Just got a email from rpgdrivethru about Onyx Path's new game called Beast: The Primordial. I am not touching that shit, but I am working on ideas to replace Onyx Path. So my question is how would you replace Chronicles of Darkness?
Unsuccessfully.
The same way I 'replaced' CoC 7e, by not playing it and sticking with earlier versions of CoC from before the company injected it full of stuff I don't like.
I use Urban Shadows for all my WoD/CoD needs these days. It used PbtA so your tolerance of that rules will determine if it's a good fit for you.
With Classic World of Darkness?
That depends. Onyx Path has cornered the urban fantasy market based on OneBookShelf seller ratings. The few non-OOP competitors are dresden files, shadowrun, and some indie titles.
If you want to run stories with an overarching addiction metaphor, use Feed by Whistlepunk Games. If you are familiar with the OOP Nightlife, you can easily represent the Kin as strains.
If you prefer more Buffy, Angel, Charmed, Supernatural, Sleepy Hollow style of play, try Monster of the Week.
If you prefer Teen Wolf, Vampire Diaries, or other teenager angst shows, try Monsterhearts.
If you prefer politics about various factions in the supernatural underworld, try Urban Shadows. It substitutes for Everlasting or Witchcraft in a pinch.
Otherwise I would wait to see how Paradox handles World of Darkness 4e.
CoD is a pretty generic system all by itself. What is it you're wanting to replace? You could run all kinds of genres by itself just using CoD/Armory/Reloaded/Dogs of War and the Car-vehicle-book (name escapes me).
The system has it's issues like all others do, but the toolkit nature of it lets you do whatever you really need it to do as long as you're not trying to do "supers" or something.
Quote from: tenbones;888721CoD is a pretty generic system all by itself. What is it you're wanting to replace? You could run all kinds of genres by itself just using CoD/Armory/Reloaded/Dogs of War and the Car-vehicle-book (name escapes me).
The system has it's issues like all others do, but the toolkit nature of it lets you do whatever you really need it to do as long as you're not trying to do "supers" or something.
Those issues include poorly welding FATE to Storyteller, too many rules, and everything exception-based. Playing is an exercise in masochism.
We keep coming back to this...
1) What do you find so compelling about the WOD/COD that you must masochistically follow it? What did these people do to you?!?!
2) What do you love so much about WOD/COD?
3) What are you looking for in your play experience? What happens in a typical session? What kind of adventures/campaigns to you run with it?
4) Why do the other 100 generic systems out there not work for the system-bits?
I think you're more butt-hurt about something than you are inspired. People operate from two different motivations; inspiration and desperation. Where are you operating from?
You can spend the rest of your life bitching about how Onyx Path/White Wolf ruined your game, your life, and the universe... accomplishing NOTHING.
OR...
You could sit down, outline what you DO want, and then either a) find a system and use the setting stuff you like or b) modify the system to fit your tastes or EVEN BETTER c) design a system AND setting that fits what you want.
There is a likely probability that your desires are similar to another 1000 gamers out there, and if you look up Kevin Crawford's blog posts on the subject, can keep a small publishing company flush with that many fans, reasonable Kickstarters and realistic goals.
Stop focusing on the shit storm that puckers your butt-hole and instead focus on you. What do you want? Go make it happen.
And then the Snowman lived happily every after. The End.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;888677That depends. Onyx Path has cornered the urban fantasy market based on OneBookShelf seller ratings. The few non-OOP competitors are dresden files, shadowrun, and some indie titles.
First of all this is a really good post. It sums up a lot of what the alternatives can provide depending on what you are looking for.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;888677If you want to run stories with an overarching addiction metaphor, use Feed by Whistlepunk Games. If you are familiar with the OOP Nightlife, you can easily represent the Kin as strains.
Right choice. Not something I wanna do though. Becomes a bit to EMO for my taste.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;888677If you prefer more Buffy, Angel, Charmed, Supernatural, Sleepy Hollow style of play, try Monster of the Week.
Or Buffy/Angel (Unisystem) or maybe East Texas University. This is if you want the "paranormal investigator" focus in your games. I like this focus and my choice would be ETU simply because I play a lot of SW lately.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;888677If you prefer Teen Wolf, Vampire Diaries, or other teenager angst shows, try Monsterhearts.
This certainly is too EMO for my taste, but this stuff seems populair these days, so soit.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;888677If you prefer politics about various factions in the supernatural underworld, try Urban Shadows. It substitutes for Everlasting or Witchcraft in a pinch.
You mean you could replace US with those two games? Or do you mean Urban Shadows actually replaces the other two games, because it's better?
