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Timeline of Woke Infiltration Into the RPG Hobby/Industry?

Started by jeff37923, January 09, 2025, 11:02:56 PM

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blackstone

#15
January 10, 2025, 02:23:54 PM Last Edit: January 10, 2025, 02:25:26 PM by blackstone
Quote from: Brad on January 10, 2025, 02:02:21 PMYeah but Diana is svelte, speaks clearly, and is obviously somewhat intelligent and nice. She's like the exact opposite of the black chicks in D&D now.


...which has a big ole booty, dread locks, and yells " OH NO! No you di'int! DIE muthafucka DIE!"

somebody make an AI art of this. please.
1. I'm a married homeowner with a career and kids. I won life. You can't insult me.

2. I've been deployed to Iraq, so your tough guy act is boring.

GeekyBugle

#16
January 10, 2025, 02:31:23 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 01:52:17 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on January 10, 2025, 09:37:03 AM
Quote from: Man at Arms on January 10, 2025, 04:48:45 AMWhen WOTC started work on D&D 3.0 the content of their first ever Player's Handbook, reflected some of their own personal preferences regarding gender, and having less white guys.  The big name creators involved, were in on that stuff.  They thought it was important to start changing the way D&D had been previously.  It's been growing and growing, ever since the year 2000, and the 3.0 edition.

To me that is woke in a nutshell. Instead of trying to create a campaign setting full of non-white guys they decide to alter what existed to make it have less white guys. I don't know if this is (1) Knowing that there aren't enough non-white guys playing to buy such a setting so it would be a big fail or (2) they like tearing things down and changing existing things more than building new things.

OD&D and AD&D were almost entirely white characters - but there were a number of pushes to have non-white characters in D&D during the TSR years after OD&D and AD&D. The first I remember was Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan in 1980, which had non-white pregenerated characters part of the Toltec-inspired "Olman Empire". Deities & Demigods (also 1980) had a bunch of non-European mythos, and TSR later published Oriental Adventures, Al-Qadim, and Maztica as official settings.

The D&D cartoon starting in 1983 featured a black girl as one of its core characters.



That said, I'd agree that 2E released in 1989 intentionally also had all-white character illustrations - as well as cutting out demons and devils and other sanitizing. So 3E was really the earliest edition that featured less white guys.

Still, both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms have always had a lot of non-white guys. They were designed as broad settings with lots of different ethnicities, not just European. But until 3rd edition, non-white characters weren't featured in the core rulebooks.


Including women or non-whites isn't automatically woke.

Gender/race bending is.

Speaking about "too much white straight men" is woke.

Ranting against chainmail bikinis is woke. Ditto for "the male gaze" or "hypersexualization"
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

jhkim

#17
January 10, 2025, 02:50:58 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 10, 2025, 02:31:23 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 01:52:17 PMThe D&D cartoon starting in 1983 featured a black girl as one of its core characters.


Including women or non-whites isn't automatically woke.

Gender/race bending is.

Speaking about "too much white straight men" is woke.

Including a black girl as a core character in the D&D series was unquestionably an intentional choice of ethnic diversity in the cast, just like other 1980s series like Captain Planet and the Planeteers.



This sort of planned ethnic diversity is clearly ideologically connected to the diversity of characters in 3E and later.

You could call it "pre-woke" or something by drawing the line differently, but I think it's obviously connected.

GeekyBugle

#18
January 10, 2025, 02:54:15 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 02:50:58 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 10, 2025, 02:31:23 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 01:52:17 PMThe D&D cartoon starting in 1983 featured a black girl as one of its core characters.


Including women or non-whites isn't automatically woke.

Gender/race bending is.

Speaking about "too much white straight men" is woke.

Including a black girl as a core character in the D&D series was unquestionably an intentional choice of ethnic diversity in the cast, just like other 1980s series like Captain Planet and the Planeteers.



This sort of planned ethnic diversity is clearly ideologically connected to the diversity of characters in 3E and later.

Erasing the ginger would be ideological. IMNSHO it was done for marketing reasons, just like the ads with girls on them. After all the cartoon was an ad for the game.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

jhkim

#19
January 10, 2025, 03:02:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 10, 2025, 02:54:15 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 02:50:58 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 10, 2025, 02:31:23 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 01:52:17 PMThe D&D cartoon starting in 1983 featured a black girl as one of its core characters.


