While some of the least accepting and friendly places seem to be the ones that claim to be the most loving and inclusive. In fact, I tend to find that the more "inclusive" a community claims to be, the more homogenous it is and the less accepting it is of anyone or anything that's too different.
I recently started looking for a new universal generic system to replace my old
GURPS obsession with. I finally settled on
Cortex Prime for reasons - mainly its modularity and flexibility - and began to chum it up with their Discord community. I'd been talking with them about modules and game mechanics and ideas - having a fairly good time, though there was a little resistance here and there when I rubbed up against some sacred cows (some people get very subtly offended for objectively silly reasons, but I digress).
So, yeah, it was going just fine, that is, until the conversation turned one day to WotC. I eventually mentioned the OSR and mentioned Pundit, Grimm, and Venger when answering some questions - and the whole place just cracked. Screaming, swearing, bigot this, Nazi that, racist this, homophobe there - so on and so forth. The regular users, the mods, and even the server owner and writer, Cam, chimed in. I didn't say much other than, "Hey, I like their stuff, I think they're pretty cool," and that was enough to for me to get screamed at and chewed out by a dozen different faces that seemingly just popped out of the woodwork for the occasion.
One particular quote from one of the users stood out to me in particular - not for hyperbole or slanderous accusation, but for its dire implications:
QuoteSo glad I missed this convo, I would've made it a thousand times worse. When it comes to RW OSR influencers like the ones mentioned, I have a lot to say. Instead, I'll just mention the Popper Paradox and point out the well-known fact that the one thing a tolerant community can't tolerate is intolerance, including those who promote it.
I really hate that approach. It destroys any sort of hope for peaceful coexistence, opting to instead ostracize and alienate people on basis of their beliefs, perspectives, or opinions - even if they're not pushed or advocated. You can't exist in these communities while holding a contravening viewpoint, because the moment it comes to light, you'll be branded and maligned, if not straight-up ejected.
I'm not telling any of you anything you don't already know all too well, but it never fails to frustrate me every time I run into it. I've tried to invest in and involve myself with several gaming communities over the years, spanning several different social media platforms and gaming forums. With scant exception, they've all ended up the same way: the moment I showed any sign of "wrong-think," my time there was effectively terminated and I had to move on to a new place. I expect that will happen with the aforementioned Cortex community as well.
I'm saying all of that to say this:
I am very appreciative of this community. Here I'm able to speak my mind and have civil and engaging discussions. I can express controversial and unconventional opinions and concepts. I'm treated exactly the way I treat people. It doesn't matter what my demographic is, what my political leaning is, what influencer I like or support, what system I use, who I voted for, or how I like my eggs cooked.
So, thanks, everyone. Thanks for this.
Thanks.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/890643086848430180/1083976681443819540/image.png)
Greetings!
*SALUTE* And, if I'm late, WELCOME! Don't be hesitant to jump into discussions and participate, FF Ninja!.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Ironically enough the Popper Paradox talks about tolerating those who resort to violence, which is the woke and not anyone who opposes them (usually).
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2023, 12:05:08 AM
Ironically enough the Popper Paradox talks about tolerating those who resort to violence, which is the woke and not anyone who opposes them (usually).
I don't really know much about it, other than the person I quoted is fairly sanctimonious, and I detest people who ultimately justify harm just because they don't like or agree with someone.
Once you decide that you don't really care if other people hate you, it's much more difficult for their words to bother you in any meaningful way. I just don't care.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2023, 12:05:08 AM
Ironically enough the Popper Paradox talks about tolerating those who resort to violence, which is the woke and not anyone who opposes them (usually).
Yeah, Popper's Paradox of Tolerance says the exact opposite of what the Woke think it says, or would like it to say. It says the one thing you can't tolerate is people who would forcibly repress speech - ie them.
Quote from: S'mon on March 11, 2023, 02:19:52 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2023, 12:05:08 AM
Ironically enough the Popper Paradox talks about tolerating those who resort to violence, which is the woke and not anyone who opposes them (usually).
