Quote from: Abyssal Maw;398391It really is out our hands and they make it look like it's "our" award.

While I disagree, for obvious reasons , what could we to do "get it back into your hands"?

Quote from: reveal;398398While I disagree, for obvious reasons , what could we to do "get it back into your hands"?

Ditch judges.

Quote from: One Horse Town;398400Ditch judges.

Last year, there were roughly 220 products submitted. Each judge had to read approximately 40,000 pages of text and listen to approximately 45 hours of podcasts.

Knowing that, how would ditching judges help anything? If we listed all 220 products and told people "have at it," would any of them take the time to get to really know a product before voting for it?

When the ENnies first started, there were few enough submissions to make that feasible. Currently, it's not.

Quote from: reveal;398402Knowing that, how would ditching judges help anything? If we listed all 220 products and told people "have at it," would any of them take the time to get to really know a product before voting for it?

How many do even with the shortlist? Especially as half of them are virtually unknown outside of 50 people.

Let the people decide, not some message board wannabe personalities.

Quote from: reveal;398402listen to approximately 45 hours of podcasts.

After doing the math it was over 70 hours.  That 45 hours was a very rough estimate that was tossed out before I actually did the math.  RPG Public Radio's actual play submission was six hours for the required episode (not counting the other two episodes we listened to from them) while most other podcasts averaged 1 - 1.5 hours per episode.  The shortest podcast was around 10-15 minutes/episode, so it helps the average a little but it was still a lot of hours spent listening to those shows.

We had 22 podcasts submitted and we listened to three episodes from each.  Even at one hour per episode as an average that puts us at 66 hours.

Quote from: reveal;398402Last year, there were roughly 220 products submitted. Each judge had to read approximately 40,000 pages of text and listen to approximately 45 hours of podcasts.

Knowing that, how would ditching judges help anything? If we listed all 220 products and told people "have at it," would any of them take the time to get to really know a product before voting for it?

When the ENnies first started, there were few enough submissions to make that feasible. Currently, it's not.

I really do commiserate that this is a tough thing that you want to accomplish, but the problem is that things are submitted at all. Why not have an open nomination from the community, locked to verified and non-puppeted accounts, pick the top things in each category that get nominated and then instead of voting on judges, we actually get a paragraph about each thing submitted and 6 months later have everyone vote on that.

Really it might be too late. It's grown far beyond what I'm suggesting. Companies have a hand in sponsoring the event. People are wearing ties for gods sake.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;398416I really do commiserate that this is a tough thing that you want to accomplish, but the problem is that things are submitted at all. Why not have an open nomination from the community, locked to verified and non-puppeted accounts, pick the top things in each category that get nominated and then instead of voting on judges, we actually get a paragraph about each thing submitted and 6 months later have everyone vote on that.

Actually, every single product is posted on the site for people to get to know. There is an updated list of submissions that is posted on the ENnies blog with links to said products so people can learn about them. If people want, they can watch the page and, when it's updated, they can learn about products that publishers and fans have submitted.

So it essentially accomplishes the goal you're looking for. Instead of people just saying "you should check it out; it's cool," you get publishers submitting product for people to look at. In that respect, I believe it's easier for people to learn about new products because the most vocal fan base isn't trying to cram their products down peoples throats to be posted but, rather, the publishers themselves, big or small, and the fans who make free products are saying "we think you'll like our product; here, take a look" and people can do just that.

QuoteReally it might be too late. It's grown far beyond what I'm suggesting. Companies have a hand in sponsoring the event. People are wearing ties for gods sake.

The ENnie Awards is growing every year and becoming more of an industry award as opposed to simply a handful of people choosing stuff they think is cool. We make every effort to keep the fans involved and, really, it is in the fan's hands. They're the ones who vote for the products and they're the ones who vote in the judges. It's like voting for the town mayor; you elect the person you think will do the best job representing you. While you know he/she isn't going to tell you everything that is going on behind the scenes, you know that he/she shares your same values and will do things accordingly.

But we go a step further. Yes, the judges only present you with 5 nominees in each category, but that doesn't stop the fans from visiting the site every now and then to get a look at all of the submissions and learn more about them.

Quote from: reveal;398420Yes, the judges only present you with 5 nominees in each category, but that doesn't stop the fans from visiting the site every now and then to get a look at all of the submissions and learn more about them.

The judges aren't taste-makers, though. I looked over the last few bunches. I wouldn't trust most of these guys & gals to pick cotton on my behalf, let alone games. What we have right now is the producers and companies submit products and then the judges pick them. Actual gamers? Waay at the tail end of the process and I'm not real sure they matter that much. What I find especially cynical is that people see the ennies as a perceived way to "reach" D&D players as if they need to be brought out of primitivity.

An easy test is if a game wins best something.. (best anything,, best whatever)  and by next year we've already forgotten it? It's time to rethink the process.

I realize that there's money and time and a lot of emotion wrapped up in this whole ennies thing-  and I'm just some random jerk from the internet and all, but please think about it anyway.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;398424The judges aren't taste-makers, though. I looked over the last few bunches. I wouldn't trust most of these guys & gals to pick cotton on my behalf, let alone games. What we have right now is the producers and companies submit products and then the judges pick them. Actual gamers? Waay at the tail end of the process and I'm not real sure they matter that much.

You'd be surprised. I read many threads/blog posts across the interwebs that are very happy to see who wins and are also glad to hear about new products they've never heard of previously and want to learn more about.

QuoteWhat I find especially cynical is that people see the ennies as a perceived way to "reach" D&D players as if they need to be brought out of primitivity.

I've actually never heard that before. I think the ENnies has moved far beyond the realm of just being about "D&D."

QuoteAn easy test is if a game wins best something.. (best anything,, best whatever)  and by next year we've already forgotten it? It's time to rethink the process.

That's the way it goes with any awards in any field. It's human nature. "What have you done for me lately?" Honestly, no matter what we do, there will be people who will always think that way. There's nothing we can do to satisfy them so I'm not going to try to please them; there are too many people who don't think that way that I want to please.

QuoteI realize that there's money and time and a lot of emotion wrapped up in this whole ennies thing-  and I'm just some random jerk from the internet and all, but please think about it anyway.

Of course I'll think about it. And I am genuinely interested in what you think. If I didn't care what people thought, or suggestions they have, I wouldn't post on RPG sites. I would sit in my mom's basement and twiddle my Cheeto stained fingers while plotting my total control of the RPG industry via the ENnies.

Quote from: reveal;398427And I am genuinely interested in what you think. If I didn't care what people thought, or suggestions they have, I wouldn't post on RPG sites.

Stop making excuses for your mates running for judge who got caught cheating? Just a thought.