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Three Dungeons & Dragons artists hired by WotC were detained by ICE (https://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/08/29/dungeons-and-dragons-artists-ice/) in Seattle and then later denied entry to the U.S.

QuoteThe artists -- Anna Steinbaur, Magali Villeneuve, and Titus Lunter -- were allegedly detained at the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport by ICE officials while en route to the United States for a brainstorming sessions. The three artists were supposed to be involved in a meeting to discuss ideas for upcoming Dungeons & Dragons content. Villeneuve will have her art featured on the cover of the upcoming Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica publication, and Steinbaur and Lunter have both contributed to previous D&D and Magic: The Gathering publications.

According to the reports, the three artists were detained for violating their ESTA visa waivers, an automated system that determines whether a person can travel to the United States without a visa. After six hours of being detained at the airport, the artists were handcuffed and taken to an ICE detention center where they were placed in cells without beds for 11 hours.

The following morning, the group were escorted back to the airport and then placed on flights back to their respective home countries.

As you can imagine, this incident is going over swimmingly on Twitter at the moment.  I wonder what, if any, impact it will have on the Ravnica book.

It is likely a combination of two factors

1) In most countries you can not work using the visa program that most easy to use. For example the US Visa Waiver Program. You can come and do business as long as it not work. For example to negotiate a sale, do service on a machine. There are exception but you need to make sure your passport is reflect the exception one is using.

2) If it is #1 then they are in the United State without a valid Visa. In this case deportation procedures take over.

It could be some other violation in which case the above is not relevant.

As for #1 this been around for a long time and not limited to the United. I have to deal with this when doing service work in Canada. They are just as anal as the United States on business versus work.  In short you need to make sure you have the right paperwork in hand when you are going to a country for specific business/work reason. You can get into countries to do work but it a distinctly different path and a different set of documentation.

As for #2 is this a result of the rabid Know-Nothingism of the current administration and their insistence on apply regulations meant to deal with possible felons or terrorist to everybody who in violation of a immigration regulation.

It never pleasant to deal with immigration authorities even when they are being polite. I had to endure on an fifteen lecture once by an Canadian immigration authority on why it was important that working Canadians get jobs first. Without knowing more it looks like a Visa snafu but made infinitely worse by the current policy of treating all immigration violations as a five alarm fire.

It looks like the solution is for Wizards to arrange for the correct Visas. Which will take time. Even before the current administration if Wizards wasn't having their outside staff come in with the right documentation they would have been deported. Wizards should have made sure this was OK. However with the level of traffic for custom to deal with it doesn't surprise me that it wasn't an issue until now.

Quote from: estar;1054395As for #2 is this a result of the rabid Know-Nothingism of the current administration and their insistence on apply regulations meant to deal with possible felons or terrorist to everybody who in violation of a immigration regulation.

This sort of nonsense needs to stay out of the general board. Seriously.

All I know is that this incident is going to generate a colossal internet shitstorm on both sides.

I'll grab the popcorn, this is gonna be good....

If they were in violation and here illegly they need to be deported. The law hasn't changed for decades. Nothing much to discuss. We either obey and enforce pur laws or we dont.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1054399All I know is that this incident is going to generate a colossal internet shitstorm on both sides.

I'll grab the popcorn, this is gonna be good....

And now I wonder if the whole incident was a set-up, and the artists either volunteered, or were "volunteered", in order to stir up controversy and garner publicity.

Why does an artist even need to travel?  Isn't that what Skype and email is for?  Maybe if it was a launch party or something but then you just list "personal" on your reason.

Quote from: KingCheops;1054402Why does an artist even need to travel?  Isn't that what Skype and email is for?  Maybe if it was a launch party or something but then you just list "personal" on your reason.

Yeah, I was wondering this?  They apparently even come from countries with better internet than America, so why did they have to come to the U.S?

We have PLENTY of artists in the USA so WotC can hire them.

Also, many of these US citizen artists are POC, QWOC, and BBQ flavored!! WotC should be so excited!

BTW, I live in LA. We have LOADS of Evil Honkey EUROS who overstay their Visas by years. When I say I am against illegal aliens, I mean ALL OF THEM.

But most importantly for every day in every way, FUCK WOTC.

Could be they were called in to do photo shoots or for a group conference that cant be done via net.

But it seems rather odd that they were detained at all? Who notified officials these specific three people were inbound and doing something illegal? Seems a little suspicious based off what little is known so far.

Quote from: CHRISTIAN HOFFER @comicbook.comAfter six hours of being detained at the airport, the artists were handcuffed and taken to an ICE detention center where they were placed in cells without beds for 11 hours.

This is almost identical, including time periods, to what happened to me when trying to fly from the U.S. into England, where no prior visa is (or at least was, at the time I traveled) required.

Quote from: Omega;1054405Could be they were called in to do photo shoots or for a group conference that cant be done via net.

But it seems rather odd that they were detained at all? Who notified officials these specific three people were inbound and doing something illegal? Seems a little suspicious based off what little is known so far.

It could be that Wizards filed paperwork with custom letting them know that they were coming through.

The problem is that with going overseas from any country to any other country is that the regulations governing the difference between business and work is not hard and fast. From the mid 90s to around 2003ish, my company had no issue crossing over the Canada to do service work on our metal cutting machines. Likewise for people coming to the US that we had a business relationship with. We got updates occasionally and updated our documentation procedures and so on. Then in 2003 we had a rash bunch of people turned away on both sides of the borders. It took a month of back and forth and it turned out it was the wording on one of purchase orders that customs told we had to have. We changed it to the specifics they wanted and went back to normal. The purpose of the paperwork is to demonstrate in sufficient detail that you are there on business.

A note if you are found lying like in saying I am here for tourist but really business. Then likely you will be permanently barred.

So everybody likely thought they were doing what was right and legal but then it turns some custom official intrepets it differently. It get entered the system. So now they are rejecting you automatically unless you can PROVE that you have everything proper. Then you do through the process until things are back to normal.

So if you are a gaming publisher, author, artist going anywhere oversea on business. Get a letter from the other party on their LETTERHEAD stating the purpose. See your country's custom/state department go to the other country's consulate. Make sure you have every bit of paperwork they require AND suggest. And remember no country wants you to let you in to WORK unless you have a specific visa for that. Business generally yes work no.

And keep in mind the anal retentive nature of this is NOT new and NOT unique to the United State. The only thing new is point #2 I made in my initial post.

No matter if this was a deliberate set-up or not, the SJW faction at WotC will be having field day with this.

Very sad to see the anti-immigrant/anti illegal alien sentiment now comes across in main forum threads.

Quote from: jeff37923;1054410No matter if this was a deliberate set-up or not, the SJW faction at WotC will be having field day with this.

Don't know the specifics of this case, and so haven't formed an opinion on it yet. But this is a topic that extends beyond SJW circles. Lots and lots of moderate people are concerned about the aggressive actions being taken on the immigration front by this administration and feel it is xenophobic.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054413Very sad to see the anti-immigrant/anti illegal alien sentiment now comes across in main forum threads.

How is this about immigration and alienship? It was a visitor entry, not an immigration incident. Different issues entirely. Nobody was trying to emigrate anywhere, and no new law or policy was in effect regarding a VISA entry. It's the same procedure my friend from England experienced when she messed up here VISA when visiting the U.S. over 20 years ago, and was sent back to England on a plane as a child without her parents.  Which is scary, but it was because her dad had attempted to skirt an entry fee on her VISA.

My guess is they had a tourist VISA and tried to come here for a work meeting and therefore had attempted to enter using the wrong VISA. Same kind of issue anyone could encounter in almost any nation they visit - you do need the right VISA to visit other nations if it's a VISA- requiring nation.

Well, I couldn't give two shits, but since it's here, my first thought is "What am I not being told?"

QuoteThe artists were likely detained because ICE determined that they were in the country for paid work, which violates the terms of the ESTA visa waiver. While waiver recipients can have business meetings, they cannot be paid for any work done at the meeting. ComicBook.com reached out to Wizards for clarification on whether the artists were being paid to attend the meetings, but they declined to comment as of press time.