Yeah, Popper's Paradox of Tolerance says the exact opposite of what the Woke think it says, or would like it to say. It says the one thing you can't tolerate is people who would forcibly repress speech - ie them.
I ran across this article (https://markmanson.net/the-paradox-of-tolerance) that seems to explain the paradox with some clarity. It's so bizarre, recognizing that people have to be wilfully and intentionally ignorant to miss it.
Or, I guess they're just looking for excuses to be dicks.
Quote from: Jam The MF on March 11, 2023, 02:16:58 AM
Once you decide that you don't really care if other people hate you, it's much more difficult for their words to bother you in any meaningful way. I just don't care.
It's just too bad that expecting the woke to understand this is dooming oneself to eternal disappointment. I figured that shit out by the time I hit high school. To be fair, I had some help in the fact that my mother was less than complimentary of me much of the time, so it was hard to get worked up about somebody I barely knew from school talking shit about me.
Quote from: FF_Ninja on March 11, 2023, 02:44:17 AM
Or, I guess they're just looking for excuses to be dicks.
That's generally where I put my money.
Quote from: Jam The MF on March 11, 2023, 02:16:58 AM
Once you decide that you don't really care if other people hate you, it's much more difficult for their words to bother you in any meaningful way. I just don't care.
My biggest problem thus far is the fact that in online communities "being hated" - or, these days, "being mildly disliked" - is enough to get you entirely barred from participation and forcibly removed - and people have the power to do it.
Unlike in real life, where people are typically a bit less brave about pushing people around and also typically have
significantly less power to do so.
So, I can adopt a devil-may-care attitude about it, but unless I can find online communities that are fair and free, I'm typically relegated to being isolated. And it's not very easy to develop real-life friendships or dig into real-life communities - at least, it isn't when you're a hermit crab / social moth hybrid like I am.
Quote from: FF_Ninja on March 11, 2023, 02:44:17 AM
I ran across this article (https://markmanson.net/the-paradox-of-tolerance) that seems to explain the paradox with some clarity. It's so bizarre, recognizing that people have to be wilfully and intentionally ignorant to miss it.
Or, I guess they're just looking for excuses to be dicks.
Actual quote from Popper here - https://giggsboson.medium.com/stop-misusing-poppers-paradox-of-tolerence-in-free-speech-debates-6f6ab4b8f0d3
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.You can see why SJWs are not so keen on Popper once they realise what he was really saying. ;D
Edit: Umbran on ENW actually told me, once I pointed this out, that we've moved on since Popper's day. We now realise that 'words are violence' and 'cause real harm' - so it's now ok/good to meet argument with force. ::)
Quote from: S'mon on March 11, 2023, 03:28:04 AM
Quote from: FF_Ninja on March 11, 2023, 02:44:17 AM
I ran across this article (https://markmanson.net/the-paradox-of-tolerance) that seems to explain the paradox with some clarity. It's so bizarre, recognizing that people have to be wilfully and intentionally ignorant to miss it.
Or, I guess they're just looking for excuses to be dicks.
Actual quote from Popper here - https://giggsboson.medium.com/stop-misusing-poppers-paradox-of-tolerence-in-free-speech-debates-6f6ab4b8f0d3
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.
You can see why SJWs are not so keen on Popper once they realise what he was really saying. ;D
Edit: Umbran on ENW actually told me, once I pointed this out, that we've moved on since Popper's day. We now realise that 'words are violence' and 'cause real harm' - so it's now ok/good to meet argument with force. ::)
Comparing Popper's full treatise with the half-assed crap I had thrown at me earlier really grinds my gears. I can't
stand intellectual laziness, especially not when it's used to prop up abusive rhetoric.
Quote from: Jam The MF on March 11, 2023, 02:16:58 AM
Once you decide that you don't really care if other people hate you, it's much more difficult for their words to bother you in any meaningful way. I just don't care.
Whatever you do in life,
someone will hate you for no good reason - and
someone will love you for no good reason. There's no sense in questioning either of those.
