Quote from: Blackhand;523021In fact I think anyone who talks about 40k or Warhammer in general is asanine when they talk about 1st Edition or Rogue Trader.  Especially when that person is not a wargamer.

Yeah, you've voiced your idiotic/arrogant 'I am King of 40K' nonsense before. Seems like an 'assinine' stance to me.

Quote from: Blackhand;523060Really?

Lets go with Magic, to begin with.  I'm not doing this with you, though.

Door's to your upper right corner, if you have a problem with me.

........................................................................................................

We want to talk gonzo?

We don't need to go further then covers.

1e's Trollslayer.

Pretty normal dwarf, "Dwarven Punk"


2e's Trollslayer.

Lord Buffy McBuffmuscle


And while at the covers, look at the bloody lightsaber the wizard's wielding, compared to the bloody scroll of 1e.

Quote from: Rincewind1;523122We want to talk gonzo?

Quote from: Urban Dictionarygonzo

1) Crazy, madcap, unwieldy, or anarchistic.

2) A perticular style of journalism used most famously by writer Hunter S. Thompson in the 60s and 70s, in which the journalist becomes a part of the action. A natural extension of Tom Wolfe's "New Journalism", Based upon the idea that fiction and journalism are both a means to the same end, and that the best journalists have always known this.

3) A blue character on the Muppets with a very phallic nose.

4) A style of first-person pornography, from the view of the camera operator.

There were people running around everywhere, it was pure gonzo!

I'm fairly sure Pundejo is going with #1 here.

Regarding WFRP, I thought we had settled on 2e for rules and 1e for setting. Silly me...

I am firm in my opinion that 2e of WFRP certainly, and 40k in some aspects (there may be less Monty Python-esque jokes, but there are more bizarrewtf things) are more gonzo then the old one.

We're talking here about ships holding 200k people, entire planets devastated as simply bigger version of witch burning, and a dead corpse of an Emperor - God which is fighting off dark powers with his half - dead brain. Not to mention that Empire itself is basically nothing more then a rough (often forced) alliance of 1000000 and 1 cultures, ranging from pudding lovers (if you desire so) throughout the Judge - Dredd style Hive Worlds to the worlds where a Predator would feel right at home. It is simply more Grimdark and less Black Humour version of Gonzo (And honestly - as demonstrated by first example, some of that humour cutting might had been for the better. Pudding cultists are fun though).

Just read the bloody description of the worlds in DH, RT, DW or BC and tell me they aren't pretty chaotic. Just because you are more likely to find a cannibalistic culture of former rich decadents rather then pudding cultists does not mean that the setting is any less chaotic or unpredictable because of that.
The universe is just as crazy, madcap, unwieldy and anarchistic, if not moreso, then old Rogue Trader. And mostly because it tries to pass off as "srs stuff" - which I can somewhat understand. Old RT was more of a joke game - nobody expected 40k to triumph over WFB at the time.

PS. Warhammer 1e for the setting AND the rules.

Quote from: danbuter;523011If someone tried to use Obiwan Sherlock Clouseau in a game I ran, I'd make him rename the character.

Depends on the game I'm running.

I'm actually OK with gonzo (defined as above, "crazy, madcap, anarchic", i.e. everything goes), even when it's played for laughs. I just think "silly gonzo", especially of the self-aware, pop-culture-referencing, oh-so-clever variety (e.g. Doctor McNinja, the above cited Obiwan Sherlock Closeau, and the ever-present ninjas vs. pirates vs. dinosaurs vs. robots vs. zombies thing) gets old real fast. Which is why, if I'm ever running a game with Obiwan Sherlock Closeau, it's going to be a beer-and-pretzels one-shot, or a mini-campaign at best.

"Serious gonzo" -- throwing together a bunch of disparate stuff and seeing what happens -- is more my cup of tea. Hell, Rifts is still one of my top 5 RPGs.

Quote from: Rincewind1;523149We're talking here about ships holding 200k people, entire planets devastated as simply bigger version of witch burning, and a dead corpse of an Emperor - God which is fighting off dark powers with his half - dead brain. Not to mention that Empire itself is basically nothing more then a rough (often forced) alliance of 1000000 and 1 cultures, ranging from pudding lovers (if you desire so) throughout the Judge - Dredd style Hive Worlds to the worlds where a Predator would feel right at home.