There you have it. Now, it's going to get politicised, and everyone will make hay while the sun shines. Whoopie.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054413Very sad to see the anti-immigrant/anti illegal alien sentiment now comes across in main forum threads.

Uh? Where? This thread has been mostly us wondering the how and why of it or commenting on some of the mechanics of why it may have happened as Estar did?

If you mean offsite then what else is new?

Quote from: Omega;1054421Uh? Where? This thread has been mostly us wondering the how and why of it or commenting on some of the mechanics of why it may have happened as Estar did?

If you mean offsite then what else is new?

Posts like this one:

Quote from: Spinachcat;1054404We have PLENTY of artists in the USA so WotC can hire them.

Also, many of these US citizen artists are POC, QWOC, and BBQ flavored!! WotC should be so excited!

BTW, I live in LA. We have LOADS of Evil Honkey EUROS who overstay their Visas by years. When I say I am against illegal aliens, I mean ALL OF THEM.

But most importantly for every day in every way, FUCK WOTC.

There is enough of this in the subforum. Increasingly not seeing the point of posting here.

Quote from: Mistwell;1054417How is this about immigration and alienship? It was a visitor entry, not an immigration incident. Different issues entirely. Nobody was trying to emigrate anywhere, and no new law or policy was in effect regarding a VISA entry. It's the same procedure my friend from England experienced when she messed up here VISA when visiting the U.S. over 20 years ago, and was sent back to England on a plane as a child without her parents.  Which is scary, but it was because her dad had attempted to skirt an entry fee on her VISA.

My guess is they had a tourist VISA and tried to come here for a work meeting and therefore had attempted to enter using the wrong VISA. Same kind of issue anyone could encounter in almost any nation they visit - you do need the right VISA to visit other nations if it's a VISA- requiring nation.

I think anti-immigrant and anti-illegal alien sentiment can span from people seeking to live here permanently and to people just coming to visit or study. I know a lot of people who come into the US on various visas, and what I am hearing troubles me. I don't think this is the place to debate it, and I can't really weigh in on this particular case because I just haven't looked into the details, but I do think there is a troubling shift going on under this administration and the way they are treating people, how frequently this stuff is coming up, seems quite different, and much more aggressive. And I think the way ICE itself has been acting, has changed radically.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1054404When I say I am against illegal aliens, I mean ALL OF THEM.

We Canuckleheads are the biggest offenders.  Lying to get across in both directions is something of an art form up here.

Quote from: Omega;1054405Could be they were called in to do photo shoots or for a group conference that cant be done via net.

But it seems rather odd that they were detained at all? Who notified officials these specific three people were inbound and doing something illegal? Seems a little suspicious based off what little is known so far.

WotC is really at fault here for not helping them get set up.  When I was working for the local baseball team this was always a HUGE deal for us to help the parent club make sure everyone is set up properly and ready to go.  There were always problems which required a staffer to drive a player(s) to the border and then back across.

What tipped ICE off was probably honesty.  The customs official probably asked them what they were there for, the visitors gave an honest answer, and got nailed for not having their stuff in order.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054413Very sad to see the anti-immigrant/anti illegal alien sentiment now comes across in main forum threads.

But hardly surprising, is it?

jg

Quote from: KingCheops;1054425WotC is really at fault here for not helping them get set up.  When I was working for the local baseball team this was always a HUGE deal for us to help the parent club make sure everyone is set up properly and ready to go.  There were always problems which required a staffer to drive a player(s) to the border and then back across.

What tipped ICE off was probably honesty.  The customs official probably asked them what they were there for, the visitors gave an honest answer, and got nailed for not having their stuff in order.

Canadian politeness backfires!

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054414Don't know the specifics of this case, and so haven't formed an opinion on it yet. But this is a topic that extends beyond SJW circles. Lots and lots of moderate people are concerned about the aggressive actions being taken on the immigration front by this administration and feel it is xenophobic.

Are you really a "moderate" if you think enforcing the law is "xenophobic"? For that matter, are you even a moderate if you feel that "xenophobia" plays a role at all in immigration controls, and not a myriad of economic and practical matters.

But sadly, that seems to be the case. Unless you are for completely open borders, you're at best "xenophobic", at worst racist, etc.

Quote from: JeremyR;1054429Are you really a "moderate" if you think enforcing the law is "xenophobic"? For that matter, are you even a moderate if you feel that "xenophobia" plays a role at all in immigration controls, and not a myriad of economic and practical matters.

But sadly, that seems to be the case. Unless you are for completely open borders, you're at best "xenophobic", at worst racist, etc.

Not going to comment further as I don't want to make the issue I was complaining about worse. But you are putting words in my mouth.

Nothing new here at all. Since the late 90s, I have dealt with companies that don't take customs seriously. If anything smells like it is for work and you are traveling on a tourist visa, they are going to ask more questions, and some of them might be tricky. In the case of an artist, they could have been asked if they might 'sketch up' a design for their client during a meeting - and suddenly, it becomes 'work'. Same thing for other fields.

I had a bit of a prick for a client in the 90s from the UK that had permanent residency in the USA. They spent a whole lot of money bringing three buddy engineers from England to the USA, but told them to come on a tourist visa because the time would be relatively short. I told them they were at high risk of being sent back on the next plane...and that is exactly what happened.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054413Very sad to see the anti-immigrant/anti illegal alien sentiment now comes across in main forum threads.

Very sad to see illegal immigration being lumped in with legal immigration in a thread about invalid visas. But lefties.... I mean centraist.... whatcha going to do?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054413Very sad to see the anti-immigrant/anti illegal alien sentiment now comes across in main forum threads.

Even more sad to see the hypocrisy of the no-politics.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1054440Even more sad to see the hypocrisy of the no-politics.

I am all for there being a hard "no politics" in the main forum. But hard not to comment when political opinions you strongly disagree with are making their way into the gaming section of the forum. I've been avoiding the subforum for that reason and trying to stick to RPG topics when I do post.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054423I think anti-immigrant and anti-illegal alien sentiment can span from people seeking to live here permanently and to people just coming to visit or study. I know a lot of people who come into the US on various visas, and what I am hearing troubles me. I don't think this is the place to debate it, and I can't really weigh in on this particular case because I just haven't looked into the details, but I do think there is a troubling shift going on under this administration and the way they are treating people, how frequently this stuff is coming up, seems quite different, and much more aggressive. And I think the way ICE itself has been acting, has changed radically.

You know, you were the one to turn the conversation on to this subject matter of anti-immigrant and anti-illegal alien xenophobia........

Quote from: jeff37923;1054442You know, you were the one to turn the conversation on to this subject matter of anti-immigrant and anti-illegal alien xenophobia........

Nope that my fault see my snarky remarks in regards to Point #2.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054441I am all for there being a hard "no politics" in the main forum. But hard not to comment when political opinions you strongly disagree with are making their way into the gaming section of the forum. I've been avoiding the subforum for that reason and trying to stick to RPG topics when I do post.

Fought that battle lost and resigned as moderator. As long as it gaming related it fair game for here.

One Question......:

What the Eff does it have to do with Role Playing Games??

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;1054450One Question......:

What the Eff does it have to do with Role Playing Games??

- Ed C.

Artists who work in the industry and heading to Wizards to consult on a project. Look I don't care for it being here either. But if it going to be discussed might as well have some accurate information.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054413Very sad to see the anti-immigrant/anti illegal alien sentiment now comes across in main forum threads.

Immigrants and illegal aliens,are very different cases. Don't lump them together, only the desperate left does that.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054414Don't know the specifics of this case, and so haven't formed an opinion on it yet. But this is a topic that extends beyond SJW circles. Lots and lots of moderate people are concerned about the aggressive actions being taken on the immigration front by this administration and feel it is xenophobic.

They can feel any way they want. The facts would dispute it. Same laws in effect for several administrations, laws passed by the ones now crying the loudest.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1054404We have PLENTY of artists in the USA so WotC can hire them.

Also, many of these US citizen artists are POC, QWOC, and BBQ flavored!! WotC should be so excited!

BTW, I live in LA. We have LOADS of Evil Honkey EUROS who overstay their Visas by years. When I say I am against illegal aliens, I mean ALL OF THEM.

But most importantly for every day in every way, FUCK WOTC.

Give in to your anger!