Urban Shadows is a bit of a weird one. On one hand it's more open than the WoD, because the factions are really broad. They aren't even real factions, more some sort of classification of monster types. On the other hand it's more focused on becoming a monster (corruption) and politics (debts and favors). I do think these mechanics are better than the morality system of the wod and the debts and favors system is something a WoD actually should have.
These games all seem to be focusing on the "Masquerade/Wainscot society" aspect of the WoD. I like Witchcraft a lot, because it feels more open and broad than WoD. Yes more open than nWoD as well.
Another game I am looking out for to replace my Wainscot Society void is Fae Nightmares, which is a kickstartered SW indie game. It will actually have random mission generators for combat, investigation and politics, so I guess it will be broad in focus. Unfortunately it takes forever to get released, if it ever will. Crossing my fingers for that one.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;888677Otherwise I would wait to see how Paradox handles World of Darkness 4e.
Or just play the old games.
Well I am not completely lazy and redoing the Perception Effect with a much better name. It is now called Fade and here (http://clashofweirddreams.blogspot.com/2016/03/fade.html) is its new home.
Quote from: Snowman0147;888786Well I am not completely lazy and redoing the Perception Effect with a much better name. It is now called Fade and here (http://clashofweirddreams.blogspot.com/2016/03/fade.html) is its new home.
If FADE is meant to be an OSR game, does than mean you're adapting the Opening the Dark SRD or reinventing the ST rules yourself? What major facets set it apart from the failed AAA titles like Witchcraft or Everlasting and the niche indies like Urban Shadows or Feed?
Witchcraft failed?
Everlasting was a AAA title?
April Fool's...or just Fool?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;888850If FADE is meant to be an OSR game, does than mean you're adapting the Opening the Dark SRD or reinventing the ST rules yourself? What major facets set it apart from the failed AAA titles like Witchcraft or Everlasting and the niche indies like Urban Shadows or Feed?
Opening the Dark?
Look I am doing my own thing like Sine Nomine is doing. I finally figured out a OSR way to not have a armor class to avoid THACO. All skill, attribute, and saving rolls follow a simple clean mechanic. Simple roll d20 equal to, or higher than TN. Of course TN is adjusted depending on difficulty.
Now facets?
I want it to focus on primal horror instead of personal horror so that kills off Feed. If the vampires don't care if they are vampires it does kill off the personal horror.
The only factions are belonging to mortals. Werewolves my have communities, but it is a loose organization in which packs are the center point. Vampires are solo creatures and the best you see is a small group. Witches do have cults, but those are scams so the smart ones just form cabals. A few witches just go solo. This is not urban shadow.
Don't know what Everlasting is so can't reply on that.
Need more info on Witchcraft before I can make a solid judgement.
Quote from: Snowman0147;888871Need more info on Witchcraft before I can make a solid judgement.
wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CJ_Carella%27s_WitchCraft)
review (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=127942&products_id=692&it=1)
Pretty much comparable to the WoD with it's many factions, but it's focus lies more externally on fighting the Reckoning and all the monsters that come with it. Instead of the WoD with it's internal focus on fighting your inner beast and internal political conflicts.
Why not just stick to nWoD 1e?
Quote from: The Butcher;888898Why not just stick to nWoD 1e?
I don't want to give Onyx Path more money. I really don't like the direction they are going.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;888850Opening the Dark SRD
+1
Playing it now, it is pretty good, imo.
Quote from: Snowman0147;888904I don't want to give Onyx Path more money. I really don't like the direction they are going.
I'm in agreement here. The X the Y is so played out. I liked back when they were willing to do something wonky and strange like Orpehus but of late they seem to be stuck in a rut. Pick up monster X apply drama Z. Too formulaic and mechanically it's just eh.
I'd just take something like Cypher or I dunno HERO and bash out my own material.
Quote from: Snowman0147;888904I don't want to give Onyx Path more money. I really don't like the direction they are going.
Get a used copy.
You may want to check this out:
Katanas & Trenchcoats: Retromodern Roleplaying by Ryan Macklin — Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ryanmacklin/katanas-and-trenchcoats-retromodern-roleplaying)
Quote from: 3rik;889035You may want to check this out:
Katanas & Trenchcoats: Retromodern Roleplaying by Ryan Macklin — Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ryanmacklin/katanas-and-trenchcoats-retromodern-roleplaying)
That's like 800% what I wanted to get away from. I like it when I'm being silly, but these days I could do with out the trench coat crowd.
