I'm curious to know what systems people think are strongest as pure combat games. Before everyone starts furiously typing the names of whatever 5 games they played most recently, I suggest the following grounds for judgement:
- It has to be so fun to play, purely as a combat game, that you'd be happy to just spend the evening resolving duels, gladiator fights, rumbles, etc.
- A typical one-on-one fight should be resolvable in 10 minutes or so
- A typical group skirmish should be resolvable in half an hour or less, pretty much no matter what
- If some nerd wants to cast a spell, that should be possible and work well with the rest of the rules
- Monsters and such
My personal vote is The Fantasy Trip. But I'm such a long-time partisan of that one I'd say my vote hardly counts.
Harnmaster, The Fantasy Trip, and GURPS in that order.
Quote from: estar;936839Harnmaster, The Fantasy Trip, and GURPS in that order.
Dammit Estar- you keep mentioning Harnmaster. Going to have to grab it at some point.
So, I get TFT, and GURPS would seem to be a related pick (though I think it is too slow). But why do you think Harmaster is better than either? It has an interesting, detailed take on armor, damage and injury. And its basic attack and defense mechanics are BRP-like, which is good. But I don't think of it is as being particularly fun as a tactical combat game.
Mythras for me... not sure if it meets the time limits but thats 'cause its combats aren't boring so I'm not clockwatching.
How does combat work in Mythras. Never mind; I just realized you mean Runequest.
Personal favourites for speed and function.
BX D&D: One table and the fewest moving parts that still gets the job done.
5e D&D: This is a breeze to GM combats for and even large fights tend to clip along nicely even at higher levels.
Dragon Storm: GMed and played this alot and combats flow pretty well. You had all your options laid out with what cards you had and that limits bogging down in choices.
Albedo: probably my hands down favourite for realistic brutal modern combat that rolls along smoothly.
Boot Hill: second favourite for modern combat.
Star Frontiers: This another that I like for SF combat. And its space combat is one of my favourites too.
Gamma World: I liked how this games combat had different weapons have different chances to-hit vs different armour levels. Even with mutations left and right it is still pretty smooth to DM and never bogged down.
Quote from: Larsdangly;936851How does combat work in Mythras. Never mind; I just realized you mean Runequest.
Runequest 6 is a subtly, but importantly different beast from Runequest 2 and 3, however:).
Also, when you say "resolvable in 10/30 minutes", do you mean "possibly resolvable", "average time of resolution", or that it should rarely if ever take longer than that? That would hugely influence my own answer;).
4th edition D&D would be high on the list.
OD&D (or whatever retro-clone equivalent) wins for ease and speed. Also, as most men-at-arms and humanoid monsters have 1D6 HP and weapons do 1D6 damage, the forces are going to chop chop each other nice and quick so tactics and dice luck are mixed nicely.
Palladium if you want lots of maneuvers and options, but Palladium Fantasy is effectively [(AD&D + Runequest)/2] so you get the good and bad of both of those systems.
Savage Worlds if you want to resolve big mash up encounters with figs on the table. If the players know the rules and don't dick around, you can do 20 vs 20 in 30 mins.
Quote from: RunningLaser;9368614th edition D&D would be high on the list.
If you use morale rules, the 4e slog vanishes.
I have no idea why those weren't codified in the rules. AKA, if a monster is Bloodied, it saves vs. Morale (unless unthinking beastie, golem or idiot undead) - with any GM modifiers based on the situation - and if it fails, it bolts. That makes fights go soooo much faster.
With 4e though, you'd have to say "half HPs" instead of "Bloodied" because I'm sure there are lots of ways to apply the "Bloodied" status tag without actually being below 50% hps.
It seems like either 4e or WFRP3, both "cards and powers" games, would be pretty good for just combat games.
Quote from: CRKrueger;936870With 4e though, you'd have to say "half HPs" instead of "Bloodied" because I'm sure there are lots of ways to apply the "Bloodied" status tag without actually being below 50% hps.
Perhaps those should cause a morale check too? IRL, many people tend to run away without having to be sliced-up first.
I don't understand all the votes for OD&D and 4E. The first is a great all around role playing game, but you can't seriously tell me it is the thing you would pick if you were going to spend an evening playing gladiatorial combats. I call BS on that - it is just way to basic and monotonous. 4E is obviously designed with just this sort of question in mind, but I think it is way, way too slow. I doubt a small group could honestly resolve a fight with a half dozen combatants on a side in less than 1-2 hours. There are just so many special powers and other moving parts.
Quote from: Larsdangly;936890I don't understand all the votes for OD&D and 4E. The first is a great all around role playing game, but you can't seriously tell me it is the thing you would pick if you were going to spend an evening playing gladiatorial combats. I call BS on that - it is just way to basic and monotonous. 4E is obviously designed with just this sort of question in mind, but I think it is way, way too slow. I doubt a small group could honestly resolve a fight with a half dozen combatants on a side in less than 1-2 hours. There are just so many special powers and other moving parts.
