So,
The week before last I attended a UK army firing day, it's part of the officer training, cadets are shown live firing exercises on a weapon by weapon basis and on a joint task force basis to familiarise themselves with their future tools. I think the intent may be to give them some respect for the ordnance before letting them loose with live firing training directly.
We saw snipers, small arms combined fire, helicopter gunships, aerial bombing raids, mortar fire and a variety of ground to ground missile fire and tank weaponry.
It was all very impressive, rather intimidating given the sheer impact but impressive. A tank by the way when firing gives so much backpressure that even wearing ear protective muffs and in-ear sound dampeners it is bloody loud - plus it makes your intestines vibrate from the force.
Anyway, more on that later, as it is quite relevant to gaming with modern weaponry, but what struck me was that few contemporary rpgs really reflect this stuff at all well. By well I don't necessarily mean detailed rules, just rules that reflect even in a descriptive way how this stuff works.
And autofire and burst fire, the latter being the normal mode for most rifles these days in rpgs as best I can tell, are complex and a pain to administer.
So, are there exceptions? What games get right the feeling of modern military hardware? Anyone any thoughts?
I've often considered what you're talking about here, especially when I've played with idiots who thought their characters could fire two Desert Eagle 50 cals - one in each hand - with any degree of accuracy.
That being said, I don't know of too many games that handled this sort of thing well. Maybe Twilight 2000?
I've always heard that Phoenix Command was a real stickler for realism, but I've never played it.
T-Willard has a lot of nice things to say about the Blood & Guts series of d20 supplements from RPGOBJECTS, but I don't have any experience with them. I know one of the RPGOBJECTS guys hang out here. Maybe he can offer some advice?
I don't have any actual experience with firearms, but my brother has, and we've talked a lot about the topic relating to RPGs
My brother says that full realism is not going to happen. Having said this, hes quite happy with BRP and WoD systems. He says that, if the GM really takes into account environmental modifiers (light, smoke, and the like, that many GMs ignore), they are verisimile (sp?) enough.
Generally speaking, he thinks that, the most a systems boasts about its realism, the most chances are that the system is actually a crock of shit.
You're probably right, Imperator.
I'm not the biggest stickler for that sort of thing, I just try to draw the line at egregiously stupid.
Oh, and if ever you end up in my neck of America, look me up. We'll go out to the firing range for a baptism by gunpowder. :D
I'm cool with that :D
I'm not a big fan of firearms, but I am not specially against them. My interest in them comes only from gaming, but having a brother in the marines (he served for 8 years, and now is bodyguard to a Basque politician) is quite useful ;)
Quote from: ImperatorI'm cool with that :D
I'm not a big fan of firearms, but I am not specially against them. My interest in them comes only from gaming, but having a brother in the marines (he served for 8 years, and now is bodyguard to a Basque politician) is quite useful ;)
I'm no gunbunny myself, but I enjoy shooting them on occasion.
Classic unisystem does modern firearms remarkably well. First, they do a lot of damage - a direct hit from a shotgun or high caliber rifle can and will drop regular people. There's optional rules to keep your head when being fired upon, and checks when you're actually hit to do something other than lay there screaming. With a semi-auto weapon you can fire as many times as you like, with a -1 on each shot to reflect recoil. Empty the clip in a round if you like. With burst fire, each success, rather than adding onto the base damage indicates another round hit.
Opening up on a PC with a full auto weapon is a bad, bad deal. The idea is - don't get shot :).
Quote from: mattormegI'm no gunbunny myself, but I enjoy shooting them on occasion.
Oh, I'm sure of that :) But weapons law here in Spain is a world of difference with the US, AFAIK. We have our gunbunnies here, but they usually are (a) policemen/military or (b) hunters. Just that. The idea of having a weapon at home is quite strange outside of these cases.
Quote from: mattormegI've played with idiots who thought their characters could fire two Desert Eagle 50 cals - one in each hand - with any degree of accuracy.
Just for the record, I'm the kind of idiot GM that let's players do shit like that. Not that I'm morally opposed to realistic gun rules, it's just that I'm more interested in emulating action movies rather than actual gunfire conditions.
Quote from: jrientsJust for the record, I'm the kind of idiot GM that let's players do shit like that. Not that I'm morally opposed to realistic gun rules, it's just that I'm more interested in emulating action movies rather than actual gunfire conditions.