Including women or non-whites isn't automatically woke.

Gender/race bending is.

Speaking about "too much white straight men" is woke.

Including a black girl as a core character in the D&D series was unquestionably an intentional choice of ethnic diversity in the cast, just like other 1980s series like Captain Planet and the Planeteers.



This sort of planned ethnic diversity is clearly ideologically connected to the diversity of characters in 3E and later.

Erasing the ginger would be ideological. IMNSHO it was done for marketing reasons, just like the ads with girls on them. After all the cartoon was an ad for the game.

I agree that it's marketing, but it's marketing to a liberal ideology. WotC was also marketing to liberal ideology. They're a corporation looking to profit.

It seems like splitting hairs to say that when the D&D cartoon deliberately highlights a black girl acrobat, then it's OK and non-woke, but when WotC has a black woman monk, that's woke.

blackstone

#20
January 10, 2025, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 02:50:58 PMIncluding a black girl as a core character in the D&D series was unquestionably an intentional choice of ethnic diversity in the cast, just like other 1980s series like Captain Planet and the Planeteers.

Ugh! Captain Planet and the Planeteers! SOOO GAY!
1. I'm a married homeowner with a career and kids. I won life. You can't insult me.

2. I've been deployed to Iraq, so your tough guy act is boring.

blackstone

#21
January 10, 2025, 03:20:16 PM
1. I'm a married homeowner with a career and kids. I won life. You can't insult me.

2. I've been deployed to Iraq, so your tough guy act is boring.

GeekyBugle

#22
January 10, 2025, 04:05:47 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 03:02:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 10, 2025, 02:54:15 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 02:50:58 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 10, 2025, 02:31:23 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 01:52:17 PMThe D&D cartoon starting in 1983 featured a black girl as one of its core characters.


Including women or non-whites isn't automatically woke.

Gender/race bending is.

Speaking about "too much white straight men" is woke.

Including a black girl as a core character in the D&D series was unquestionably an intentional choice of ethnic diversity in the cast, just like other 1980s series like Captain Planet and the Planeteers.



This sort of planned ethnic diversity is clearly ideologically connected to the diversity of characters in 3E and later.

Erasing the ginger would be ideological. IMNSHO it was done for marketing reasons, just like the ads with girls on them. After all the cartoon was an ad for the game.

I agree that it's marketing, but it's marketing to a liberal ideology. WotC was also marketing to liberal ideology. They're a corporation looking to profit.

It seems like splitting hairs to say that when the D&D cartoon deliberately highlights a black girl acrobat, then it's OK and non-woke, but when WotC has a black woman monk, that's woke.


So you don't know what woke is or want to pretend not to know what woke is.

By your position different strokes was woke, the fresh prince of belair was woke, Alien, Terminator were woke...

Either you're too ignorant to make engaging with you worth my time or you're too disingenuous, I'm betting for the latter.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

bat

#23
January 10, 2025, 04:24:55 PM
I do not believe that ethnic diversity is 'woke', it is saying anyone can join without being condescending. My players since the 80s have been of different colours, females have been at my table, and with a variety of backgrounds, to this day, why do they not deserve examples? Welcoming and forcing are two entirely different approaches. I have a Chinese player, a Mexican and a black guy, along with a couple of white guys, is this a problem for anyone? They are all great players and good friends.
Ancient Vaults & Eldritch Secrets

Sans la colère. Sans la haine. Et sans la pitié.

Jag är inte en människa. Det här är bara en dröm, och snart vaknar jag.


Running: Barbarians of Legend + Black Sword Hack, OSE
Playing: OSE

Brad

#24
January 10, 2025, 04:45:14 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 02:50:58 PMIncluding a black girl as a core character in the D&D series was unquestionably an intentional choice of ethnic diversity in the cast, just like other 1980s series like Captain Planet and the Planeteers.

For the D&D cartoon, I don't ever remember any of us who watched it thinking she didn't make sense just because she was black. No one. It was ONE black girl out of six people (17%), which is literally about the percentage of my middle school. "Oh, a black gymnast, okay." Now contrast with fucking Captain Planet, though, and that was obviously done specifically for "representation".