Obviously I only looked at the first part of your question and didn't see the 10 minute combat part:) I'm writing to Santa asking him for a clue.
I cant think of an engaging combat system that takes less than 1/2 hr to resolve a challenging group fight.
Quote from: Omega;936856Personal favourites for speed and function.
BX D&D: One table and the fewest moving parts that still gets the job done.
5e D&D: This is a breeze to GM combats for and even large fights tend to clip along nicely even at higher levels.
Dragon Storm: GMed and played this alot and combats flow pretty well. You had all your options laid out with what cards you had and that limits bogging down in choices.
Albedo: probably my hands down favourite for realistic brutal modern combat that rolls along smoothly.
Boot Hill: second favourite for modern combat.
Star Frontiers: This another that I like for SF combat. And its space combat is one of my favourites too.
Gamma World: I liked how this games combat had different weapons have different chances to-hit vs different armour levels. Even with mutations left and right it is still pretty smooth to DM and never bogged down.
As much as I love 5e I can't endorse it as a "fun" combat system because it always starts to drag or become tedious with a lot of combatants or a big boss.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;936895As much as I love 5e I can't endorse it as a "fun" combat system because it always starts to drag or become tedious with a lot of combatants or a big boss.
Hasnt been a problem for us so far and weve done some large battles with no minis or maps and it still flows along pretty good even as we approached 10th level.
Quote from: Omega;936896Hasnt been a problem for us so far and weve done some large battles with no minis or maps and it still flows along pretty good even as we approached 10th level.
Well, that depends. What do you define as slow or tedious. How long did those fights take? Maybe you just have more patience.
Not an endorsement, because I haven't played it yet, but I really want to try Tales of Blades and Heroes... specifically because I really like the miniatures skirmish game it's based on (Song of Blades and Heroes).
Along the same line of how we played a lot of Melee/Wizard... then The Fantasy Trip... and later bought into GURPS.
Quote from: Psikerlord;936894I cant think of an engaging combat system that takes less than 1/2 hr to resolve a challenging group fight.
I have to admit, that I find the requirements in the OP fairly contradictory. I generally lean to combat systems that are fairly quick and simple so the focus stays on the larger story. If combat really is the center of the game though, then I would probably lean towards something would take more than ten minutes.
For me it's GURPS. Admittedly it only meets criteria at the more basic end of the system and you need to stay away from fully automatic explosive attacks, though, they could very well end a combat in a hurry.
But combat length is very flexible, with the right rolls a combat can end very quickly and with the wrong ones it can draw out indefinitely.
I also like Rolemaster, where combats can be very short indeed! I find D&D less variable but most D&D fights are pretty slow when high level fighters are involved because the amount of damage they deal doesn't scale up with level the way hit points do.
Quote from: Larsdangly;936890I don't understand all the votes for OD&D and 4E. The first is a great all around role playing game, but you can't seriously tell me it is the thing you would pick if you were going to spend an evening playing gladiatorial combats. I call BS on that - it is just way to basic and monotonous.
As I've run gladiatorial contests with OD&D, I call FU on your BS.
I'm not talking Dude A and Dude B standing next to each other and rolling dice. I'm talking Men & Chariots vs. Monsters and/or mass combats with a team of NPCs of equal level. No reason any of that would be monotonous or basic...especially if you add in that the crowd must be entertained so PCs must add in some flash and pizzazz.
Quote from: Larsdangly;9368904E is obviously designed with just this sort of question in mind, but I think it is way, way too slow. I doubt a small group could honestly resolve a fight with a half dozen combatants on a side in less than 1-2 hours. There are just so many special powers and other moving parts.
Its a non issue in Heroic tier with morale rules...if you have players who know 4e and don't dick around acting like each move is some world championship maneuver.
Again, I use morale rules because living things don't want to die.
I ran plenty of 4e at low levels. I didn't like Paragon and I thought Epic was never playtested, but give me 4th to 7th level PCs vs a EL+2 encounter and it will be over in a hour. I used to run 4e RPGA "dungeon delves" at cons and those were 2 hour games involving 2-4 combats and the PC's goal was to get as far as possible before time ran out. Of course, it was RPGA so the fights were EL or EL+1 (at best), but the advantage was player who knew their PCs and knew the rules with a motivation to play quickly.
If you want a "humane" gladiatorial arena, aka not fights to the death, its easy enough to have rules that once bloodied NPCs (or PCs) can drop their weapons and surrender, and any who attack them lose honor or worse. That would work in a Lawful or Neutral city where life has some value.
But regardless of the system, I run fast combats. If you can't quickly make a decision, I start a 3 finger countdown and at zero, your PC skips their turn. Your job during other player's turns is to decide WTF you want to do and be ready when I call your initiative. That takes some explaining to players....AKA, more reasons I like OD&D because less fiddly bits means players make quicker decisions (mostly).