For me, It depends on the game. I was running a gritty special ops game...at least, I was trying to. Everyone had carefully constructed military backgrounds and weapon specialties, and then this idiot comes up and wants to play a guy who carries a katana into combat and wants to be called "Wolf".
What a 'tard.
Quote from: MaddmanClassic unisystem does modern firearms remarkably well. First, they do a lot of damage - a direct hit from a shotgun or high caliber rifle can and will drop regular people. There's optional rules to keep your head when being fired upon, and checks when you're actually hit to do something other than lay there screaming. With a semi-auto weapon you can fire as many times as you like, with a -1 on each shot to reflect recoil. Empty the clip in a round if you like. With burst fire, each success, rather than adding onto the base damage indicates another round hit.
Opening up on a PC with a full auto weapon is a bad, bad deal. The idea is - don't get shot :).
Forgot about Unisystem. You're very much correct.
Quote from: mattormegFor me, It depends on the game. I was running a gritty special ops game...at least, I was trying to. Everyone had carefully constructed military backgrounds and weapon specialties, and then this idiot comes up and wants to play a guy who carries a katana into combat and wants to be called "Wolf".
What a 'tard.
I have only met one player like that in my whole life. We laughed so much that he never came back with such an idiotic concept again After laughing, we asked him something like:
'Dude, do you know of any special unit of the army who carries fucking swords to battle? And why do you think is that way?
To be honest, I don't really want Phoenix Command levels of complexity nor do I think it particularly necessary.
That's the problem, almost any rpg aiming for reflecting the real world in military stuff goes way complex, but realism is an impossible goal. What is needed is verisimilitude. Verisimilitude can be fairly simple.
So, Phoenix Command, Unisystem (though do you roll for each bullet fired in burst or autofire mode? That seems a bit odd to me), I'd be surprised if D20 handled it well but it's not impossible. But is that it?
The point here isn't being into guns, I'm not, it's where one goes if one wants a modern day system with a sense of verisimilitude which doesn't require mastering a thousand charts to resolve each shot.
Quote from: BalbinusSo, Phoenix Command, Unisystem (though do you roll for each bullet fired in burst or autofire mode? That seems a bit odd to me), I'd be surprised if D20 handled it well but it's not impossible. But is that it?
GURPS isn't all that bad. Definitely enough damage, armor piercing isn't done badly, either. Interlock can get chart-heavy. Small charts, though ;)
Kult had lots of gun pictures ;)
I have experience with everything from revolvers to machine guns and rockets (including silenced sub-machine guns and assault rifles). This is because I was in the army (plus some experience) and not because I am a firearms wizard who is an expert on guns. I think GURPS does a decent job.
The thing I like about GURPS is how the damage done by weapon varies widely--assault rifles are far more likely to produce a pile of bodies than a 9mm. However: this isn't "realism," it's "meeting my expectations" (or maybe "versimilitude"). I've read some of the gun-porn about stopping power and the arguments about various bullet types and the vicious back-and-forth debate and I have no idea how the physical qualities of a bullet relate to mortality in more than a general sense.
So I like GURPS which, to me, conveys that "decent sense" more than Hero which seemed (at least Hero 3rd) a bit flat (a karate chop, .44, and assault rifle all do about 2d6 KA).
Also things like Snap Shot that force you to aim (but really just force so high a weapon skill that you don't have to aim, IIRC) are pretty good. Finally, having done combined-arms live-fire exercises (CALFX), I think that the psychological element of combat is:
(a) under-represented in games
(b) might not be so fun to do with rules unless they were really, really good*
-Marco
* and by "good" I, of course, mean meeting my arbitrary standard.
Quote from: MarcoFinally, having done combined-arms live-fire exercises (CALFX), I think that the psychological element of combat is:
(a) under-represented in games
(b) might not be so fun to do with rules unless they were really, really good*
That's the problem with all RPG combat. Doing nothing in a combat round isn't really an option. It's not like melee combat is all hacking and slashing, too. You try to find a weak spot, you circle around, you try to catch your breath.
But when you codify this in a rule system, why should I just stand around? There's only so much gloating you can do...
Burning Wheel has a little bit too much hesitation, if you ask me.
