell us about the industry?

Oh...and thanks for the number Stuart!

Quote from: RPGPunditUmm... ok....

So you're saying that Mutants & Masterminds is really just D&D; or that it should be lumped in as "the same as D&D" when it comes to sales.  Do people buying M&M 2e think that they're buying a D&D product? ditto with D20 modern? Conan? True20? Star Wars?

They're all just D&D?

RPGPundit

No. Not at all. You've misread what I said. I was ONLY talking about D&D in my list (D&D products produced by WOTC).


You added D20 as a seperate category which is not valid--because you can only count a game line on its own. You can't lump Star Wars sales and M&M sales together for "top spots" because they aren't produced by the same company nor are they fully non-conversion required compatable, even if they were you can really only count a single product line for "top sales" M&M alone, D&D alone, True20 alone. Because your talking "top game sales" not top "category" sales.





Never mind that per the license for example M&M is NOT D20 but OGL.


And if "D20" is somehow a seperate "game" explain to me how True20 and Lone Wolf and Babylon 5, all get lumped together but D&D doesn't get lumped in with them...

Quote from: RPGPunditUmm... ok....

So you're saying that Mutants & Masterminds is really just D&D; or that it should be lumped in as "the same as D&D" when it comes to sales.  Do people buying M&M 2e think that they're buying a D&D product? ditto with D20 modern? Conan? True20? Star Wars?

They're all just D&D?

RPGPundit

Nope, not what he's saying.  Paul Chapman up thread spoke truth.  The top companies are WotC with 50% of the market share, White Wolf with 25% of the market share, and everyone else sharing the remainder.

That means that anyone who is not WotC who uses the d20 system, or OGL, or something like M&M which is really different, or GURPS, or whatever, shares the remaining 25%.

That's a ballpark, but it's really close to the truth, as those numbers above say.

Quote from: SilverlionNo. Not at all. You've misread what I said. I was ONLY talking about D&D in my list (D&D products produced by WOTC).


You added D20 as a seperate category which is not valid--because you can only count a game line on its own. You can't lump Star Wars sales and M&M sales together for "top spots" because they aren't produced by the same company nor are they fully non-conversion required compatable, even if they were you can really only count a single product line for "top sales" M&M alone, D&D alone, True20 alone. Because your talking "top game sales" not top "category" sales.  

I agree.

QuoteNever mind that per the license for example M&M is NOT D20 but OGL.

On a practical level there's zero difference.

QuoteAnd if "D20" is somehow a seperate "game" explain to me how True20 and Lone Wolf and Babylon 5, all get lumped together but D&D doesn't get lumped in with them...

They shouldn't, its true. But then, neither should WoD.  You should have to count Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage as three seperate games, in which case I have a feeling some of them would fall well behind some of the individual D20 games.

RPGPundit

And WW has less than 20% of the market share. But we're talking about games, not companies here.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYou should have to count Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage as three seperate games, in which case I have a feeling some of them would fall well behind some of the individual D20 games.

That might have been the case in the old days, but now all three of those are just supplement lines to World of Darkness. They aren't even playable without the core book.

I'm kind of surprised that there isn't some sort of accounting of industry sales, some sort of compilation of the data.