Isn't there a game already using that system? Esoterrorists, IIRC?

Yeah, I'm not sure it's out yet. But here is a 2-page PDF that got posted back in November.  Parts of the thrust of their direction rings true, parts give me a bit of the eebie-jeebies (and not in a good way). *shrug*

http://simonjrogers.livejournal.com/15156.html

the one thing that irks me about Esoterrorists and the GUMSHOE system is that it presupposes that I've had problems with CoC characters being stonewalled by failed investigative rolls, and the game just somehow just stops.

Point of fact is, that has never happened to me.
Sounds more like piss-poor adventure design that makes the entire progress of a scenario hinge around one clue.

I think i was more excited about this news 'til I got Esoterrorists.  The big-purple review sums it up nicely, i think.

Hrmm: According to that review the core of the bad is a fuxxored combat/healing system and "I feel like I got a preview of some later product". Substandard, nigh uncompleted, production is always a cockblock. Also it mentions a uninspired setting, which doesn't necessarily translate over since I assume the setting will be a redo.

On the otherhand "The investigation system I like quite a bit." It'll be too bad if it is buried in crap.

Quote from: blakkieHrmm: According to that review the core of the bad is a fuxxored combat/healing system and "I feel like I got a preview of some later product". Substandard, nigh uncompleted, production is always a cockblock. Also it mentions a uninspired setting, which doesn't necessarily translate over since I assume the setting will be a redo.

On the otherhand "The investigation system I like quite a bit." It'll be too bad if it is buried in crap.

I think it has potential, I'm not sure Esoterrorists entirely realised it.  I'm selling my copy but plan to buy the CoC version when it comes out.

Well, the Investigative system is, essentially, "if you have the Ability (i.e; Forensics), then you'll find the clue (i.e; a spent shell casing with the elder sign engraved on it that fell into a crack in the floor) and not have to roll any dice or spend any Ability Pool points."  
If the player opts to spend points then they can find additional information. (read: fluff, cause it won't merit anything more than the original clue.)

So, if automatic success is your cup o', then it's an awesome Investigative System.  If not...not so much.  I'm not sure if the system left me with the blah feeling, or the setting. (or lack thereof)  The Combat system is basically roll an 8 on 1d6 + Ability Pool points.

Actually, the book just made me pine for the Delta Green second printing even more...

Quote from: kregmosierWell, the Investigative system is, essentially, "if you have the Ability (i.e; Forensics), then you'll find the clue (i.e; a spent shell casing with the elder sign engraved on it that fell into a crack in the floor) and not have to roll any dice or spend any Ability Pool points."  
If the player opts to spend points then they can find additional information. (read: fluff, cause it won't merit anything more than the original clue.)

So, if automatic success is your cup o', then it's an awesome Investigative System.  If not...not so much.  I'm not sure if the system left me with the blah feeling, or the setting. (or lack thereof)  The Combat system is basically roll an 8 on 1d6 + Ability Pool points.

Actually, the book just made me pine for the Delta Green second printing even more...

See, this is the part I get confused about.  A bunch of people over at the BP seem to be praising the system as being so innovative, but I don't get what is so innovative about it.

I've never read it or anything, just saw the review.  So I have a bunch of questions that may seem stupid:

The whole thing doesn't make sense to me - what's the point of even having different ability levels?  Wouldn't the best thing to do be to put a score of 1 in every ability?  Why not just run one of those "How to Host a Mystery" games instead?

Or, couldn't I just use the current CoC rules and just not have PCs roll when clues are involved, and instead just give them the clues?  Haven't a lot of GMs taken this approach for years anyways?

Personally, I've had some of my best times when the PCs miss the clues.  It can be hilarious fun if you're not running a 100% serious game.  But I'm not opposed to the concept of getting all the clues - I just don't see what it is that this game in particular gets you.

Quote from: blakkieHrmm: According to that review the core of the bad is a fuxxored combat/healing system and "I feel like I got a preview of some later product". Substandard, nigh uncompleted, production is always a cockblock. Also it mentions a uninspired setting, which doesn't necessarily translate over since I assume the setting will be a redo.

On the otherhand "The investigation system I like quite a bit." It'll be too bad if it is buried in crap.

I played a demo of it at Dragonmeet in London last December where the book was also on sale.  I suspect that the book (which I didn't pick up) does suffer a bit becasue it essentially IS a preview of the GUMSHOE system with an x-files-ish setting slapped on.

As to the system itself, I was unconvinced.  I know it's a game about investigation but when you have a HUGE list of various different investigative skills and a tiny list of 'other stuff' it seems out of whack.  Not only that but you automatically suceed on the investigative stuff but must spend what is an extremely limited pool of points (or was in the demo anyway) to even have a chance of succeeding at anything else.  I got the impression that I would very quickly be unable to accomplish much of anything bar finding clues of various stripes.

Of course that was just a demo so take it with a pinch of salt.  It didn't sell me on the system though.

Quote from: jgants-SNIP-  Why not just run one of those "How to Host a Mystery" games instead?

Or, couldn't I just use the current CoC rules and just not have PCs roll when clues are involved, and instead just give them the clues?  Haven't a lot of GMs taken this approach for years anyways?