Immigration politics aside.. did Erol Otus, Larry Elmore, and the rest of the RPG artists already in the U.S. go into hiding?

Dragon Con is this weekend and I have met Larry Elmore there several times. Perhaps I could pass him a note that there is an artist shortage in the industry.

What about that Dyson Delves dude, are his papers on the up and up? WOTC could use some map help too.

 I like 5E but have not been inspired by any of the art in this edition; so I'm not going to fret about their art cabal being broken up.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/artists-heading-to-dungeons-dragons-session-say-ice-d-1828660343/amp

Maybe a little more info.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054413Very sad to see the anti-immigrant/anti illegal alien sentiment now comes across in main forum threads.

So you're OK with people lying to get into a country, bypassing all the checks and balances that the LEGAL immigrants willingly follow, which takes years.  So cheating is OK to you?  That's very telling.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1054474So you're OK with people lying to get into a country, bypassing all the checks and balances that the LEGAL immigrants willingly follow, which takes years.  So cheating is OK to you?  That's very telling.

That is not the case of the three artists.

Quote from: estar;1054477That is not the case of the three artists.

Fair point, but they didn't have the proper paperwork, so it appears they were treated in a manner that seems consistent with the organization's guidelines.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1054457Give in to your anger!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2835[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1054474So you're OK with people lying to get into a country, bypassing all the checks and balances that the LEGAL immigrants willingly follow, which takes years.  So cheating is OK to you?  That's very telling.

Again, folks are putting words in my mouth. That is a straw man. Not going to add anything further to the discussion.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054501Again, folks are putting words in my mouth. That is a straw man. Not going to add anything further to the discussion.

A little too late for you in that regard, especially since your behavior has proven my point of, "SJW factions having a field day with this".

This place has drifted in a decidedly 'angry, authoritarian boot licker' direction over the last year or two. It's like a constant stream of loathing for 'SJW's' and cackling delight every time someone gets thrown in hand cuffs and subjected to brutal deprivation by a person in a uniform.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1054478Fair point, but they didn't have the proper paperwork, so it appears they were treated in a manner that seems consistent with the organization's guidelines.

That's not actually clear at this point. We know they were here to attend a meeting. We know that they come from countries that don't require visas to attend business meetings unless they are being paid for the meeting. From the facts available to me, I haven't seen it reported if they were or were not going to be paid. There simply isn't enough information to know what happened here. Maybe the artists screwed up. Maybe WotC screwed up. Maybe ICE screwed up.  All of these seem entirely plausible, so I don't know why everyone is in such a hurry to make up their mind.

As one of the artists in this case said, "Please don't point fingers. It's a very complicated situation and we are figuring out what exactly went wrong and why."

Quote from: Larsdangly;1054512This place has drifted in a decidedly 'angry, authoritarian boot licker' direction over the last year or two. It's like a constant stream of loathing for 'SJW's' and cackling delight every time someone gets thrown in hand cuffs and subjected to brutal deprivation by a person in a uniform.

Yes because this place is worse than ever. Go to rpg.net why don't you. Where they was serious talk of bann2ong users who were pro-republican. Let me guess though it's ok though because your a dan of that forum.  Even more how dare posters have a mind of their iwn and not ne mondless sheep who follow the rest of the herd.

To the op i don't think they should have been detained imo. Wotc though is at fault in that they should have made sure the artist paperwork to enter the country was in order.

From what I understand, business meetings without compensation are fine, and it can fall into a grey area easily if I understand correctly. ICE can have issues with grey areas, ran into that when coming back with my family and Mother-in-Law from Malaysia earlier this year.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1054478Fair point, but they didn't have the proper paperwork,

See my reply in post #12 (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?39468-Three-D-amp-D-Artists-Detained-by-ICE&p=1054408&viewfull=1#post1054408).

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1054478so it appears they were treated in a manner that seems consistent with the organization's guidelines.

Guidelines that were changed in relations to what done a few months ago for those denied entry on the basis of doing work on a business related visa. Therein lies the issue.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1054512This place has drifted in a decidedly 'angry, authoritarian boot licker' direction over the last year or two. It's like a constant stream of loathing for 'SJW's' and cackling delight every time someone gets thrown in hand cuffs and subjected to brutal deprivation by a person in a uniform.

"brutal deprivation", give me a break. They were detained for 11 hours in a place with no beds. That's every airline commuter's situation when a plane is delayed. It's not like they were sent to the gulag and shot in the head.

I help run an animation convention, and we manage to consult with attorneys to make sure that the animation industry professionals from other countries we're paying to attend as guests and speakers enter with the proper Visas. That WotC failed to do so, or did so and got bad advice, is on them. As a company, making sure that Visas for people you're bringing in are in order is not a concern that materialized in 2016 - it's been a necessary concern and expense as long as I've been in the business.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1054532That's every airline commuter's situation when a plane is delayed.

In handcuffs, and confined to cells for the duration. Somehow I am thinking one thing != the other.

Quote from: estar;1054535In handcuffs, and confined to cells for the duration. Somehow I am thinking one thing != the other.

Hey, they got hygiene items! It's always a joy when the airlines force you to check your carry-on bag (at increased cost) and then delay you overnight...

Quote from: estar;1054535In handcuffs, and confined to cells for the duration. Somehow I am thinking one thing != the other.

So do you think that Brutal Deprivation is an accurate description of being handcuffed and detained?

Quote from: Apparition;1054389Three Dungeons & Dragons artists hired by WotC were detained by ICE (https://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/08/29/dungeons-and-dragons-artists-ice/) in Seattle and then later denied entry to the U.S.



As you can imagine, this incident is going over swimmingly on Twitter at the moment.  I wonder what, if any, impact it will have on the Ravnica book.

Just some random Democrats. Who cares.

Quote from: estar;1054535In handcuffs, and confined to cells for the duration. Somehow I am thinking one thing != the other.

Let's not get silly by implying that they were in handcuffs for 11 hours. They were handcuffed, then then taken to a cell. Cops don't leave people in cuffs inside a cell.

They were "without beds" for 11 hours. Whether or not you think that qualifies as "brutal deprivation" I'll leave to each to decide for themselves.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1054537So do you think that Brutal Deprivation is an accurate description of being handcuffed and detained?

I was replying to you asserting that being confined to a ICE detention center was equivalent to waiting in a airport for 11 hours. An assertion I deagree with. I didn't bother including or addressing the part about Brutal Deprivation. I stated how I felt about it and why. See my response to #2 in the second post of this thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?39468-Three-D-amp-D-Artists-Detained-by-ICE&p=1054395&viewfull=1#post1054395).

Quote from: estar;1054546I was replying to you asserting that being confined to a ICE detention center was equivalent to waiting in a airport for 11 hours. An assertion I deagree with. I didn't bother including or addressing the part about Brutal Deprivation. I stated how I felt about it and why. See my response to #2 in the second post of this thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?39468-Three-D-amp-D-Artists-Detained-by-ICE&p=1054395&viewfull=1#post1054395).

Fair enough. I was comparing the length of the detainment and the lack of beds to the common scenario that delayed flights create. Of course the hypothetical airline commuters are not handcuffed or restricted from leaving because they are not being investigated for possible ESTA Visa waiver violation.

And I certainly do not consider any of these scenarios "Brutal deprivation".

Quote from: Zalman;1054539Let's not get silly by implying that they were in handcuffs for 11 hours. They were handcuffed, then then taken to a cell. Cops don't leave people in cuffs inside a cell.

I was being terse, in my previous posts I stated some of the fact enough to establish that I am aware of what been reported including the fact they were only handcuffed to and from the cells.

Quote from: Zalman;1054539They were "without beds" for 11 hours. Whether or not you think that qualifies as "brutal deprivation" I'll leave to each to decide for themselves.

I disagreed the with the assertion that being handcuffed while being taken to and from a ICE Detention Center and confined in a cell for 11 hours is the equivalent of having to stay in a airport lounge 11 hours Both are uncomfortable and annoying however the former i.e ICE detention Center, is a more serious situation than sitting around airport lounge waiting for a flight.

One time when I went to China, there was a problem with my paperwork and I was detained for 7 hours (after a 26 hour flight/connections). Much like with WotC, the company which hired me screwed up.

