I came across this old one from the Pundit about long campaigns and I am wondering what you think about using timelines in campaigns? Do you use it or is it more about the characters? If you use it, then how elaborate is it with all those events?

That's a good question.  It's not something I have done, beyond having a paragraph or two to explain the past influences that led to the present setting for the current adventure.  I'll wait to gauge the player interest, before I pour a lot of time into it; beyond having some maps drawn and ready to go. 

If the players decide to travel to the frozen north, I won't let them complete that journey until the next gaming session.  I'll let this session play out as the journey itself, but I don't have to have that destination 100% ready to go, until the next session.  Some destinations on the map can be reached in this session, and some may take more game time than that.

I'll reveal more about the timeline, as play unfolds.  That gives me time to expound upon it, myself.

Just like Jam, I do write something before a campaign starts and I have some kind of outline for
what kind of events could take place, but they are up to players how and if those things take place at all.

I only create new events or locales based on the player interest (sandboxy, I guess) but I do throw a ton of
plothooks and see which one sticks. If a player/character shows no interest fx. going to check if that rumor
about the smuggling operation utilizing a haunted countryside manor or not, there is little incentive in
designing something about it.

EDIT: I do not ask the players what kind of events and such the players want to play, by throwing the plothooks
at them works in a more organic way, it´s kind like "people vote with their wallets", though that is just my personal
stance on it. The bigger picture of the campaign is also pretty simple to build when you know what the player
characters are like, so designing plothooks which go in line with the character aspirations can work miracles.

I wrote about timelines as an antidote against railroading, one of th best antidotes IMO.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/05/railroading-in-space-and-time-and.html

My current campaign has no timeline, but I think I might soon hit the PCs with a ticking clock of some kind.

YOU CAN NOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT TIME RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT, I think there is some truth to that.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 07, 2022, 11:26:56 PM
That's a good question.  It's not something I have done, beyond having a paragraph or two to explain the past influences that led to the present setting for the current adventure.  I'll wait to gauge the player interest, before I pour a lot of time into it; beyond having some maps drawn and ready to go. 

If the players decide to travel to the frozen north, I won't let them complete that journey until the next gaming session.  I'll let this session play out as the journey itself, but I don't have to have that destination 100% ready to go, until the next session.  Some destinations on the map can be reached in this session, and some may take more game time than that.

I'll reveal more about the timeline, as play unfolds.  That gives me time to expound upon it, myself.

Yes, more location based. That was another question I had: do people use a global or a more local timeline? So you use a more local or regional one. In the frozen north there might a problem with a plague or shortage of food, but in the south there might be the murder of an important noble or the discovery of an ancient temple. Essentially events on a timeline becoming current events. Pushing up the end of a journey till the next session works really well in for example fantasy or space opera settings, but doesn't really work that well in a more modern setting (if it's urban) or in any city setting. How do you deal with that?

Quote from: Angry Goblin on December 08, 2022, 08:37:33 AM
I only create new events or locales based on the player interest (sandboxy, I guess) but I do throw a ton of
plothooks and see which one sticks. If a player/character shows no interest fx. going to check if that rumor
about the smuggling operation utilizing a haunted countryside manor or not, there is little incentive in
designing something about it.

I once got into a debate with a player who didn't like plothooks, because it was luring players into pre-planned things. Instead he liked settings full of interesting stuff and situations and it's up to the players to get involved with it or not. He thought plothooks were railroading not sandbox. Still haven't made up my mind about it.
But I get what you mean.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 08, 2022, 10:00:52 AM
I wrote about timelines as an antidote against railroading, one of th best antidotes IMO.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/05/railroading-in-space-and-time-and.html

My current campaign has no timeline, but I think I might soon hit the PCs with a ticking clock of some kind.

YOU CAN NOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT TIME RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT, I think there is some truth to that.

Right. Read it.

The best way to avoid "railroading" might be building an explicit "railroad" of events and letting your PCs free to derail it, IF they are willing and able.
This is what happens if the PCs do nothing.

Personally I like it when the players get involved and I also like it when they don't and then "This is what happens if the PCs do nothing.", but what I like the best is when the players can't really do anything about it, but are still affected by it. A really harsh winter for example or a failed harvest. It's happening around them.

Quote from: jan paparazzi on December 08, 2022, 04:03:16 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 08, 2022, 10:00:52 AM
I wrote about timelines as an antidote against railroading, one of th best antidotes IMO.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/05/railroading-in-space-and-time-and.html

My current campaign has no timeline, but I think I might soon hit the PCs with a ticking clock of some kind.

