Lately I've become intrigued by various ultra-light D&D-style games where the entire rules are only a few pages long.  Games like Searchers of the Unknown, 1974 Style, Here is Some D&D, and Venger's Crimson Dragon Slayer D20 Revised.

Searchers of the Unknown
1974 Style
Here Is Some D&D
Crimson Dragon Slayer D20 Revised

These light systems seem to be ideal for one-shots, but has anyone here ran them for a longer campaign?  Something the size of a Keep on the Borderlands mini campaign?  Or using them with other old TSR modules of similar size, such as The Lost City or Isle of Dread?

I'm basically wondering how robust these lightweight games are, when running them with something more than just a one-shot.

Dungeons Without Love or Imagination

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1146166Dungeons Without Love or Imagination

LOL, that's a good one.

For me, OD&D is light enough already -- especially if you stick to the box and don't include the supplements.

I think if you make a game too light then it does lose its appeal for long campaigns. I've been able to run OD&D campaigns for years, so the depth of rules worked well for me. What's the advantage of going ultra-light?

I played TWERPS a few times; the concept of something so mechanically simple is appealing as it's easy to run, but it also is rather boring, to be honest. One of the reasons I don't particularly care for T&T combat...just a little too simple.

Looking at that Searchers of the Unknown game, why even bother? You could just run a purely narrative-based game with DM fiat.

Quote from: Brad;1146177Looking at that Searchers of the Unknown game, why even bother? You could just run a purely narrative-based game with DM fiat.

Except SotU provides a framework and rules, it's not fiat. It's mathematically equivalent to AD&D's basic combat mechanic, just converted to a roll-under system, with the interesting twist that it can be used as a stunt mechanic as well.

SotU has also inspired numerous riffs and expansions. There are literally dozens of variants for different genres, including some that expand the basic system to include the more traditional range of classes and abilities, like the Refired version.

I find it most useful for pickup games. Either SotU or Target 20 are trivial to run from memory, and can be expanded however you want because they're compatible with old school D&D in general, so you can just steal whatever you want from wherever.

Most systems, once you have the major mechanics in hand, can be boiled down to just a few pages of reference tables and quick look-ups.

The bulk of the material is usually equipment/feat/spell/monster lists.

If you put hard restrictions on gear, feats, spells, and monsters, I think almost all systems can be pretty light.

Just cutting magic out of even 5e, keeping levels low, and playing it low fantasy, can be pretty fast and light.

Sorry, another thought that just occurred to me about the difference between rules light games and others, is that massive fleshed out systems, like 5e and other major players, is just the sheer volume of 'promise' offered by all the extra fluff.

Much of what makes things 'light' is the simple fact you don't have 100 extra pages of distracting inspiration of 'look at all these things my character could be and do!'

When you take away all those idiosyncratic class and feat mechanics, things can get real simple, real fast.

Quote from: finarvyn;1146170For me, OD&D is light enough already -- especially if you stick to the box and don't include the supplements.

I think if you make a game too light then it does lose its appeal for long campaigns.

This mirrors my own opinion. Every time I've tried running a truly "ultra light" game I end up building it out by adding house rules (or at the very least, consistent rulings that mirror formal house rules), anyway. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I figure it's better to start off with a rule set that pretty closely matches your desired level of complexity, right off the bat. On the other hand, it can also be good to start with a basic foundation and build your own additions on top of it, if that's what you're going for. Depends on what you want to do.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1146187This mirrors my own opinion. Every time I've tried running a truly "ultra light" game I end up building it out by adding house rules (or at the very least, consistent rulings that mirror formal house rules), anyway. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I figure it's better to start off with a rule set that pretty closely matches your desired level of complexity, right off the bat. On the other hand, it can also be good to start with a basic foundation and build your own additions on top of it, if that's what you're going for. Depends on what you want to do.

+1

I wish this forum had a way to upvote posts.

Swords & Wizardry: White Box (aka, the retroclone of OD&D) is as light as I feel is viable for a campaign, and even there, I houserule up the ying-yang (but I love to tinker). Tunnels & Trolls works for one shots, but I didn't find it worked for campaigns which bummed me out because I love the core concepts.

I've run a couple MicroLites at conventions. They are very good for one shots where you want the players to have the rules. However, I've never tried a Microlite beyond a con game. Unsure how they'd do longer term.

I highly agree with Philotomy that a very light system is a GREAT place to start to build your own tailored game. The Microlites are very easy to houserule which I find a bonus, and there's two dozen of them now so you can pick whatever is dialed best to your needs.

Quote from: Pat;1146182Except SotU provides a framework and rules, it's not fiat. It's mathematically equivalent to AD&D's basic combat mechanic, just converted to a roll-under system, with the interesting twist that it can be used as a stunt mechanic as well.

SotU has also inspired numerous riffs and expansions. There are literally dozens of variants for different genres, including some that expand the basic system to include the more traditional range of classes and abilities, like the Refired version.

I find it most useful for pickup games. Either SotU or Target 20 are trivial to run from memory, and can be expanded however you want because they're compatible with old school D&D in general, so you can just steal whatever you want from wherever.

Fair enough, but why not start with something a little more robust and houserule it? If I have to add my own classes, etc., I'd rather just start with S&W or something and have a better basis to do that.

Yeah, some people find it easier to modify existing stuff and others find it easier to start with a blank slate, or at least a mostly blank slate.  For me, it depends on a lot of different factors and exactly what I'm going to change.  I'd never run anything that light for more than a single session without supplementing it one way or the other.  

Frequently, though, if I'm going that blank slate, the reason is that I'm changing something fundamental about how the game is put together.  Thus, any of the micro games is unlikely to be a good starting point for me.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1146166Dungeons Without Love or Imagination

I downloaded the images of the 2 page rule set.  It's a cool spin on the hobby.  Why not?  It ought to create some laughter, in today's miserably mixed-up world.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1146229Yeah, some people find it easier to modify existing stuff and others find it easier to start with a blank slate, or at least a mostly blank slate.  For me, it depends on a lot of different factors and exactly what I'm going to change.  I'd never run anything that light for more than a single session without supplementing it one way or the other.

I tend to draw my material from heterogeneous sources, so I find a blank slate (or more properly, a brief slate) provides a better baseline. It's easier to start with a sparse framework and then add cruft as needed, than it is to start with a heavier ruleset and then subtract, because that forestalls the "but it's in the book!" type of thinking. It's also akin to the bottom up method of setting design, where you start with a dungeon and town, then only develop the wider world based on the players' interests, maybe a session or two ahead. Same applies to rules -- to start a campaign, all you really need are the core rules, the classes the players are interested in, a few monsters, and then you can add more options later, as new situations come up. This also makes it easier to customize the game, because, for instance, it's hard to come up with a complete suite of balanced and distinct classes, but conversely, it's pretty easy to develop a single class to suit a particular player's specific interests. If they're already written and off-the-shelf, then they'll never be quite as targeted or unique.