I'm not prone to hating on WotC, but yeah, this is their mess, they screwed up, and that's really all this is, politics is irrelevant to this particular matter.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1054537So do you think that Brutal Deprivation is an accurate description of being handcuffed and detained?

TDS is real.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054432Not going to comment further as I don't want to make the issue I was complaining about worse. But you are putting words in my mouth.

Ahh, the irony. Complains about someone "putting words in my mouth" after first posting in this thread with, "Very sad to see the anti-immigrant/anti illegal alien sentiment now comes across in main forum threads. (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?39468-Three-D-amp-D-Artists-Detained-by-ICE&p=1054413&viewfull=1#post1054413)"

I am looking for a violin to play for you.

Deprivation is bullshit.  Physically they were better off than someone laid over at the airport.

There is a legitimate case for mental anguish.  Being led out of the airport (no mention if it was in front of other travellers) in handcuffs and detained in a cell.  I would be pretty scared and in a state of panic if in the same situation.  Call me soft or a soy boy if you will but that's a legit scary situation.

In terms of how they got caught it was again probably a case of:

"Why are you here?"
"We have a business meeting at WotC."
"Are you getting paid to be here?"
"Yes."
"Okay you're here on a tourist visa which doesn't let you get paid for business meetings which means you are under arrest."

Quote from: estar;1054549I was being terse,

Indeed.

QuoteI disagreed the with the assertion that being handcuffed while being taken to and from a ICE Detention Center and confined in a cell for 11 hours is the equivalent of having to stay in a airport lounge 11 hours Both are uncomfortable and annoying however the former i.e ICE detention Center, is a more serious situation than sitting around airport lounge waiting for a flight.

Yes, the difference is that the artists in question were being investigated for a  possible ESTA Visa waiver violation. It's not the exact equivalent, but the 11 hour stay and lack of beds are not a condition of brutal deprivation. But then, I was being terse.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1054548Fair enough. I was comparing the length of the detainment and the lack of beds to the common scenario that delayed flights create. Of course the hypothetical airline commuters are not handcuffed or restricted from leaving because they are not being investigated for possible ESTA Visa waiver violation.

And I certainly do not consider any of these scenarios "Brutal deprivation".

In my experience people don't respond well to being handcuffed and taken to a cell. Along with being subjected to a lengthy interrogation and being derived of their possessions and means of communication given the nature of the inciting incident which is a currently appears to be a paperwork problem.

Never fuck with visas. As a child growing up overseas FIRST thing I was taught: your country's constitution does not travel with you, your country can't (or won't) protect you now; mind your 'p's and 'q's. Never lie, cheat, or fart outside command while in customs.

And I know what it's like ending up in a 12 hour layover in Jordan during Ramadan at day, as a child. Locked in, none but emergency lights, no AC, all shops closed, water fountains and sinks turned off. Dad had to walk the length of the airport for hours to find one lone janitor who was kind enough to provide a small paper cup of water for thirsty little me. One cup, too, lest he be in trouble. We slept on the side of one of the airport planters/public seats in the shaded half-light, thirsty. And this was one of the better countries airports I've been in...

Heard horror stories of Korean ancestry men who were immediately detained and shuffled off to boot camp because they are considered citizens by blood, and were shirking their duty by not registering for mandatory 2 year service. Does not matter if they were citizens of another country, never born there, and only attending for grandma's funeral -- stop being a deserter and get into the military. Only way to avoid it was to renounce citizenship before entry, customs and visa. Bring your 17 yr old Korean ancestry son born from Argentina and forgot to have him renounce Korean citizenship? Fuck you, he is considered one year older (you are born as 1 year old, so your age is one older) and thus eligible for service, thanks for bringing him in, he will miss his grandma's funeral. Too bad, no you don't get to see him. Please don't overstay your 90 day tourist visa. Goodbye.

No. Never fuck around with visas and customs. Not even once. There are far greater hells than most comfortable Westerners can imagine... :eek:

Quote from: Opaopajr;1054562No. Never fuck around with visas and customs. Not even once. There are far greater hells than most comfortable Westerners can imagine... :eek:

I can only imagine, but I certainly don't take my situation here in America for granted. :)

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1054564I can only imagine, but I certainly don't take my situation here in America for granted. :)

And those examples are from the more lawful, peaceable, and ordered countries... The veneer of civilization is THIN. :eek: It can and does get much, much worse.

Quote from: sureshot;1054516Yes because this place is worse than ever. Go to rpg.net why don't you. Where they was serious talk of bann2ong users who were pro-republican. Let me guess though it's ok though because your a dan of that forum.  Even more how dare posters have a mind of their iwn and not ne mondless sheep who follow the rest of the herd.

I like making fun of rpg.net as much as the next person, but at the moment their tabletop open forum is a lot better than this one. This place has had multiple political threads going on the first page for months now, whereas you can visit rpg.net Open without encountering anything like that. They'll ban you if you call someone an asshole (by the way: you are an asshole!). And I'm sure you can find febrile political threads in some sub forum or another. But this place has let the infection spread throughout the host's body, and is now almost overrun. It's as shame, because it was a pretty cool place a couple of years ago. No more.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1054571I like making fun of rpg.net as much as the next person, but at the moment their tabletop open forum is a lot better than this one. This place has had multiple political threads going on the first page for months now, whereas you can visit rpg.net Open without encountering anything like that. They'll ban you if you call someone an asshole (by the way: you are an asshole!). And I'm sure you can find febrile political threads in some sub forum or another. But this place has let the infection spread throughout the host's body, and is now almost overrun. It's as shame, because it was a pretty cool place a couple of years ago. No more.

Yeah, it's not like theRPGSite had a "Fuck ICE" like pin on ever single fucking page of the forum for weeks... yep, RPG.Net the place for lack of politics. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Larsdangly;1054571I like making fun of rpg.net as much as the next person, but at the moment their tabletop open forum is a lot better than this one. .

He'll be here all week. Try the veal.

Quote from: estar;1054561In my experience people don't respond well to being handcuffed and taken to a cell. Along with being subjected to a lengthy interrogation and being derived of their possessions and means of communication given the nature of the inciting incident which is a currently appears to be a paperwork problem.

I am sure they had similar experiences to anyone who has been to Gitmo!

After reading this stupid thread, I'm reminded why I took a several year hiatus. Welp, adios again.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1054572Yeah, it's not like theRPGSite had a "Fuck ICE" like pin on ever single fucking page of the forum for weeks... yep, RPG.Net the place for lack of politics. :rolleyes:

Holy shit, yes, this! Man, I couldn't believe that. What's next? No personal attacks allowed unless it's white, straight, Christian, Republican, pro-Trump, cis-gendered men who eat Papa John's? The mind and heart are there, luckily the spine isn't. Yet.

Yep, and the narrative being suggested of course is that somehow ICE, Trump, and racism are to blame.

Meanwhile, these three White Europeans weren't even denied entry by ICE -- U.S. Customs did that. ICE was tasked with overnight detention because there were no flights back until morning. This is pretty typical when being denied entry to a foreign country.

Expanded Story (https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2018/08/wotc-contracted-artists-anna-steinbauer-magali-villeneuve-and-titus-lunter-detained-by-ice-in-seattle/)

Quote from: Zalman;1054588Yep, and the narrative being suggested of course is that somehow ICE, Trump, and racism are to blame.

Meanwhile, these three White Europeans weren't even denied entry by ICE -- U.S. Customs did that. ICE was tasked with overnight detention because there were no flights back until morning. This is pretty typical when being denied entry to a foreign country.

Expanded Story (https://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2018/08/wotc-contracted-artists-anna-steinbauer-magali-villeneuve-and-titus-lunter-detained-by-ice-in-seattle/)

Facts and TDS should not be mixed.

Quote from: Zalman;1054588Yep, and the narrative being suggested of course is that somehow ICE, Trump, and racism are to blame.

Why let a slow news day story go to waste when you can turn it into a controversy? It is the leftist way.

Quote from: Koltar;1054450One Question......:

What the Eff does it have to do with Role Playing Games??

- Ed C.

The government is doing playtest for the PARANOIA: Live Action Role-Playing Game.