Quote from: 3rik;889035You may want to check this out:
Katanas & Trenchcoats: Retromodern Roleplaying by Ryan Macklin — Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ryanmacklin/katanas-and-trenchcoats-retromodern-roleplaying)
I LOLed. :)
But I still have my 90s rpgs to fall back on. Imagination is a remarkably self-renewing resource. Props to the black lipstick, wine glass, and spiked collar, though. Tres en flique.
Quote from: 3rik;889035You may want to check this out:
Katanas & Trenchcoats: Retromodern Roleplaying by Ryan Macklin — Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ryanmacklin/katanas-and-trenchcoats-retromodern-roleplaying)
My angst days are done and far behind me. I seen it and when it bragged about angst I left that Kickstarter in the dust. Made me go 80's with...
Data Wolves!!!!!Cybernetic werewolves that hack your computers.
Now that is silly I can accept.
Quote from: Snowman0147;888871Opening the Dark?
It's a retroclone of Storytelling System. Backup here: https://www.scribd.com/collections/2653023/Opening-the-Dark
QuoteDon't know what Everlasting is so can't reply on that.
Need more info on Witchcraft before I can make a solid judgement.
Those were the original world of darkness heartbreakers. Everlasting was written by some WW writers and amplified the pretension by an order of magnitude. Both are available on OneBookShelf last I checked.
Quote from: CRKrueger;888853Witchcraft failed?
Everlasting was a AAA title?
April Fool's...or just Fool?
Witchcraft was canceled after five books. Everlasting had fairly high production values on par with WW at the time.
Do what I do.
Just play 1e nWoD with modifications as needed. If you don't want to give your money to Onyx Path/White Wolf, buy secondhand copies online or convert the games to a different system (like what I am trying to do with Vampire: The Requiem and Big Eyes Small Mouth) and just play that.
Quote from: Snowman0147;888871Need more info on Witchcraft before I can make a solid judgement.
PDF is free..... (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/692/CJ-Carrellas-WitchCraft?cPath=57_93&it=1)
Quote from: Doc Sammy;889232Do what I do.
Just play 1e nWoD with modifications as needed. If you don't want to give your money to Onyx Path/White Wolf, buy secondhand copies online or convert the games to a different system (like what I am trying to do with Vampire: The Requiem and Big Eyes Small Mouth) and just play that.
To me the only game that does what I want is Hunter the Vigil. Because it has rules for creating all monster types and the game isn't too much focused around it's themes and politics. I find most other settings a bit stifling and contrived.
What do you guys actually think of WoD Mirrors with all those hacks and alternative rules?
Quote from: Mostlyjoe;889049That's like 800% what I wanted to get away from. I like it when I'm being silly, but these days I could do with out the trench coat crowd.
I've been following the KS updates to see if I should back it or not and the game looks pretty cool. I think behind the silliness and parody there is a good game to be played.
The author posted a preview (http://somanykatanas.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/KatanasTrenchcoats-YearOnePreview.pdf) of the Immortal splat for the previous version of the game (available of DTRPG), and it looks interesting.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;889374What do you guys actually think of WoD Mirrors with all those hacks and alternative rules?
One of the best books to happen. It started my path to the asset mechanic with the merit hacks. Does a good job in replacing all those merits and made things less broken.
I considered making a retroclone once upon a time, but now I think it would be more prudent to mashup Monsterhearts, Monster of the Week and Urban Shadows. People play World of Darkness for the extensive background, so the only way to compete would be to write your own extensive background a la Witchcraft and Everlasting regardless of which rule system you pick. Those games are IMO mechanically superior to World of Darkness and have more positive and creative communities.
Quote from: Snowman0147;889432One of the best books to happen. It started my path to the asset mechanic with the merit hacks. Does a good job in replacing all those merits and made things less broken.
Well I think that's the main issue of all these wod topics lately. Do you want a game that focuses on it's themes and supports those with a setting and rules? Or do you want a game that let the players decide what they want and the game facilitates those choices with rules and setting hacks? I am in favor of the latter, although I find Unisystem or Savage Worlds easier to adapt to my taste than WoD. In a way Mirrors is good, but it is a little too complicated for my taste in providing rules for stuff I don't need rules for. The shards are interesting and imo better than the ones provided in Danse Macabre, where everything goes through the covenant mold.
Storyteller system, in all the variations I've seen, is far too loose to do the vigorous math gymnastics it seems to want to sell. You don't buy it for a hard math chassis like HERO or GURPS. You buy it for the setting, nebulous mechanics, flashy exception-based design widgets, and easy-to-pitch-to-newbies bucket of flavor mechanics (like Astrology or Animal Ken).
