This needs to be changed

James McMurray · February 12, 2007, 03:28:27 PM

All of them of course. If you just wanted to balance part you wouldn't say "this game" you'd say "the combat rules in this game." "In which way" would depend on the game itself. Since we're dealing with an abstract there's no way to answer that.

blakkie · February 12, 2007, 03:28:34 PM

Quote from: jgantsYeah. It's like saying you need to get your car balanced - it's understood that you mean the tires.

Oh really?

Settembrini · February 12, 2007, 03:30:01 PM

Balance is also a noun unto itself, isn´t it?

But obviously when talking about D&D I was referring to player character combat power.

Really, D&D has all those artifacts of design that serve only one purpose: balance.

Then two kinds of people raised criticism:

"It´s not realistic! Everybody can wear armour!"
They played some kind of Runequest, or Traveller.

"I want to be a hero, and want to be one right now, and not randomly generated."

They went to Champions and it´s descendants.

blakkie · February 12, 2007, 03:33:24 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayAll of them of course.

On what criteria? It's like that numbnuts Serbitar over at Dumpshock. He 'balances' this and he 'balances' that but just picking out some numbers and making sure you can put an equals sign between them. Which is exactly what you get when you think "balance" has meaning by itself or is a worthwhile goal onto itself.

James McMurray · February 12, 2007, 03:33:46 PM

nevermind, cross posted

James McMurray · February 12, 2007, 03:35:47 PM

Quote from: blakkieOn what criteria? It's like that numbnuts Serbitar over at Dumpshock. He 'balances' this and he 'balances' that but just picking out some numbers and making sure you can put an equals sign between them. Which is exactly what you get when you think "balance" has meaning by itself or is a worthwhile goal onto itself.

Just because people suck at it doesn't mean it's not a valid goal.

And again, "on what criteria" depends on the game and can't be answered in the abstract. But I think it's pretty obvious what those criteria are once you look at a game.

blakkie · February 12, 2007, 03:37:46 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayJust because people suck at it doesn't mean it's not a valid goal.

It isn't a useful goal without a purpose. Because the purpose defines the criteria. If you don't have purpose how do you pick meaningful criteria? That's why Serbitar sucks so very badly at it, he does it without any purpose whatsoever so he hasn't a fucking clue about what the criteria are.

James McMurray · February 12, 2007, 03:46:57 PM

I disagree. I think he sucks because he sucks. His purpose of "balance" is clear enough to me. I don't know how to explain it though, so I guess we're stuck on two different pages.

blakkie · February 12, 2007, 03:52:35 PM

QuoteThen two kinds of people raised criticism:

"It´s not realistic! Everybody can wear armour!"
They played some kind of Runequest, or Traveller.

"I want to be a hero, and want to be one right now, and not randomly generated."

They went to Champions and it´s descendants.

Or they said, like I did: "WTF? What is that arbitrary limitation doing in the middle of something that doesn't even have a real setting? If it was trying keep from anyone being a mage wearing plate then what kind of slacker used that sort of cheap, shortcut tactic to try patch things up?"

The answer of course was: Gary Gygax and friends, the former being the kind of guy to fudge rules while he's writing them. He is also someone that has said some *cough*interesting things about 'balance'.

blakkie · February 12, 2007, 03:57:02 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayI disagree. I think he sucks because he sucks.

Well he's German....so what ya gonna do?

QuoteHis purpose of "balance" is clear enough to me. I don't know how to explain it though, so I guess we're stuck on two different pages.

I'd explain it as "Being able to say this number is equal to that number, or there is this nice progression of some numbers in this chart here." That's it, he just looks for groups of numbers.

Calithena · February 12, 2007, 03:59:27 PM

Some wag seems to have changed the offending paragraph as follows:

QuoteOther companies have tried from time to time to produce RPGs which compete with Dungeons & Dragons, but none have had particular commercial success, and these other tabletop RPGs all combined constitute what is more or less a boutique hobby of negligible relevance. Inexplicably, after Wizards of the Coast bought the Dungeons and Dragons license from TSR, they imitated the features of these lackluster second-tier products in the new design, ensuring that the entire tabletop role-playing hobby would enter a period of nostalgic senescence. Recent designs such as Castles and Crusades, Basic Fantasy, and OSRIC have tried to rectify this situation, but without the marketing power of the WotC/Hasbro juggernaut -- and the Dungeons and Dragons name - behind them, they too have thus far found only a small, cult-like following.

James McMurray · February 12, 2007, 04:06:19 PM

Quote from: blakkieWell he's German....so what ya gonna do?

Refrain from insulting him based on his heritage?

QuoteI'd explain it as "Being able to say this number is equal to that number, or there is this nice progression of some numbers in this chart here." That's it, he just looks for groups of numbers.

I see that as his method, not his goal. It's a bad method, because there's more to overall game balance than numbers. But it's just a method. Although perhaps the method has become the goal, that happens sometimes, especially with people of a mathematical bent.

blakkie · February 12, 2007, 04:11:50 PM

@Calithena

:roofle: Is the username for the editing Gunther Kinderkampf?

blakkie · February 12, 2007, 04:14:59 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayRefrain from insulting him based on his heritage?

I declare this day "pick on the Germans day"! Hey, I know deep down they can take a joke just as well an the Polish, the Brits, and any other 3rd world nation.

QuoteI see that as his method, not his goal. It's a bad method, because there's more to overall game balance than numbers. But it's just a method. Although perhaps the method has become the goal, that happens sometimes, especially with people of a mathematical bent.

I'm pretty sure that is his goal. Which is why it's so hard for you to name his goal. EDIT: The purpose is simply to "balance it". So in the lack of any other criteria he's just looking for numbers to compare.

James McMurray · February 12, 2007, 04:18:59 PM

I can name it: balance. I can't describe it because I don't feel like writing out a long dissertation and anything I try to convince it to will fall short. Besides, if I know what I mean and don't try to explain it to you, I don't have to worry about you arguing that I don't actually know what I mean.