Now, if
everyone hates you, or
everyone loves you, then it's worth looking into.
But what we're usually looking at with these sorts of people is people who love you today and hate you tomorrow, then back again. And that's what's called "splitting" in BPD (https://www.healthline.com/health/bpd-splitting). It's disordered behaviour, and there's nothing you can do except walk away. Even the majority of psychiatrists and psychologists refuse to work with BPD patients. Even $180 for 45 minutes isn't enough to put up with their shit.
Quote from: FF_Ninja on March 10, 2023, 11:36:46 PM
While some of the least accepting and friendly places seem to be the ones that claim to be the most loving and inclusive.
Welcome to the culture war.
Quote from: FF_Ninja on March 10, 2023, 11:36:46 PM
One particular quote from one of the users stood out to me in particular - not for hyperbole or slanderous accusation, but for its dire implications:
QuoteSo glad I missed this convo, I would've made it a thousand times worse. When it comes to RW OSR influencers like the ones mentioned, I have a lot to say. Instead, I'll just mention the Popper Paradox and point out the well-known fact that the one thing a tolerant community can't tolerate is intolerance, including those who promote it.
"Well known fact"
(https://media.tenor.com/y2SZMEgFMN8AAAAM/eyeroll-robert-downey-jr.gif)
As pointed out later in this thread, the other edge of Popper's Paradox is that if a community is intolerant of intolerance, then it's intolerant and shouldn't be tolerated.
(https://media.tenor.com/MFE6UiMEpRoAAAAC/math-zack-galifianakis.gif)
As far as many of these activist types go, I always thought that this Babylon Bee article really hit the nail on the head:
https://babylonbee.com/news/powerful-protesters-spell-out-love-with-burning-homes-and-businesses/
The other thing I like about this place is that you can almost always have a disagreement with somebody and it will not carry over. Most around here are either adult enough or don't give a fuck enough to not let grudges persist.
Like anything there are exceptions, but they are a lot more infrequent around here.
Quote from: FingerRod on March 11, 2023, 08:54:03 AM
The other thing I like about this place is that you can almost always have a disagreement with somebody and it will not carry over. Most around here are either adult enough or don't give a fuck enough to not let grudges persist.
Like anything there are exceptions, but they are a lot more infrequent around here.
I strongly disagree! (Groan. I'll show myself out.)
FF_Ninja, you hit the nail on the head. The real paradox is that any community that brags about how tolerant it is, probably isn't.
As for the Popper Paradox, I've never understood it. Society is intolerant of many things. We have laws. I'm intolerant of senseless murder. I suppose that makes me a bigot. It seems like a clever word game used to confuse people.
If you're not tolerating "intolerance", then are you really tolerating anything at all, or just in a space where everyone agrees with the same thing?
This isn't even a quip or anything, I'm genuinely curious.
FF_Ninja, it's decent to cringe against the Popper Paradox but you're missing the key takeaway about the woke paradigm:
The friend-enemy distinction is the atom of all political affiliation, and all ideologies are naturally religious in their bones.
Whatever you think about Carl Schmitt he will never be wrong on that and there's no sense trying to "everyone ought to kumbaya" your way out of it.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on March 11, 2023, 09:42:40 AM
If you're not tolerating "intolerance", then are you really tolerating anything at all, or just in a space where everyone agrees with the same thing?
This isn't even a quip or anything, I'm genuinely curious.
That's the issue. People will establish what they call a "safe space" for the oppressed and marginalized, and those people will feel right at home - baggage they bring along included. Criticism and contrary opinion are viewed as intolerance - or worse, hate speech and bigotry - and are eradicated with extreme prejudice. After a while, the only people left are those that don't rock the kasbah - an echo chamber.
I mostly just described 99% of Reddit.
Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 11, 2023, 10:31:10 AM
FF_Ninja, it's decent to cringe against the Popper Paradox but you're missing the key takeaway about the woke paradigm:
The Friend-Enemy Distinction is the atom of all political affiliation, and all ideologies are naturally religious in their bones.