Most all that stuff was set up in the original Rogue Trader game (more of a proto-RPG, small skirmish game than modern 40K).
I suspect there are still folks at GW who think 'Obiwan Sherlock Closeau' is fun/funny, but they get shouted down at meetings.

The original Rogue Trader setting was more openly and joyfully silly than the modern retconned (corporate) version... which takes itself a bit too seriously for my taste (or maybe that just the impression I get from zealous fanboys like Blackhand).
It's kind of similar to how Mickey Mouse evolved from a fun-loving imp into a corporate logo. He went from plucking out tunes on a pig's nipples in 'Steamboat Willie' to doing... a whole lot of not much, just sort of standing there to introduce the brand. If he touched a teat these days there'd be a scandal.

Quote from: Simlasa;523157Most all that stuff was set up in the original Rogue Trader game (more of a proto-RPG, small skirmish game than modern 40K).
The original Rogue Trader setting was more openly and joyfully silly than the modern retconned (corporate) version... which takes itself a bit too seriously for my taste

Which is my problem with Warhammer 2e (not so much with 40k, as I was never invested much with it as an RPG, but I see similarities in the problem).

It's not the matter of "more or less of gonzo", but matter of grotesque, humour and irony in the works themselves. FFG's 40k is like trying to force all the humour out of 40k, while not streamlining and forcing some Logic into the setting (ffs, every building in that universe is 10 times bigger then tallest building in ours). Warhammer 2e had a similar problem for me, but not as terrible - they just tried to make the setting very - serious - in - touch - with - wargame, while trying to retain some of the humour - which ended up giving the grotesque and grimdarkian aesthetic of 2e, which for me, felt like 2e tried to dance two dances (serious Warhammer and funny Warhammer) at the same time - and it failed to do so, at least compared to 1e.

With fantasy Warhammer it's like they traded a low-fantasy dark humor for a brand of high-fantasy silliness (that is less fond of laughing at itself). The Emperor went from being an 'upper class twit' to some steroidal hero riding on a gryphon.
I wonder how much of that was marketing directed to appeal to U.S. audiences?
Similar to changes to 40K's motifs... many of which derived from 2000 AD... getting bigger, louder... to fill in where, seemingly, U.S. readers didn't quite get that Judge Dredd was intended as satire.

Quote from: Simlasa;523163With fantasy Warhammer it's like they traded a low-fantasy dark humor for a brand of high-fantasy silliness (that is less fond of laughing at itself). The Emperor went from being an 'upper class twit' to some steroidal hero riding on a gryphon.
I wonder how much of that was marketing directed to appeal to U.S. audiences?

An upper class twit doesn't sell many miniatures in a battle game.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;523237An upper class twit doesn't sell many miniatures in a battle game.

Hell, I'd buy one.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;523238Hell, I'd buy one.

I would too! Though I've got to say that I've been playing WFB Empire since 1994 and have never once used the Emperor in a game but that doesn't mean I would take a useless twit in exchange.

The longing for yesteryear on this site is sickening.

Derp.

You had me at "Abdul Goldberg."  

JG

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;523248I would too! Though I've got to say that I've been playing WFB Empire since 1994 and have never once used the Emperor in a game but that doesn't mean I would take a useless twit in exchange.

Oh please, Bretonnia's where  the bitches' at . I admit that RPG wise, I don't like the turn Bretonnia took - but I like them in Battle. Henceforth, I liked it when Battle moved on but RPG was still based on 2 - 3e of WFB.

Btw - Warhammer 2e actually had some humour in spirit of which Pundit here wishes that came back (and the humour that was not in WFRP 1e). Talking about "Obiwan Sherlock" of 2e - Luther Huss.

Quote from: Blackhand;523258The longing for yesteryear on this site is sickening.

Derp.

You know the way out. The big white "x" in the upper right corner.

Quote from: Rincewind1;523331Henceforth, I liked it when Battle moved on but RPG was still based on 2 - 3e of WFB.

The 2 and 3rd edition of WFB has Brettonians as Arthurian Knights, indeed the only book not to present them that way was the first edition of WFRP.