Quote from: Spinachcat;936931If you want a "humane" gladiatorial arena, aka not fights to the death, its easy enough to have rules that once bloodied NPCs (or PCs) can drop their weapons and surrender, and any who attack them lose honor or worse. That would work in a Lawful or Neutral city where life has some value.
I wonder what that tells us about Rome;).
I don't so much use morale rules as simply assume that most sentient foes will flee or surrender if they're getting their asses kicked. Skeletons, zombies, berserkers, and chaos warriors fight to the death. That's one of the things that makes them scary. If PCs keep killing foes who are surrendering and can't flee, they'll generally make a last stand and I'll play them a lot meaner than I would otherwise.
Quote from: Baulderstone;936915I have to admit, that I find the requirements in the OP fairly contradictory. I generally lean to combat systems that are fairly quick and simple so the focus stays on the larger story. If combat really is the center of the game though, then I would probably lean towards something would take more than ten minutes.
The Fantasy Trip really is consistent with the things I said - tt's a hex-based, battle-map kind of tactical skirmish game, but people get mowed down quickly and anyone who knows how to play can resolve a fight in minutes. GURPS is a more detailed and thought out version of the same system, certainly better in a 'white room' sort of way, but is definitely slower to play. A simple duel between two combatants who aren't too complicated could probably fit within my criteria; scale it up to a dozen or more combatants and things might get a bit out of control, just because the decision tree in GURPS is a lot bigger, so players tend to drag when managing multiple combatants.
Man-to-Man (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/man-to-man/) came to mind as meeting most of your criteria, and as a rules middle-ground between TFT and GURPS.
But, now that I think of it, I don't recall there being any magic present in MtM. I'm pretty sure there were examples of monsters (at least humanoid monster, like orcs), but it's been a long time since I've looked at MtM.
Otherwise, I don't have anything to offer. I don't really play any tactically detailed combat systems now. I dabbled in RQ3, MRQ2, and RQ6 years ago, but I've played more abstracted combat in recent years.
GURPS using hex map and all the rules (prefer my own house rules, then 3e - 4e is ok but I might rather play 2e or 1e than 4e), then TFT with house rules, then TFT.
I can enjoy some other games, but I can't help comparing them to GURPS and TFT.
Quote from: K Peterson;936997Man-to-Man (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/man-to-man/) came to mind as meeting most of your criteria, and as a rules middle-ground between TFT and GURPS.
But, now that I think of it, I don't recall there being any magic present in MtM. I'm pretty sure there were examples of monsters (at least humanoid monster, like orcs), but it's been a long time since I've looked at MtM.
Man To Man is just the pre-1e GURPS combat system, with no mental skills. No real rules for magic except of course all the many rules you can add from the various magic systems for GURPS...
But yes, that's still a good answer, because it's a good way to learn the GURPS combat rules without all the noise of rules for other things (especially in 4e).
Oh and yes, there is a nice adventure book for Man To Man called Orcslayer, which has orcs/dwarves/elves and a monster or two, and some decent travel rules. There were also some MtM rules (I think in the newsletter) for Lizard Men and Minotaurs and some ads/disads that all then showed up later in later GURPS places.
I'd say TRoS, Mythras, Spycraft2.0, Fantasy Craft, Spellbound Kingdoms, ORE (Reign and StarORE), Musha Shugyo, Legends of the Wulin and Fight! the Fighting Game RPG are my strongest contenders;).
Quote from: AsenRG;937321I'd say TRoS, Mythras, Spycraft2.0, Fantasy Craft, Spellbound Kingdoms, ORE (Reign and StarORE), Musha Shugyo, Legends of the Wulin and Fight! the Fighting Game RPG are my strongest contenders;).
That's not top dog Asen, that's a pack:)
Quote from: RunningLaser;937323That's not top dog Asen, that's a pack:)
What can I say? I've got quite a few dogs that could join this fight:p! Might be because I like my games to have at least decent combat systems:)!
Oh, and let's add GURPS 4e with the Martial Arts supplement, Zenobia and Dog Town. I've used them all for solitaire arenas;).
For that matter, TRoS even had an Windows application where you could have two fighters dishing it out:D!
what you guys are talking about is taking an rpg and make it play as a wargame. I still play wargames, so I would choose an actual wargame. So I choose Avalon Hill's Firepower as the best and most fun simulation of man to man modern combat...
Quote from: Larsdangly;936985The Fantasy Trip really is consistent with the things I said - tt's a hex-based, battle-map kind of tactical skirmish game, but people get mowed down quickly and anyone who knows how to play can resolve a fight in minutes.
Okay. That makes sense. I think the intersection of "RPGs that resolve combats quickly" and "RPGs with combats that are detailed enough to make a fun game in their own right" is in "RPGs where people get mowed down quickly".
I think the question is worth asking for rpg players because you actually spend a lot of your rpg time playing a wargame (or skirmish game if you prefer). If your game night includes 2-4 fights, each of which takes ~15-30 minutes, you could easily spend a quarter to half your time resolving fights. Why spend all that time playing a game that is, taken on its own terms, shitty?