If you "grew out" of nebulous mechanics in a loose Storytelling world then you "outgrew" White Wolf in its entirety. It's not "serious math-faptonium" gaming, for good and for ill. Grab any other more rigorous chassis, slap on monster of the week machanics, and best of luck converting the latent fanbase (who are often all White Wolf devotees and terrified of any and all math-like things).
Or you can embrace the crazy for what it is... :idunno:
Yeah I will give up on this and let it die.
Quote from: Opaopajr;889895If you "grew out" of nebulous mechanics in a loose Storytelling world then you "outgrew" White Wolf in its entirety. It's not "serious math-faptonium" gaming, for good and for ill. Grab any other more rigorous chassis, slap on monster of the week machanics, and best of luck converting the latent fanbase (who are often all White Wolf devotees and terrified of any and all math-like things).
Or you can embrace the crazy for what it is... :idunno:
I never liked rules-heavy rpg's. Too much dice rolling, slowing everything down. It's not the system that's bothering me, although I do prefer something without a dice pool.
It's the settings. For example Vampire has always been about "Vampire" and not about vampires, if you understand what I mean. If you would ask a nWoD Requiem GM what his setting is like the answer is always something like "The Invictus is forming an alliance with the Ordo Dracul after a coup against the Carthians who ruled the city for a century ..." and then I mentally switch off.
I like Unisystem better for example, because those games ask what you want and then try to facilitate that type of setting and that type of playstyle. No judgment. You can do tense survival horror or pulpy action and you can switch up the setting as well.
Btw, I just found out After the Vampire Wars is out in bookform. Still waiting for the pdf though, but it looks interesting.
Yeah, White Wolf prided itself on being setting jargon heavy at the expense of fresh blood. Which is a pity because a lot of *could* be simplified into easier to grok premises. Not so confident about nWoD, as the differences between sect & clan was more baroque shoe pissing contests from my quick scan.
But for example, Anarchs v.:
- Cam - Young Turks trying to modernize decayed Ottoman Empire to survive modernity.
- Sabbat - Young Turks trying to avoid colonizatio by rampaging Russian communists and their doomsday cult fixation.
- Laibon/Quincunx/Thunder Courts - Post-colonialism from different sides of the colonies; spoiled Western children with 1st world problems vs. old hegemonies recovering from disarray.
- Anarchs - the thousand protests bloom, and are becoming vulnerable to bigger hegemons.
In many ways, as jargon heavy oWoD was, its oft criticized clan and sect simplifications (stereotypes) helped pitch premises faster. Here come the Assamites... oh, terrorism. Here come the Followers of Set... oh, dens of iniquity. Here come the Lasombra... oh, ruthless bossy perfectionists. It was easier to translate the old stuff into plain speak; the newer stuff was harder for me.
It sounds like you want smaller stakes to feel what it is like to be vampiric, though, than be thrust into the politics prematurely. I thought that was nWoD's selling point, but alas... I think it is doable in any version, but I think you gotta dump the names and powers and just focus on the day to day grind of it. Like make them work for every hunt and ghoul, just so it stands out more
Quote from: Opaopajr;890016Yeah, White Wolf prided itself on being setting jargon heavy at the expense of fresh blood.
That's one for the WTF? box.
Quote from: Opaopajr;890016It sounds like you want smaller stakes to feel what it is like to be vampiric, though, than be thrust into the politics prematurely. I thought that was nWoD's selling point, but alas... I think it is doable in any version, but I think you gotta dump the names and powers and just focus on the day to day grind of it. Like make them work for every hunt and ghoul, just so it stands out more
Nah, what I meant was most WoD games seem to be really about all the political moving and shaking, almost to the point that's the only thing happening in the game and everything else around it simply doesn't exist anymore. Instead I prefer a setting where a million things are happening and you just have to single out one thing you like. If you want to go relic hunting, investigating haunted houses or fighting monsters in the sewers, it's all up to you. Want shifters in your game? Go ahead. Want vampires cursed? Fine. Want them victims of a virus? Fine too.
Ahh, you wanted to play the splats together! In a sandbox!
Oh that's very much not what Storyteller can do, regardless of how tempting it was. Outside of conversion notes for every other splat line, the different monsters did not play well together at all, IME. That's a totally different game experience than WW exception-based design can handle -- again, better with a more universal system like GURPS or maybe CJ Carella's Witchcraft.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;890005(...) Btw, I just found out After the Vampire Wars is out in bookform. Still waiting for the pdf though, but it looks interesting.
The default setting is much like True Blood, from what I read. If that's your thing and you enjoy BRP, it's probably a viable alternative to WoD.
Quote from: Opaopajr;890165Ahh, you wanted to play the splats together! In a sandbox!