JG

Quote from: Brad;1054578After reading this stupid thread, I'm reminded why I took a several year hiatus. Welp, adios again.

Wimp.....
Were you cyber stalked across two gaming forums as well?

- Ed C.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1054571I like making fun of rpg.net as much as the next person, but at the moment their tabletop open forum is a lot better than this one. This place has had multiple political threads going on the first page for months now, whereas you can visit rpg.net Open without encountering anything like that. They'll ban you if you call someone an asshole (by the way: you are an asshole!). And I'm sure you can find febrile political threads in some sub forum or another. But this place has let the infection spread throughout the host's body, and is now almost overrun. It's as shame, because it was a pretty cool place a couple of years ago. No more.

Well call me what you want. At least I'm not a hypocrite who views their favored websites through rose colored glasses. I rather be a asshole than a boot licking hypocrite. As Ras has pointed out rpg.net is really not political except for that "FucK ICE" pin on every page for weeks. Unless your living in a fantasy world that place is 1000 times worse than here. Try saying what you said to me to one of their favored site darlings or worse a mod and see how far that gets you. Then again your probably afraid they will ban you for offsite behavior for daring to criticize them so better to trash this place then be banned from there.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1054572Yeah, it's not like theRPGSite had a "Fuck ICE" like pin on ever single fucking page of the forum for weeks... yep, RPG.Net the place for lack of politics. :rolleyes:

Careful don't let facts get in the way of his outrage at this site.

Quote from: KingCheops;1054425What tipped ICE off was probably honesty.  The customs official probably asked them what they were there for, the visitors gave an honest answer, and got nailed for not having their stuff in order.

Thinking on it I have a feeling you are probably right on that.

Firstly, this really should have been in Pundit's forum.

Secondly, the US Customs agency and ICE have been doing this for decades. Wether or not that's a good thing or not is debatable, but debatable elsewhere. However, if this has only become a problem for you since Nov 2016, I suggest a long hard look in the mirror and perhaps a reassessment of one's priorities.

Quote from: KingCheops;1054425What tipped ICE off was probably honesty.  The customs official probably asked them what they were there for, the visitors gave an honest answer, and got nailed for not having their stuff in order.

Quote from: Omega;1054617Thinking on it I have a feeling you are probably right on that.

Isn't it interesting that ICE, the current lefty cause du jour, is getting the heat on this issue when it was U.S. Customs that stopped and denied their entry. It's funny how the narrative is more important than the facts.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1054537So do you think that Brutal Deprivation is an accurate description of being handcuffed and detained?

Sounds like a decent Saturday to me...

...Ahem.

I'll leave now.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1054618Firstly, this really should have been in Pundit's forum.

Secondly, the US Customs agency and ICE have been doing this for decades. Wether or not that's a good thing or not is debatable, but debatable elsewhere. However, if this has only become a problem for you since Nov 2016, I suggest a long hard look in the mirror and perhaps a reassessment of one's priorities.

Well that is part of the eternal problem. Alot of things people now-a-days get in an uproar about turn out to be fairly common and/or been a thing for sometimes decades.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1054622Isn't it interesting that ICE, the current lefty cause du jour, is getting the heat on this issue when it was U.S. Customs that stopped and denied their entry. It's funny how the narrative is more important than the facts.

I was referring to the point that the three likely just said why they were there unaware they were there under the wrong visa.

But nice spin doctoring there to suit your own agenda.

I remember when this site was about RPGs...

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1054441I am all for there being a hard "no politics" in the main forum.

100% agree. I've supported "no politics in the main" repeatedly and while I understand RPGPundit's feeling that "Politics in RPGs" must be in the main forum, I wish he'd change his mind. But it's his site and he's made it clear its an important stance for him.  And since we live in the "everything is political" era, then we're gonna see more online nonsense and offline wankery.

But since Pundy declared the main forum is a mosh pit, I'm gonna mosh for maximum LOLZ! Cause this shit is hysterical.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1054548And I certainly do not consider any of these scenarios "Brutal deprivation".

Everybody needs to STFU about brutal deprivation. I once went 72 days without a French press or a waterbed.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1054566The veneer of civilization is THIN. :eek:

People who haven't traveled outside of the West don't understand this. Everywhere is not Mainstreet USA.

As you said so well, our constitution does NOT travel with us.

Quote from: James Gillen;1054601The government is doing playtest for the PARANOIA: Live Action Role-Playing Game.

No wonder I'm having so much fun!

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1054635I remember when this site was about RPGs...

So do I, but then 'they' came in, and took over TBP and everything became political, whether or not we liked it.

So having an anti ILLEGAL ALIEN sentiment is now something to be shamed/feel bad for?  Come on now, are we being serious?

Quote from: oggsmash;1054662So having an anti ILLEGAL ALIEN sentiment is now something to be shamed/feel bad for?  Come on now, are we being serious?

Deadly serious, in the way that only an adolescent mentality can be.

I actually received a thread warning for posting in one of Pundit's video threads that it should have been in his forum instead of general.  I've kept my mouth shut about it since then.

A couple teammates and I were almost denied entry to the US back in 1999 (pre-9/11) while driving down to Seattle because we were honest about our reason for going.  The lady didn't know what fencing was (she probably thought we were going down to do work) and when we explained she freaked out thinking we were armed to the teeth.  We had to take out our epees while she kept her hand on her gun and showed her that they have blunt tips and can't do a whole lot of harm.

Quote from: KingCheops;1054675I actually received a thread warning for posting in one of Pundit's video threads that it should have been in his forum instead of general.  I've kept my mouth shut about it since then.

A couple teammates and I were almost denied entry to the US back in 1999 (pre-9/11) while driving down to Seattle because we were honest about our reason for going.  The lady didn't know what fencing was (she probably thought we were going down to do work) and when we explained she freaked out thinking we were armed to the teeth.  We had to take out our epees while she kept her hand on her gun and showed her that they have blunt tips and can't do a whole lot of harm.

I've been pulled for secondary inspection about five times over the years, never been refused entry (yet, insh'Allah). *

But just seeing the agent mark the box that you have to go and stand in the naughty queue is kinda scary.


*The most recent one was because a routine stop coming north from Mexico by land (maybe 1 in 10 cars gets pulled, I dunno).

We sit in an open-door cage area while they check the car.


Thus far, pretty routine. It suddenly got more exciting because my colleague had taken his anti-histamines out of the bottle and put them in a baggie for convenience. So there's a pro-tip, don't do that kids.

Luckily we were very white, very used to this kind of thing, and clearly not drug dealers, not even recreationally.

Still not pleasant.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1054635I remember when this site was about RPGs...

Maybe click on one of the other 30 or so threads on the front page.....

Quote from: Spinachcat;1054639Everybody needs to STFU about brutal deprivation. I once went 72 days without a French press or a waterbed.

How did you survive?
Were you in prison?

Quote from: Omega;1054634I was referring to the point that the three likely just said why they were there unaware they were there under the wrong visa.

But nice spin doctoring there to suit your own agenda.

Pointing out facts, how evil of me!!!!

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1054635I remember when this site was about RPGs...

By my count, there's one, maybe two "political" threads on the front page. So be the change you want to see. Pick a thread and talk with us about the Witcher RPG, or your local RPG scene, or rules and rulings...

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1054691By my count, there's one, maybe two "political" threads on the front page. So be the change you want to see. Pick a thread and talk with us about the Witcher RPG, or your local RPG scene, or rules and rulings...

Agreed. I started a bit about Numenera, which isn't exactly a site darling, but my posts were responded to politely and I enjoyed sharing things. Even if they weren't responded to politely, I wouldn't have to slink away because I was bullied by those in favor of the forum Establishment. I sometimes think RPG Site isn't as welcoming to games as RPG.net but if I'm honest, a lot of the welcoming attitudes on TBP are clearly fake, due to fear of being honest and/or lock-step with that forum's agendas. I have gotten frustrated by Pundit at times, as well as some regulars here (and I've been an ass at times myself), but agree with a friend that while there might not be as many different games discussed or welcomed, this site's certainly better insofar as I don't fret upsetting Big Brother and his mob of cannibals.  