Whatever you think about Carl Schmitt he will never be wrong and there's no sense trying to "everyone ought to kumbaya" your way out of it.
The sad thing is that the gaming table should be a place where we can put all of that crap aside and engage our fellow man, but some people cannot table their own ideology even for that.
It's unfortunate and a missed opportunity. If the woke actually cared about bringing an end to intolerance, they'd work to bridge the gaps and build on commonalities rather than emphasize conflicts. I've had some very diverse people at my table - diverse in the truest sense of the word, including some people who were openly prejudiced and bigoted. They were allowed at the table because they chose to behave courteously and civilly. In the end, a lot of those prejudices were broken off because those individuals had a chance to
actually be okay just to exist. I found out that a lot of the time prejudices and bigotry (in their truer forms) were aggravated, if not caused, by ostracization and abuse - and in the end, the shared experience broke down a lot of walls and barriers.
The woke don't know how to actually bridge gaps and solve prejudices, and in the end only serve to further the divide. All they end up doing is creating more intolerance (on both sides of the fence).
Quote from: FF_Ninja on March 10, 2023, 11:36:46 PM
...
I'm saying all of that to say this: I am very appreciative of this community. Here I'm able to speak my mind and have civil and engaging discussions. I can express controversial and unconventional opinions and concepts. I'm treated exactly the way I treat people. It doesn't matter what my demographic is, what my political leaning is, what influencer I like or support, what system I use, who I voted for, or how I like my eggs cooked.
So, thanks, everyone. Thanks for this. Thanks.
Welcome! I enjoy this community for the same reason. We've got our right wing crazies, our left wing crazies, some that are just crazy, and all the rest. And yet somehow we manage to have a good time chatting about RPGs online. I for one kinda like to have people around who disagree with me: they'll often have perspective on issues of common interest that I lack.
And on the Popper's thing. It's not really a paradox - it's just hypocrisy. The wokies tolerate those who agree with them and don't tolerate the rest, just the same as any other intolerant group. The rest is just a bunch of mental gymnastics and convolutions they use to try to lie to themselves when they're acting directly against they're professed dominant philosophical belief.
Quote from: FF_Ninja on March 11, 2023, 11:27:55 AM
The sad thing is that the gaming table should be a place where we can put all of that crap aside and engage our fellow man, but some people cannot table their own ideology even for that.
It helps when you've chosen a group from all of mankind that already shares some important values and have a desire to get on with gaming. The woke are not at core very much different, aside from their demands that everyone else must play like themselves and celebrate their politics whenever possible while doing so.
Quote
It's unfortunate and a missed opportunity. If the woke actually cared about bringing an end to intolerance, they'd work to bridge the gaps and build on commonalities rather than emphasize conflicts. I've had some very diverse people at my table - diverse in the truest sense of the word, including some people who were openly prejudiced and bigoted. They were allowed at the table because they chose to behave courteously and civilly. In the end, a lot of those prejudices were broken off because those individuals had a chance to actually be okay just to exist. I found out that a lot of the time prejudices and bigotry (in their truer forms) were aggravated, if not caused, by ostracization and abuse - and in the end, the shared experience broke down a lot of walls and barriers.
The woke don't know how to actually bridge gaps and solve prejudices, and in the end only serve to further the divide. All they end up doing is creating more intolerance (on both sides of the fence).
The hypocrisy runs deep. It's tough to ask for "tolerance" from those that preach it when it's otherwise a disingenuous ploy in their historical politics. It's baffling how they can be so enamoured with a country like Japan which had to be militarily bullied out of its isolationism by the English and the Dutch during the age of colonialism, otherwise there'd be no Japanese people in the West to be "diverse" with for the sake of their multiculturalist roleplaying groups and restaurants.
