Quote from: RPGPundit on December 17, 2021, 10:26:48 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on December 17, 2021, 04:56:44 PM
In the context of Pundits comments; It is like playing a game of chess according to the traditional rules, verses people playing a game of "chess" where around moves 5-10 everyone just gets up and leaves. They then run around talking about the great game of "chess" that they just played.

Technically still "chess", but they are literally playing it wrong.

That's not a strong enough analogy.

It's more like someone claiming to be a "world traveler" because they spent a weekend in an all-inclusive resort in Cabo once, versus someone who spent two years living in India.

If someone's goal is to be properly called of "world traveller", then spending two years in India does that better.

If someone just wants to have fun, though, weekending at the resort in Cabo sounds awesome to me.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on December 17, 2021, 02:39:34 AM
I don't want to disparage anybody but could this phenomenon also be partly due to mental illness? A great many woke people complain of mental health issues and in my experience people with such issues simply don't last long in a game. Having a bunch of such players in a group will quickly make it fall apart and could explain the extremely short duration of many "campaigns".

I doubt many of the woke people who advertise their mental health issues actually suffer from them, or to the extent they claim.

More likely, they're just assholes who claim to be suffering from X for sympathy and excuses/deflections from their shit behavior.

Quote from: tenbones on December 17, 2021, 05:28:53 PM
I can steel-man this in a cynical way by simply pointing out: Why produce goods for a captive audience like old-school gamers when they're likely going to buy my stuff anyhow? See the 5e players here that complain about how WotC is destroying the brand (and hobby) yet still purchase WotC product.

I get the impression most of us stopped buying at latest mid 2018 after Mordenkainen's - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_rulebooks - basically as soon as Crawford was fully in control from mid/late 2018, most old school gamers stopped buying new WoTC material. Only new thing I bought since then was the Essentials Kit.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 18, 2021, 01:34:20 AM
I doubt many of the woke people who advertise their mental health issues actually suffer from them, or to the extent they claim.

More likely, they're just assholes who claim to be suffering from X for sympathy and excuses/deflections from their shit behavior.

I think Wokeism does tend to aggravate mental illness in those already vulnerable to it. So does social media more generally. It's a drug that makes them feel good for a moment, but makes them worse and worse in the long term.

Years of play in an immersive sandbox campaign definitely does provide something, an experience, that one shots and mini campaigns can't do. Is anyone disputing that?

Quote from: jhkim on December 17, 2021, 06:39:47 PM
Even with committed gamers, I've also had periods of more "beer and pretzel" gaming where we may play for a long time - but we don't have notebooks full of detailed background and documented episodes.

I don't think you need "notebooks full of detailed background and documented episodes" to get the experience Pundit is talking about. In fact I think those kind of 'event' games rather stand in contrast to the kind of Gygaxian-1e DMG style Sandbox Experience of regular routine playing in what becomes a 'living world'.

It's also possible to play for a long time without getting the kind of experience Pundit discusses. Eg if the GM just runs an episodic series of modules without a real 'world' or 'milieu' behind it. I've been guilty of this in the past, thinking it was 'easier' than a proper sandbox. I was wrong; the sandbox needs more prep, but it becomes self-sustaining and eventually effortless to maintain.

Quote from: jhkim on December 17, 2021, 11:26:07 PM

If someone's goal is to be properly called of "world traveller", then spending two years in India does that better.

If someone just wants to have fun, though, weekending at the resort in Cabo sounds awesome to me.

This obsession with "fun" is short sighted. People who put fun above all want instant gratification. A longer campaign is not full to the brim with fun. Sometimes there are setbacks, maybe a whole session builds tension that won't be resolved until later. That's not fun, but it can be immensely satisfying and rewarding. Eventually.

It's like any other long term endeavor. Read Moby Dick or watch the movie.

It is wrong the play only one-shots or short campaigns? Yes. Just like it's wrong to enjoy a long novel by only watching the movie. Do both? Great! Do only the instant gratification mode of play. Yeah, it's not the full experience and you are missing out.

Using your comment to make a point; not necessarily directed at you.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 18, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
This obsession with "fun" is short sighted.

This a review of The Last of Us 2 now?
This is some if the most elitist petty shit ever.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 18, 2021, 12:23:25 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 18, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
This obsession with "fun" is short sighted.

This a review of The Last of Us 2 now?
This is some if the most elitist petty shit ever.

Yeah, no kidding. This is nothing but badwrongfun bullshit at its finest. Not everyone will even find long campaigns interesting, and if pushed to play in such, that's not the better experience, it's a huge waste of their time. Playing for quick rewards is perfectly acceptable since it's just a fucking game.

Go back to playing Jenga with your RPG books because "there's no wrong way!!1!!!"

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 18, 2021, 01:50:16 PM
Go back to playing Jenga with your RPG books because "there's no wrong way!!1!!!"

There are some RPG books that really are only good for placing under the short leg of an unbalanced table. Which books are in that category is likely to vary a great deal from one player to another.

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 17, 2021, 08:37:55 AM

Quote from: Rhymer88 on December 17, 2021, 02:39:34 AM
I don't want to disparage anybody but could this phenomenon also be partly due to mental illness? A great many woke people complain of mental health issues and in my experience people with such issues simply don't last long in a game. Having a bunch of such players in a group will quickly make it fall apart and could explain the extremely short duration of many "campaigns".

How did we get a generation of mental defectives?  They didn't just develop mental health issues she to covid lockdowns, there have been these insane people for at least 5 years or more being prominent and being taken seriously.

Created by the school system and also now being either an immature fuck or a mental defective is "cool". Just look at the results you get when you tell these children in adult bodies to grow the fuck up.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 18, 2021, 01:52:56 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 18, 2021, 01:50:16 PM
Go back to playing Jenga with your RPG books because "there's no wrong way!!1!!!"

There are some RPG books that really are only good for placing under the short leg of an unbalanced table. Which books are in that category is likely to vary a great deal from one player to another.

How about the D&D 4th Edition Player's Handbook?

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 18, 2021, 01:50:16 PM
Go back to playing Jenga with your RPG books because "there's no wrong way!!1!!!"

Pretty sure there is a RPG that uses Jenga blocks as a determination system in place of dice.

Im not into storygames (though the Pundits idea on it is somewhat nebulous), and I prefer campaigns over short games. And 5e is my least favorite of all the D&D editions.

I like books over films and I think movies are my least favorite artistic medium (as in self-contained movies and not series). But I can account for my own taste and the worst I can blame others is for having a shitty or shallow taste. But everybody is shallow or has shit taste in a few respects because we don't care about everything equally.

But even with my own pretty judgemental outlook, I wouldn't call the people that enjoy crap to be having fun in the 'wrong' way.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 18, 2021, 02:15:33 PMHow about the D&D 4th Edition Player's Handbook?

4e did more mechanical experimentation and had more ambition then 5e did by fusing a bunch of systems together to fuel nostalgia pandering. Nostalgia pandering that worked well enough to get any amount of praise from the pundit even though it in vanilla format took so many design elements from 4e.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 18, 2021, 02:15:33 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 18, 2021, 01:52:56 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 18, 2021, 01:50:16 PM
Go back to playing Jenga with your RPG books because "there's no wrong way!!1!!!"

There are some RPG books that really are only good for placing under the short leg of an unbalanced table. Which books are in that category is likely to vary a great deal from one player to another.

How about the D&D 4th Edition Player's Handbook?

I have more respect for 4E than 5E now. 4E may have made some questionable decisions, but at least they were decisions based on game design rather than identity politics.