The only thing that I see as jarring in comparison between the sites is that the free speech here can set things off the rails, whereas on TBP it's (largely) contained. But that's not healthy as it's contrived and prevents honest discussion. It's peace by way of jackboots, which isn't OK. Yeah, there are some political rants here where they probably shouldn't be, but isn't a large part of that stemming from the feeling of catharsis? Not to be sarcastic but I find a perverse humor in this site being a truer safe space than RPG.net.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1054635I remember when this site was about RPGs...

I remember when RPGs were about RPGs.

jg

For those of you reading this thread who have experience with hiring artists (foreign or domestic) to create images for your publications, how did you go about finding them? What kinds of things did you look for to match their style to your publication? Once you find them, how do you describe to them what you want and keep their focus similar to yours, while allowing them the artistic freedom to create their best for you?

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1054635I remember when this site was about RPGs...

I remember when RPGs used to be about RPGs.

Unfortunately increasingly we are seeing various agendas creep in. Sometimes just a hint. Sometimes its excessive. But this topic seems not really RPG related other than it involved RPG artists and an RPG company flubbing a visa and its not political as its just customs doing what customs is supposed to do.

Quote from: Mistwell;1054731For those of you reading this thread who have experience with hiring artists (foreign or domestic) to create images for your publications, how did you go about finding them? What kinds of things did you look for to match their style to your publication? Once you find them, how do you describe to them what you want and keep their focus similar to yours, while allowing them the artistic freedom to create their best for you?

For me. I know alot of artists and back in the 90s I hit up alot of conventions and talked to various artists on what their prices were. NeNe Thomas for example was in the several hundreds of dollars per piece, really expensive range and others were up or down from there in cost. Same for line art. Some were really expensive and others were more sanely priced. I learned to avoind anyone who started by saying they wanted to be paid "by the hour". Sorry. No.

Quote from: Mistwell;1054731For those of you reading this thread who have experience with hiring artists (foreign or domestic) to create images for your publications, how did you go about finding them? What kinds of things did you look for to match their style to your publication? Once you find them, how do you describe to them what you want and keep their focus similar to yours, while allowing them the artistic freedom to create their best for you?

Well I can show you
This is a written write up of the pieces I wanted
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1Jog22cOJQ9FwH3Lpyj_X7ClbZxv-07sH

This is the cover template I referred too
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1KxezoOZoOF7ifqHEmGYwq3jkfkE6KLQM

Basically I paint a picture with words, we go back and forth, the artist does a rough pencil, if approved they do the final drawing. One illustration not on the list was a result of the artist reading the initial draft and wanted to draw a picture of a specific moment I written about.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2848[/ATTACH]

That is a cool pic. Did the mage fail his fear check or succeed on his paralysis save?

I've worked on projects with outsourced artists in foreign countries. Language issues can get tricky and as estar said, you paint a picture with words, discuss concepts back and forth and don't give final approval until the rough is what you want. With the internet, there's a glut of artists in heavy competition so you can get good prices if you shop around, but more established talent has the right to demand more. Especially talent with a proven track record of high quality work delivered on time. "On Time" alone is worth paying some extra money.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1054572Yeah, it's not like theRPGSite had a "Fuck ICE" like pin on ever single fucking page of the forum for weeks...

That would be a bit harsh... MERP and RoleMaster were not that bad.

(Was I really the only one reading the thread title and thinking, "wow, good artists are searched after but that Iron Crown has to abduct them from a competing company and put them behind closed doors"... followed by, "this 5e art that I've seen so far is no match for Angus McBride"... followed by, "does Iron Crown even exist anymore?")

Quote from: Spinachcat;1054762That is a cool pic. Did the mage fail his fear check or succeed on his paralysis save?

If the player killed the Demon Wolf, the demonic spirit will emerge from the corpse and possess the body of Arbella the apprentice mage that summoned it in the first place (if in the area). It will then shift into it's natural form and emerge. Thus the image in the post :) This encounter is initiated if the PC visits the Golden House, a conclave of mages in the course of investigating the Demon Wolf attacks. Arbella will happen to overhear the conversation, realize that she was more successful in her ritual than she thought and leave to go complete and bind the demon to her. The PC spot her leaving and sooner or later realize that wasn't a good thing. Then gives chase leading to a confrontation at the original summoning site.

This is partially my fault for not having checked on this thread earlier, but I'm saying it now: this topic is fine as long as it sticks STRICTLY to the topic of this specific incident, and NOT to some kind of larger off-topic debate on immigration or ICE or whatever as a whole.

Sooo. Nearly 2 weeks later. What happened? Im not seeing any followup on this and as usual its been forgotten as people move on to the next whatever.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;1054806"does Iron Crown even exist anymore?")

  The old Iron Crown died in the 90s or early 00s, but there have been a couple of successors since then. The current holders of the rights are producing some HARP and Shadow World material and electronic tools for previous RM versions, but their grand Rolemaster revision seems stuck in Development Purgatory.

Quote from: Omega;1056310Sooo. Nearly 2 weeks later. What happened? Im not seeing any followup on this and as usual its been forgotten as people move on to the next whatever.

It's not like WoTC actually gives a fuck. They didn't give enough of a fuck to do the proper paperwork in the first place.

More likely it just did not occur to anyone involved this would happen. It is still a flub. But it is an oddball one.

Could also be that they were just invited in for a technically non-business photo shoot.  But when asked said it was business. Depends on the chain of events really.

I'd bet someone at the WOTC offices got in trouble and WOTC hopefully had to foot the bill for this goof-up.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1056593It's not like WoTC actually gives a fuck. They didn't give enough of a fuck to do the proper paperwork in the first place.

Quote from: Omega;1056604More likely it just did not occur to anyone involved this would happen. It is still a flub. But it is an oddball one.

Could also be that they were just invited in for a technically non-business photo shoot.  But when asked said it was business. Depends on the chain of events really.

I'd bet someone at the WOTC offices got in trouble and WOTC hopefully had to foot the bill for this goof-up.

Exactly so.

Jim in the art department had a cool idea to invite some folks over for a chat about future projects. He wasn't giving them a private booth for a couple of months to generate output, it wasn't a real job, no need to involve HR.

Foreigners get awesome invite from WOTC to hang out and discuss some future projects. They live in ForeignLand, they already have a job. No need for visas.

Until...

I'm still unclear why their white privilege didn't give them an unfair advantage.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1056770I'm still unclear why their white privilege didn't give them an unfair advantage.

They still have their kids.

Quote from: jeff37923;1054511A little too late for you in that regard, especially since your behavior has proven my point of, "SJW factions having a field day with this".

So you anti-"SJW" chucklefucks are doing the same thing here, but with your backwards orientation, and less banning (except when you successfully troll-bait someone enough to break the site rules).

How about people talk about RPGs, instead.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1054512This place has drifted in a decidedly 'angry, authoritarian boot licker' direction over the last year or two. It's like a constant stream of loathing for 'SJW's' and cackling delight every time someone gets thrown in hand cuffs and subjected to brutal deprivation by a person in a uniform.

Quite.

Quote from: Motorskills;1056826They still have their kids.

Hmm, left the kiddies at home and didn't try to illegally cross the border.

You are a total and complete fucking tard to try and compare the two.

Quote from: Skarg;1056861So you anti-"SJW" chucklefucks are doing the same thing here, but with your backwards orientation, and less banning (except when you successfully troll-bait someone enough to break the site rules).
How about people talk about RPGs, instead.

We do talk about rpgs one just has to make a effort and look at the other topics in this section to see that we do. But why ruin and let go to waste a perfectly good blanket generalization of both this site and those who post. One cal also ignore a thread if one is bothered or not interested in it. It's not hard to do and really easy.

Quote from: Skarg;1056861Quite.

I would not go by what the poster you quoted said. For one he insisted that this was the worst, most controlling, censorship filled rpg forum on the internet. When someone pointed out the "Fuck ICE" topic thread that was on every page of every topic over at rpg.net for the longest time, he/she/Z or whatever their gender ran off with his tail between his legs because if you think this place is the worst you have no fucking clue. Why don't try the same over at other places like Rpg.net and see how it goes.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1056879Hmm, left the kiddies at home and didn't try to illegally cross the border.