Oh that's very much not what Storyteller can do, regardless of how tempting it was. Outside of conversion notes for every other splat line, the different monsters did not play well together at all, IME. That's a totally different game experience than WW exception-based design can handle -- again, better with a more universal system like GURPS or maybe CJ Carella's Witchcraft.
Witchcraft indeed.
Although even a single monster line can be good, but it has to offer more of a sandbox style of play. I still feel limited in my options when I read vampire. A vampire or a werewolf game can be good, but it will have to offer more variation. More options for playing it as gritty or as pulpy as you want. Options for different playstyles like politics, exploration, investigation or combat. Different setting options. Options for scale. All in one book.
Recently I am using a homebrew WoD setting with the players being cops investigating supernatural mysteries. It's fun but I need the WoD core, the Book of Spirits (for spirits and the Shadow), Second Sight (for cults and low magic), Tales of the 13th Precinct (cops) and possibly Hunter the Vigil for some factions and the rules to create all other monsters. I can do more or less the same with the Savage Worlds game the Thin Blue Line, which does all that in 150 pages and has a city setting as well.
In other words I want something more broad. WoD handles everything with a lot of depth, which leads to a lot of essay-style written books about one subject. They are really good at that. But that stuff isn't adding much to my games.
Edit: So a sandox indeed, but not necessarily all the splats together.
Quote from: 3rik;890286The default setting is much like True Blood, from what I read. If that's your thing and you enjoy BRP, it's probably a viable alternative to WoD.
Yeah the Masquerade is over if that's what you mean. I hope there aren't any cheesy sex scenes in it as well. ;)
Something interesting I noticed in W:tF is that many first tongue words violate Sumerian phonology and phonotactics. It is clear the writers had no knowledge of Sumerian or what an actual precursor language would logically look like.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;890348Yeah the Masquerade is over if that's what you mean. I hope there aren't any cheesy sex scenes in it as well. ;)
From what I read some Masquerade LARPs were all about that. ;)
Boy that True Blood series was silly. I still can't believe people actually enjoyed that shit. :idunno:
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;890407Something interesting I noticed in W:tF is that many first tongue words violate Sumerian phonology and phonotactics. It is clear the writers had no knowledge of Sumerian or what an actual precursor language would logically look like.
Maybe they went for more guttural sounds better suited for the canine-like larynx and vocal tract of the Dalu and Gauru forms?
Quote from: The Butcher;890677Maybe they went for more guttural sounds better suited for the canine-like larynx and vocal tract of the Dalu and Gauru forms?
Nope. Guttural is a nonsense term for ugly sounding stuff. What you probably mean is uvular and glottal. And the answer is no, sorry. First Tongue sounds like English.
First Tongue is the language of spirits, who lack any internal structure. The writers, among other things, added the "th" and "f" phonemes which didn't exist in Sumerian and ignored that Sumerian is a syllabary where consonant clusters are severely restricted or nonexistent. Those words cannot be written in Sumerian Cuneiform nor can they be pronounced phonetically (with either English or Sumerian phonemes) without adding or subtracting the written vowels and consonants. The pronunciation guide also indicates that the vowels are not correlated with their written value and are pronounced with English phonemes and not Sumerian phonemes (which are identical to Spanish).
As an attempt to create a plausible Sumerian precursor, it is complete garbage that would be laughed out of any conlang community. It's obviously just funny sounding English.
After the Vampire wars is great
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;890961Nope. Guttural is a nonsense term for ugly sounding stuff. What you probably mean is uvular and glottal. And the answer is no, sorry. First Tongue sounds like English.
Ah well, it was worth a try.
Since I'm not a linguist or into conlangs, it doesn't really bother me that much. *shrug*
Quote from: PencilBoy99;891077After the Vampire wars is great
Yeah? Good news. I'd been waiting to buy it because, from what I understood, the version for sale is the original printing... and that they're reworking some of the layout and art... but hopefully not messing with the actual text at all.
Quote from: The Butcher;891111Ah well, it was worth a try.
Since I'm not a linguist or into conlangs, it doesn't really bother me that much. *shrug*
The irony is that it isn't very difficult to make isolated words that sound realistic. All you need to do is define what consonants and vowels occur in the not-conlang and what the syllable structure is limited to. In the case of Sumerian, it shares only some consonants with English, has only four vowels, and syllables are limited to V, CV and VC (and then some consonants may only appear at the beginning or end).
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;890407Something interesting I noticed in W:tF is that many first tongue words violate Sumerian phonology and phonotactics. It is clear the writers had no knowledge of Sumerian or what an actual precursor language would logically look like.
Given that they couldn't get details from the modern world right, color me unsurprised.