-SNIP-  But I'm not opposed to the concept of getting all the clues - I just don't see what it is that this game in particular gets you.

Exactly, Yes, and I Agree.

I like how they make getting the clues automatic, but now you can fail to do everything ELSE.  

So why on earth do they need to re-do Cthulhu, especially with these guys? Its perfectly fine as it is and doesn't need and entirely new syste,. The percentile one that has been used from the very start works just fine for almost everyone who has ever played it. Why change it at all?

Thanks
Frank

Quote from: FranklinSo why on earth do they need to re-do Cthulhu, especially with these guys? Its perfectly fine as it is and doesn't need and entirely new syste,. The percentile one that has been used from the very start works just fine for almost everyone who has ever played it. Why change it at all?

Thanks
Frank

Yes, change and new things are badwrongfun! :rolleyes:

Much as I love CoC (and Delta Green) I have to admit that the system feels pretty dated these days and, whilst it does the job, it isn't exactly the most stunning system ever created.

Not that I necessarily think that GUMSHOE is the answer (and as I say the demo didn't really sell the system to me particularly) but, well, I don't think you'll find many people better qualified to do a new Cthulhu version than Ken Hite and I certainly don't think it needs dismissing until I've had a chance to check it out.

Quote from: FranklinSo why on earth do they need to re-do Cthulhu, especially with these guys? Its perfectly fine as it is and doesn't need and entirely new syste,. The percentile one that has been used from the very start works just fine for almost everyone who has ever played it. Why change it at all?

They're not "changing it". Chaosium's BRP-CoC will still be there. Just like it was still there when WotC released D20-CoC. So the GUMSHOE version will be just another treatment on CoC by another company and other authors.

There's a variety of reasons for why this could work for Pelgrane and sell copies.

Unfortunately, it looks like it will be the third system for CoC that doesn't appeal to me in any way.

Quote from: Geoff HallYes, change and new things are badwrongfun! :rolleyes:

Much as I love CoC (and Delta Green) I have to admit that the system feels pretty dated these days and, whilst it does the job, it isn't exactly the most stunning system ever created.

Fuck the extremely lame  and always useless "badwrongfun" card!

He thinks the game is great as is, you think it's dated and not really a stunning system. That's it.

You can't cry "badwrongfun" every  time someone says he doesn't like a fucking game. And you certainly can't cry "badwrongfun" when two lines later you diss a game yourself.

Quote from: Geoff HallNot that I necessarily think that GUMSHOE is the answer (and as I say the demo didn't really sell the system to me particularly) but, well, I don't think you'll find many people better qualified to do a new Cthulhu version than Ken Hite and I certainly don't think it needs dismissing until I've had a chance to check it out.

Yeah, I agree with you on Ken Hite. I'm more skeptical due to Robin Laws' involvement. His CV is made up of half-baked, gimmicky games and he'll be in charge of the system. Ken Hite is mostly a (great) fluff guy and the Mythos is already covered pretty well by different sources.

Quote from: Consonant DudeFuck the extremely lame  and always useless "badwrongfun" card!

He thinks the game is great as is, you think it's dated and not really a stunning system. That's it.

See as a standard thing I might agree with you but, well, my previous experience of Franklin's posting has kinda coloured my views on his motivations.  I'm pretty sure that the objection is far more based on 'omfg, someone redoing CoC?  You can't do that!!!' than any special love of rules that he believes are utterly awesome!

Of course I could be entirely wrong about that but ~shrugs~ until Franklin tells me otherwise I'll go with what I've seen previously.

Quote from: Consonant DudeYou can't cry "badwrongfun" every  time someone says he doesn't like a fucking game. And you certainly can't cry "badwrongfun" when two lines later you diss a game yourself.

No, you can't, I said it this time because of my stated opinion on Franklin's posting as mentioned above.  I've got nothing against dissing a game, especially if you're able to back it up with WHY you dislike the game.  However, dissing the very concept of redoing an old game with a new system is just silly.

As I said I'm unconvinced that GUMSHOE is 'the answer' to CoC 'done right' (whatever that means) but I'll be willing to give it a fair shot when it appears.  On a related note I was actually rather impressed by the d20 version of CoC.  I wouldn't call it especially better than BRP but it was interesting to see an essentially classless version of d20 done by WotC, the presentation was very good and the GMing advice was absolutely stellar.

Quote from: Consonant DudeYeah, I agree with you on Ken Hite. I'm more skeptical due to Robin Laws' involvement. His CV is made up of half-baked, gimmicky games and he'll be in charge of the system. Ken Hite is mostly a (great) fluff guy and the Mythos is already covered pretty well by different sources.

As I say I'm more than happy with the mythos stuff in d20 CoC (plus, y'know, reading Lovecraft's stories) so, yeah, more fluff, whilst nice, has already been well covered.  As to Robin Law's doing the system, well, I've already noted my issues with GUMSHOE (which may or may not be cleared up be reading/playing the full game when it comes out, we shall see.)

I have a feeling that people who were raised on Unknown Armies and Delta Green rather than early CoC won't dig Hite's Cthulhu, but that the rest of us might. And that it'll fix one major issue of Esoterrorists--the bland setting.