You are a total and complete fucking tard to try and compare the two.

Agreed and seconded. Not even remotely the same thing imo. Did the artists not bother doing their own research to see if they could legally cross. Unless someone at WOTC gave them the go ahead they also should have made sure. Then again it seems personal responsibility is a thing of the past.

Quote from: Skarg;1056861So you anti-"SJW" chucklefucks are doing the same thing here, but with your backwards orientation, and less banning (except when you successfully troll-bait someone enough to break the site rules).

No, you are wrong. Here you don't get banned for wrong-think, although you may get mocked for being an idiot or an asshole.

Although I find it amusing that even the people that were detained by customs wanted the SJW faction of WotC fans to put down their torches and pitchforks over this because it wasn't helping them. Of course, you don't mention or even acknowledge that.

Quote from: Skarg;1056861How about people talk about RPGs, instead.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1056879Hmm, left the kiddies at home and didn't try to illegally cross the border.

You are a total and complete fucking tard to try and compare the two.

They did try to illegally cross the border, albeit unintentionally. They failed and got sent home.

And you are delusional if you think the White House would have enacted the border restrictions if the kids from CLA had been blond, white, English-speaking picturebooks.

Quote from: Motorskills;1056906They did try to illegally cross the border, albeit unintentionally. They failed and got sent home.

And you are delusional if you think the White House would have enacted the border restrictions if the kids from CLA had been blond, white, English-speaking picturebooks.

While I have more than a few things I disliked about President Obama, it almost sounds like you think he was racist.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1056770I'm still unclear why their white privilege didn't give them an unfair advantage.

They're Canadian.  White privilege cancels out.

jg

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1056907While I have more than a few things I disliked about President Obama, it almost sounds like you think he was racist.

Those cages were kind cages. He cared. Silly man. ;p

Quote from: James Gillen;1056911They're Canadian.  White privilege cancels out.

jg

One was French I believe.

Quote from: sureshot;1056889I would not go by what the poster you quoted said. For one he insisted that this was the worst, most controlling, censorship filled rpg forum on the internet. When someone pointed out the "Fuck ICE" topic thread that was on every page of every topic over at rpg.net for the longest time, he/she/Z or whatever their gender ran off with his tail between his legs because if you think this place is the worst you have no fucking clue. Why don't try the same over at other places like Rpg.net and see how it goes.

Not in the quote I quoted, he didn't:

QuoteThis place has drifted in a decidedly 'angry, authoritarian boot licker' direction over the last year or two. It's like a constant stream of loathing for 'SJW's' and cackling delight every time someone gets thrown in hand cuffs and subjected to brutal deprivation by a person in a uniform.

Zero there about what you wrote.

I agree rpg.net has ridiculously worse censorship and banning which is off the charts. That doesn't make me interested in watching you folks try to troll people here.

Quote from: jeff37923;1056901No, you are wrong. Here you don't get banned for wrong-think, although you may get mocked for being an idiot or an asshole.

I didn't say people got banned for wrong-think here. Several have left (banned or ragequit or just left) after being driven crazy by trolling, however.

Quote from: jeff37923;1056901Although I find it amusing that even the people that were detained by customs wanted the SJW faction of WotC fans to put down their torches and pitchforks over this because it wasn't helping them. Of course, you don't mention or even acknowledge that.

I've no idea or real desire to know what kick you're on that has you think that's a relevant thing to say about ME. It rather makes sense to me. When foreign police have you in a cell for technical VISA violation, you'd be unwise to want people to be starting riots on your behalf.

Quote from: jeff37923;1056901Pot. Kettle. Black.

Right, because I make one post on this thread, after you and the other chucklefucks have made how many?
How often do I chime in on anything political here?
Oh look, someone's pointing out how annoying this is and disagrees with you - better try to gang up on me!
You guys aren't doing your "position" any favors by behaving this way.


For the sake of actually saying something on topic, as Pundit requested:

Ok, so some game artists ran afoul of US customs, apparently when just coming for a meeting and it sounds like saying the wrong things or something. Gee.
The response involved handcuffs (to prevent any paid art being drawn on the way to the cell?) and keeping them in a cell and flying them back...

Not terribly surprising, given how customs is, and the laws and all that. Ya, they technically broke the law accidentally, and being messed with by customs & immigration can be like that.

And, my opinion is that does suck. In my opinion, it's pretty backwards and foolish and uncivilized to treat international visitors that way for a minor and harmless technical violation like that. It makes US customs and immigration look bad even though they're just following their training, and seems quite pointless and awful to me. I do not see an actual good and necessary reason for it, and I think it has far wider negative consequences and near-zero positive ones.

What I get from the in-favor reactions here has come across to me like, "Yeah they broke the law so they should be handcuffed and put in a cell and deported! Maybe it was an evil liberal plot!" - which strikes me as juvenile and ridiculous and just plain incorrect.

While I agree with you they should not have been put in a cell. They should have made sure all their paperwork was in order. Which you and some other refuse to acknowledge. Then again not surprised. How dare we ask that people act responsibly.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1056879Hmm, left the kiddies at home and didn't try to illegally cross the border.

You are a total and complete fucking tard to try and compare the two.

Motorskills is one of the bleeding-butt Libtards who refused to answer if pedos should be included in the ever-so-precious dipshit manifesto of Pathfinder 2, most likely because they have no defense for the indefensible. Instead, they'll take the usual path of either ignoring or spewing even more ignorance.

Quote from: Motorskills;1056826They still have their kids.

You're a moron. If they had kids with them they would've been taken...like every potential criminal has had done until the process is complete. Your ass must be an amazing place to have your head inside of it so often.

Quote from: Skarg;1056924And, my opinion is that does suck. In my opinion, it's pretty backwards and foolish and uncivilized to treat international visitors that way for a minor and harmless technical violation like that. It makes US customs and immigration look bad even though they're just following their training, and seems quite pointless and awful to me. I do not see an actual good and necessary reason for it, and I think it has far wider negative consequences and near-zero positive ones.

Some ports of entry get a bad reputation, and eventually that gets upstairs and someone says something about it. Then they get a bit more polite about it. But it rarely makes any difference. The business isn't going to leave the USA. Nobody is going to get fired.

People make mistakes, but it looks not much different than more serious stuff, like smuggling or more serious purposeful visa violations. If the customs officer believes the person is being dishonest, then they will be searched, processed and likely deported immediately unless there are some obvious circumstances that can be (very) immediately cleared up. They don't have a lot of options for comfort - it is one size fits all.

This really isn't anything new. I started doing a lot of international business travel during the Clinton years (and still do it) and had some colleagues that did the same. On a few occasions, a spouse will visit, say the worst possible thing at the port of entry, and get put on the next plane. For example, mention 'work' when their visa or green card expressly forbids work, or bags  get opened and something is there that should have been declared.  There are any number of things.

Having that kind of problem at a port of entry is really unpleasant, but typically it comes down to someone saying the wrong thing, and then compounding it with multiple, different stories.

I originally read the title as "Three D&D artists retained by ICE" and thought to myself - Iron Crown Enterprises is leveling up RMU!!

Quote from: Lynn;1056932Some ports of entry get a bad reputation, and eventually that gets upstairs and someone says something about it. Then they get a bit more polite about it. But it rarely makes any difference. The business isn't going to leave the USA. Nobody is going to get fired.

People make mistakes, but it looks not much different than more serious stuff, like smuggling or more serious purposeful visa violations. If the customs officer believes the person is being dishonest, then they will be searched, processed and likely deported immediately unless there are some obvious circumstances that can be (very) immediately cleared up. They don't have a lot of options for comfort - it is one size fits all.

This really isn't anything new. I started doing a lot of international business travel during the Clinton years (and still do it) and had some colleagues that did the same. On a few occasions, a spouse will visit, say the worst possible thing at the port of entry, and get put on the next plane. For example, mention 'work' when their visa or green card expressly forbids work, or bags  get opened and something is there that should have been declared.  There are any number of things.

Having that kind of problem at a port of entry is really unpleasant, but typically it comes down to someone saying the wrong thing, and then compounding it with multiple, different stories.