The Dark Eye rules use "Courage" as a stat to determine your initiative. That didn't work out all that bad...
The burst autofire rule in the StarCluster System has you making one roll to hit. For each bullet after the first, you add 10 to the original roll, and if it still is under the TN, it hits also. So if your TN is 65, and you roll a 20, all three shots will hit at 20, 30, and 40, If you roll a 47, two shots will hit at 47, 57, and 67. If you roll a 60, one shot will hit at 60, 70, and 80.
Weapon damage is set by a modifier, say +15 for a submachine gun or pistol. Damage is always %d+modifier, so the huge random factor in damage does two things - it allows a sort of hit location by damage, and it allows for the fact that sometimes one bullet will bring a man down, while another time you may need four or five.
With the initiative system allowing you to simulate aim or its lack - by going slower than your roll, you can boost your TN or your damage roll by the same amount, by going faster you take rush your shot and take a penalty to your TN or your damage - you have a fair amount of verisimilitude with a simple system.
That was my goal, at any rate. :D
-clash
I'm reading Cold Space in preparation of a review, and I'm with you on this one, Clash. It's damn good.
Oh, by the way, since we're talking about the psychological aspect of combat, I have to give my vote of approval to Twilight 2000's Coolness Under Fire system. Green fighters tend to "freeze" when bullets start whizzing over head, this gets better with time.
Quote from: MarcoThe thing I like about GURPS is how the damage done by weapon varies widely--assault rifles are far more likely to produce a pile of bodies than a 9mm. However: this isn't "realism," it's "meeting my expectations" (or maybe "versimilitude").
QFT.I think that's the key right there: do the rules meet your expectations of modeling a firefight in a way that seems realistic and 'crunchy' enough
to you personally?
me, i don't want charts on windage, zeroing, etc. Some people do, but i
suspect those type of people would be better served on the range as opposed to the gaming table.
Quote from: BalbinusUnisystem (though do you roll for each bullet fired in burst or autofire mode? That seems a bit odd to me)
No, you roll a single roll.
Unisystem's central mechanic is a single d10, plus your ability plus your skill. These usually range from 1-6 for normal humans. A 9 is required for a basic success. There's a chart that shows how many successes the roll gets if you roll higher than that. Its 1 success for every 2 over for the first few levels then goes up to 3 at (IIRC)4 or 5 successes.
When you fire a single shot round, you do an amount of base damage for the type of weapon, with a bonus for the number of successes. (I usually steal Cinematic's rule that it's one point per level, simpler that way). So let's say I have a pistol that does 16 damage. I have a 3 in dex and a 4 in my gun skill and there's no other modifiers. I roll the d10 and roll a 6. 6+3+4=13, three successes on the chart. So I do 16+3=19 damage with the shot. Against a living target this is doubled to 38.
Now lets say we have a submachine gun that does the same damage. I make the exact same roll and get three successes but this time I'm firing a three shot burst. With three successes, rather than giving me a bonus on damage each indicates another round hit. The target was hit by three rounds, so they take 16x3=48 damage, again doubled to 96 against a living target. Given that normal humans have 30-50 life points, getting shot with a machine gun hurts. :)
Most systems in an attempt at balance makes full auto or burst fire actually worse. Machine guns aren't balanced, I don't have a problem with this. These rules make using burst fire a really good idea most of the time. There's times when it isn't better - you can't target body areas (kind of important in a zombie game), you go through ammo faster, and you can't make aimed shots.
Did anyone ever succeed in running a rather violent Aftermath campaign? I'm working in IT, and even I get afraid of the flowchart...
Quote from: SosthenesDid anyone ever succeed in running a rather violent Aftermath campaign? I'm working in IT, and even I get afraid of the flowchart...
haha holy crap, forgot about that...yeah, no i never even managed to run the damn thing. (much like The Morrow Project...E-Factor, Blood Types...WHAAAA?!? i think we ended up using AD&D's system to run Liberation at Riverton. so, were we the first to do AD&D Modern??) ;)
I quite like rolemaster modern. It's pretty chart intensive, but only in a "read the number of the relevant column" sense. If that's a trade you're willing to make then its nice - a lot of differentiation, suitably deadly results, pretty good modelling of modern armour, single rolls for autofire against single targets, simple enhanced ammunition rules....