YOU CAN NOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT TIME RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT, I think there is some truth to that.

Right. Read it.

The best way to avoid "railroading" might be building an explicit "railroad" of events and letting your PCs free to derail it, IF they are willing and able.
This is what happens if the PCs do nothing.

Personally I like it when the players get involved and I also like it when they don't and then "This is what happens if the PCs do nothing.", but what I like the best is when the players can't really do anything about it, but are still affected by it. A really harsh winter for example or a failed harvest. It's happening around them.

Yes, fair point. I do address this briefly in the post, but I haven't used it in my campaigns. Weather is an interesting tool. Will give it a try.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 08, 2022, 10:00:52 AM
I wrote about timelines as an antidote against railroading, one of th best antidotes IMO.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/05/railroading-in-space-and-time-and.html

My current campaign has no timeline, but I think I might soon hit the PCs with a ticking clock of some kind.

YOU CAN NOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT TIME RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT, I think there is some truth to that.

I will check this out, thanks!

Quote from: jan paparazzi on December 08, 2022, 03:08:11 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 07, 2022, 11:26:56 PM
That's a good question.  It's not something I have done, beyond having a paragraph or two to explain the past influences that led to the present setting for the current adventure.  I'll wait to gauge the player interest, before I pour a lot of time into it; beyond having some maps drawn and ready to go. 

If the players decide to travel to the frozen north, I won't let them complete that journey until the next gaming session.  I'll let this session play out as the journey itself, but I don't have to have that destination 100% ready to go, until the next session.  Some destinations on the map can be reached in this session, and some may take more game time than that.

I'll reveal more about the timeline, as play unfolds.  That gives me time to expound upon it, myself.

Yes, more location based. That was another question I had: do people use a global or a more local timeline? So you use a more local or regional one. In the frozen north there might a problem with a plague or shortage of food, but in the south there might be the murder of an important noble or the discovery of an ancient temple. Essentially events on a timeline becoming current events. Pushing up the end of a journey till the next session works really well in for example fantasy or space opera settings, but doesn't really work that well in a more modern setting (if it's urban) or in any city setting. How do you deal with that?

I used to play urban horror campaign for years and the GM clearly had something in the sleeve already designed along with letting the players to
fool around in whatever direction they wanted and improvising those, so IMO it should work whichever the setting.

Quote from: jan paparazzi on December 08, 2022, 03:24:45 PM

Quote from: Angry Goblin on December 08, 2022, 08:37:33 AM
I only create new events or locales based on the player interest (sandboxy, I guess) but I do throw a ton of
plothooks and see which one sticks. If a player/character shows no interest fx. going to check if that rumor
about the smuggling operation utilizing a haunted countryside manor or not, there is little incentive in
designing something about it.

I once got into a debate with a player who didn't like plothooks, because it was luring players into pre-planned things. Instead he liked settings full of interesting stuff and situations and it's up to the players to get involved with it or not. He thought plothooks were railroading not sandbox. Still haven't made up my mind about it.
But I get what you mean.

My personal view is that gamemastering is always railroading to some extend if you plan something in advance. Whether the players know to what extend, that is another question. It should not be a problem as long as the players are made to feel as if they have a choice, which they can have if you allow them to trash your plans. As a GM I am infamous (apparently) for listening closely to what the characters have said and done in-game and use it to create events. Fx. Once one character boasted of his martial exploits while drunk in a local establishment. The next thing he woke up to, is that
he was pressed to lead a militia group when the local baron went to battle some aggressive barbarians nearby. What happened is that the players commended afterwards that they felt that the game world is/was very immersive due to that kind of causal connections. In that case it worked wonders atleast.

Like mentioned earlier, I do not plan the plothooks much farther than the initial event, unless players/characters bite the hook, so they cannot be railroading per se. Like Jam, if the players bite, I plan the events to take place the in next session, if possible. I guess it depends what people understand the phrases "railroading" and "plothook" to mean to start with. Plothooks are almost like a selection of doors which the players can open or leave them  unopened.

Otherwise, without preplanning it would be 100% improvisation. I know one GM who does it full time, but the events are likely pretty thin if you have to cough it all up in the last minute. Of course, one can get pretty good at it, but still.