So it's not even close. It may have been intentional in the case of D&D, but it made sense and you could race-swap her to be a white girl and make Bobby and Sheila black siblings and it wouldn't have mattered.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

jhkim

#25
January 10, 2025, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: bat on January 10, 2025, 04:24:55 PMI do not believe that ethnic diversity is 'woke', it is saying anyone can join without being condescending. My players since the 80s have been of different colours, females have been at my table, and with a variety of backgrounds, to this day, why do they not deserve examples? Welcoming and forcing are two entirely different approaches. I have a Chinese player, a Mexican and a black guy, along with a couple of white guys, is this a problem for anyone? They are all great players and good friends.

Diversity itself isn't woke, but forced diversity for marketing purposes is generally regarded as woke.

There's a difference between organically having a black player, versus intentionally creating a black girl in the lead for marketing purposes. As Man at Arms put it,

Quote from: Man at Arms on January 10, 2025, 04:48:45 AMWhen WOTC started work on D&D 3.0 the content of their first ever Player's Handbook, reflected some of their own personal preferences regarding gender, and having less white guys.  The big name creators involved, were in on that stuff.  They thought it was important to start changing the way D&D had been previously.  It's been growing and growing, ever since the year 2000, and the 3.0 edition.

I claim that putting non-white iconic characters in 3E is the same marketing logic as putting a black girl in the D&D cartoon.

Krazz

#26
January 10, 2025, 05:08:35 PM
Quote from: bat on January 10, 2025, 04:24:55 PMI do not believe that ethnic diversity is 'woke', it is saying anyone can join without being condescending. My players since the 80s have been of different colours, females have been at my table, and with a variety of backgrounds, to this day, why do they not deserve examples? Welcoming and forcing are two entirely different approaches. I have a Chinese player, a Mexican and a black guy, along with a couple of white guys, is this a problem for anyone? They are all great players and good friends.

Your players' races and their characters' races are entirely different things. Players should be accepted regardless of race; characters, not so much. If the setting is faux-medieval England, I'd expect every character to be white, with possibly the odd exception. Similarly in campaigns set in faux-Shogun Japan, or faux-Zululand or faux-Incan Empire. If a large medieval setting looks like downtown Seattle everywhere the players go, verisimilitude is lost for me.
"The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king."

REH - The Phoenix on the Sword

jhkim

#27
January 10, 2025, 05:10:04 PM
Quote from: Brad on January 10, 2025, 04:45:14 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 02:50:58 PMIncluding a black girl as a core character in the D&D series was unquestionably an intentional choice of ethnic diversity in the cast, just like other 1980s series like Captain Planet and the Planeteers.

For the D&D cartoon, I don't ever remember any of us who watched it thinking she didn't make sense just because she was black. No one. It was ONE black girl out of six people (17%), which is literally about the percentage of my middle school. "Oh, a black gymnast, okay." Now contrast with fucking Captain Planet, though, and that was obviously done specifically for "representation".

So it's not even close. It may have been intentional in the case of D&D, but it made sense and you could race-swap her to be a white girl and make Bobby and Sheila black siblings and it wouldn't have mattered.

What are you claiming the percentages show? The D&D characters were random American kids on an amusement park ride, while the Planeteers came from all over the world. It would be ridiculous for the Planeteers to be 83% white.

If anything, the D&D group seems more forced. If I looked at groups of kids going on an amusement park ride in the U.S. in 1983 - it would be quite rare to see that mix of age, ethnicity, and gender as Diana and the others.

Ratman_tf

#28
January 10, 2025, 05:28:11 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 10, 2025, 02:50:58 PMYou could call it "pre-woke" or something by drawing the line differently, but I think it's obviously connected.

For the time, I think it was inocuous. The 80's had a pretty "progressive" bent, with shows like Diff'rent Strokes and "diverse" character rosters in cartoons.
In hindsight, they were laying the groundwork for the regressive, racist insanity of modern media. I think the tipping point was the emergence of current race grifters like Robin D'Anglelou. So about 2018 is when it went mainstream with White Fragility.

The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

JeremyR

#29
January 10, 2025, 05:29:25 PM
The kids in the D&D cartoon were 15 to 13 years old, except for the little kid, who was a younger brother of the red haired girl.

In the 80s it was not uncommon to have friends a year or so older or younger than you, especially before you were 16 and could drive. You would hang out with kids in your neighborhood.

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