Sureshot, without more information, it's really hard to judge who screwed up here. For all we know it could have been a manager at WOTC, HR at WOTC, the artists, or even the immigration / secondary inspection guy. As someone who will be going through international immigration three times this week, I can confirm that it is really fraught. I posted a plausible (but not necessarily correct) scenario of what could have happened upthread, but Lynn is just as likely to be correct that it was simply an unfortunate choice of words at the immigration desk - in a foreign language - that landed these guys in trouble.


**

AC: your temper tantrum and infatuation with sexual assault remind me of someone....hmm. Here's your challenge - print out your posts in thread and post them in your workplace, or your university classroom, or your church hall, wherever. Identify yourself as the author. Make the case that you are a mature adult who can be relied upon to provide serious intellectual argument. Because you are sure as hell not going to engage me with that spurious nonsense.

**

Warboss - you were incorrect that the artists didn't attempt to cross the border illegally (at least until they win any appeal they might lodge - unlikely on both counts), just own that. Screwing up border entry doesn't make the artists bad people, nor the people at WOTC, nor the immigration guys. This shit is hard at the best of times and throwing this on Obama is simply mendacious - it was the Trump/Sessions/Miller's enforcement decision - without proper planning or provision, natch - that created havoc and suffering to such an extent that a federal judge ordered swift reunification.

Quote from: Skarg;1056924I've no idea or real desire to know what kick you're on that has you think that's a relevant thing to say about ME. It rather makes sense to me. When foreign police have you in a cell for technical VISA violation, you'd be unwise to want people to be starting riots on your behalf.

Right, because I make one post on this thread, after you and the other chucklefucks have made how many?
How often do I chime in on anything political here?
Oh look, someone's pointing out how annoying this is and disagrees with you - better try to gang up on me!
You guys aren't doing your "position" any favors by behaving this way.

Before you start being a touchy little bitch who can't take it about this, you may want to start off by not calling posters you disagree with "chucklefucks".

Quote from: jeff37923;1056948Before you start being a touchy little bitch who can't take it about this, you may want to start off by not calling posters you disagree with "chucklefucks".

Its Skarg. What do you think will happen. Alot of his posts lately have just been these drive-by insults.

Quote from: trechriron;1056937I originally read the title as "Three D&D artists retained by ICE" and thought to myself - Iron Crown Enterprises is leveling up RMU!!

Don't be ridiculous. This is no place for discussing gaming-related happenings!:p

Quote from: sureshot;1056925While I agree with you they should not have been put in a cell. They should have made sure all their paperwork was in order. Which you and some other refuse to acknowledge. Then again not surprised. How dare we ask that people act responsibly.

I don't refuse to acknowledge that they should've done the paperwork right. Yes, and this IS what can happen when border security finds something wrong. I never made any attempt to deny that.

I just also think that when looked at from the point of view of someone with the authority to change the policy, this is a couple of game artists coming for a meeting which has no material impact on anything, and in fact they're contributing by getting lodging & food & whatever. Assuming it's an honest mistake and has no negative impact, but it will mess not just with them but will cause a lot of waste and upset all around, including annoying a lot of people and causing bad press, effectively for nothing, then my view is this policy looks very bad and like it should be changed.

The last few times I went to Europe, customs & immigration there was a perceptive-looking person looking at me and my passport for 10-20 seconds, maybe asking a question, and choosing to walk through a very short passage from baggage claim to the street that had "nothing to declare" painted on it. It felt very civilized and welcoming.

Quote from: Omega;1056952Its Skarg. What do you think will happen. Alot of his posts lately have just been these drive-by insults.

Looking at my post history, which posts do you think were drive-by insults?

Quote from: Skarg;1057051I don't refuse to acknowledge that they should've done the paperwork right. Yes, and this IS what can happen when border security finds something wrong. I never made any attempt to deny that.

The last few times I went to Europe, customs & immigration there was a perceptive-looking person looking at me and my passport for 10-20 seconds, maybe asking a question, and choosing to walk through a very short passage from baggage claim to the street that had "nothing to declare" painted on it. It felt very civilized and welcoming.

Shockingly, that's what happens when you have your shit together. Your experience would likely have been different if you had something wrong with your paperwork.

Quote from: Skarg;1057054Looking at my post history, which posts do you think were drive-by insults?

"Chucklefucks".

Libertarians wanted to abolish ICE before it was cool.
Just sayin'.

JG

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1057075Shockingly, that's what happens when you have your shit together. Your experience would likely have been different if you had something wrong with your paperwork.

Yeah - I just went through Chinese immigration (hardly a bastion of freedom) and it was not a big deal. But - I made sure to get my visa in order first.  (Though I did have to check in at the local police station the next day to tell them where I was staying - which was annoying.)

Quote from: Skarg;1057051The last few times I went to Europe, customs & immigration there was a perceptive-looking person looking at me and my passport for 10-20 seconds, maybe asking a question, and choosing to walk through a very short passage from baggage claim to the street that had "nothing to declare" painted on it. It felt very civilized and welcoming.

You can have that experience coming into the United States as well. A lot depends on how you present yourself, and it also depends on the number of problems that typically happen at a particular port.

Quote from: Lynn;1057260You can have that experience coming into the United States as well. A lot depends on how you present yourself, and it also depends on the number of problems that typically happen at a particular port.

Yep, or the opposite experience in Europe, as I did despite having paperwork "in order". The underlying suggestion that the U.S. is Moar Badd than every other country in this regard is just, well, uninformed.

Quote from: Zalman;1057261Yep, or the opposite experience in Europe, as I did despite having paperwork "in order". The underlying suggestion that the U.S. is Moar Badd than every other country in this regard is just, well, uninformed.

It's willful ignorance. The US has to be the worst to futher their worldview.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1057362It's willful ignorance. The US has to be the worst to futher their worldview.

Which is both naive and a scary worldview to take imo. When it's proven that their are factually worse places in the world. Trying being transgendered, gay or a feminist in some of those countries then get back to me.

Quote from: sureshot;1057400Which is both naive and a scary worldview to take imo. When it's proven that their are factually worse places in the world. Trying being transgendered, gay or a feminist in some of those countries then get back to me.

Mandatory placement with a Boko Haram militia would clear up a lot of the confusion in a hurry.  I feel like the Dead Kennedy's had a song that fits this perfectly if a little old fashioned.

Quote from: James Gillen;1057102Libertarians wanted to abolish ICE before it was cool.
Just sayin'.

JG

Yes, but Libertarians also want to abolish the welfare state. And those two things are connected. Really, in an ideal world visiting artists that were doing a job for a gaming company and weren't going to be a massive drain on the state should be able to come and go as they please, but that depends on a situation where you won't end up with huge masses of people migrating to whatever state gives them the best benefits for doing no work.

Quote from: trechriron;1056937I originally read the title as "Three D&D artists retained by ICE" and thought to myself - Iron Crown Enterprises is leveling up RMU!!

I have to admit this made me LOL.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1057711Yes, but Libertarians also want to abolish the welfare state. And those two things are connected. Really, in an ideal world visiting artists that were doing a job for a gaming company and weren't going to be a massive drain on the state should be able to come and go as they please, but that depends on a situation where you won't end up with huge masses of people migrating to whatever state gives them the best benefits for doing no work.

Are you saying that if we had no welfare state, we wouldn't have them damn illegals coming here for our welfare? ;)

jg

If we're gonna wank about welfare states and illegals, can we please move this thread to Pundency?

I'm happy to join in the spank and wank, but this thread isn't really about WotC's screwup anymore.

Off topic a moment but "what wellfare?" They practically yanked parts of it from people a few years back where I live.

Back on topic.

So what happened? I do not see any news following up on it? I assume they were just sent home and WOTC went "oops sorry!" if even that. Business as usual at customs since this was SOP and nothing to get worked up about other than that someone goofed up. Either the artists or WOTC.

It was another nontroversy that the Left tried to make into a thing.  Nothing to see, nothing to see.

Quote from: James Gillen;1057820Are you saying that if we had no welfare state, we wouldn't have them damn illegals coming here for our welfare? ;)

jg

Yes, that's just what I'm saying. However, let's not keep veering off topic from this specific case. These people were not here to collect welfare. They were here to work, and WoTC fucked up by doing the wrong procedure.