Even with plothooks, there is no need for the characters to get involved if GM allows it. Fx. if there is a plague boiling up in a city, they can either:
1) Leave 2) Help 3) Ignore it. In all cases, the GM likely has something planned to cover all choices and in all cases players can have a choice. Also, it is also likely a question of main plot vs. metaplot. The plague can act as a flavor alone and characters can continue with whatever they were up to in the first place but the plague affects their actions. Fx. contacts get ill, their favourite haunts and businesses are closed, streets are filled with bloated corpses and gravediggers crowd the byways with their carts and city guards enforce curfew, which the characters can break if they wish. This is just me, though I would recommend to plan the main plot to some extend and leave the metaplots as both GM-plothooks and also allowing events based on player interest.

Quote from: jan paparazzi on December 08, 2022, 04:03:16 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 08, 2022, 10:00:52 AM
I wrote about timelines as an antidote against railroading, one of th best antidotes IMO.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/05/railroading-in-space-and-time-and.html

My current campaign has no timeline, but I think I might soon hit the PCs with a ticking clock of some kind.

YOU CAN NOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT TIME RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT, I think there is some truth to that.

Right. Read it.

The best way to avoid "railroading" might be building an explicit "railroad" of events and letting your PCs free to derail it, IF they are willing and able.
This is what happens if the PCs do nothing.

Personally I like it when the players get involved and I also like it when they don't and then "This is what happens if the PCs do nothing.", but what I like the best is when the players can't really do anything about it, but are still affected by it. A really harsh winter for example or a failed harvest. It's happening around them.

"Whether they do or don´t", I am on the same page with you on that one as per my previous post. Whether that is called railroading/plothooking/timelines or whatever makes little difference as long as the game world feels immersive and players feel as if they have a choice. 

Quote from: jan paparazzi on December 08, 2022, 03:24:45 PM

Quote from: Angry Goblin on December 08, 2022, 08:37:33 AM
I only create new events or locales based on the player interest (sandboxy, I guess) but I do throw a ton of
plothooks and see which one sticks. If a player/character shows no interest fx. going to check if that rumor
about the smuggling operation utilizing a haunted countryside manor or not, there is little incentive in
designing something about it.

I once got into a debate with a player who didn't like plothooks, because it was luring players into pre-planned things. Instead he liked settings full of interesting stuff and situations and it's up to the players to get involved with it or not. He thought plothooks were railroading not sandbox. Still haven't made up my mind about it.
But I get what you mean.

I wrestle with that a lot. Is it a railroad if the GM lays out a plot hook but doesn't force the PCs to accept it? Is a plot hook just a glorified "interesting situation"? Are the players going to even quibble over these definition and just want to play the damn game?

Quote from: Angry Goblin on December 09, 2022, 03:20:21 AM

Quote from: jan paparazzi on December 08, 2022, 03:24:45 PM

Quote from: Angry Goblin on December 08, 2022, 08:37:33 AM
I only create new events or locales based on the player interest (sandboxy, I guess) but I do throw a ton of
plothooks and see which one sticks. If a player/character shows no interest fx. going to check if that rumor
about the smuggling operation utilizing a haunted countryside manor or not, there is little incentive in
designing something about it.

I once got into a debate with a player who didn't like plothooks, because it was luring players into pre-planned things. Instead he liked settings full of interesting stuff and situations and it's up to the players to get involved with it or not. He thought plothooks were railroading not sandbox. Still haven't made up my mind about it.
But I get what you mean.

My personal view is that gamemastering is always railroading to some extend if you plan something in advance.

I disagree. A railroad has a specific definition. Where the GM forces the PCs down a certain path no matter what choices they make.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 09, 2022, 04:13:11 AM

Quote from: jan paparazzi on December 08, 2022, 03:24:45 PM

Quote from: Angry Goblin on December 08, 2022, 08:37:33 AM
I only create new events or locales based on the player interest (sandboxy, I guess) but I do throw a ton of
plothooks and see which one sticks. If a player/character shows no interest fx. going to check if that rumor
about the smuggling operation utilizing a haunted countryside manor or not, there is little incentive in
designing something about it.

I once got into a debate with a player who didn't like plothooks, because it was luring players into pre-planned things. Instead he liked settings full of interesting stuff and situations and it's up to the players to get involved with it or not. He thought plothooks were railroading not sandbox. Still haven't made up my mind about it.
But I get what you mean.

I wrestle with that a lot. Is it a railroad if the GM lays out a plot hook but doesn't force the PCs to accept it? Is a plot hook just a glorified "interesting situation"? Are the players going to even quibble over these definition and just want to play the damn game?

My thoughts exactly!