There will always be some mix of good and bad with any people, and while its good to be exposed to new ideas and perspectives, there's just no need to understand the Japanese as some sort of real life magical sea-elf (who certainly don't ever hate the Koreans) that the woke undertakes themselves to worship. I'm happy for your other friends that they shook off such a consuming hatred, that's plain not healthy. I can be hyperbolic myself, but these are the best of worse times.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 11, 2023, 12:05:08 AM
Ironically enough the Popper Paradox talks about tolerating those who resort to violence, which is the woke and not anyone who opposes them (usually).
There is no Popper paradox. If a leftist brings up Popper, the entire argument is "everyone should tolerate us no matter how much violence we do, but anyone speaking in opposition is engaging in violence by that speech and should be violently destroyed". It's not a paradox, it's just "Leftists want a reason to feed anyone who disagrees with them into the woodchipper".
If you actually run in to someone who brings that up and isn't using it as a justification for violence, oppression, blocking free speech, etc, you have two general things you can point towards. One, you can point out that a king who believes he speaks for God could make the same argument- instead of "the intolerant" leading to the destruction of "the tolerant" (how exactly Popper doesn't go into; the idea that the initiation of force by any party being the dividing line between something being acceptable or not, is not something he seems to have thought of, or more likely, not something he wanted anyone to think about), you could have "the heretical" leading to the destruction of "the orthodox". Absolutely every point of his argument lines up, and such an argument misses the exact same essential truths as Popper's argument. It's just a justification to crush those you disagree with.
Two, you can point out that what qualifies as "the intolerant" is actually a sliding scale. Simply ask the person to point to a group that should, in his view, not be tolerated. This group can be as vile as he wants. Then simply point out that the spectrum of beliefs between that point of view and something he agrees with, has valid arguments all the way over. This should demonstrate that the point of those who use that argument today is simply to justify censorship and violence against whomever they can, and tomorrow, the sliding scale of "what is intolerant" will apply to something else. If for no other reason than "X leads to Y", where you already agreed Y was an opinion whose expressors needed to be violently oppressed. This is true for any X, as you can always argue it leads to Y.
It's a garbage non-argument, and has been for nearly a fucking century.
Quote from: rytrasmi on March 11, 2023, 09:31:16 AM
As for the Popper Paradox, I've never understood it. Society is intolerant of many things. We have laws. I'm intolerant of senseless murder. I suppose that makes me a bigot. It seems like a clever word game used to confuse people.
(https://i.giphy.com/media/fs0idQwq7jQAZKfqfm/giphy.webp)
Quote from: FF_Ninja on March 10, 2023, 11:36:46 PMIt destroys any sort of hope for peaceful coexistence,
I consider THAT to be absolutely wonderful. I don't want any form of "peaceful coexistence" with woketards. Tolerating leftist asshats is how we got into the current cultural, political and global shitfest.
For all the yammering about 'hate site', the rough places can be surprisingly welcoming.
Yeah, we get in each other's faces and argue a lot. A LOT. But funny thing: the only people I've seen banned from here have been for ignoring Pundit specifically saying 'drop it', or in one case for an attempted doxing.
The former is fair enough -- it's Pundit's sandbox, after all -- and the latter, well, that guy was an idiot anyways, lol.
Quote from: FF_Ninja on March 10, 2023, 11:36:46 PM
While some of the least accepting and friendly places seem to be the ones that claim to be the most loving and inclusive. In fact, I tend to find that the more "inclusive" a community claims to be, the more homogenous it is and the less accepting it is of anyone or anything that's too different.
Screw you! get lost!
Just kidding ;D
Welcome to the RPG Site.
It is human nature to separate groups of people into US and THEM. A classic way to join "US" is to be very visible in ostracizing someone else as "THEM".
"Look at where I'm pointing, not at me."
welcome to the forums.
You want to really blow the minds of the woke? Try this phrase: "I might not like what you've said and I disagree with it, but I'll defend your right to say it."
Watch their fucking heads explode with that one!
Quote from: Jam The MF on March 11, 2023, 02:16:58 AM
Once you decide that you don't really care if other people hate you, it's much more difficult for their words to bother you in any meaningful way.
Not a skill I've ever been able to master, this, but it does have its uses.