Maybe the steepness of the power curve for D&D?

Deadlands really rocked except for some very stupid choices in how they handled their alt-history.

Quote from: RPGPundit;840050Deadlands really rocked except for some very stupid choices in how they handled their alt-history.

Yeah, I know they wanted to not turn anyone away or anything. But the whole point of the Confederacy was slavery. Saying that all of a sudden they just give up slaves is not very realistic. And cuts out the opportunity for your characters to do some anti-slavery stuff. At least, that's MY big beef with Deadlands alt-history. what's yours?

Quote from: RPGPundit;839768Elric is more identifiable, I think.

The real reason was because Chaosium planned to release Hawkmoon, Corum  and (possibly) Erekose games, and they wanted the protagonist name to feature in the title. Elric! was a better system than Stormbringer, but Stormbringer was by far the cooler and more iconic name.

While I can understand the logic, Stormbringer is different because the sword is as much of a character as Elric, and the definitive, doom-laden fantasy novel is named for the sword. So changing to Elric! was a mistake.

But there you go.

The setting of Deadlands and it's humor weren't enough to drive me off and I generally liked the rules, but I never cared for the 'bennies' or 'chip' economy because they seemed to lead to a no-risk game where no one bothered to plan or take precautions, ever. Just kick down the front door and go in blasting... throw chips at any damage taken (there's a good chance the majority of my gripes come down to how the GM was running the game).
In general I'm not a fan of games that make too much use of 'fate-points' or other mechanisms to give Players plot immunity.

While we're on the subject of Deadlands, a related question: have there been any games set in a fictional world's wild west era? I don't mean a fantasy infused alt-history, I mean a completely made up world similar to our wild west, the way 7th Sea is a made up world similar to our 17th century.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;840294While we're on the subject of Deadlands, a related question: have there been any games set in a fictional world's wild west era? I don't mean a fantasy infused alt-history, I mean a completely made up world similar to our wild west, the way 7th Sea is a made up world similar to our 17th century.

Aces & Eights

Aces & Eights is set in an alternate history time line in which the American Civil War happened ten years earlier and the United Kingdom and France assisted the Confederate States of America (CSA). The Civil War lasted for ten years and both sides ground to a halt as resources and manpower started to run low for all concerned. The Republic of Texas never had a chance to join the Union and remains neutral in the war. With the Union tied up in a war of attrition with the CSA, the "Indian Territory", modern-day Oklahoma, was able to form their own government and withdrew from the Union. Mexico still owns much of the modern day western USA, but does not have the manpower or money to govern it properly.

Quote from: Ronin;840297Aces & Eights
Aces & Eights is set in an alternate history time line...

Thank you for this suggestion, but this was the question I asked:

Quotehave there been any games set in a fictional world's wild west era? I don't mean a fantasy infused alt-history, I mean a completely made up world similar to our wild west, the way 7th Sea is a made up world similar to our 17th century.

Quote from: Michael Gray;840230Yeah, I know they wanted to not turn anyone away or anything. But the whole point of the Confederacy was slavery. Saying that all of a sudden they just give up slaves is not very realistic. And cuts out the opportunity for your characters to do some anti-slavery stuff. At least, that's MY big beef with Deadlands alt-history. what's yours?

Same as yours.

Quote from: Beagle;839009Pretty much any game with a passive defense system, which doesn't allow the defender to react in any way to an incoming attack. Yes, that includes D&D. Passive defense almost inevitably leads to boring, unengaging combats lacking the dynamic and tension of a more proactive combat system that allows dfenders to have some influence in their own fate, even if it is only roling a die and hoping for the best.
I can tolerate passive defense, if I have to, but switching to an active defense system is such a steep upgrade for any combat rules that it is definetely preferable to include those.

Likewise, any character creation system that is solely point-buy based or otherwise free of random elements can be improved significantly through the inclusion of at least some random elements, if only to destroy the idiotic delusion that the game could or should be "balanced".

I don't like passive attack systems.

There was a D20 mini game. I have it somewhere, but I can't remember it's name.  It was a D&D type world (elves, dwarves, orcs, magic, etc), but it was set in the Fantasy Wild West rather than Fantasy Medieval Europe.

Ah, found it!  It was called Spellslinger, by Fantasy Flight.

Quote from: RPGPundit;840685Same as yours.

Funny enough, when one of our resident GMs was running Deadlands, he just laughed at the setting and decreed that it's the real Wild West, post USCW, but with steam punk and cardslingers.

Quote from: Beagle;839560For active defense? I think the newer Runequest versions and Legend do it reasonably well, when a successful defense can have a direct tactical application. For an upgrade from passive to active defense, we played a lot with those during the glory days of D&D 3.5, but true to the whole rule set, these rules were quite complex. I can post them if you're really interested.To summarize: Defense works like a saving throw; characters ave fewer hitpoints at high levels; combatants can either take a penalty to attack rolls or sacrifice iterative attacks to gain defense bonuses and armor offers both an increase of defense and damage reduction.
IfI ever write yet another  D&D clone that is totally needed and not at all redundant, it would probably include similar, if significantly simplified rules.

Runequest 6 is a good choice. If you are going to have an active defense roll, it needs to meaningful; not just dividing up the probability of one roll between two. A defender in RQ is making decisions that make the extra roll worth it.

Quote from: Simlasa;840286The setting of Deadlands and it's humor weren't enough to drive me off and I generally liked the rules, but I never cared for the 'bennies' or 'chip' economy because they seemed to lead to a no-risk game where no one bothered to plan or take precautions, ever. Just kick down the front door and go in blasting... throw chips at any damage taken (there's a good chance the majority of my gripes come down to how the GM was running the game).

They patched this is a later supplement. When the game first came out, you used chips to absorbx points of damage. If you had a good number of chips, you could just charge the guy with a shotgun, knowing you could spend the points to negate the damage.

They later went to chips allowing you to make a soak roll to attempt to negate the damage. You couldn't be sure a chip would save you.

If you hate meta-currency in general, it probably won't help you, but it is less egregious.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;840294While we're on the subject of Deadlands, a related question: have there been any games set in a fictional world's wild west era? I don't mean a fantasy infused alt-history, I mean a completely made up world similar to our wild west, the way 7th Sea is a made up world similar to our 17th century.

I think this is what Owl Hoot Trail from Pelgrane Press does.

Quote from: AsenRG;841468Funny enough, when one of our resident GMs was running Deadlands, he just laughed at the setting and decreed that it's the real Wild West, post USCW, but with steam punk and cardslingers.

I've always found it a pretty easy thing to patch.

It's ironic as the original core book makes it clear that they are bending over backwards to make it so you have a version of history that makes it easy to play black characters and women who don't have to deal with historical prejudice. It just came out horribly wrong.

Quote from: RPGPundit;840858Ah, found it!  It was called Spellslinger, by Fantasy Flight.

Thank you.

Quote from: AsenRG;841468Funny enough, when one of our resident GMs was running Deadlands, he just laughed at the setting and decreed that it's the real Wild West, post USCW, but with steam punk and cardslingers.

If I were to ever run Deadlands again, I'd definitely just set it in a wild-west whose history played out like our own.